Subject:
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Re: What happened?
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Thu, 15 Jul 1999 23:05:49 GMT
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Viewed:
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1047 times
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> > it took me so many years to slowly learn all the Windows programming
> > knowledge I've got that gives me a good career. I didn't realise I was
>
> If you call programming windows a _good_ career.
Ha ha! Good point. Actually these days I write about it rather than
program it, which is a lot more fun :)
> You probably have more than the basic set of skills one would need to
> get started.
true - I've got a lot more than that - but see my point below.
> > wasting my time and I could get the skills instantly. What do you do?
> > Do you just go into a shop and buy a box of C++ skills?
> > And I assume they're offered
> > at a price that you can still afford if you're on a part time or temporary
> > salary and struggling to pay your rent etc.? Cool!
>
> What is your goal with this smart-ass muleshit? Lots of people make
> sacrifices in order to educate themselves. Lots of others don't.
> People may do as they choose, but stop whining for the ones who choose
> not to.
The point about it was I felt that the way you simply implied that people
could just go off and get IT skills was simplistic and ignored a lot
of the complications. For example, as you point out I've got a lot more
programming experience than I really need to get started. But the only reason
I was able to get that far was because I already had a good research background
- I'd already been working somewhere where I had access to computers. Not only
that, but it meant I could afford to buy my own pc to learn on when I needed
to make the transition to Windows. And I had friends around who could help me.
Not everyone has those advantages. You talk about people choosing not to
educate themselves, but if the Government doesn't spend some money to
make sure that people get the opportunity then a lot of people won't have
that opportunity to get any skills.
> So? It is not inappropriate that those willing to give up one thing
> (emotional security) should be able to get something else (higher pay)
> for it.
But presumably the fact that you believe it's worth while to move means
you are getting a lot more money, even after tax - so what's the problem?
Besides wouldn't it be so much nicer if people didn't have to make those
sacrifices in the first place?
> > I've moved
> > around a few times in order to find good jobs - and just about everytime • I've
> > moved I've spent up to a year or more feeling isolated, stuck in a strange
<snip>
> So? You made a choice. You could have chosen otherwise.
But I don't feel it was a choice. I really really didn't want to go on
both occasions. But if I hadn't I'd have been unable to pay my mortgage etc.
So I would say effectively I was forced.
This is perhaps getting off the point we're arguing about since I'm not
saying that I should get tons of money for doing nothing - I'm saying that
that's an area where things would be a lot worse were it not for the UK
Government and the EC spending money to even out regional employment
differences and to get businesses into areas that need them. That sort
of thing costs tax, and I don't begrudge paying taxes to help people in
that way.
> Paying slackers to live a life of ease isn't nice for a lot of people too.
Look to be fair I'm in the UK, not the States and things might be different
there. But over here almost noone who's unemployed is a slacker. I've been
unemployed myself before now and it's no fun. It's not a life of ease -
even when you're getting unemployment benefits. The vast majority of
unemployed people are desparate to get work so they can get a decent living
and some self-respect, and calling them 'slackers' is not just wrong. It's
downright offensive.
> To steal is "to take and carry away, feloniously; to take without right
> or leave, and with intent to keep wrongfully; as, to steal the personal
> goods of another." Which part of this suggests that I am wrong?
> > We all live in a society together.
> So? What responsibility do I have to you based on this involuntary
membership?
Well so as not to sound too offensive, I'll turn that round. Even though
I don't know you I feel a lot of responsibilities towards you. Like
that I should treat you with some respect as a human being, I shouldn't
do anything to hurt you unnecessarily, I should be honest to you. But I
also feel that if there is some way in which you need help which I can
reasonably give, then I should give it. I suspect that really you're not
going to disagree with most of those on principle,
and the difference between us
is more about what counts as 'reasonable' on my last point????
> > If you think it's stealing, try not taking advantage of ANY of the benefits
> Asinine. I don't have that option.
You mean you'd take it if you did? If yes, I'd be interested to know
how you'd intend to live, and if your answer's 'no' then what's the problem
about not having that option?
You sound like you're arguing that you want complete freedom.
Well, sorry but you don't have it. At a really silly level, your freedom
to do whatever you want is limited by the laws of physics!
Agreed? Well in that case, given that we accept we can't have total
freedom, then we have to decide how to balance things out to give as many
people as we can as much freedom as possible. You paying taxes might stop
you spending some of your money the way you want, but everyone having to
pay taxes
means most people get a lot more freedom in things like being secure,
having decent opportunities, etc. - and most people end up with much happier
lives.
> > you get from paying tax. Of course you'll almost certainly have to give up
> > your job, since it's highly unlikely that your employers could continue
> I expect so, I work for the government.
:)
Simon
http://www.SimonRobinson.com
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Message has 3 Replies:
 | | Re: What happened?
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| (...) Hrmmm. "if the Government doesn't spend some money to make sure that people get the opportunity..." Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. Pursuit. Think about what that means. It doesn't mean that you receive a gift or some other (...) (25 years ago, 16-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: What happened?
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| Simon Robinson wrote in message ... (...) Its probably a better career than most, and its probably worth the investment. (...) temporary (...) reason (...) background (...) only (...) needed (...) me. (...) That is not true. This country (and yours, (...) (25 years ago, 16-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: What happened?
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| (...) Right, but maybe there are other fields than IT. I just picked that because lots of us are familiar with it. If you can speak clearly, you can work as a bellboy. You can wait tables. You can assemble widgets in a plant and make more than (...) (25 years ago, 16-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: What happened?
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| (...) That depends on what you mean by 'just like that.' I figure that someone with determination can go from being an average highschool graduate to an employable IT professional of some type in a couple years. (...) If you call programming windows (...) (25 years ago, 15-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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