Subject:
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Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Thu, 8 Jul 1999 19:39:20 GMT
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Reply-To:
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C576653@CCLABS.MISSOURI.EDUnospam
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Viewed:
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1227 times
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Hi all,
First, I would like to say a few words about the sterilization thread
and Thomas' claim that there was hostility here. I want to apologize.
When I first brought up sterilization it was somewhat (but not totally)
facetious. I included the caveat that it would be appropriate given our
(fascist) societal context. In the ideal world (mine is close to - but
more radical than - Larry's Libertopia) there wouldn't be any
sterilization because there would be no benefits of the type we are discussing.
Eugenics is a hot button for some people. I breed show cats, I have
bred show rats and specialty tropical fish. I like husbandry. I also
separate other animals from humans much more weakly than most of you
do...I consider cannibalism and eating meat essentially the same from a
moral perspective. I am really not as offended as the rest (it seems)
of you by the idea of controlled breeding. Additionally, I do not think
that people should normally be sterilized against their will.
I can only assume that Thomas Main was offended by the interaction
between Ed and I, and on reflection it seems that Ed is taking it more
personally than I am or intended. I have discussions like this in real
life and mostly people don't get angry; at worst they pity me for being broken.
Now, on with the circus...
Ed Jones wrote:
>
> > The 60s is the decade that invented the socially-acceptable slacker as
> > far as I can tell. I get so sick of you people ranting insanely about
> > how grand those times were.
>
> Why, because we had the nerve to see that things were wrong and fought to right
> them? Or because your generation has done absolutely nothing but reap the
> goods for nothing.
Which goods? Are you suggesting that I owe you (in the global sense)
something for making the world a better place? If I owe anything, it's
the attempt to continue the trend, which I do.
> > How exactly did you and yours fight for those things? Equal rights - I
> > hire people regardless of their sex and ethnicity.
>
> In the 60s you didn't have to hire anyone. You could freely descriminate
> against blacks, women, etc. etc. Things have progressed - slowly - but are
I frankly think that businesses should be aloud to discriminate.
_Maybe_ something needed to be done socially at the time, but if enough
people wanted it to, to make sweeping national changes take place, why
couldn't they do that with dollars instead of laws? I would rather that
small-minded racist business owners have the right to refuse service to
anyone for any reason on their own property. Property rights are important.
> far from complete. As an example - in Lexington, KY if you go into a "good"
> restraurant, expect to find white maitre'd, white waiter/waitress and black
> busboys.
Is that now or then, I'm not sure from your context? Is it because of
their skills, or because of racism?
> Vietnam - My dad was
> > drafted for the 'Nam he's still alive, but I figure I've done my share.
>
> How? Two of my brothers were in Nam. I protested against the war. What have
> you done?
I've learned from it. If I'm asked whether we should repeat it, I'll
say no. And I lived through it. I was born while my father was serving
his enlistment. Just claim that I didn't suffer (and was strengthened)
because of it.
> > Student rights - I'm too ignorant to come back with something
> > appropriately flippant...what's the deal with students?
>
> Why am I not surprised by your confession of ignorance. Major changes in
I'm always up for admitting when I don't know something. Your tone
suggests that you intend to demean my ignorance, but I'm sure that I
know things you don't and that's just the way it goes. I'm not
embarrassed by not knowing everything.
> Major changes in public schools
> - does segregation ring any bells or didn't they teach that in CA.
I left SoCal when I was nine. I am well and fully a midwesterner.
If you check the news records of the court ordered desegregation for St.
Louis, you will find a front page picture on the St. Louis Post Dispatch
of a little blonde boy named Christopher Weeks who was the first kid in
St. Louis County to volunteer for the tin mile bussing to a mostly black
St. Louis City school. Since that's me, I know that I begged my parents
to let me do that when I was between fourth and fifth grade. I guess
you could say that I am somewhat familiar with segregation and the fight
to end it.
> Oppression of
> > the poor - I guess that's where y'all decided it was OK to be ignorant
> > slackers and that the rest of us would foot the bill.
>
> Yes that was our full intent. So that today's spoiled brats could complain
> about their tax dollars going to the less fortunate.
What about yesterday's 'spoiled brats?' I don't have a monopoly on
thinking that government robbery is wrong. I pretty closely align
myself with the (general, not specific) politics of the founding fathers
of the US.
> The oppression was brought about by the lack of equal rights to employment,
> housing and education.
Mostly, discrimination doesn't make sense from an economic perspective.
The time was right for the US to change and you happened to be there. Congratulations.
> I know that my impoverished
> > family got help from church and neighbors during the OK dustbowl before
> > cashing in and moving to LA...I guess that concept wasn't invented
> > during the 60s.
>
> For middle class white people it was established. For blacks and other
They were white, but impoverished does not mean middle class. My
parents (or paternal grandparents) were the first people in my family
who could be called middle class. I come from dirt farmers and I tell
you that they got help without government efforts.
> Bummer we couldn't have gotten to your parents first.
Why is that? My parents didn't get any student loans. They couldn't
because there was too much competition during the baby boom and since
they were blue-collar kids they had to work instead of being in bad and
football and student government and so all scholarships and loans went
to kids who had done those other things instead.
> > > Senior citizens on Medicare - oh yeah, they're ripe for sterility.
> >
> > No, medicare is kind of a right that they've paid for all their lives.
> > It's not truly welfare. It needs to be shut off, gently, but shut off
> > with social security just the same.
>
> How so, I know many senior citizen women who never worked a day in their life.
> Why are they getting goods for nothing?
But contextually, they were supporters of a system that was paid into.
The family paid (those women had smaller grocery allowances, or
whatever) and because of their payments the family members are owed.
> Why is this free goods? They have paid for those goods with their tax dollars,
> have earned those goods and have a right to receive those goods.
Do I? If so, I want some free food too. I am looking at not choosing
the school for my child that I like the best because I can't afford it
($13K for kindergarten) but I might be able to if I didn't have to pay
for food. Or even if I just got all my taxes back as a school voucher.
> Again, to bad we couldn't have gotten to your parents in time.
But my parents wouldn't have taken aide with those conditions, and both
they and "the people" would be better off.
> > natural selection that is guided by societal mores. I'm not proposing
> > anything particularly revolutionary. And it's behavior that we impose
> > on lower animals without qualm...what's the difference?
>
> You must be one of the lower animals not to be able to see the difference.
Would you be willing to address this seriously? I know you and others
might find this rude, but each of my four cats is by far more valuable
to me that an unknown person. Given this, why should I think that
people occupy some special place in the scheme of things?
> :P
What does this emoticon mean?
--
Sincerely,
Christopher L. Weeks
central Missouri, USA
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