Subject:
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Re: What happened?
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Fri, 16 Jul 1999 17:48:48 GMT
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Viewed:
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940 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John DiRienzo writes:
> That is not true. This country (and yours, too) has tons of businesses
> which require people who are capable. If the government stopped "making"
> opportunties business would take over that racket
Nice theory and something that got debated a lot over here the last
decade or so. The verdict seems to be that if the Government does nothing
then businesses often don't either, even when it looks like it should be
in their interests to do so. There've been things like - in South Wales
there are practically entire towns that depended on the coal industry.
Over the last 15 years the coal industry died because people started
finding other fuels. So you had towns with massive unemployment and
where most of the people were skilled in - well, coal mining.
Would you have preferred those entire communities get destroyed rather than
have the Government spend some money on getting new businesses to start up
in those towns?
> > But presumably the fact that you believe it's worth while to move means
> > you are getting a lot more money, even after tax - so what's the problem?
> > Besides wouldn't it be so much nicer if people didn't have to make those
> > sacrifices in the first place?
>
>
> Nice. I would love to get paid a lot of money without going to college
> and without leaving my family's area, but GET REAL.
Perhaps you should read what I actually wrote <grin> I never mentioned
teenagers leaving home to go to college. I'm talking about settled
people, people with families - who for some reason have been made redundant
or perhaps the company they worked for crashed etc.
> Right. People could choose to do nothing. I believe if people choose to
> do nothing, that they should be responsible for their own inaction, and if
> they can't pay their bills, tough. If they can't survive, tough. Why
> should I work and earn my living AND support others who choose not to? WHY?
> One good reason please, and I will shut up.
Your missing the point that often people do nothing, NOT because they
want to do nothing, but because they can't see anything that they can
do. In those cases giving them a bit of help can and does encourage or
enable them to do something and get better lives for themselves.
> It was a choice, work or lose something you don't fully own. As it
> should be. Do you think, since you wanted to be lazy (or didn't want to
> make sacrifices), that someone else should pay your bills? You could have
> chosen to live in a cheaper house, you know? You could sell your car, which
> you really don't need if you don't want to work.
Hey - you're reading stuff into my posting that I didn't write!
Firstly, I never said I had a car at the time.
On the main occasion I was thinking about, I didn't. (And even if you
do sell something, that's only a temporary solution anyway until the money
you got from selling it runs out). Secondly I did not want to be lazy.
I wanted to work. However, I was settled in my house, with a partner, when
the funding that was paying for my work as a researcher ran out due to
Government cuts - and a contract that I'd thought would be renewed didn't.
Because I lived in a poor-ish area there weren't any other jobs going
locally. It's only thanks to the fact that the UK Government does spend
a fair amount on regional aid that that sort of thing doesn't happen more
often. It's far better if you can get work without having to uproot
from the community you live in.
> I believe you that the situation in Europe might really suck as far as
> job openings go. Perhaps if the governments didn't stifle the businesses in
> those countries, the number of job openings would grow? I hear the
> Socialist Democratic Party is losing popularity in Sweden. Thats good.
Ha ha - sorry to disappoint you, but the job situation is a LOT better in
the UK now, under a Labour Government than it was at the time I was talking
about, when a Conservative Government was in power. And don't forget that,
though Sweden does have it's problems, the Social Democratic Party
there gave the country one of the highest standards of living in Europe
continuously for about 50 years. That's no mean achievement.
> Speaking for myself, I agree with all of those. I do feel a
> responsibility to respect, not hurt and be honest with other people. I also
> feel an emotional reward when I help others. I don't feel an emotional
> reward when I get robbed. Instead, I feel pain and anger. And Chris said,
> it is theft. I think of it as theft, too, because the government chooses to
> waste and spend money in a different way than I would if I were trying to
> help someone. By looking at the people who benefit from my tax money
> (either people who don't need help, or people who are unwilling to help
> themselves) I get pissed off in a heartbeat. Seeing those who work hard,
> and still receive no help makes me even angrier. If I had a choice it would
> be one thing, but since I don't, I feel robbed.
There's really two issues there. One is that I think we'd both agree that
any Government is going to make mistakes. Given how much money Governments
have to spend it would be pretty amazing if there weren't some things they
did that you didn't agree with. There's lots of areas where I think Governments
have mucked up, but that's fairly minor compared to the good that they are
able to do through spending money they've got through tax.
Secondly, get the impression what you're implying is that you regard all
the money your employer pays you as yours. Perhaps that's where we differ.
I recognise that I am only able to do the work I can because of all the
infrastructure of the society/country/community in which I live. I therefore
feel that some of what I've notionally been paid really belongs to the
Government/community anyway, so I don't have any problems about having
to give it up.
> Honestly, I think your government is screwed beyond repair, and so you
> just depend on the United States, for now. Don't know what you will do when
> we become undependable...
Uh? Whatever gives you the impression that the UK depends in any way
on the USA? Sorry, but that's not something you can argue about there
you are simply plain wrong on that.
The UK and the USA are allies, and their Governments cooperate a lot
on areas like defence. But there's no one-sided dependency there.
And as far as the UK Government is concerned, well Tony Blair's Labour
Government has been in power for two years and is incredibly popular.
All the economic signs coming out are that Britain is doing very well under
them. (Though I'm not trying to gloat - around the world there are
left wing Governments and right-wing Governments doing well, and other
Governments of both left and right doing badly.)
> nice site - I agree (I am allowed to say that in this group?) Lego aren't
> just kiddies toys!
Thanks - I'm glad we can agree on one thing :) I've actually just
today updated my Lego pages so there's a fair bit more stuff there now.
(Had the new files sitting on my computer the last week but hadn't got round
to uploading them). Sadly no piccies of models yet as I've had little time
to build anything the past few months, but I'm planning a large combined
monorail/normal train station soon.
Simon
http://www.SimonRobinson.com
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Message has 1 Reply:
 | | Re: What happened?
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| (...) Was this theory ever put to the test? Or was the verdict decided by a committee of experts? Over here, businesses finance employees' education frequently. Is it different in England? Those businesses must have a strange motive. Coal mining (...) (25 years ago, 16-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: What happened?
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| Simon Robinson wrote in message ... (...) Its probably a better career than most, and its probably worth the investment. (...) temporary (...) reason (...) background (...) only (...) needed (...) me. (...) That is not true. This country (and yours, (...) (25 years ago, 16-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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