Subject:
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Re: What happened?
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Fri, 16 Jul 1999 16:42:29 GMT
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Reply-To:
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c576653@cclabsSPAMCAKE.missouri.edu
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Viewed:
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1044 times
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Simon Robinson wrote:
>
> > What is your goal with this smart-ass muleshit? Lots of people make
> > sacrifices in order to educate themselves. Lots of others don't.
> > People may do as they choose, but stop whining for the ones who choose
> > not to.
>
> The point about it was I felt that the way you simply implied that people
> could just go off and get IT skills was simplistic and ignored a lot
> of the complications. For example, as you point out I've got a lot more
Right, but maybe there are other fields than IT. I just picked that
because lots of us are familiar with it. If you can speak clearly, you
can work as a bellboy. You can wait tables. You can assemble widgets
in a plant and make more than school teachers. There are lots of jobs
available. At least over here.
> Not everyone has those advantages. You talk about people choosing not to
> educate themselves, but if the Government doesn't spend some money to
> make sure that people get the opportunity then a lot of people won't have
> that opportunity to get any skills.
OK, I'm not on a holy war against public schools. People who pay
attention can get a job.
> > So? It is not inappropriate that those willing to give up one thing
> > (emotional security) should be able to get something else (higher pay)
> > for it.
>
> But presumably the fact that you believe it's worth while to move means
> you are getting a lot more money, even after tax - so what's the problem?
> Besides wouldn't it be so much nicer if people didn't have to make those
> sacrifices in the first place?
What do you mean about "What's the problem?" There is no problem. I've
made decisions and I live with them. It would be nicer if people didn't
steal. I don't see that happening either. The world isn't all about
being nice. What's there is there and we work with it.
> > So? You made a choice. You could have chosen otherwise.
>
> But I don't feel it was a choice. I really really didn't want to go on
> both occasions. But if I hadn't I'd have been unable to pay my mortgage etc.
> So I would say effectively I was forced.
I guess you were living beyond your means. I could pay my mortgage as a
crew manager at McDonalds if it came to that. It's actually cheaper
where I am to buy than to rent.
> that's an area where things would be a lot worse were it not for the UK
> Government and the EC spending money to even out regional employment
> differences and to get businesses into areas that need them. That sort
> of thing costs tax, and I don't begrudge paying taxes to help people in
> that way.
Great. I don't begrudge you people taxing the hell out of each other
either. Do what you want with your economy. I just don't want that for
my nation.
> > Paying slackers to live a life of ease isn't nice for a lot of people too.
>
> Look to be fair I'm in the UK, not the States and things might be different
> there.
I expect they are, but I don't know in what ways.
> But over here almost noone who's unemployed is a slacker. I've been
Then thing are different.
> and some self-respect, and calling them 'slackers' is not just wrong. It's
> downright offensive.
If they're willing to work, maybe they should come be a part of our
booming economy, we need good workers.
> Well so as not to sound too offensive, I'll turn that round. Even though
> I don't know you I feel a lot of responsibilities towards you. Like
> that I should treat you with some respect as a human being, I shouldn't
> do anything to hurt you unnecessarily, I should be honest to you. But I
> also feel that if there is some way in which you need help which I can
> reasonably give, then I should give it. I suspect that really you're not
> going to disagree with most of those on principle,
Well, I don't feel that I 'should' give help to anyone but those whom
I've made some kind of contract with for said assistance. If you (or I)
get off on it, then great, more power to us for being good people. But
it shouldn't be forced.
> > > If you think it's stealing, try not taking advantage of ANY of the benefits
> > Asinine. I don't have that option.
>
> You mean you'd take it if you did? If yes, I'd be interested to know
Ayup.
> how you'd intend to live, and if your answer's 'no' then what's the problem
> about not having that option?
What do you mean about how I intended to live? I'd join a federation of
road maintenance and pay tolls on the highways, and I'd work for someone
and buy groceries from (presumably) someone else, and things would be
kind of like they are now.
> You sound like you're arguing that you want complete freedom.
In an ideal world, yes. Freedom to do what I want within the bounds of
not stepping on other peoples' reasonable rights.
> Well, sorry but you don't have it. At a really silly level, your freedom
> to do whatever you want is limited by the laws of physics!
>
> Agreed?
Well, I agree that it's silly, yes.
> Well in that case, given that we accept we can't have total
> freedom, then we have to decide how to balance things out to give as many
> people as we can as much freedom as possible. You paying taxes might stop
> you spending some of your money the way you want, but everyone having to
> pay taxes
> means most people get a lot more freedom in things like being secure,
> having decent opportunities, etc. - and most people end up with much happier
> lives.
I don't think that freedom can be purchased at the cost of denying
others' freedom.
--
Sincerely,
Christopher L. Weeks
central Missouri, USA
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Message is in Reply To:
 | | Re: What happened?
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| (...) Ha ha! Good point. Actually these days I write about it rather than program it, which is a lot more fun :) (...) true - I've got a lot more than that - but see my point below. (...) The point about it was I felt that the way you simply implied (...) (25 years ago, 15-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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