Set Reference Set Reference (Popup) Parts Reference News News (Debate)

Off-Topic / Debate / 1177

What happened?   OK, so I got used to l.0-t.d being the big time sink of the day, and now I miss it. Come on guys, say something stu^h^h^h controversial. OK, I'll start. Let's see... All homosexuals have the right to own nuclear weapons. Libertarians have all the (...) (25 years ago, 16-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) Works for me; Clinton's already in the White House... (...) Also fine by me, considering what we Implementors are told about Libertarians. ...And about the Illuminatti. ...And about the Munchkins of Zurich. ...And about Betty Crocker and the (...) (25 years ago, 16-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) Only if they can build them from Technic. (...) Except annoy non Libertarians. (...) Prove it. Post the URL to pictures or shut up, buddy. (...) Yup. perl and Java are the two worst languages ever developed, except for all the rest. (25 years ago, 16-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   Christopher, If you are *that* desperate and an antheist, I'll take you on...;-) [1] [1] mmm...although you *are* in the Bible Belt... -John (...) (25 years ago, 16-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) ^^^^^^^^ Someone who demands proof before he is willing to believe in an anthem? James (URL) (25 years ago, 16-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.fun)      Re: What happened?   (...) No puns, darnit. Not a single one. Take it to .pun or it could get ugly. <jk> (25 years ago, 17-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.fun)      Re: What happened?   (...) AUUUGH! the bible belt. been smacked with that one many a time. (25 years ago, 17-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) Er, uh, yeah. Yeah, that's the ticket. That's *just* what I meant. And I mean everything I say. Why, it was just last week that I was telling this to my wife, Morgan Fairchild, whom I've seen naked....;-) -John (...) (25 years ago, 17-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.fun)      Re: What happened?   (...) Hmm... the bible belt - notice how far away a belt is from your brain, unless your brains are located in your posterior. Why do Jerry Falwell and Jesse Helms come to mind? (25 years ago, 17-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) Yes, we all have microwaves! I can throw mine a good 20 feet. :') (...) anything. (...) Libertarianism infringes on the rights of non-libertarians. (25 years ago, 17-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) Really! This I gotta hear. Do tell. (25 years ago, 17-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) and James Brown wrote: (...) OK, so I guess that's my cue to say something like Souza was a Jewish bastard..? Have I somehow indicated that I'm an athiest, or are you reading between the lines? (25 years ago, 17-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) Posterior? It's been claimed that I think with the anterior... (25 years ago, 17-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) Duh! Non libertarians have the RIGHT to live in a society where if they conform to the majority opinion, they get to push the minorities around and steal their money to spend on stupid stuff like feeding the poor, drug subsidies, other (...) (25 years ago, 17-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) And that works for you? Sheesh. And I said homo-, not over-. (...) How about the Robins? Do you know about them? If you live someplace where robins are indiginous, I challenge you to do an experiment: go outside and locate a robin. When you (...) (25 years ago, 17-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) What, not Duplo? (...) Good point. Actually, I didn't mean in the individual sense...y'all can do lots of stuff that way. I meant more like affect the political climate of the nation, or get elected. (...) Uhh...I can't...yeah, that's (...) (25 years ago, 17-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      (canceled)        Re: What happened?   Once upon a time, (on Wed, 16 Jun 1999 17:04:05 GMT, to be precise!), Christopher L. Weeks uttered the following profundities.... (...) All Americans are psychotic, gun nuts???? :o) to the billionth power! (25 years ago, 17-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) I'm going to work someplace else instead of CTP. My CTP email won't work any more. That's the scoop, the whole scoop and nothing but the scoop. Really. What part didn't you get? :-) Oh, ok. It's not the whole scoop. You want more details? :-) (...) (25 years ago, 17-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: What happened?   (...) Damn. I'm allergic to nuts. I wonder if Canada will take me? I understand that there are plenty of psychos there. Cheers, - jsproat (25 years ago, 17-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) What does CTP stand for? I ask because I work for the Cartographic Technology Programs Office(1), which everyone calls CTP. :) Jeff 1 - CTP is a part of the National Ocean Service (NOS), which is a part of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric (...) (25 years ago, 17-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) Who's everyone in this context? CTP stands for Cambridge Technology Partners to about 4500 people that work in 50 offices worldwide. :-) That everyone may be bigger than your everyone. :-) -- Larry Pieniazek (URL) Application Integration! (...) (25 years ago, 17-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) Well, I read about CTP in InfoWorld all the time, so I'm part of Larry's everyone. (25 years ago, 18-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) There may be many psychos there, but at least they're polite. I lived in Buffalo for 4 years and got enamored of canada. Well, mainly of its beer. I keep threatening to defect, but until they pass the ERA here I won't have to. :) Patricia (25 years ago, 18-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) Technology (...) Oops... I meant 'everyone who works/associates with us'. :) There are I think 20 people who work for (my) CTP, but I'm not sure how many government agencies deal with us. Your CTP is certainly bigger! :) Jeff P.S. If you are (...) (25 years ago, 18-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) Come now. Python uses whitespace to indicate nesting. Even perl knows better than that. Hell, friggin' BASIC knows better than that. Jasper (25 years ago, 18-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) Absolutely. And let's burn all copies of Lott we can find, using the original Constitution as lighting-fluid. Jasper (25 years ago, 18-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   Once upon a time, (on Thu, 17 Jun 1999 17:52:22 GMT, to be precise!), Larry Pieniazek uttered the following profundities.... (...) Ah ha. Hmmmm. How much %age of the company were you offered? (25 years ago, 19-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Perl rules!   (...) Amen to that. Perl is the first general-purpose programming language I've ever used* which hasn't yet made me mad at it because it couldn't do something in a clean and straightforward way. It's amazing: I just never get mad at Perl. Instead, (...) (25 years ago, 19-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: What happened?   (...) Enough to make me quite happy. For whatever reason, in the US, it's rude to ask specific details, and it would not be prudent for me to answer publicly in more detail. Why salaries and comp are closely guarded may be an interesting .debate (...) (25 years ago, 19-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Perl rules!   Good post! (...) I agree with most all you say, but I am surprised that you consider this: in-memory compilation of arbitrary code constructed on-the-fly, necessary for a language to be "high level". I rather consider it a potential pitfall for the (...) (25 years ago, 19-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Perl rules!   (...) I didn't mean to say that it was necessary for a language to be "high level" but it certainly is a common property of high-level langauges (for example Lisp/Scheme, Logo, PostScript*, and Perl). (...) It certainly has a variety of mis-uses, (...) (25 years ago, 19-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: What happened?   Larry Pieniazek wrote in message <376B8E64.D5F6383E@v...er.net>... (...) I've always assumed part of it is the corporations not wanting employees to know how bad a deal they've got. Of course a more reasonable reason is the corporation not wanting (...) (25 years ago, 20-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Perl rules!   Todd Lehman wrote in message ... (...) functions, (...) regular (...) level" (...) I've always had a sport in my heart for SNOBOL which had an eval function to evaluate an expression, and a compile function if you needed real code. I used the (...) (25 years ago, 20-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: What happened?   On Sat, 19 Jun 1999 12:34:44 GMT, Larry Pieniazek uttered the following profundities... (...) I wasn't expecting an answer! However, good luck! It must be quite exciting to be part of a small, up-and-coming firm. I imagine, being a part of (...) (25 years ago, 20-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: What happened?   (...) Here we go... :-) I think they should have that right but they are only allowed to have a 10 second fuse activated upon purchase. (...) But remember they have to pay for everything with user-end fees, oh dear I'm in hospital dying, got $10k? (...) (25 years ago, 20-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   Not all American's own guns, much less being "gun nuts". It is written in our Constitution, the right to bear arms, simply to arm the citizens just in case they are tired of a overbearing, federal monstrosity that is devouring our personal liberties (...) (25 years ago, 21-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) I thought Falwell was in Southern California... Steve (25 years ago, 21-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) I'm in the process of finding a new employer now, and I'm using recruiters (headhunters) for the first time. What am I supposed to answer when they ask what I make? I'd rather not tell them, but I also don't want them to fail to pass on my (...) (25 years ago, 21-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: What happened?   (...) DVD players are not made up. I've seen them in action. Now, teleportation units are made up. Mostly. (25 years ago, 21-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) Oh, here is some logical thinking! Come now, Edward! Scott Sanburn Before replying, please refer to a anatomy book on humans, you might learn something! (...) (25 years ago, 21-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) Hmm. Tell them the truth? Or at least tell them what you'd like to be making. Steve (25 years ago, 21-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: What happened?   (...) Either tell them the truth or don't tell them anything. I'm in the same boat, and if internal mobility doesn't present itself soon, I'll be revamping the resume and starting the same process. (25 years ago, 22-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: What happened?   (...) Tell them what you're worth (and why) and what range you're willing to accept, but not what you currently make. What you currently make is largely irrelevant anyway during the headhunting phase, especially if you are moving from MS to NJ, (...) (25 years ago, 22-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: What happened?   (...) Don't answer specifically until and unless you are about to get a job offer from a specific firm. Do your research about what you are worth, then answer the "what do you make" question from a headhunter with "well below market, which is 90K (...) (25 years ago, 22-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: What happened?   (...) That's not a pun! l.o-t.d is "anth"athema to punnery, anyhow. LFB. (25 years ago, 23-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.fun)      Re: What happened?   (...) Those are marvelous! I'm off to London on Tuesday to do work in the British Library Map Library and the War Office...er, DoD. So I do historical charts too, in a sense...I just look at charts of colonial holdings and dissect them in a dry, (...) (25 years ago, 23-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Getting a job - advice from the experts (was: Re: What happened?)   (...) I would say that it's the norm for a midwestern public university in a town where the ACCRA cost of living index is .9 or so. People move from here to industry in St. Louis or Kansas City and typically pick up a %50+ raise. Moving to the west (...) (25 years ago, 23-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Getting a job - advice from the experts (was: Re: What happened?)   (...) You have 150 employees working helpdesk? My God, how many students do you have? What kind of services do you provide to your students via the helpdesk? Might be scary to admit, but at a school of more than 25k students, we have 5 full-time (...) (25 years ago, 23-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Getting a job - advice from the experts (was: Re: What happened?)   (...) We have roughly 30K students and 10K faculty and staff since we're the home of the state university system. We run the public computing sites 800+ workstations in 15 locations. Mostly we help with the equipment in the room, but we also do (...) (25 years ago, 23-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: What happened?   (...) I got a job proposal (which I'm starting on Monday), and that had a 50% jump. But I agree that a 100% jump is pretty steep. There are several reasons that I feel that I got: 1) Current programmers are focused on other things, and need somebody (...) (25 years ago, 23-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: What happened?   Oops ... forgot to mention that the new place is about 3 blocks away from my current place. AND, he didn't know my current salary. (...) -- Lee Jorgensen, Programmer/Analyst - Bankoe Systems, Inc. mailto:jorgensen@bankoe.moc <-- reverse moc (...) (25 years ago, 23-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: What happened?   (...) For the record none of the ~350 images I've cleaned have been uploaded yet. Anyways, what I do is take a scan of a chart and remove extranious pixels and lines from them. It is by far one of the most boring jobs in the world, but the pay is (...) (25 years ago, 23-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Getting a job - advice from the experts (was: Re: What happened?)   Christopher L. Weeks <c576653@cclabs.missouri.edu> wrote: I'll have to respond to more of this later, especially the situation-specific stuff. Maybe privately since I would assume it might bore others. (...) No, dial-up service is not free, although (...) (25 years ago, 23-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: What happened?   (...) So say the pun pundits. And those with a punerial disease. -Tom McD. when replying, don't use spamcake for a pun cushion. (25 years ago, 26-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.fun, lugnet.off-topic.pun)      Re: Perl rules!   (...) The problem with perl, I am told, is that it's also incredibly easy to do things exactly the wrong way. In fact, it's vastly easier than to do it the right way. Just like in any other language, of course, but in perl, "there is always more (...) (25 years ago, 27-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: What happened?   (...) Dude, you need a sarcasm detector. Actually, since I don't see the people rising up against the government anytime soon, that argument is dead in the water.. Also, overthrowing the government by force is illegal anyway. You can always get guns (...) (25 years ago, 27-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Perl rules!   (...) It's no toy. (...) It's not a good language to teach Computer Science with. BTW, there is arguably never any "right" way. Just different ways to do things that either work correctly or don't work correctly -- or perform correctly but (...) (25 years ago, 28-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: What happened?   (...) Healthcare is a good/service. As such, it costs money. There is no entitlement to goods or services. Rights speak to behaviours, not to free goods. So, yes, if you happen to have planned things poorly enough that you show up on the hospital's (...) (25 years ago, 28-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) Unfortunately, many people are not in a position to pay the outrageous premiums insurance companies require. And even if people do want to pay, insurance companies get to pick and choose who they'll insure (often denying insurance to those who (...) (25 years ago, 28-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) Speaking as someone who has had to chip in and help with funeral expenses for someone who was too irresponsible to take care of them for himself while alive, I can attest to that. (25 years ago, 28-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) Gosh, I've found that insurance is quite affordable. What's the scoop? Oh, maybe it's because I've chosen an employer with a good package of bennies. (...) I thought government was here to perpetuate itself at the expense of the rest of us. (...) (25 years ago, 28-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) Well, I am also fortunate in that regard because I work for the State of North Carolina. Now, I live in a small town in the Appalachian mountains of NC that just happens to have a university in it which isthe area's largest employer. However, (...) (25 years ago, 29-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) Have you ever had the pleasure of enjoying government-run healthcare? I sure hope not. I have. My disability entitles me to care at VA facilities around the country and a few years ago, after my college fund ran out and Rachael and I were (...) (25 years ago, 29-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   Mike Stanley wrote: <snip> (...) <snipped horror story about Mike's VA hospital experience) You certainly get my sympathy for your terrible experience in the VA hospital. I have heard similar stories about retirement homes and mental health (...) (25 years ago, 29-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) Something is going to have to happen for health care. I'm not sure it isn't too long before we start having experiences like Mike's even with a health plan. It seems that health care is getting more and more inaccessible as there becomes more (...) (25 years ago, 29-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   The following responses are rather Libertarian macho flash because they were composed hurridly. That's OK, since the original poster was bemoaning no spirited debate. If the following statements don't provoke a great deal debate, I've misread the (...) (25 years ago, 29-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) I don't remember seeing anything about "free". And the government *is* here to serve the people. What do you call road building/maintenance? A "right"? Everything the government does is funded by the Taxpayers, hence our obligation to pay (...) (25 years ago, 29-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) That's ridiculous. First, if I do stop using these government "services" (as if that were possible) would I then be free of a tax obligation? For the answer, ask home-owners who send their kids to private schools (like me) because public (...) (25 years ago, 29-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) Is that fortune or decision? (...) There are more than 50,000 IT jobs open right now, people could get skills and then get jobs that do provide those bennies. If people in your area started doing that, then either the tourism industry would (...) (25 years ago, 29-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) Around here, if you're willing to drive into the sticks less than an hour, I can still find doctors and dentists who accept chickens (or whatever) in payment from their customers who don't deal with much cash. There are lots of doctors who (...) (25 years ago, 29-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) I was hoping not to engage Larry in this debate because I believe my viewpoints are valid even though I might not be able to defend them as aptly as Larry can defend his. I am not a good debater and Larry, as I think we all know, is a (...) (25 years ago, 29-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) But we specifically ARE talking about free goods. Try to keep up. The assertion being made is that people are *entitled* to a certain level of medical care whether or not they can afford it. Now, if they can't afford it, what else would that (...) (25 years ago, 29-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) Please please please, don't anyone remove that key syllable, thank you. The new Victoria's Secret catalog just came, you'll have to excuse me while I go study it closely. (1) (...) I certainly understand the first quoted statement you make in (...) (25 years ago, 29-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) <snip> (...) <snip> (...) I stated this more or less to get your blood boiling. I believe people in need ought to be helped. I believe there are many people in need of health insurance in this country and that they ought to be helped by our (...) (25 years ago, 29-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   Larry, I would like to understand the Libertarian principle better, but am finding it hard to understand from your responses in the various debates that have occured. What is the Libertarian view laws and law enforcement? We can all certainly agree (...) (25 years ago, 29-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) It worked. (...) Feel free to act on that belief. There are many worthy charities out there. You mentioned one of my favorites, Habitat for Humanity. We've been supporting them for an awfully long time. (...) That's where you go too far. (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   Whoops... first time round was just mailed to Frank, meant to post this instead, so here it is. (...) Right. that's because I'm Libertarian Macho Flashing(tm). I do it all the time. I'm not this over the top out in public, trust me. For a somewhat (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) I don't have time to get into this fully, but I agree more with Larry than Thomas, I'm afraid. What I do have time to do, though, is assert that "the government" most certainly does NOT spend the money it gets for the welfare of the people. (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) Right. Bread and Circuses are not put on to benefit the participants, but rather to retain power. (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   "Christopher L. Weeks" wrote: <snip> (...) Yep, I was on that list. And, I once won a contest (I think it's the only contest I've ever won) in which I received an uncut sheet of the Chicago set for SC:TCG. I still have it. (...) -- Thomas Main (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.fun)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) I have a huge problem with this inane argument. Larry is avoiding the basic issue and circumventing it with property gibberish. It is simply this - all Doctors take a Hypocratic oath - that they will provide medical service irregardless of the (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) Have you read Larry's response to my question about the ideals of Libertarianism? Your last comment is a gross mischaracterization of Larry's position. If you read one of his other responses, you will even see that he does in fact support (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) Which basic issue is he circumventing? I thought the basic issue was determining who should pay for Random Joe's medical care. Larry thinks Random Joe should and Thomas thinks that Larry should. (...) Hippocrates developed the oath, but I (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   Ugh, I go on a 5 day vacation, and I get back to this! Oh well! :) (...) It doesn't matter if "that argument is dead in the water" (I don't think it is), the founding fathers put the second amendment in just in case the government gets out of (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   "Christopher L. Weeks" wrote: <snip> (...) OK, the first person who knows this song wins the debate: "...i've been called a communist because i'm left-handed/that's the hand to use.../well, nevermind." other lines (if you need a hint): "i've been (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) I have a huge problem with the characterisation of my cogent and lucid statements (:-))as inane, or gibberish. Perhaps to someone who'd rather not honor property rights and doesn't understand why property rights matter, they're gibberish. But (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   Man, Larry, I go away for a few days, and this explodes on my e-mail. :) Oh, and I agree with Larry 100%, even if I am a Republican (Some moral differences with the Libertarians, but nothing us "right-wingers" can't work out!). By the way, not all (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) Admirable quality, I wish more humans felt this way. People *should* feel this way, as it is good for all. (...) Why? Because he feels the government should try to take care of the people it was created to protect and serve? I think you, (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) OK, you state "people do not have a RIGHT to free goods." I am simplying stating that some people, through no fault of their own, do not have the ability to pay for those goods but, in the name of humanity, should "have a RIGHT to free goods". (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) I think that in a perfect liberatopia, all three of these people would have no problem getting the care they need, through charity. Person A may still be helped by some kind of unemployment coverage. Person B's family should also invest in a (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   Your little moral problems are a sucker's trap, because you haven't stated enough assumptions and preconditions, so whatever I say will be twisted around. But hey, look up sucker in the dictionary... see that picture? that's me. (...) Why? No one (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) So you are saying that these people have the right to the care that they need. Isn't charity the giving of free goods? Are you saying that these people have a right to free goods? (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) Oh, come on!! You CANNOT have a "perfect" society with more than a small number of people!! It is imposible! No matter what, there will be some that take advantage of it. Why do you think Communism failed? Any type of society that relies on (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) His savings are gone so soon? What did A do for 35 years? I have only been actively saving for a short while now and I could last a few months without my job, minimum. Inside of a year I'll be able to last a lot longer. Why would A have so (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) No, I think he's saying that, in a perfect libertopia, other people who help these people of their own free will. That does not imply that ABC have rights to those goods. (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) Ignoring the minimum wage issue, who cares if the only jobs available are minimum wage? I've worked for varying amounts in my life. If you work for 35 years making $30k per year (sorry, that should probably be $40-50k/year if we're talking a (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) No. (...) Yes and no. (...) No. There is no right to charity. A charity may feel a moral obligation to help, but that moral obligation is something between them and their benefactors. A charity will set conditions under which it provides goods (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) OK, OK, I give in. I'll feel compassion for those people in the US that for reasons beyond their control can't afford to take care of themselves. All 2 of them. That was a flippant remark, but it makes a point. If you want my help, you have to (...) (25 years ago, 1-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) This point is valid. There is no perfect society and Libertarianism does not claim to be able to achieve one. It merely claims to be able to make things better. (...) Answer this question yourself, please. I know why it failed. I suspect you (...) (25 years ago, 1-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   Larry Pieniazek wrote in message <37796883.7A114758@v...er.net>... (...) And of course I replied in kind... Here's my reply: (...) Thanks for the response. I suppose I am close to being a closet Libertarian. I think most of my discomfort has been (...) (25 years ago, 1-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) This smacks of this new age crap I hear about how morals are relative and everyone is entitled to their own morals, no matter how warped, and nobody else should condemn them. That's bullshit. Lemme give you an example of how you determine what (...) (25 years ago, 1-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) If he gets hit by a truck (this is what the original post was about), he'd be refused medical attention because he has no benefits and can't afford it on his own. Through no fault of his own, society and the government have just condemned him (...) (25 years ago, 1-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) I think the problem here is that you are looking at the libertarian perspective piecemeal. As I understand it from what Larry has said is that since everything is connected, a truly (or at least much more than the one we have now) free market (...) (25 years ago, 1-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) It should also be said that charity doesn't automatically mean "free" goods. Habitat for Humanity is very definitely a charity, but they don't give away houses. They ask their benneficiaries to help build the house and in general to show (...) (25 years ago, 1-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) Um....He does. By your own admission previously, you do allow him to extort money out of you for his pet projects. ('He' refers to Ed, the government, and communists in general.) (25 years ago, 1-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) He didn't say a right; he said they would _probably_ receive charity. (25 years ago, 1-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) I hear ya brother Larry. (...) No. Never. But, they should have a RIGHT to earn goods. (...) Others have hashed this one out pretty well, but basically, f@*k him. 35 years is a long time to not sock something away for the future. One of my (...) (25 years ago, 1-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) Lost a high-paying job and had to take a much lower paying job, yes. Shit happens. I made the best of the situation and moved on. Everyone else can too. (...) Saying "he lost his job and the only jobs available were minimum wage jobs so he (...) (25 years ago, 1-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   Wow, Mike Stanley and I agree on something! That is amazing! (J/K Mike. You made some great points!) I happen to work two jobs to pay off my student loans. Scott Sanburn (...) (25 years ago, 1-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   Well, we really have a quite a little mutual admiration society going here, don't we. All this macho, I've-got- 10-jobs back-slapping is touching, but let me offer a little unsolicited advice: Don't get sick, especially with a long-term, chronic (...) (25 years ago, 2-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) Somebody just watched "The Trouble with Tribbles"! --Todd (25 years ago, 2-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) Thanks for the advice...I'll try not to. (...) One of my roommates in college grew up in a Utah sheep-farming family. He tells a quaint little annecdote like yours. His grandfather got old (it happens to all of us) and stopped working on the (...) (25 years ago, 2-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Todd Lehman writes: [...] (...) OUCH! You are *too* much. John C (25 years ago, 2-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Christopher L. Weeks writes: [...] (...) Agreed. Unfortunately, with progressively debilitating diseases, the brain is often the first thing to go, and can be gone before you know what's happened or have a chance to do (...) (25 years ago, 2-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   I was catching up on this group when I read this post. This post by Lar is 100% right on. Why are there 46 more posts left in this thread for me to read??? I hope its a bunch of puns, as I can't see anything left to debate. I guess all hell has (...) (25 years ago, 2-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   Thomas Main wrote in message <3779144D.DC72D75@ap...te.edu>... (...) Ah, just what the doctor ordered - good, teenage humor. When you can't argue, just hit 'em below the belt. Thomas, I don't know you very well, but I have now read a couple posts of (...) (25 years ago, 2-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   Frank Filz wrote in message <377A8667.334E@minds...ng.com>... (...) need. (...) No, he did not say that. Its funny how people who like to take other people's property also like to take other people's words and misuse them. (...) Frank is catching on (...) (25 years ago, 2-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   John Cromer wrote in message ... (...) Thanks for pointing this out. You are right, our general voting public (clear-headed Americans) would rather vote for assholes that lie and say they will make things better than for people who could actually (...) (25 years ago, 2-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) his (...) I think that you're ignoring (as I understand it) a basic tenate of Libertarianism. Where does the fault lie? If this person has no savings, is it his own fault, or circumstances beyond his control? More to the immediate, who's fault (...) (25 years ago, 2-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   James Brown <galliard@shades-of-night.com> wrote: Not really responding to what James wrote, although I think it made sense. Just jumping in again. Brought up Larry's (and what I assume are the LP's) opinions on the government health care thing (...) (25 years ago, 2-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   Mike Stanley wrote in message ... (...) I hate to bring up the old religion thing, but it is relevant. One of the greatest difficulties that the average westerner has in accepting the Libertarian idea that people are basically good, is that one of (...) (25 years ago, 3-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   John DiRienzo wrote in message ... (...) Are you commenting on my words or Ed's here? (...) My "yes and no" was that in one sense, charity is the giving of goods without expecting something in return (shorthand "free goods"), but it is also a "no" (...) (25 years ago, 3-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   John DiRienzo wrote: Although I think this is somewhat of a dead horse issue and I'm wayyyy to tired to be writing this...John addressed me personally, so I thought I should respond... (...) <snip> (...) Just trying to diffuse a tense situation with (...) (25 years ago, 3-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   On Tue, 29 Jun 1999 14:18:59 GMT, Larry Pieniazek uttered the following profundities... (...) But your own Declaration of Independance states that everyone is entitled to life, liberty and the pursuit of hapiness. Health is necessary to life, yet (...) (25 years ago, 3-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   On Tue, 29 Jun 1999 14:18:59 GMT, Larry Pieniazek uttered the following profundities... (...) I responded before seeing this bit! :o) Actually, in Europe(1) we do a rather crap job of provision of social care. Too many liberals and communists have (...) (25 years ago, 3-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   On Wed, 30 Jun 1999 00:44:51 GMT, Larry Pieniazek uttered the following profundities... (...) You would tax food? It is something essential to life itself. Though one could argue taxation on certain items of food (1), to tax *all* food items, IMO, (...) (25 years ago, 3-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) I agree. I'd also point out that the person who was most adamant about thinking it is "human nature" to be selfish and not give, no matter how much you do or do not have taken from you by the government was the person who somewhat proudly (...) (25 years ago, 3-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) This is something I'm curious about. In these European countries that have this utopia of "free" healthcare I would assume it is paid for with taxes, right? I've also heard that in such places those who have the means most definitely do choose (...) (25 years ago, 3-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) I haven't been convinced that more money will always create better education. Public education, like everything else run by the government, is almost by definition inefficient and wasteful. Still, as bad as it may be, I received my entire (...) (25 years ago, 3-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) I disagree. We've seen various proposals here that say you wouldn't tax "unprepared" food but you would tax prepared food. So you wouldn't tax the mass-produced ham you buy in little packets, but if you decide you'd like fresher meat from the (...) (25 years ago, 3-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   Mike Stanley wrote in message ... (...) Healthcare is definitely the toughest nut to crack here. The problem is that essentially for anyone in the world, there is a medical condition which would take more resources to treat than they themselves own (...) (25 years ago, 3-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) What part of "no exceptions" don't you understand? ALL or nothing. Water is something essential to life itself. So is gasoline if it's in the car that's rushing you to the hospital, or nails if they're in the 2by4 directly over your head (...) (25 years ago, 3-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) I'm glad John's here but I do want to point out that I was perfectly fine with this particular one... I riffed on it quite happily. In general I tend to pounce on ad hominems but this wasn't one. (25 years ago, 3-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) The one that will get Bill Gates is the one we can't cure yet. Same as what got Princess Diana. We currently cannot save people that get crushed to 1/2 their volume and aren't extricated and gotten to the hospital that very instant. It did not (...) (25 years ago, 3-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) I'm going to refer you to the federalist papers on this, and they're a hard slog, believe me, I'm re-reading them now, as I periodically do. Summarizing, though: I acknowledge that a quick read of the phrase "LL&PH" may leave one with the (...) (25 years ago, 3-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) Let me forestall a pounce, this is a typo. The second "me" should say "my family after I am gone" (25 years ago, 3-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   Larry Pieniazek wrote in message <377E75DD.377FC107@v...er.net>... (...) One thing that does worry me a bit is if our capability to identify genetic markers for those diseases which are genetic outstrips our ability to improve care for them knowing (...) (25 years ago, 4-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) In all fairness Communism is defendable from first principles yet is always said to be bad. I agree with the ideal of communism but not Marxism. In an ideal communism state there is no tax, no unemployment. I've missed out on most of this (...) (25 years ago, 4-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) In all fairness Communism is INdefensible from first principles, if you accept the rights based principle that people have the right to maximum freedom, or the utilitarian principle that we should strive for the system that produces the (...) (25 years ago, 4-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   On Sat, 3 Jul 1999 08:50:13 GMT, Mike Stanley uttered the following profundities... (...) I wouldn't know the answers, either. And I agree, too many parents take too little interest in their children. However, where chronic underfunding exists in a (...) (25 years ago, 4-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   On Sat, 3 Jul 1999 20:56:01 GMT, Larry Pieniazek uttered the following profundities... (...) I do not have these federalist papers to which you refer, so must trust your *interpretation* of them. Assuming a copy exists on the 'net, I shall read (...) (25 years ago, 4-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   On Sat, 3 Jul 1999 08:56:30 GMT, Mike Stanley uttered the following profundities... (...) Agreed, it must be all or nothing, but I will defend the no tax on any food position. (25 years ago, 4-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   On Sat, 3 Jul 1999 14:27:17 GMT, Larry Pieniazek uttered the following profundities... (...) Unless of course, you are one of the poor sods denied any health care, because even if they made it to the hospital, they might be deemed an unsuitable (...) (25 years ago, 4-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   On Sat, 3 Jul 1999 08:42:49 GMT, Mike Stanley uttered the following profundities... (...) It certainly isn't a "utopia," at least in the UK. It is bureaucratic, mismanaged, and all health care is expensive, after all. New drugs cost a fortune, and (...) (25 years ago, 4-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   On Sat, 3 Jul 1999 20:43:09 GMT, Larry Pieniazek uttered the following profundities... (...) It is an interesting measure of "humanity." How much do we make the sick, and their families, suffer, in order that we expend vast resources in order to (...) (25 years ago, 4-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) Too much work. You go to www.excite.com Type federalist papers into the search box Go from there (I found them at the 3rd listing, skipping the first 2) Shakin near everything is on the web - you just have to want to find it. Remedying one's (...) (25 years ago, 5-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) It does. A quick search will turn it up online. I shan't provide the free good of doing your research for you in this case. I went out and bought a copy in the bookstore because I wanted to be able to read it on the plane. Note that the papers (...) (25 years ago, 5-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) Really, Richard, are you trying to appear dense and quibblish on purpose? I'm convinced that the "final state" libertarian government can be funded without taxes. Taxes are only needed during the transition period. So I don't want any. But if (...) (25 years ago, 5-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) Mind posting the ISBN (if you have it handy) or title of the edition you bought? I'd like to pick it up myself and the first 4 versions I've checked out on Amazon do not appear to have much in the form of commentary. (25 years ago, 5-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) Food (store-bought) is less important than Internet access. :-) Heck, I can stick some seeds in the ground and grow my own food for free out in the garden if I want, but I sure can't stick a wire in the ground and grow Internet access for (...) (25 years ago, 5-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      federalist ISBN (was Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   Commentary may have been too strong a word, it has an intro, some editing, and a cross referenced constitution I have the Rossiter edition ISBN 0-451-62451-2 (25 years ago, 5-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: federalist ISBN (was Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) Thanks. That one's nice and cheap on Amazon. I think I'll swing by my used bookstore tomorrow and see if I can find a copy even cheaper, though. Hate to pay shipping on a 5 dollar book. Better than paying tax on it, though. ;) (25 years ago, 6-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   On Mon, 5 Jul 1999 00:20:22 GMT, Mike Stanley uttered the following profundities... (...) Indeed it is, but no harm in asking should someone just happen to have them! (...) Prefer metacrawler...., but when back online will go for yours. (25 years ago, 6-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   On Mon, 5 Jul 1999 15:06:30 GMT, Larry Pieniazek uttered the following profundities... (...) Requested on the off-chance someone had them? I do have a fair few documents from wiretap.spies or whatever it was called, I downloaded almost everything (...) (25 years ago, 6-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   On Mon, 5 Jul 1999 15:16:31 GMT, Larry Pieniazek uttered the following profundities... (...) You should know me well enough by now to know the answer to that one. Of course I am! :o) (...) I missed out somewhere the bit about no taxis. (...) Sales (...) (25 years ago, 6-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) You just wait for the comming era of nanotechnology. We'll see plated wires growing before I'm dead, or I'll be...uh...dead. (25 years ago, 6-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) A friend of mine became a VP at Chase Manhattan Bank/Chemical Bank with an AS degree. He built himself up by taking courses when needed, and just going out and showing that he was capable of doing the job. (25 years ago, 6-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) I think that was me. (...) I'll be paying almost $2000 to move in August because I have lots and lots of large things. When I was 19 I moved away from my parents' house - 300 miles for about $20 in gas. Everything I owned fit in my car after (...) (25 years ago, 6-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) More money spent certain ways CAN help, but it won't be spent that way. (...) Right. Parents need to be educated too. Public school should include the whole family and if they refuse to participate, society ought to frown on it dramatically (...) (25 years ago, 6-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) Careful what you agree to. They're a serious read. (...) No, only things that require resources to acquire. (...) And that's how it should be. (...) I'm with Larry, they should be done away with. My kid was inoculated on the dime of my (...) (25 years ago, 6-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) I agree. I've actually thought a plan of universal reversible sterilization would do just fine, with some form of proof of worthiness to be un-sterilized. The worthiness part is the tricky part - I know I'm not qualified to make decisions like (...) (25 years ago, 7-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) For sake of clarity, I only think such a procedure should be employed for those who demonstrate the unwillingness to care for their young. People can disagree with me in any number of ways and still have the RIGHT to have kids as long as they (...) (25 years ago, 7-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) I grew up during the 60s - remember the era that fought for equal rights, fought against the war in Vietnam, fought for student rights, fought against oppression of the poor by the rich, fought to get assistance to those who were in need. You (...) (25 years ago, 7-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: federalist ISBN (was Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   On Tue, 6 Jul 1999 03:30:06 GMT, Mike Stanley uttered the following profundities... (...) I have downloaded that, the constitution, BoR, DoI, from Project Gutenburg. (25 years ago, 7-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) The 60s is the decade that invented the socially-acceptable slacker as far as I can tell. I get so sick of you people ranting insanely about how grand those times were. How exactly did you and yours fight for those things? Equal rights - I (...) (25 years ago, 7-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) So did I, although you have some seniority on me, the 70's were my decade of activism. (...) Good causes. I was prepared to resist Vietnam if it had dragged on much longer. What a useless little war. A waste of national treasure, and human (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) were (...) Why, because we had the nerve to see that things were wrong and fought to right them? Or because your generation has done absolutely nothing but reap the goods for nothing. (...) In the 60s you didn't have to hire anyone. You could (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   Christopher L. Weeks wrote in message <3783B529.73A74C27@c...ri.edu>... (...) against (...) were (...) Groovy! <silly debate snipped> (...) Chris, I tend to agree with you more often than with Ed "Boxer" Jones, but if you would advocate the above, I (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) See my reply to Weeks. (...) were (...) Again read my reply to Weeks. (...) Construction workers are employed by construction companies. Those companies have winter layoffs. Those employees, having worked 6 months or more, are entitled to (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) You're stretching here, you know. This notion that you paid in advance for food stamps and therefore are entitled to get them kind of runs counter to the notion that the needy deserve help whether they paid for it or not. You can't have it (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: federalist ISBN (was Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) Yeah, I could do that too, but lately, with wrist and elbow pains setting in, I've decided I should spend less time reading in front of the computer and more time reading in my recliner. I'll be happy when portable e-books become commonplace, (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) Actually, you can, and it was the intent of the original program - to assist those with no income and to assist those who are underemployeed. (...) [snip] (...) Well, actually, he has to pay unemployment insurance (which is part of his taxes). (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) Saw it. (...) Please explain why this is a good thing and not the inmates running the asylum. Please justify how burning down the administration building is a good way to send the message that the school is not delivering appropriate classes, (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      What is insurance? (was Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) No, you cannot have your cake and eat it too. That violates causality. No, you cannot make two opposing/conflicting arguments at the same time. That violates logic. That's what you're trying to do. So you cannot have it both ways. (...) (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) [snip] (...) As a former teacher, two of the biggest problems with today's schools are: 1. lack of funding - classrooms are overcrowded, teacher salaries over the last 30 years have actually decreased (differnce of 1960's salary times (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What is insurance? (was Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) The politicians they own cast votes on their behalf all the time - much more often than on the behalf of the people who elect them. (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) But 3 lefts do;-) -John (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   "Christopher L. Weeks" wrote: <snipped a lot of incendiary rhetoric> I feel as though the climate in this newsgroup had grown very hostile. So much so, that I am going to unsubscribe from it because I choose not expose myself what I feel is (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) For the sake of clarity I agree with the sort of punitive sterilization you describe here, for those reasons. I just think people can prove in many ways that they most likely will BE unfit to care for their children. Like I said, I don't think (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) Oh, I don't know about lack of funding. The per pupil amount spent has gone up a lot even in constant dollars. NY is particularly pernicious, bumping up against 10K a (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What is insurance? (was Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   <378410DA.E6670E74@voyager.net> <slrn7o85bv.7bp.cjc@...S.UTK.EDU> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) An honest politician is one who stays bought. There are almost no honest politicians. (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) The man obviously has never been anywhere NEAR Boston. Sometimes it only takes 2, sometimes it takes 5, and sometimes you just can't get there from here. (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun, lugnet.loc.us.ma.bos)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) That may be your reason or your idea of why people school tax levies down. I disagree. People vote down tax levies simply because they do no want to pay taxes. (...) Is it any easier to be involved in a private school for someone who works? (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   <3784A057.A9F1E5A7@voyager.net> <FEK0ss.3A1@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) Why, exactly? (...) Good question. And the answer is yes. Private schools, being market driven, have reason to (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What is insurance? (was Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) When corporations are no longer immortal people (under the law), I'll worry about 'corporation rights'. Steve (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) Good idea. You might at least want to take a step outside, and check the name on the shingle. This ng is supposed to be for debate. It occasionally gets hot, but rarely hostile. Steve (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) Well, I used to watch "Cheers". Does that count? Actually, my favorite show of all time is St. Elsewhere. Best show ever. Period. ER is merely a slick rip-off. *Any* good drama today owes its success to St. E, and possibly Hill Street Blues. (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun, lugnet.loc.us.ma.bos)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) That's amazing. When I taught - there were parent/teacher conferences every month in the evening and twice a year on Saturdays. But weren't there also PTA meetings in the evening? Couldn't you have made your complaint known at those meetings? (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   <3784B28D.82177A5A@voyager.net> <FEK6nL.DDI@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) Bully for you. Some public schools are better, some are worse. Point is that parents have no recourse when (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   <3784B28D.82177A5A@voyager.net> <FEK6nL.DDI@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Missed these. (...) When I speak of the ability to discriminate, so am I. (...) I don't believe I said that. I said (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) Or San Francisco. (...) Nash Bridges? Oh, wait. You said "good". :P -Tom McD. when replying, note that the Ghirardelli Chocolate Factory at Fisherman's Wharf now sells little foil-wrapped chocolate spamcakes. (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun, lugnet.loc.us.ma.bos)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   Now, I thought John Neal had come up with a good debate topic, but he moved the thread to the Boston group. Can I argue here? Is that legal? If so, I think Barney Miller was the Best Show ever. Period. ST. E and HSB took too much time (but they (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun, lugnet.loc.us.ma.bos)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) Technically moreso here than in the Boston group. But I spose it could continue there if folks don't complain. (...) Ooo hadn't thought of that one. I really enjoyed that show. My two favs on that show were Steve Landesberg and Jack Soo. -Tom (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun, lugnet.loc.us.ma.bos)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) broken. (...) Not at all, see my response to Larry on this - you claimed to lack an appropriate flippant response - so I provided it. But I must say, that the original suggestion of sterilization made my skin crawl. (...) But on to the serious (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   Hi all, First, I would like to say a few words about the sterilization thread and Thomas' claim that there was hostility here. I want to apologize. When I first brought up sterilization it was somewhat (but not totally) facetious. I included the (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) I got a big smile out of that. (...) It wasn't a joke, but it wasn't exactly serious either. (...) Right. I'm straight-up 100% agreed. But, that's not the world we live in. We live in a world where people think that robbing from the rich to (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) I addressed this more fully in another note, but it was never my intent to come off as hostile. I'm Sorry that Thomas and others feel that way. How would you like me to tone my arguments, or are just some topics too much for some of you? (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) It sounds as if you're saying that the morally 'best' course of action would be to stand off and not take the unemployment. I disagree strongly. I think that if you disagree with the system in the way that you (and I) seem to, you owe it to (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   <3784C71B.3C4F5D8@uswest.net> <FEK9oB.J3q@lugnet.com> <FEKDqD.3tE@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) I did enjoy BM, I also liked Barney (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) I agree that this is a problem, but your number 2 below really drives the nail through the board. (...) It's advancing. Here at the University of Missouri, there are (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   Christopher L. Weeks wrote in message <3784F884.EBFE1372@c...ri.edu>... (...) why do (...) Chris, I know we are on the same side and all, but following your moral further, it is also right to break the laws, as you see fit, because it hurts the (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) Statistical studies only support, and can never _prove_ a particular hypothesis. At least if you're rational and believe (generally) that the scientific method is valid. Ed can't possibly prove that, he can only support it with evidence. (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) I don't see how my logic lead to this conclusion. But, I agree that breaking some laws is required to maintain moral purity. Since the US government uses my tax dollars to kill people with whom I have no beef, I do feel kind of sleazy allowing (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   Reply-To: cjc@newsguy.com Message-Id: <slrn7oalrb.7jg.cjc@...S.UTK.EDU> X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.4.3 UNIX) (...) Or people have grown so fed-up with every new property tax increase being touted as "necessary to turn education around" and yet year (...) (25 years ago, 9-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) Wow, that's really disgusting. I think maybe Denny's watched Roger and Me a few too many times. (25 years ago, 9-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) I guess you mean a duplex. Sure, why not? Especially given the current state of the law that makes it so freakin difficult to get rid of losers once you find out they're scummy and you don't want them or their loud, dirty, possibly dangerous (...) (25 years ago, 9-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) The only openly hostile comments I've seen so far were directed at you by Ed, and it seems he's claiming those were examples of flippancy, not hostility. Some topics are hot, some people get hot while debating them. I'd like to think I haven't (...) (25 years ago, 9-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   Mike Stanley wrote: Just teasing here, Mike, mind you, but... (...) the juxtaposition of these two parts of your post made me laugh a bit at the irony. But hey, I don't get out much. For the record I don't think crap is that bad a word any more. Too (...) (25 years ago, 9-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   <slrn7oanmg.7jg.cjc@...S.UTK.EDU> <37856F42.4B2DD2B7@voyager.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) Apparently so in North Carolina also, at least if children are around (the judge did say the part of (...) (25 years ago, 9-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) Are you sure that wasn't a guy in Michigan? It made the national news. (25 years ago, 9-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   <3785FAB8.391B@mindspring.com> <3785FDDB.7779CCF2@voyager.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) Maybe I didn't pay attention to details, but I could have sworn it was North Carolina, will have to (...) (25 years ago, 9-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) I bet that guy wishes he'd gotten his 15 seconds of fame a different way. (...) 90 days and a canoe, yes. Can't say about the "children vs. women" bit. (25 years ago, 9-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: federalist ISBN (was Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   On Thu, 8 Jul 1999 02:12:24 GMT, Mike Stanley uttered the following profundities... (...) Have a Gestetner photocopier hooked up to the network, so it will be pumped through there, to make an A5 sized booklet. (A5=210mm x 150mm) (25 years ago, 9-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) Actually, it's an old law. And the guy didn't just utter the f-word a few times, he was all aggro-ed out, and shouting so people a fair distance away could hear him, and on and on. Personally, I don't care what language he was using. He (...) (25 years ago, 9-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   <3785FAB8.391B@mindspring.com> <378640fa.5882690@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) I mostly come to the same conclusion you do but for different reasons. While the owner has the right to (...) (25 years ago, 10-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) Boston is one of the rarities in America, a non-rectangular designed city. Or rather, non-planned. Most inner cities here are the same - often the medieval moats are still running through them as well, so you can do nice liquid recreation. (...) (25 years ago, 12-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun, lugnet.loc.us.ma.bos)      Re: Perl rules!   (...) Yeah, I had a nice discussion on this exact subject a while ago elsewhere. Maintainability is usually more important than efficiency or looking pretty. However, to be maintainable, code has to be written in ways that can be understood easily. (...) (25 years ago, 12-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek, lugnet.off-topic.pun)      Re: What happened?   (...) /s/5 day/7 day/g, and the same. (...) I know. (...) Bzzt. Benito was the fascist. Mr moustache and Mr Red were not fascists. (...) You're _completely_ missing the point. You think I'm equating illegal with bad. I don't necessarily. (...) (25 years ago, 12-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   You're missing the point of the Second Amendment, my friend. Please read some of the Founding Father's thoughts on it before you go off into big time debates. Scott Sanburn (25 years ago, 12-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) Never been chronically ill, have you? You don't _get_ health insurance once you are. Period. I'll stop now before my blood-pressure hits the ceiling. Jasper (25 years ago, 12-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) And everybody can get a job anywhere they want. I see. (...) Lung cancer does not necessarily have anything to do with smoking. My grandfather died from it, and he never touched a cigarette in his life. However, his employer felt fit to (...) (25 years ago, 12-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) Well, no. The finiteness of the situation says they can't. From what I've seen public universities are an abundant source of jobs with good benefits. And you seem not to need a clue to get a job there. (...) OK. There is no disease where I can (...) (25 years ago, 12-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) Actually, we had the same reasons. You just described it much better. Steve (25 years ago, 12-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   Larry Pieniazek <lar@voyager.net> wrote in message news:3784A319.4DF80A...ger.net... (...) ...and to make a left turn, you have to have an item run interference for you, whether it be pedestrian, ambulance, or homeless man pushing a shopping (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   Jeremy Dailey wrote in message ... (...) shopping (...) Or other car... Now Boston driving isn't THAT bad... I've never had an accident in Boston (near Boston, yea, a couple)... Another fun one people "discover". There are lots of lights where (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)      Re: Perl rules!   (...) I'd put correctness above maintainability, in the sense that, although maintainable code needs to be able to stay correct, code ought to be correct in the first place. And above correctness, the code ought to be solving the right problems (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) This reminded me of something my Driving Instructor told the class. He said if an accident is unavoidable, always steer for the softer target. My friend piped up, "So if we have a choice between a brick wall and a person, we should hit the (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)      Re: Perl rules!   (...) Hey, I'm going to have to take issue with that. English can be a very beautiful language. It can also be an ugly language, but that doesn't mean that it can't be amazing poetry in the right hands. So actually it's a pretty good analogy. :) (25 years ago, 13-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Perl rules!   (...) Another great strength of English is that through years of borrowing ideas from other languages, you end up with many ways to express the same idea, allowing the flexibilty both to make things beautiful and to find just the precise way to (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Perl rules!   (...) It also means there are 50 thousand rules to learn, and 50 million exceptions to those rules. At least we don't have to cojugate (sp?) anything... Steve (25 years ago, 13-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Perl rules!   (...) Luckily human beings are very good at that. In fact, the rules seem to be mostly descriptive -- we naturally say things a certain way, and then retroactively we look and say, "ok, that's the right way to say it because of such-and-such-rule". (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Perl rules!   (...) It's a good thing human minds are good at language -- can you imagine if parents actually had to teach their children to speak? That would be painful. Believe me, I know -- I tried for 4 years. *Then* my kid decided he was ready to talk. But (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Perl rules!   (...) I was that way too. That's why god invented spellcheck. (25 years ago, 13-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      learning languages (was: Re: Perl rules!)   [removed lugnet.off-topic.debate from ng-post list] (...) I had 2 years of German and didn't end up learning too much of it because it was from books and tapes and a little bit of conversation in class. I can still write some simple sentences and (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: learning languages (was: Re: Perl rules!)   (...) "What The--?! Why don't we use words we already know?" And thus the evil in Grace Hopper begat COBOL. ... Can you imagine the spelling errors that would pop up in code if programming languages were spoken? :-, Cheers, - jsproat (25 years ago, 13-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: learning languages (was: Re: Perl rules!)   (...) Hey, don't be dissin' COBOL for that :-( It served a purpose in its time (~40 years ago) and it's not COBOL's fault that it's still being used. (...) LOL! (OTOH, I've written 'printf' a couple of times when I'd meant to write 'print' :-) (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: learning languages (was: Re: Perl rules!)   (...) I have to admit, I'm something of an anti-COBOL bigot. That has obviously clouded my judgement, but I can't see what COBOL could do that FORTRAN wasn't already doing more cleanly and efficiently, on the same platforms. Cheers, - jsproat (25 years ago, 13-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: learning languages (was: Re: Perl rules!)   (...) Well, hey, aren't we all -- and as well we should all be (IMHO) in 1999, especially with all this Double-Byte COBOL, OO-COBOL, and COBOL-Java stuff going on as perverse attempts to keep COBOL alive and milking the Y2K cash cow. But I thought (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: learning languages (was: Re: Perl rules!)   (...) Oy vey, der camps. I alvays vorget der camps. Und der suits und der schlide-rules and der schtuff. (...) Wasn't COBOL started in 1959? By the time COBOL was developed, my dad (1) was writing FORTRAN compilers for whatever platform he needed (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: What happened?   (...) One of my friends has been looking for any job anywhere doing virtually anything and yet still is unemployed - the European economy is very different to the booming US Economy - and we all know what happens after a boom. (25 years ago, 13-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: learning languages (was: Re: Perl rules!)   (...) I think that's when it was first released, right? Hopper began working on it much earlier than that, yes? 1955 was what I read somewhere a couple hours ago. (...) Hey cool -- so you're a second-gen too? We'll have to invent a secret handshake. (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: learning languages (was: Re: Perl rules!)   (...) I don't know the original specs for either language, but I *think* COBOL's data-description capabilities were much richer than FORTRAN's. Steve (25 years ago, 14-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: learning languages (was: Re: Perl rules!)   (...) Sometimes I'm more reasonable. Sometimes I'm not. Not the world's best parent, but far from the worst. My children are both very not-ordinary, but in completely different ways. Steve (25 years ago, 14-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: learning languages (was: Re: Perl rules!)   (...) Heh heh heh. What was your parental-unit (1) coding? My dad was basically a civvie contractor for the Army for a good chunk of his career, writing software for calibrating RADAR and RADOT hardware, though he did work at the Hanford Nuclear (...) (25 years ago, 14-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: What happened?   (...) Good point, Scott. In particular try article 8 in the Federalist Papers. Seems pretty clear to me what was intended by the Second Amendment. Then read article 10 to understand why even if the majority thinks that we, for example, should (...) (25 years ago, 15-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) True. (...) And the fact that you don't have a gun in your house meant that every day when the troops came by to drag your grandfather off to work even though he didn't think it was safe, he went instead of resisting? (...) Larry "very tired (...) (25 years ago, 15-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) Why is that, exactly? Compare and contrast the unemployment rate in Germany to that in Ireland. Factor of 4 difference. Why? What's different, exactly? Discuss. (...) I'll bite. What? Why? (25 years ago, 15-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) Make sure you have it first. Period. (25 years ago, 15-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) Ah. And you can just get IT skills just like that I suppose. Funny - it took me so many years to slowly learn all the Windows programming knowledge I've got that gives me a good career. I didn't realise I was wasting my time and I could get (...) (25 years ago, 15-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   I have not read them in many moons, I will have to do so again soon. Thanks for the reference, Larry. Scott Sanburn (...) (25 years ago, 15-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   Simon & All; Based on the conversations I have read regarding these issues (health care, right of, etc.), and Larry's views (Libertarian), I think a lot of you are missing Larry's point as well as my own. If you compare what the founding Fathers (...) (25 years ago, 15-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   <unsnipped because its a commendable effort> Scott Edward Sanburn wrote in message <378DE654.1582693A@a...ng.com>... (...) care, (...) Papers, (...) Yep. Its really out of hand. (...) this (...) scaled (...) Republicans (...) we (...) Similar, yep. (...) (25 years ago, 15-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   John, Thanks for the kind words, John. I usually don't get many in this forum! Oh, believe me, I am sick of some Republicans as well simply because of there non-difference to liberals and Democrats (Decept-o-crats around here) as well. With Social (...) (25 years ago, 15-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   Scott Edward Sanburn wrote in message <378DF799.9B923A@aeieng.com>... (...) As a conservative, I never got many kind words in any forum! but I am young. (...) there (...) well. (...) incomprehensible (...) 25) (...) Right, since you aren't going to (...) (25 years ago, 15-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) That depends on what you mean by 'just like that.' I figure that someone with determination can go from being an average highschool graduate to an employable IT professional of some type in a couple years. (...) If you call programming windows (...) (25 years ago, 15-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   (...) I'm not speaking for Larry here, but some Libertarians agree that the government is big and needs to be scaled back, but don't believe that the original concept of our government is without flaw. I would be gladdened by what you suggest, but (...) (25 years ago, 15-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) What about children? Congenital birth defect? Irresponsible parents? (Aint it always the hard questions that are so hard?) (25 years ago, 15-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   Chris, (...) I would disagree with your definition of democracy in terms of minorities being pushed around, but I think that everyone should be treated the same in terms of law, etc. I don't think anyone deserves special treatment for anything. OK, (...) (25 years ago, 15-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   (...) Republican == Democrat Don't ever forget that. "A difference which makes no difference is no difference." Steve (25 years ago, 15-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   Amen. You don't have to guess to hard, I am different. Scott Sanburn (...) (25 years ago, 15-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) Ha ha! Good point. Actually these days I write about it rather than program it, which is a lot more fun :) (...) true - I've got a lot more than that - but see my point below. (...) The point about it was I felt that the way you simply implied (...) (25 years ago, 15-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   Scott- As a fellow Christian, I am curious as to which ideas of the LP you find unchristian. -John (...) (25 years ago, 16-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) Hrmmm. "if the Government doesn't spend some money to make sure that people get the opportunity..." Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. Pursuit. Think about what that means. It doesn't mean that you receive a gift or some other (...) (25 years ago, 16-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: learning languages (was: Re: Perl rules!)   (...) job security baby. Hey, did you hear about the new Object Oriented COBOL? It's true. They've come up with a name for it! ADD 1 TO COBOL. (25 years ago, 16-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: What happened?   (...) I agree that the hard questions (and the fringe effects) are hard. Libertopia isn't perfect. But I'd submit that we're better off with some fringe unfortunate outcomes instead of every single person in the US getting 1/2 their income on (...) (25 years ago, 16-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) So I suppose that you're going to say that National Socialism wasn't fascism because it said it wasn't? I'd say the lot of them are close enough, as their regimes had the requisite proportion of trampled rights and jackbooted thugs, (...) (25 years ago, 16-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   (...) I'll answer for him, leaving it open for him to answer for himself. The LP is religion neutral to the extent that it recognises that individual belief systems vary and should be respected. But it has some thoughts on behaviours that may be (...) (25 years ago, 16-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) Umm... A slowly fading rumble? -- Terry K -- (25 years ago, 16-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   Simon Robinson wrote in message ... (...) Its probably a better career than most, and its probably worth the investment. (...) temporary (...) reason (...) background (...) only (...) needed (...) me. (...) That is not true. This country (and yours, (...) (25 years ago, 16-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) I don't doubt that. I'd say the same is true in the UK. What I disagree with is your implicit assumption that just because you managed to get qualified etc. and you saw a few other people doing it, that must mean EVERYONE can, even without (...) (25 years ago, 16-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   I'll again add my "in Liberatopia, life won't suck because someone will step in and help the needy" comment to Larry's comments below: (...) I would assume that religions which feel that all potential humans should be given their chance will pool (...) (25 years ago, 16-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Perl rules!   Todd Lehman wrote in message ... (...) It's a bigger gun, letting you shoot bigger things or alternatively make a larger whole where your foot used to be. I too like Perl, also C++. But my preference is for things like Delphi, Jade or Forte when I (...) (25 years ago, 16-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   Larry, Like I said, the fetal tissue research I did not like. I think that is a BIG one. You might be surprised, Larry, but here is my views on what you said: 1) According to the Bible, Homosexuality is a sin and is detestable to God. (I can verse (...) (25 years ago, 16-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   An unlimited democracy with no bounds as to what the majority can decide is indeed flawed. Further, it's unworkable beyond a certain size, and leads to factionalism. A constitutionally limited representative or republican democracy is much better. (...) (25 years ago, 16-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) It HAS the resources, if you're referring to the one I think you are. But it spends them on grand cathedrals and imposing monasteries rather than on helping the poor. (...) Right, far easier to be self righteously charitable with other (...) (25 years ago, 16-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   (...) In what way do you disagree with my take on democracy? It's the rule of the people - by vote - so as long as 51% of the people who vote think it's OK to kill me, then politically (if not morally) it is. Right? Wrong? Libertopia would be an (...) (25 years ago, 16-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   (...) It's a simplified definition, I think you are talking about direct democracy, I was talking more of a constitutional democracy, where the people have certain rights (a.k.a. Bill of Rights) and protection from being murdered and so forth. A (...) (25 years ago, 16-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   (...) It's unfortunate that the labels have become so skewed. I am a liberal because I believe in liberty. I am not a conservative because I think the present system needs to be changed. Yet if I claim to be liberal it means I support income (...) (25 years ago, 16-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) Right, but maybe there are other fields than IT. I just picked that because lots of us are familiar with it. If you can speak clearly, you can work as a bellboy. You can wait tables. You can assemble widgets in a plant and make more than (...) (25 years ago, 16-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) Those aren't going to be the people who are most attracted to Libertopia. (25 years ago, 16-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) Nice theory and something that got debated a lot over here the last decade or so. The verdict seems to be that if the Government does nothing then businesses often don't either, even when it looks like it should be in their interests to do so. (...) (25 years ago, 16-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) Was this theory ever put to the test? Or was the verdict decided by a committee of experts? Over here, businesses finance employees' education frequently. Is it different in England? Those businesses must have a strange motive. Coal mining (...) (25 years ago, 16-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Perl rules!   (...) (heh heh) I think I'm more grossed-out than amused. I'm already grossed out enough that there are a couple ports of perl to MS platforms. IMHO, Perl belongs in Unix (and offshots like OSX) and Microshaft OS's should die horrible deaths. The (...) (25 years ago, 17-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   (...) If a Democratic government decides (ie the will of the people, the *majority*) to sanction hetereo marriages and not homosexual ones, what's wrong with that? I think a case can be made that the traditional nuclear family is a good foundation (...) (25 years ago, 17-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   Whew. Where to start? (...) It is legislating consensual behaviour. And that's wrong. No avoiding it. (...) True. So what? (...) First off, why does government have a monopoly on sanctioning marriages? Aren't they merely a contract between people? (...) (25 years ago, 17-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Perl rules!   (...) I take it you have little respect for people who develop on MS platforms for a living...? I'm not sure I should be offended. It can also be argued that Perl on a Mac is equally evil: the OS doesn't even offer a shell, and its file system is (...) (25 years ago, 17-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   (...) The *government* decides which contracts it will recognize. It has nothing to do with how you want to behave in private. (...) What about Nudists who want to walk around naked in public? Or Copulatists (I made it up-- people who want to be (...) (25 years ago, 17-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Perl rules!   (...) No, not at all! First, I support someone's choice of platform they have chosen to develop for. Second, I understand that MS platforms are the chief money makers in the microcomputer software industry, and that there's a lot to be said for (...) (25 years ago, 17-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Perl rules!   (...) Hey! I *like* seafood! What are you saying, Todd? :-D (...) I know. :-, That's why I chose the platform to pick on. (...) Okay, it's actually starting to make sense. You're morally opposed to the evilness of Windows, not its usefulness. I'm (...) (25 years ago, 17-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   (...) What gives the government the right to discriminate among contracts? It is then making a moral judgement that one sort of free will behaviour non rights damaging behaviour is better than another. Please address this fundamental point. (...) No (...) (25 years ago, 17-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Perl rules!   (...) Please. Where would we be if we had nothing but Apple and Steve "I'm a megalomaniac" Jobs to depend on? I remember hearing YEARS ago how superior the Mac was to the PC because at the time all it took to "network" a couple of Macs together was (...) (25 years ago, 17-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   (...) Assuming we step into Libertopia, and you and Ed shack up, the government ought to treat you no differently than anyone else, right? He can inherit your property when you die, etc. What about corporations? Does ACME Insurance company have to (...) (25 years ago, 17-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   (...) Free to discriminate however they choose, for any reason or no reason at all. They're not the government. The government, having a de jure monopoly on the initiation of the use of force, is not free to discriminate in any way shape or form. (...) (25 years ago, 17-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Perl rules!   (...) I don't care if MS is a money-grubbing empire as long as they make great products. The problem I have with it is that they're only making good (not great) products and that, in combination with their monopolistic nature, hurts the other guys (...) (25 years ago, 17-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Perl rules!   Sproaticus wrote in message ... (...) that (...) born (...) fun (...) My current experience with UNIX is limited to IBM's AIX, but I find it infinitely more painful to use than Windows for some of the following reasons: X-Windows: sorry, in many (...) (25 years ago, 18-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Perl rules!   (...) Yah, no argument there. I prefer the Windows 4 GUI over almost anything else (1), and I can run a wide range of apps on my NT box. But, I know the difference between reliability and popularity, and for mission-critical apps where down time (...) (25 years ago, 18-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Godiva Ice Cream (Was: Perl rules!)   (...) This I need to hear more about. Is it available in the grocery store, or do I need to visit a Godiva-only store? (...) Yah. I think he was shingling his roof. Loudly. At 1:30 AM. And from the sound of his voice, he seemed more than a little (...) (25 years ago, 18-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)      Re: Godiva Ice Cream (Was: Perl rules!)   (...) I just stumbled across it in the regular local grocery store. I was trying to find where they'd moved the Ben & Jerry's to, and -- pow -- there it was, staring at me, begging to be bought! I think there were 2 or 3 flavors (all (...) (25 years ago, 18-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)      special boxes was Re: Godiva Ice Cream (Was: Perl rules!)   Don't forget to mail me, Todd, with Jambalaya synchronization details!!! (...) (25 years ago, 18-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)      The Continuing Desecration of Perl, or, www.perl.com (Was: Perl rules!)   AAAAAAAAGH! Has anyone seen what they've done to www.perl.com today!?!?!? They've dumbed it down! It's absolutely *LOADED* with O'Reilly logos and ads! Perl is the tree, and the dog pack of O'Reilly and Associates just pissed on it! I'm more afraid (...) (25 years ago, 18-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   (...) The gov is of the people, by the people and for the people. If that's what the people want, what's wrong with that? By judging their moral judgments, aren't *you* making a moral judgment? (...) Or, if you must walk around naked, don't do it (...) (25 years ago, 18-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Perl rules!   (...) Well, I think you're not going to find much love for AIX anywhere. (...) Oh my. I personally like the ability to at least have case retained, but can go either way on whether opening a file is case sensitive. But passwords sure as hell should (...) (25 years ago, 18-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: What happened?   (...) I thought we was comparing the US Economy to that of Europe's. Ireland's economy is improving because of the peace agreement - money is flooding in because it won't get blown up by terrorist ground strikes. Germany however and to squeeze it's (...) (25 years ago, 18-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) We can resist without guns you know, have you heard of the marching season in Ireland - some go through opposition housing estates such as the Orange marches through Catholic estates. Sometimes there is massive resistance of the petrol bomb (...) (25 years ago, 18-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) I'm not sure you can really compare the US economy to Europe's since Europe still doesn't really have a single economy - after all isn't that one of the problems the Euro is having? We've got some countries doing well and some countries not (...) (25 years ago, 19-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   (...) OK - I'll bite on that one. I would agree that the traditional nuclear family as a good foundation on which to build a stable society. However, I can't see any reason why a family with - say - two gay men at its head shouldn't be equally good, (...) (25 years ago, 19-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   (...) folly of allowing a (...) owner to open a (...) crime, etc.) (...) That one is possibly a bad example - since arguably if you open a brothel in a residential neighbourhood you are affecting the rights of the people who live around there - (...) (25 years ago, 19-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   <3790D4A4.AC909B52@voyager.net> <379164EC.11208B2B@uswest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John, you're being inconsistent. Let me summarize the points I'm making again rather than interspersing (...) (25 years ago, 19-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (I haven't responded to some points because this posting was getting ridiculously long :) ) (...) You're still putting the emphasis on 'choose' whereas I'm trying to point out that sometimes it's not a question of choice as unsufficient knowledge or (...) (25 years ago, 19-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) Well that certainly explains why the US and Britain diverged so much after WW II, with the US stagnating and Britain going on to happy shiny people ville. Or why the PRC with so many many people and so much land is so much more advanced in its (...) (25 years ago, 19-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   (...) You'll have to pardon my ignorance. I am really trying to understand what you are saying. (...) Ok, I buy that. Who, would you say, determines or is qualified to determine which is superior? (...) I am confused. Are we talking about moral (...) (25 years ago, 19-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   (...) First, explain to me how 2 gay men "create" a family. Not possible. Unless, you say, if they adopt. In my perfect world, there would be no children for such "couples" to adopt, because orphaned children would be care for by immediate family (...) (25 years ago, 19-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Perl rules!   Todd Lehman wrote in message ... (...) OK, I'd class those as incompetent rather than poor. Not that I'm pedantic at all. (...) Most likely, as I'm good at misunderstanding things like that. It sounded to me as though you were tending towards saying (...) (25 years ago, 19-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: What happened?   You were getting on about how great Europe is compared to the US. My point is that the US economy, having just went through a period of some deregulation, and a period in which a number of new industries sprang up faster than the government could (...) (25 years ago, 19-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   <3792817C.F236D232@voyager.net> <3792A1E5.40255C5D@uswest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) I am. You are. In fact I give criteria below. This turns on innate goodness vs. evil, but one germane (...) (25 years ago, 19-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   To all (Larry & Chris and others); Ugh. Let me see if I can clear up what appears to be people's confusion about me. (...) In today's terms, yes. I think the system needs to be changed, and I don't support income transfer. (...) I would say I am (...) (25 years ago, 19-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   (...) I think environmental protection and animal "rights" are harder than defense to privatize. In fact, I think defense is relatively easy. Probably easier than roads. (25 years ago, 19-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   (...) I'm totally lost. Could you clarify, Chris? (I should have gotten more sleep last night!) (...) Isn't a mob rule like 500 people outside a building, for example, demanding a hanging? (...) Most corporations and government agencies do illegal (...) (25 years ago, 19-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   (...) Like David Koresh? (...) I think that Mob Rule is where we are now...oh yeah, that is a representative democracy. (...) Fetal testing or murder? Both, I guess. (...) I do not support those things either. But here's how I view the words (...) (25 years ago, 19-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      The Ozarks (was: Re: What happened?)   (...) What? I've never been to Springfield (though they do have the region's best wine shop, so I keep meaning to go) but I've looked at maps and I'd think it was inside the range of Ozarks near the Western edge. What do you mean? Most of Southern (...) (25 years ago, 19-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   (...) You were assuring me that this wonderful democracy works to protect the lives of the citizens, I think. You said "I was talking more of a constitutional democracy, where the people have certain rights (a.k.a. Bill of Rights) and protection (...) (25 years ago, 19-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) OK. (...) The Republic of Ireland has always been poorer than Northern Ireland, one of the reasons people in NI want to stay part of the UK. Bombings appeared both sides of the border, just because none have occured in the last year doesn't (...) (25 years ago, 19-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) I'd strongly dispute that. Business cycles have been happening for centuries, since long before Governments started interventionist economic policies. To a large extent those interventionist policies in many countries started in response to (...) (25 years ago, 20-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   (...) you (...) hetereo (...) that's (...) I believe I asked you to justify what could be inferior about 2 gay men as the head of a family unit, not simply to restate the fact that you believed that :) (...) I can't see any difference - as long as (...) (25 years ago, 20-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   (...) I'd go along with that. I'm not too happy with the idea of positive discrimination. Occasionally it can bring about benefits if it's applied for a limited period of time - eg. in order to make sure that there are enough members of some group (...) (25 years ago, 20-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   (...) Ok, fine. I think a child deserves to have a mother and a father. Doesn't matter how much a man can care for a child, a woman does it differently, in a way a man can't. And vice versa. I guess I never analyzed the reason very closely, it just (...) (25 years ago, 20-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   (...) So, something is better than nothing. Yes, but I'm having a tough time figuring a scenario where no hetereo couples would be available. (...) (25 years ago, 20-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   (...) {:-0 Well excuuuse me;-) Didn't know if you were simply toting the party line, or if what you are debating was *yours* (...) If you are referring to zoning laws, then yes. Perhaps it is immoral and flawed, but the obvious benefit outweighs (...) (25 years ago, 20-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   (...) A joke from the comedy movie "Airplane!"(1). Something along the lines of "Surely, you must be joking!" "No, I'm not. And stop calling me Shirley!" Not exactly what is said, but that is the idea. -- Terry K -- 1. If you haven't seen it, it is (...) (25 years ago, 20-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   Scott: The fact that you and I have to explain what we mean by L and C merely proves the point (which we are in violent agreement on, by the way) that definitions have been skewed all out of recognizability. I have only inconsequentially minor (...) (25 years ago, 20-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: The Ozarks (was: Re: What happened?)   (...) Based on what else I saw, there's a scary thought. :-) (...) It's the Ozark MOUNTAINS, right? I didn't see anything higher than a slight hill while I was in Springfield. Hence my gibe. (25 years ago, 20-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Perl rules!   (...) The 1000-line limit in LEdit was a programming limitation. Nothing to do with anything evil in the OS, unless you consider lack of virtual memory evil (rather than just bad). Was the 8.3 file format originated with MS or DOS? I thought it was (...) (25 years ago, 20-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   <37936594.15C0AA85@c...souri.edu> <379414EC.A40DFA0F@uswest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) Well, I know there are a bunch of kids being raised as wards of the state instead of with loving (...) (25 years ago, 20-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: The Ozarks (was: Re: What happened?)   (...) Gotcha. Sorry for my density. They were once mountains...biguns too...at least that's what they tell us. (25 years ago, 20-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Perl rules!   [removed lugnet.off-topic.debate from crosspost list] (...) I'd say, back in 1983, the lack of virtual memory and the 640KB limit was no big deal (in the PC industry). By 1989, it was becoming unfortunate. By 1991, it was getting really bad. And by (...) (25 years ago, 20-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Perl rules!   (...) And why did IBM stick all the ROM and system stuff in high memory (>640K), rather than low memory? If they had done that, it would have been (more) possible to extend the address space without totally losing backwards compatibility. Or if (...) (25 years ago, 20-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Perl rules!   (...) Wait a minute. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but the segmented memory architecture allowed you to create absolutely *tiny* programs that did wonderful things. And you could fit tons of these programs on an affordable *floppy* disk. I (...) (25 years ago, 20-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Perl rules!   (...) CP/M, I think. My TRS 80 model 1 which used an OS (called DOS)(1) which was CP/M derived, had it. 1 - once you started running the floppy. Before that you were just in the ROM BASIC interpreter all the time. I had 2 floppies. 11 hundred bucks (...) (25 years ago, 20-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Perl rules!   (...) A little exercise every day should take care of that, Lar. :-P Cheers, - jsproat (25 years ago, 20-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   (...) matter (...) man (...) just (...) Hmmm - I have to admit to being impressed there. That's about the first time I can ever remember seeing someone write down a reason for gay couples not adopting which sounds vaguely plausible, thought out, and (...) (25 years ago, 20-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Terry Keller writes: Got you now. Yes I have seen Airplane twice and I recall the joke now. Quite a good film. Simon (URL) (...) (25 years ago, 20-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Perl rules!   Don Heyse wrote in message ... (...) What, Eighteen Megs And Constantly Swapping? Ever tried putting emacs on anything smaller than a CD? (...) Apparently the latest Caldera is quite good for that - all-GUI install, no reboots and autodetection of (...) (25 years ago, 21-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Perl rules!   (...) Well, I've been running Emacs on a P150 system with 643MB harddisk for three years now. That's smaller than a CD, right? Or were you refering to transporting the Emacs sources on a CD? I've used a set of 1440KB disks to do that. I needed eight (...) (25 years ago, 21-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Perl rules!   (...) I do, quite regularly. Windows NT 4.0, Service Pack 5. The last reboot was about two weeks ago when I upgraded from SP3 to SP5; before then, my workstation was up for about three weeks. I have a cow-orker who's had Linux up without a reboot (...) (25 years ago, 21-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Perl rules!   (...) How did the segmented architecture enable the creation of tiny programs? (...) So? This is SVGA, and most video cards seem to not offer 4-bit color modes in resolutions above 800x600. So LDraw will happily work in modes that most video cards (...) (25 years ago, 21-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Perl rules!   (...) Relative pointers in the same segment take up half as much space as a 32 bit pointer. Depending on what you're doing, the savings here can be considerable. .COM programs used nothing but relative pointers and fit in less than 1 64K segment. (...) (25 years ago, 21-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Perl rules!   (...) I, too, am a card-carrying member of the Bloat Crew. I was going to get a Bloat Crew poster for the occasion, 'cause the feature set on those babies looks like it'd be a lot of fun, but I couldn't fit it into my car. Cheers, - jsproat (25 years ago, 22-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)      Re: Perl rules!   Under duress in lugnet.off-topic.fun, Jeremy "Bloat" Sproat has confessed to writing: (...) I saw the bloat crew the other day. They were working on a stretch of I-80 right near Albany (California). There was an amazing bloat almost hidden behind (...) (25 years ago, 22-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) There you go again, mixing theory with practice. In _theory_, someone/some committee _with all the information_ making decisions can do better (as measured by the utilitarian principle) than the free market. Much in the same way that in (...) (25 years ago, 22-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) No kidding? Man, you're weird. (...) And? Nothing wroing with ad hominem attacks, if you can support them properly with your arguments. If they can't, it's just more ammunition to use against them. Win/win situation, really.. Jasper (25 years ago, 22-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) That, I suppose, is the problem with the argument that those who deserve will get medical care through charity. You have too much faith in humanity. Jasper (25 years ago, 22-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) No. Nice try though. (...) So you're conceding the rights based argument, then? Good. (...) No. In THEORY it's impossible for any finite committee to outperform (that is, out allocate) the market, unless they have more information than the (...) (25 years ago, 22-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) No, you have too little. I give more by proportion because I think about what it means a bit more. Change society to encourage the behaviours you want and you won't be relying on those like me who have indomitable will and faith in goodness, (...) (25 years ago, 22-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Perl rules!   (...) OK, relative-addressing mode is good. But it doesn't require segmented memory. All it requires is an instruction format with a defined result. For example, the conditional-jump instructions on the 6502 microprocessor[1] only used relative (...) (25 years ago, 22-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Perl rules!   (...) Perhaps you're right, but that jump instruction is relative to the Instruction Pointer which uses a full register. The segmented way you are relative to a segment which only uses half a register. You can take advantage of this half register (...) (25 years ago, 22-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Perl rules!   (...) OK, at this point I'll have to take your word for it. The segmented address still seems like a high price to pay for a half-register. (...) Maybe this is the case in LEdit -- I don't have knowledge of that source code. But in LDraw, the (...) (25 years ago, 22-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Perl rules!   (...) That's a good suggestion. Especially because it's something I can make LDAO do. As opposed to some really nifty suggestions I've received which would require changing LDLite, or would be so processing-intensive that they aren't practical. (...) (25 years ago, 22-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, lugnet.cad.dev)      Re: Perl rules!   (...) I don't have source to LEdit either, but I used to write CAD software for a living around that time. We used all sorts of colormap manipulating tricks to speed up the rendering. These tricks just don't work in fixed color modes. You have to (...) (25 years ago, 22-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Perl rules!   (...) You realise what the cost differential you're talking about is, don't you? If IBM had used 68k rather than x86, there's a much better chance today the lucky few would have macs, rather than everybody and his dog having a PC. (...) Yeah. I (...) (25 years ago, 22-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Perl rules!   (...) Well, there's the cause for your stability: Who would want to use a server named barney? ;-) Cheers, - jsproat (25 years ago, 22-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Perl rules!   (...) Actually, it would have been a hell of a lot easier, given that you at elast have homogeneous address space. But you do need to rewrite the kernel to be able to access it at all, and we all know how fast MS is at that sorta thing.. (...) And (...) (25 years ago, 22-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Perl rules!   (...) Uptime wars! barney:/etc$ uptime 9:31pm up 96 days, 9:27, 1 user, load average: 0.13, 0.03, 0.01 barney:/etc$ Jasper (25 years ago, 22-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: learning languages (was: Re: Perl rules!)   (...) FORTRAN in the same sentence as clean and efficient, without a negative. *shakes head* must be a misparse. Jasper (25 years ago, 22-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Perl rules!   (...) What demand? Intel and MS _created_ much of todays' demand for computing. They did this to make money. Why do you think another software company other than MS would have been any better? I know you're intelligent, so I'm not prepared to (...) (25 years ago, 22-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Perl rules!   (...) Much as I would like to believe that sometimes IBM and MS are capable of creating something (1), this is one thing they simply grabbed and ran with. The *need* was already there; they simply told consumers that the *want* was there, only a few (...) (25 years ago, 22-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Perl rules!   (...) Our chief weapon is Open Source. And freedom. Our two chief weapons are Open Source, freedom, and emacs. Oh. Our three chief weapons are Open Source, freedom, emacs, and vim. Oh, sod it. Jasper "Nobody expects... Richard Stallman!" Janssen (25 years ago, 22-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Perl rules!   (...) From what I've heard, neither can NT, really. Especially since IE tends to store its cache in user space, which then gets transported right around campus over the network everry time someone logs on... Combine that with the 10 Mb ethernet (...) (25 years ago, 22-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Perl rules!   (...) *shake* not quite true. HAve you ever learned a language foreign to you? I'v ebeen lucky enough to learn English as virtually a second mother language (early start, mostly), but I've also learnt French, German, Latin and ancient Greek (to (...) (25 years ago, 22-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Perl rules!   (...) You haven't seen Novell's Zenworks, I take it. It allows this for NT, 95, 98, yadda yadda yadda. (URL) Especially since IE (...) This is actually a network design issue, not a platform issue. Cheers, - jsproat (25 years ago, 22-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   (...) I've been following this phenomenon for a while: (URL) interesting to note that this was noticed back in February, as well: (URL) suspect the newsserver isn't handling the references for extremely large threads properly. Cheers, - jsproat (25 years ago, 22-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   On Mon, 19 Jul 1999 01:38:04 GMT, Larry Pieniazek <lar@voyager.net> wrote in .debate: (...) B (...) This is an interesting References: manglement.. is it a Mozilla problem, or did Todd's newsserver screw up somewhere? Interesting it is mainly (...) (25 years ago, 22-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   (...) You know, every time I see this world I get bad associations. It reminds me of dystopia (regardless of my actual opinion of the described world). Jasper (25 years ago, 22-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   On Tue, 20 Jul 1999 23:14:52 GMT, "Simon Robinson" <simon@simonrobinson.com> wrote: <snip child deserves a mother and a father> (...) You've never heard _that_ old tired argument before? I've been beaten around the head with it so often it's getting (...) (25 years ago, 22-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   (...) So what do you want? Total anarchy? That's minorities pushing majorities around again. Being pushed around is a natural state of being for humankind. Maybe one day we'll grow out of it, but it'll be another few centuries at the _very_ least. (...) (25 years ago, 22-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   (...) In one sense, yes. In another, hell no. Defense _cannot_ be privatised, _especially_ not in Liberdystopia. The then-privatised DoD would not only no longer be under direct government control, but it would have to compete with others. I for one (...) (25 years ago, 22-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Perl rules!   (...) Hrmmm, some stuff gets transported, yes, but it would be relatively easy to severely limit cache size in the first place, even if you couldn't turn off zapping it over the net entirely, which I think you can. (...) Heh, I wish all our network (...) (25 years ago, 23-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Perl rules!   Sorry I came in late on this, but I just had to make my mark on the uber-thread. :^) (...) I use MacPerl under Apple's Macinosh Programmer's Workshop, a shell environment available for free from Apple. I use Perl on my Mac to develop a couple (...) (25 years ago, 24-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   You prolly think that men and women are equal, too. (...) Where is it written that all gays are implicitly wonderful, loving parents? Talk about stereotypes. -John "extinguishing the flames of stupidity" Neal (...) (25 years ago, 24-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Perl rules!   (...) Not sure what Mac you have, so it's hard to know if this machine is (or was) cheaper, but my wife's P2-350 can do all those (although she doesn't do 1 + 2). We have Photoshop with 2 different scanners (flatbed HP and HP negative/slide (...) (25 years ago, 24-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   Jasper Janssen wrote: <someone else said democracy is the majority pushing minorities around> (...) Oh, I get it. The choices according to you are: - the majority thumps the minority over the head with a stick - everyone with a stick tries to thump (...) (25 years ago, 24-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Perl rules!   (...) I'm use a hand-me-down PM6100 (60MHz 601) that I've added memory and an L2 cache to, say $150 total. We also have a substantially more expensive Power Computing box (CPU was about $1400 in '97, we've added other stuff since then). (...) This (...) (25 years ago, 25-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   Larry Pieniazek wrote: 1 - reminds me of an old joke. (...) I'll bite. -John (25 years ago, 25-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   (...) Q: "What's the difference between Communism and Fascism?" A: "Under Fascism, Man exploits Man. Under Communism, it's the other way round." (25 years ago, 25-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)      Re: learning languages (was: Re: Perl rules!)   (...) It's a relative thing. Back then, Algol 60 hadn't even been developed, and FORTRAN hadn't been muddied up with more stuff. (why, I remember when I had to do my programs on punched cards... once you punch it. there's NO undo!... and I had to (...) (25 years ago, 25-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Perl rules!   (...) Ok, so asking for a cheaper machine than a hand-me-down is a bit misleading, don't you think? I could just as easily say that Rachael's P2-350 was a hand-me-down for her (since it was) because it used to be my machine. In fact, since it hasn't (...) (25 years ago, 25-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      "Why, in my day..."   (...) Heh heh, I think I remember hearing about someone who took a precision knife to a punched and changed a D into an E by altering the lowest order bit. IIRC, punched cards were easier to do that sort of thing to than paper tape because punched (...) (25 years ago, 25-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   (...) Microsoft called. They want to know where to submit their proposal for MS-DoD. Steve "I'd go Canada if Bill G. got control" Bliss (25 years ago, 25-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Perl rules!   On Thu, 22 Jul 1999 22:46:46 GMT, Sproaticus <jsproat@io.com> wrote: <roving desktops> (...) Well, I was trying to make a joke. Sorry, weong group, I know. (...) The problem isn't that the network can't handle the load, it's that it shouldn't _have_ (...) (25 years ago, 26-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: What happened?   On Mon, 19 Jul 1999 12:05:48 GMT, Larry Pieniazek <lar@voyager.net> wrote: You know, up til now, what you said made at least a modicum of sense. (...) Business cycles have _nothing_ to do with government interventions. There have been documented (...) (25 years ago, 26-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) Have you ever heard of the concept "Jobs are not plentiful"? Apparently not. Life for a working-class man in the 60's and 70s, especially with a child going through university, is not a picnic, and quitting usually just Is Not An Option. (...) (25 years ago, 26-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) Says who? The mere fact that I choose to make a post focusing on one side of the argument does not mean I concede the other. Far from it. The trouble is, we both start from opposite views of what is a right and what is not, and therefore, (...) (25 years ago, 26-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?   (...) I take it you mean no taxes at all anymore, so your income would rise? More like profits would go up for business, IMHO, but that aside. (...) For one thing, abolishing all taxes and what gets paid by it wouldn't triple my income, it would (...) (25 years ago, 26-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) Yeah, right. "Hello, this is .. oh, I don't have a name yet, but call me Charles, calling from the womb. I need health insurance just in case I get a birth defect". Jasper (25 years ago, 26-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Perl rules!   (...) You're not thinking of the same kind of environment. I have to provide hundreds of workstations for tens of thousands of casual users. There's no such thing as a "local" anything when those users move around and use random machines at random (...) (25 years ago, 26-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   (...) And under Capitalism it's the first way round again. Jasper (25 years ago, 26-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)      Re: Perl rules!   (...) Barney as in "Fred &", BTW, not as in "should die!!1!!!11!". Jasper (25 years ago, 26-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Perl rules!   (...) Here, lemme help ya... $h0u1d D13!!!!!11!!1 Vb$cR1pT r00L3z!!!111!! hAcK3d bY $uP3r uUaK3 D3aTh K00L hAcK3rZ!!!!!111!!!11!! k3An3U rRE33vE$ 1s g0d!!!...!!!1 :-P Cheers, - jsproat (25 years ago, 26-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Mac and NT networking (was: Re: Perl rules!)   (...) Whoever pointed out Zenworks was right. It's magic. And the Mac can too. I'm not our primary Mac person anymore so I don't know all the details but using MacIPX and Dave and maybe something else, they appear just as another workstation on the (...) (25 years ago, 26-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      OS advocacy (was: Re: Perl rules!)   (...) Right, I think it's a bad argument tactic to suggest that Macs are cheaper than Intel hardware. It just ain't so. But, they are faster, more reliable, easier to use, easier to maintain, less reliant on MS (which matters to some), and home to (...) (25 years ago, 26-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   (...) Larry, As a father, how do you avoid the use of force? (pushing kids around) (25 years ago, 26-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   On Thu, 22 Jul 1999 22:51:36 GMT, Sproaticus <jsproat@io.com> wrote: References: <376D7261.634B7347@bigfoot.com> <3777AA6F.E773F137@voyager.net> <3777CD7E.FE00DE15@a...state.edu> <3777F1EB.550FEE59@c...souri.edu> <37782AF6.A05C00BC@a...state.edu> (...) (25 years ago, 26-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Perl rules!   (...) I've heard a sysadmin rant about how IE & NT Do Not Approve of that. He apparently was getting it set back to default automatically. Very weird, but then again, NT is weird. I'll take `vi sendmail.cf` over "Start, Configuration, Configuration (...) (25 years ago, 26-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Perl rules!   (...) Exactly. There is such a thing as local, but it only lasts the session. Therefore, a local cache should not persist beyond the session. You could possibly supplement that with a smaller (as server diskspace is a hell of a lot more expensive (...) (25 years ago, 26-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: OS advocacy (was: Re: Perl rules!)   (...) No. They are neither faster, nor cheaper, nor faster per unit of currency spent. It used to be, back in the glory days of PowerPC, that the fastest Mac boxes beat the fastest Intel boxes. Not any more. You do realise that the fastest Intel box (...) (25 years ago, 26-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   (...) Where did I talk about anything but stereotypes? *muttermustreallybel...gegrumble* Jasper (25 years ago, 26-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   (...) So call me a pessimist. (...) Ad hominem? Sorry, but "Libertopia (might equal) dystopia (as easily as) utopia" is hardly an ad hominem. It is directed at the word, not the man. Anyway, that aside.. I haven't yet seen you, or any other (...) (25 years ago, 26-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Perl rules!   (...) Your name is Neo, and I claim my 31337 h@x0r toolkit. Jasper (25 years ago, 26-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: OS advocacy (was: Re: Perl rules!)   (...) Unfortunately, there's raw speed and then there's effective speed. Today's Windows machine takes anywhere from 2 to 5 minutes to boot, in my experience. And from what I've seen, Macs aren't any better. Does anyone here remember the Apple ][ ? (...) (25 years ago, 26-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   (...) It makes an actual NNTP connection (no voodoo) and doesn't limit the length of the References field via the HTML form or anything like that. (...) I didn't modify any of those parts of CNews. --Todd (25 years ago, 26-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: What happened?   (...) That's one of us, anyway. <zing> Just kidding. (...) Sorry, I forgot. There wasn't government back in 1503, and it didn't meddle in the economy either. How silly of me. (...) Trust me, government intervention wasn't done for god's sake, it was (...) (25 years ago, 26-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) Why were these jobs hard to come by? Perhaps it had something to do with the government meddling in the economy trying to make jobs easy to come by... It's always easy to try to explain away courses of action after the fact by citing excuses. (...) (25 years ago, 26-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) Your example is spurious. My kids were covered before they were born... under as private an insurance system as I could find at the time. And if they had had birth defects that prebirth testing could have discovered, we would not have had (...) (25 years ago, 26-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: OS advocacy (was: Re: Perl rules!)   (...) Faster? In what way, running what apps? Sorry, but having used everything from the original lunchbox to the latest blue+white G3 on the Mac side and everything from the 8086 to a fully tripped-out P3-550, it ain't so. Maybe at various times (...) (25 years ago, 27-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: What happened?   (...) So you are arguing that if you remove all Government intervention, then there won't be any business cycles? You are also apparently arguing that there has always been Government intervention? You appear to have argued yourself into a corner, (...) (25 years ago, 27-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) No empirical evidence that's definitive, but theoretical proofs exist, (and not based on invisible heat sorting demons or market information communicators). Further, the less intervention there is, the longer the booms last and the less severe (...) (25 years ago, 27-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   (...) Apparently Lugnuts aren't easily duped into such thinly veiled trolls <except me> Me: FISHED IN, FISHED IN;-) -John (...) (25 years ago, 27-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) Well if you believe you can point us to a theoretical proof I'd be interested to see it (seriously). I'd have to say however that I'd be extremely sceptical of any proofs, because. (1) The theory of the free market relies on a number of (...) (25 years ago, 27-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: OS advocacy (was: Re: Perl rules!)   (...) I frankly don't know all the specs of all the machines around, but WRT the machines that I have around, I can count on the Macs being ~30% more expensive and a variable amount faster in ways that I find important. I've been using SETI@home as (...) (25 years ago, 27-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: OS advocacy (was: Re: Perl rules!)   (...) Well, that's a good point. I could buy a prebuilt machine that matches that G3's specs for $1626. Basically the same machine I just ordered for myself at work minus the 21" monitor. And I won't have to buy a real keyboard and mouse in addition (...) (25 years ago, 27-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: OS advocacy (was: Re: Perl rules!)   <slrn7ppuk6.1g6.cjc@...S.UTK.EDU> <379DDDC3.86F71E58@c...souri.edu> <slrn7prp5p.1m8.cjc@...S.UTK.EDU> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) Wait. I missed something. So you can spend $2800 piecing together (...) (25 years ago, 27-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: OS advocacy (was: Re: Perl rules!)   (...) No, what I meant, even if it didn't come through clearly, was that if I were to choose to spend $2800 on a computer (which I would not NEED to do, unless I wanted a true behemoth of a machine) I could put one together that would outperform, in (...) (25 years ago, 28-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: OS advocacy (was: Re: Perl rules!)   <379E1341.88686655@c...souri.edu> <slrn7pst1h.1om.cjc@...S.UTK.EDU> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) Oh my! I've been here at MU for eight years and we haven't seen either extreme that you've watched. (...) (25 years ago, 28-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   (...) Hm. (...) Odd. Maybe it's just an interaction between CNews and Netscape, then - the servers at my ISP run Diablo on linux and <something> on Solaris, respectively. Jasper (25 years ago, 2-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Hey Jasper, you there? ( Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]   Is something up with dynip.com?? I am getting mail bounces from both my mail accounts trying to mail Jasper there. Jasper Janssen wrote: <usual babble> (25 years ago, 2-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: OS advocacy (was: Re: Perl rules!)   (...) Let us know how it goes, won't you? I've heard others say the 366 can be reliably clocked to 550, but I'm skeptical right now. I do assume you're talking Mendocinos here? Jasper (25 years ago, 5-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: OS advocacy (was: Re: Perl rules!)   (...) Celerons. And it didn't work. I'm sure there ARE 366's that will oc to 550 just fine, especially since I could buy pre-tested ones that are guaranteed to run stable, but all 5 of the ones a friend at a store tried either wouldn't post at all (...) (25 years ago, 5-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)      (canceled)        Xerox GUI ideas vs. Apple GUI ideas (Was: Perl rules!)   (...) I finally got around to remembering to report on this. Of all places, I saw this theory posed in (my autographed copy of :-) the book _Just Java_, 4th Edition by Peter van der Linden, on page 341 (light relief after chapter 13 on Applets). To (...) (25 years ago, 9-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Xerox GUI ideas vs. Apple GUI ideas (Was: Perl rules!)   (...) You can say many things about Wired [1], but at least they have an online archive. The above is available at: -> (URL) Cheers, (...) :: paul [1] such as it's gone from being an essential geek read to far too business orientated and obsessed (...) (25 years ago, 9-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: Xerox GUI ideas vs. Apple GUI ideas (Was: Perl rules!)   (...) searching. Now if only the Communications of the ACM were freely available online...! Anyone know what the heck "Interactions 1.3" is? Cheers, - jsproat (25 years ago, 9-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)      Re: What happened?   (...) But if it's blue, it might be on sale. Yuck! Chris (24 years ago, 29-Jul-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)      Re: What happened?   (...) was (...) This might sound silly, but it just occured to me as interesting that while we have made it illegal to revolt, we have core rules that encourage revolution. Jefferson certainly seems to have thought that periodic revolutions is a (...) (23 years ago, 28-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

©2005 LUGNET. All rights reserved. - hosted by steinbruch.info GbR