Subject:
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Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Wed, 30 Jun 1999 16:44:52 GMT
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Reply-To:
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lpieniazek@novera.comSPAMCAKE
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Viewed:
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968 times
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Ed Jones wrote:
> I have a huge problem with this inane argument. Larry is avoiding the basic
> issue and circumventing it with property gibberish.
I have a huge problem with the characterisation of my cogent and lucid
statements (:-))as inane, or gibberish. Perhaps to someone who'd rather
not honor property rights and doesn't understand why property rights
matter, they're gibberish. But that's symptomatic, and Ed's making a bit
of an ad hominem attack here.
More slowly. What is medical care? It's a good. Who is going to pay for
this free medical care? Somebody certainly is, as it doesn't fall from
the sky, a gift of angels. Your right to a free good translates into a
thug taking that good, or the money to pay for it, away from someone
else. What is so hard to understand about this?
Now, if you say that I have a moral obligation to voluntarily pay, by
all means, make your case. I'll get out my checkbook and let you know
what I'm willing to freely contribute based on my evaluation of the
efficiency at which you deliver servicies and the situation of the
beneficiaries. I bet I give more of my income to charity than the
average american does, by a lot, measured either in absolute dollars or
proportionally. But I do it because of the virtues of the beneficiaries,
not because of their need. "From each according to his desire, to each
according to his virtue" might possibly fly with me, but never "ability"
or "need".
But when you say that you have a RIGHT to my earnings, you better first
be living on 2000 calories a day in a 100 square foot share of a
community shelter, walking to work and donating ALL your wages to that
cause you claim to be morally just, or you're just a thief. Bring a
really big gun.
> It is simply this - all Doctors take a Hypocratic oath - that they will provide
> medical service irregardless of the ability of the patient to pay for that
> service. The intention of that oath guarantees service to those that cannot
> afford it. From his arguements, one could only presume that all Doctors must
> be Libertarians as defined by Larry.
Thanks Chris, for the pointer to the oath, it's been a while since I
read it closely. Fascinating. I found a number of interesting points in
it, but not yours. Quoting without permission for purposes of criticism
under the fair use act:
> I SWEAR by Apollo the physician, and Aesculapius, and Health, and All-heal, and all the gods and goddesses,
-- jurisdiction is claimed for the gods to enforce this
that, according to my ability and judgement, I will keep this Oath and
this stipulation - to reckon him who taught me this Art equally dear to
me as my parents, to share my substance
with him, and relieve his necessities if required;
-- my prof at Columbia Med School has a claim on my earnings if his
stock market investments don't play out.
to look upon his offspring in the same footing as my own brothers, ant
to teach them this art, if they shall wish to learn it, without fee or
stipulation;
-- and I get to put his kids through med school on my nickel, unless I
can teach them myself
and by that precept, lecture, and every other mode of instruction, I
will impart a knowledge of the Art to my own sons, and those of my
teachers, and to disciples bound by a stipulation and oath according to
the law of medicine, but to none others.
-- my sons have to be doctors whether they want to or not (daughters
are off the hook, though) and I get to teach/finance med school for
anyone who shows up on my doorstep and takes this oath, too. I have to
keep everything I know about medicine secret from those who won't take
it.
I will follow that system of regimen which, according to my ability and
judgement, I consider for the benefit of my patients, and abstain from
whatever is deleterious and mishievious. I will give no deadly medicine
to anyone if asked, nor suggest any such counsel;
-- Dr. Kevorkian, call your office, please... So much for a patient's
right to self determination.
and in like manner I will not give to a woman a pessary to produce
abortion.
-- de jure, pessaries are out, but the spirit here is no abortions
whatever. That should warm Pat Robertson's heart, but it rather bothers
mine.
With purity and with holiness I will pass my life and practice my Art. I
will not cut persons laboring under the stone, but will leave this to be
done by men who are practioners of this work.
-- this one lost me. Is this applicable to free masons, or what?
Into whatever houses I enter, I will go into them for the benefit of the
sick, and will abstain from every voluntary act of mischief and
corruption;
-- When I am treating people or visiting their houses or hospitals,
it's with the intent to heal them, not to steal stuff.
and, further from the seduction of females or males, of freemen and
slaves.
-- and no screwing the patient's daughters (or sons, depending on
personal preference) either. Nor even a peck on the cheek, much less a
pecker. Because, remember, if I get them pregnant, I can't give them a
peccary. Or pessary. That's a pisser. (I'm such a pistol.)
Whatever, in connection with my professional practice or not, in
connection with it, I see or hear, in the life of men, which ought not
to be spoken of abroad, I will not divulge, as reckoning that all such
should be kept secret.
-- doctor patient confidentiality is important.
While I continue to keep this Oath unviolated, may it be granted to me
to enjoy life and the practice of the art, respected by all men, in all
times! But should I trespass and violate, may the reverse be my lot!
-- a good luck charm and a promise that the boogieman is gonna get me
if I don't abide.
-- end cite --
C'mon people. While it's charming and quaint that we still make
physicians recite this(1), it's gotta be for historical reasons only. No
one feeds their professor's kids any more, or teaches them for free.
Apollo doesn't smite folks the way he used to either.
But let's stipulate it holds... I missed the part (and I cited the whole
thing) where free care was promised. So your appeal to the H oath is
specious.
> Larry's view of the entire world as property - his property - sounds infinitely
> more red-neck Republican than Libertarian.
Bzzt. you haven't been paying attention. Overlooking the ad hominem
against republicans, who are a bunch of rednecks anyway, :-) they're
property confiscators, not defenders of property. Go read the GOP site
and try again. I must have missed the part where I claimed the entire
world as personally mine, though, and I'm fairly familiar with what I
write. Cite me please?
The entire world is property, just not mine. If it were all mine I would
not be suffering from such chronic red train window shortages... OK, OK,
it IS all mine. Everyone send me your Lego(tm) please.
> That is morally flawed. From the
> opinions he has stated above, and in other posts in this topic, if those in
> need of medical service cannot pay for their own healthcare,
or can't find a charity to cover them.
> then die and
> reduce the surplus population because there is no way he is going to let anyone
> take a red cent from him to allow them to live.
Take. But I may well freely give. Make your case for it and let's see.
Life is not free. People do not have a RIGHT to free goods. This is so
stunningly obvious to me that I come across as rather strident when
debating those who do not fathom this basic principle.
> Thank you Scrooge Pieniazek
Any time. Really, Ed, 3 ad hominems in one post, and mangled facts?
You're a better debater than that. Why don't you cancel your post and
try again, that was weak.
1 - In general, an inquiry into the licensing practices of the various
states as regarding professions/guilds that have state granted
monopolies is extremely fruitful if you're in search of trampled rights.
--
Larry Pieniazek larryp@novera.com http://my.voyager.net/lar
- - - Web Application Integration! http://www.novera.com
Fund Lugnet(tm): http://www.ebates.com/ use member lar, 1/2 $$ to
lugnet.
NOTE: I have left CTP, effective 18 June 99, and my CTP email
will not work after then. Please switch to my Novera ID.
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