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(...) Unfortunately, many people are not in a position to pay the outrageous premiums insurance companies require. And even if people do want to pay, insurance companies get to pick and choose who they'll insure (often denying insurance to those who (...) (25 years ago, 28-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Gosh, I've found that insurance is quite affordable. What's the scoop? Oh, maybe it's because I've chosen an employer with a good package of bennies. (...) I thought government was here to perpetuate itself at the expense of the rest of us. (...) (25 years ago, 28-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Well, I am also fortunate in that regard because I work for the State of North Carolina. Now, I live in a small town in the Appalachian mountains of NC that just happens to have a university in it which isthe area's largest employer. However, (...) (25 years ago, 29-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Have you ever had the pleasure of enjoying government-run healthcare? I sure hope not. I have. My disability entitles me to care at VA facilities around the country and a few years ago, after my college fund ran out and Rachael and I were (...) (25 years ago, 29-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Mike Stanley wrote: <snip> (...) <snipped horror story about Mike's VA hospital experience) You certainly get my sympathy for your terrible experience in the VA hospital. I have heard similar stories about retirement homes and mental health (...) (25 years ago, 29-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Something is going to have to happen for health care. I'm not sure it isn't too long before we start having experiences like Mike's even with a health plan. It seems that health care is getting more and more inaccessible as there becomes more (...) (25 years ago, 29-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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The following responses are rather Libertarian macho flash because they were composed hurridly. That's OK, since the original poster was bemoaning no spirited debate. If the following statements don't provoke a great deal debate, I've misread the (...) (25 years ago, 29-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I don't remember seeing anything about "free". And the government *is* here to serve the people. What do you call road building/maintenance? A "right"? Everything the government does is funded by the Taxpayers, hence our obligation to pay (...) (25 years ago, 29-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) That's ridiculous. First, if I do stop using these government "services" (as if that were possible) would I then be free of a tax obligation? For the answer, ask home-owners who send their kids to private schools (like me) because public (...) (25 years ago, 29-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Is that fortune or decision? (...) There are more than 50,000 IT jobs open right now, people could get skills and then get jobs that do provide those bennies. If people in your area started doing that, then either the tourism industry would (...) (25 years ago, 29-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Around here, if you're willing to drive into the sticks less than an hour, I can still find doctors and dentists who accept chickens (or whatever) in payment from their customers who don't deal with much cash. There are lots of doctors who (...) (25 years ago, 29-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I was hoping not to engage Larry in this debate because I believe my viewpoints are valid even though I might not be able to defend them as aptly as Larry can defend his. I am not a good debater and Larry, as I think we all know, is a (...) (25 years ago, 29-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) But we specifically ARE talking about free goods. Try to keep up. The assertion being made is that people are *entitled* to a certain level of medical care whether or not they can afford it. Now, if they can't afford it, what else would that (...) (25 years ago, 29-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Please please please, don't anyone remove that key syllable, thank you. The new Victoria's Secret catalog just came, you'll have to excuse me while I go study it closely. (1) (...) I certainly understand the first quoted statement you make in (...) (25 years ago, 29-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) <snip> (...) <snip> (...) I stated this more or less to get your blood boiling. I believe people in need ought to be helped. I believe there are many people in need of health insurance in this country and that they ought to be helped by our (...) (25 years ago, 29-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Larry, I would like to understand the Libertarian principle better, but am finding it hard to understand from your responses in the various debates that have occured. What is the Libertarian view laws and law enforcement? We can all certainly agree (...) (25 years ago, 29-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) It worked. (...) Feel free to act on that belief. There are many worthy charities out there. You mentioned one of my favorites, Habitat for Humanity. We've been supporting them for an awfully long time. (...) That's where you go too far. (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Whoops... first time round was just mailed to Frank, meant to post this instead, so here it is. (...) Right. that's because I'm Libertarian Macho Flashing(tm). I do it all the time. I'm not this over the top out in public, trust me. For a somewhat (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I don't have time to get into this fully, but I agree more with Larry than Thomas, I'm afraid. What I do have time to do, though, is assert that "the government" most certainly does NOT spend the money it gets for the welfare of the people. (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Right. Bread and Circuses are not put on to benefit the participants, but rather to retain power. (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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"Christopher L. Weeks" wrote: <snip> (...) Yep, I was on that list. And, I once won a contest (I think it's the only contest I've ever won) in which I received an uncut sheet of the Chicago set for SC:TCG. I still have it. (...) -- Thomas Main (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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(...) I have a huge problem with this inane argument. Larry is avoiding the basic issue and circumventing it with property gibberish. It is simply this - all Doctors take a Hypocratic oath - that they will provide medical service irregardless of the (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Have you read Larry's response to my question about the ideals of Libertarianism? Your last comment is a gross mischaracterization of Larry's position. If you read one of his other responses, you will even see that he does in fact support (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Which basic issue is he circumventing? I thought the basic issue was determining who should pay for Random Joe's medical care. Larry thinks Random Joe should and Thomas thinks that Larry should. (...) Hippocrates developed the oath, but I (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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"Christopher L. Weeks" wrote: <snip> (...) OK, the first person who knows this song wins the debate: "...i've been called a communist because i'm left-handed/that's the hand to use.../well, nevermind." other lines (if you need a hint): "i've been (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I have a huge problem with the characterisation of my cogent and lucid statements (:-))as inane, or gibberish. Perhaps to someone who'd rather not honor property rights and doesn't understand why property rights matter, they're gibberish. But (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Man, Larry, I go away for a few days, and this explodes on my e-mail. :) Oh, and I agree with Larry 100%, even if I am a Republican (Some moral differences with the Libertarians, but nothing us "right-wingers" can't work out!). By the way, not all (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Admirable quality, I wish more humans felt this way. People *should* feel this way, as it is good for all. (...) Why? Because he feels the government should try to take care of the people it was created to protect and serve? I think you, (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) OK, you state "people do not have a RIGHT to free goods." I am simplying stating that some people, through no fault of their own, do not have the ability to pay for those goods but, in the name of humanity, should "have a RIGHT to free goods". (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I think that in a perfect liberatopia, all three of these people would have no problem getting the care they need, through charity. Person A may still be helped by some kind of unemployment coverage. Person B's family should also invest in a (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Your little moral problems are a sucker's trap, because you haven't stated enough assumptions and preconditions, so whatever I say will be twisted around. But hey, look up sucker in the dictionary... see that picture? that's me. (...) Why? No one (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) So you are saying that these people have the right to the care that they need. Isn't charity the giving of free goods? Are you saying that these people have a right to free goods? (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Oh, come on!! You CANNOT have a "perfect" society with more than a small number of people!! It is imposible! No matter what, there will be some that take advantage of it. Why do you think Communism failed? Any type of society that relies on (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) His savings are gone so soon? What did A do for 35 years? I have only been actively saving for a short while now and I could last a few months without my job, minimum. Inside of a year I'll be able to last a lot longer. Why would A have so (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) No, I think he's saying that, in a perfect libertopia, other people who help these people of their own free will. That does not imply that ABC have rights to those goods. (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Ignoring the minimum wage issue, who cares if the only jobs available are minimum wage? I've worked for varying amounts in my life. If you work for 35 years making $30k per year (sorry, that should probably be $40-50k/year if we're talking a (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) No. (...) Yes and no. (...) No. There is no right to charity. A charity may feel a moral obligation to help, but that moral obligation is something between them and their benefactors. A charity will set conditions under which it provides goods (...) (25 years ago, 30-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) OK, OK, I give in. I'll feel compassion for those people in the US that for reasons beyond their control can't afford to take care of themselves. All 2 of them. That was a flippant remark, but it makes a point. If you want my help, you have to (...) (25 years ago, 1-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) This point is valid. There is no perfect society and Libertarianism does not claim to be able to achieve one. It merely claims to be able to make things better. (...) Answer this question yourself, please. I know why it failed. I suspect you (...) (25 years ago, 1-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Larry Pieniazek wrote in message <37796883.7A114758@v...er.net>... (...) And of course I replied in kind... Here's my reply: (...) Thanks for the response. I suppose I am close to being a closet Libertarian. I think most of my discomfort has been (...) (25 years ago, 1-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) This smacks of this new age crap I hear about how morals are relative and everyone is entitled to their own morals, no matter how warped, and nobody else should condemn them. That's bullshit. Lemme give you an example of how you determine what (...) (25 years ago, 1-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) If he gets hit by a truck (this is what the original post was about), he'd be refused medical attention because he has no benefits and can't afford it on his own. Through no fault of his own, society and the government have just condemned him (...) (25 years ago, 1-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I think the problem here is that you are looking at the libertarian perspective piecemeal. As I understand it from what Larry has said is that since everything is connected, a truly (or at least much more than the one we have now) free market (...) (25 years ago, 1-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) It should also be said that charity doesn't automatically mean "free" goods. Habitat for Humanity is very definitely a charity, but they don't give away houses. They ask their benneficiaries to help build the house and in general to show (...) (25 years ago, 1-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Um....He does. By your own admission previously, you do allow him to extort money out of you for his pet projects. ('He' refers to Ed, the government, and communists in general.) (25 years ago, 1-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) He didn't say a right; he said they would _probably_ receive charity. (25 years ago, 1-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I hear ya brother Larry. (...) No. Never. But, they should have a RIGHT to earn goods. (...) Others have hashed this one out pretty well, but basically, f@*k him. 35 years is a long time to not sock something away for the future. One of my (...) (25 years ago, 1-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Lost a high-paying job and had to take a much lower paying job, yes. Shit happens. I made the best of the situation and moved on. Everyone else can too. (...) Saying "he lost his job and the only jobs available were minimum wage jobs so he (...) (25 years ago, 1-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Wow, Mike Stanley and I agree on something! That is amazing! (J/K Mike. You made some great points!) I happen to work two jobs to pay off my student loans. Scott Sanburn (...) (25 years ago, 1-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Well, we really have a quite a little mutual admiration society going here, don't we. All this macho, I've-got- 10-jobs back-slapping is touching, but let me offer a little unsolicited advice: Don't get sick, especially with a long-term, chronic (...) (25 years ago, 2-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Somebody just watched "The Trouble with Tribbles"! --Todd (25 years ago, 2-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Thanks for the advice...I'll try not to. (...) One of my roommates in college grew up in a Utah sheep-farming family. He tells a quaint little annecdote like yours. His grandfather got old (it happens to all of us) and stopped working on the (...) (25 years ago, 2-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Todd Lehman writes: [...] (...) OUCH! You are *too* much. John C (25 years ago, 2-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Christopher L. Weeks writes: [...] (...) Agreed. Unfortunately, with progressively debilitating diseases, the brain is often the first thing to go, and can be gone before you know what's happened or have a chance to do (...) (25 years ago, 2-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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I was catching up on this group when I read this post. This post by Lar is 100% right on. Why are there 46 more posts left in this thread for me to read??? I hope its a bunch of puns, as I can't see anything left to debate. I guess all hell has (...) (25 years ago, 2-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Thomas Main wrote in message <3779144D.DC72D75@ap...te.edu>... (...) Ah, just what the doctor ordered - good, teenage humor. When you can't argue, just hit 'em below the belt. Thomas, I don't know you very well, but I have now read a couple posts of (...) (25 years ago, 2-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Frank Filz wrote in message <377A8667.334E@minds...ng.com>... (...) need. (...) No, he did not say that. Its funny how people who like to take other people's property also like to take other people's words and misuse them. (...) Frank is catching on (...) (25 years ago, 2-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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John Cromer wrote in message ... (...) Thanks for pointing this out. You are right, our general voting public (clear-headed Americans) would rather vote for assholes that lie and say they will make things better than for people who could actually (...) (25 years ago, 2-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) his (...) I think that you're ignoring (as I understand it) a basic tenate of Libertarianism. Where does the fault lie? If this person has no savings, is it his own fault, or circumstances beyond his control? More to the immediate, who's fault (...) (25 years ago, 2-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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James Brown <galliard@shades-of-night.com> wrote: Not really responding to what James wrote, although I think it made sense. Just jumping in again. Brought up Larry's (and what I assume are the LP's) opinions on the government health care thing (...) (25 years ago, 2-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Mike Stanley wrote in message ... (...) I hate to bring up the old religion thing, but it is relevant. One of the greatest difficulties that the average westerner has in accepting the Libertarian idea that people are basically good, is that one of (...) (25 years ago, 3-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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John DiRienzo wrote in message ... (...) Are you commenting on my words or Ed's here? (...) My "yes and no" was that in one sense, charity is the giving of goods without expecting something in return (shorthand "free goods"), but it is also a "no" (...) (25 years ago, 3-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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John DiRienzo wrote: Although I think this is somewhat of a dead horse issue and I'm wayyyy to tired to be writing this...John addressed me personally, so I thought I should respond... (...) <snip> (...) Just trying to diffuse a tense situation with (...) (25 years ago, 3-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
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On Tue, 29 Jun 1999 14:18:59 GMT, Larry Pieniazek uttered the following profundities... (...) But your own Declaration of Independance states that everyone is entitled to life, liberty and the pursuit of hapiness. Health is necessary to life, yet (...) (25 years ago, 3-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
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On Tue, 29 Jun 1999 14:18:59 GMT, Larry Pieniazek uttered the following profundities... (...) I responded before seeing this bit! :o) Actually, in Europe(1) we do a rather crap job of provision of social care. Too many liberals and communists have (...) (25 years ago, 3-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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On Wed, 30 Jun 1999 00:44:51 GMT, Larry Pieniazek uttered the following profundities... (...) You would tax food? It is something essential to life itself. Though one could argue taxation on certain items of food (1), to tax *all* food items, IMO, (...) (25 years ago, 3-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I agree. I'd also point out that the person who was most adamant about thinking it is "human nature" to be selfish and not give, no matter how much you do or do not have taken from you by the government was the person who somewhat proudly (...) (25 years ago, 3-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) This is something I'm curious about. In these European countries that have this utopia of "free" healthcare I would assume it is paid for with taxes, right? I've also heard that in such places those who have the means most definitely do choose (...) (25 years ago, 3-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I haven't been convinced that more money will always create better education. Public education, like everything else run by the government, is almost by definition inefficient and wasteful. Still, as bad as it may be, I received my entire (...) (25 years ago, 3-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I disagree. We've seen various proposals here that say you wouldn't tax "unprepared" food but you would tax prepared food. So you wouldn't tax the mass-produced ham you buy in little packets, but if you decide you'd like fresher meat from the (...) (25 years ago, 3-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Mike Stanley wrote in message ... (...) Healthcare is definitely the toughest nut to crack here. The problem is that essentially for anyone in the world, there is a medical condition which would take more resources to treat than they themselves own (...) (25 years ago, 3-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) What part of "no exceptions" don't you understand? ALL or nothing. Water is something essential to life itself. So is gasoline if it's in the car that's rushing you to the hospital, or nails if they're in the 2by4 directly over your head (...) (25 years ago, 3-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I'm glad John's here but I do want to point out that I was perfectly fine with this particular one... I riffed on it quite happily. In general I tend to pounce on ad hominems but this wasn't one. (25 years ago, 3-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) The one that will get Bill Gates is the one we can't cure yet. Same as what got Princess Diana. We currently cannot save people that get crushed to 1/2 their volume and aren't extricated and gotten to the hospital that very instant. It did not (...) (25 years ago, 3-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I'm going to refer you to the federalist papers on this, and they're a hard slog, believe me, I'm re-reading them now, as I periodically do. Summarizing, though: I acknowledge that a quick read of the phrase "LL&PH" may leave one with the (...) (25 years ago, 3-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Let me forestall a pounce, this is a typo. The second "me" should say "my family after I am gone" (25 years ago, 3-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
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Larry Pieniazek wrote in message <377E75DD.377FC107@v...er.net>... (...) One thing that does worry me a bit is if our capability to identify genetic markers for those diseases which are genetic outstrips our ability to improve care for them knowing (...) (25 years ago, 4-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) In all fairness Communism is defendable from first principles yet is always said to be bad. I agree with the ideal of communism but not Marxism. In an ideal communism state there is no tax, no unemployment. I've missed out on most of this (...) (25 years ago, 4-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
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(...) In all fairness Communism is INdefensible from first principles, if you accept the rights based principle that people have the right to maximum freedom, or the utilitarian principle that we should strive for the system that produces the (...) (25 years ago, 4-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
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On Sat, 3 Jul 1999 08:50:13 GMT, Mike Stanley uttered the following profundities... (...) I wouldn't know the answers, either. And I agree, too many parents take too little interest in their children. However, where chronic underfunding exists in a (...) (25 years ago, 4-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
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On Sat, 3 Jul 1999 20:56:01 GMT, Larry Pieniazek uttered the following profundities... (...) I do not have these federalist papers to which you refer, so must trust your *interpretation* of them. Assuming a copy exists on the 'net, I shall read (...) (25 years ago, 4-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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On Sat, 3 Jul 1999 08:56:30 GMT, Mike Stanley uttered the following profundities... (...) Agreed, it must be all or nothing, but I will defend the no tax on any food position. (25 years ago, 4-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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On Sat, 3 Jul 1999 14:27:17 GMT, Larry Pieniazek uttered the following profundities... (...) Unless of course, you are one of the poor sods denied any health care, because even if they made it to the hospital, they might be deemed an unsuitable (...) (25 years ago, 4-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
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On Sat, 3 Jul 1999 08:42:49 GMT, Mike Stanley uttered the following profundities... (...) It certainly isn't a "utopia," at least in the UK. It is bureaucratic, mismanaged, and all health care is expensive, after all. New drugs cost a fortune, and (...) (25 years ago, 4-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
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On Sat, 3 Jul 1999 20:43:09 GMT, Larry Pieniazek uttered the following profundities... (...) It is an interesting measure of "humanity." How much do we make the sick, and their families, suffer, in order that we expend vast resources in order to (...) (25 years ago, 4-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Too much work. You go to www.excite.com Type federalist papers into the search box Go from there (I found them at the 3rd listing, skipping the first 2) Shakin near everything is on the web - you just have to want to find it. Remedying one's (...) (25 years ago, 5-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) It does. A quick search will turn it up online. I shan't provide the free good of doing your research for you in this case. I went out and bought a copy in the bookstore because I wanted to be able to read it on the plane. Note that the papers (...) (25 years ago, 5-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Really, Richard, are you trying to appear dense and quibblish on purpose? I'm convinced that the "final state" libertarian government can be funded without taxes. Taxes are only needed during the transition period. So I don't want any. But if (...) (25 years ago, 5-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Mind posting the ISBN (if you have it handy) or title of the edition you bought? I'd like to pick it up myself and the first 4 versions I've checked out on Amazon do not appear to have much in the form of commentary. (25 years ago, 5-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Food (store-bought) is less important than Internet access. :-) Heck, I can stick some seeds in the ground and grow my own food for free out in the garden if I want, but I sure can't stick a wire in the ground and grow Internet access for (...) (25 years ago, 5-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | federalist ISBN (was Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
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Commentary may have been too strong a word, it has an intro, some editing, and a cross referenced constitution I have the Rossiter edition ISBN 0-451-62451-2 (25 years ago, 5-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Thanks. That one's nice and cheap on Amazon. I think I'll swing by my used bookstore tomorrow and see if I can find a copy even cheaper, though. Hate to pay shipping on a 5 dollar book. Better than paying tax on it, though. ;) (25 years ago, 6-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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On Mon, 5 Jul 1999 00:20:22 GMT, Mike Stanley uttered the following profundities... (...) Indeed it is, but no harm in asking should someone just happen to have them! (...) Prefer metacrawler...., but when back online will go for yours. (25 years ago, 6-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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On Mon, 5 Jul 1999 15:06:30 GMT, Larry Pieniazek uttered the following profundities... (...) Requested on the off-chance someone had them? I do have a fair few documents from wiretap.spies or whatever it was called, I downloaded almost everything (...) (25 years ago, 6-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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On Mon, 5 Jul 1999 15:16:31 GMT, Larry Pieniazek uttered the following profundities... (...) You should know me well enough by now to know the answer to that one. Of course I am! :o) (...) I missed out somewhere the bit about no taxis. (...) Sales (...) (25 years ago, 6-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) You just wait for the comming era of nanotechnology. We'll see plated wires growing before I'm dead, or I'll be...uh...dead. (25 years ago, 6-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) A friend of mine became a VP at Chase Manhattan Bank/Chemical Bank with an AS degree. He built himself up by taking courses when needed, and just going out and showing that he was capable of doing the job. (25 years ago, 6-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I think that was me. (...) I'll be paying almost $2000 to move in August because I have lots and lots of large things. When I was 19 I moved away from my parents' house - 300 miles for about $20 in gas. Everything I owned fit in my car after (...) (25 years ago, 6-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) More money spent certain ways CAN help, but it won't be spent that way. (...) Right. Parents need to be educated too. Public school should include the whole family and if they refuse to participate, society ought to frown on it dramatically (...) (25 years ago, 6-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Careful what you agree to. They're a serious read. (...) No, only things that require resources to acquire. (...) And that's how it should be. (...) I'm with Larry, they should be done away with. My kid was inoculated on the dime of my (...) (25 years ago, 6-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I agree. I've actually thought a plan of universal reversible sterilization would do just fine, with some form of proof of worthiness to be un-sterilized. The worthiness part is the tricky part - I know I'm not qualified to make decisions like (...) (25 years ago, 7-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) For sake of clarity, I only think such a procedure should be employed for those who demonstrate the unwillingness to care for their young. People can disagree with me in any number of ways and still have the RIGHT to have kids as long as they (...) (25 years ago, 7-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I grew up during the 60s - remember the era that fought for equal rights, fought against the war in Vietnam, fought for student rights, fought against oppression of the poor by the rich, fought to get assistance to those who were in need. You (...) (25 years ago, 7-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: federalist ISBN (was Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
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On Tue, 6 Jul 1999 03:30:06 GMT, Mike Stanley uttered the following profundities... (...) I have downloaded that, the constitution, BoR, DoI, from Project Gutenburg. (25 years ago, 7-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) The 60s is the decade that invented the socially-acceptable slacker as far as I can tell. I get so sick of you people ranting insanely about how grand those times were. How exactly did you and yours fight for those things? Equal rights - I (...) (25 years ago, 7-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) So did I, although you have some seniority on me, the 70's were my decade of activism. (...) Good causes. I was prepared to resist Vietnam if it had dragged on much longer. What a useless little war. A waste of national treasure, and human (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) were (...) Why, because we had the nerve to see that things were wrong and fought to right them? Or because your generation has done absolutely nothing but reap the goods for nothing. (...) In the 60s you didn't have to hire anyone. You could (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Christopher L. Weeks wrote in message <3783B529.73A74C27@c...ri.edu>... (...) against (...) were (...) Groovy! <silly debate snipped> (...) Chris, I tend to agree with you more often than with Ed "Boxer" Jones, but if you would advocate the above, I (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) See my reply to Weeks. (...) were (...) Again read my reply to Weeks. (...) Construction workers are employed by construction companies. Those companies have winter layoffs. Those employees, having worked 6 months or more, are entitled to (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) You're stretching here, you know. This notion that you paid in advance for food stamps and therefore are entitled to get them kind of runs counter to the notion that the needy deserve help whether they paid for it or not. You can't have it (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Yeah, I could do that too, but lately, with wrist and elbow pains setting in, I've decided I should spend less time reading in front of the computer and more time reading in my recliner. I'll be happy when portable e-books become commonplace, (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Actually, you can, and it was the intent of the original program - to assist those with no income and to assist those who are underemployeed. (...) [snip] (...) Well, actually, he has to pay unemployment insurance (which is part of his taxes). (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Saw it. (...) Please explain why this is a good thing and not the inmates running the asylum. Please justify how burning down the administration building is a good way to send the message that the school is not delivering appropriate classes, (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | What is insurance? (was Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
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(...) No, you cannot have your cake and eat it too. That violates causality. No, you cannot make two opposing/conflicting arguments at the same time. That violates logic. That's what you're trying to do. So you cannot have it both ways. (...) (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) [snip] (...) As a former teacher, two of the biggest problems with today's schools are: 1. lack of funding - classrooms are overcrowded, teacher salaries over the last 30 years have actually decreased (differnce of 1960's salary times (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: What is insurance? (was Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
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(...) The politicians they own cast votes on their behalf all the time - much more often than on the behalf of the people who elect them. (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) But 3 lefts do;-) -John (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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"Christopher L. Weeks" wrote: <snipped a lot of incendiary rhetoric> I feel as though the climate in this newsgroup had grown very hostile. So much so, that I am going to unsubscribe from it because I choose not expose myself what I feel is (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) For the sake of clarity I agree with the sort of punitive sterilization you describe here, for those reasons. I just think people can prove in many ways that they most likely will BE unfit to care for their children. Like I said, I don't think (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) Oh, I don't know about lack of funding. The per pupil amount spent has gone up a lot even in constant dollars. NY is particularly pernicious, bumping up against 10K a (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: What is insurance? (was Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
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<378410DA.E6670E74@voyager.net> <slrn7o85bv.7bp.cjc@...S.UTK.EDU> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) An honest politician is one who stays bought. There are almost no honest politicians. (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) The man obviously has never been anywhere NEAR Boston. Sometimes it only takes 2, sometimes it takes 5, and sometimes you just can't get there from here. (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun, lugnet.loc.us.ma.bos)
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(...) That may be your reason or your idea of why people school tax levies down. I disagree. People vote down tax levies simply because they do no want to pay taxes. (...) Is it any easier to be involved in a private school for someone who works? (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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<3784A057.A9F1E5A7@voyager.net> <FEK0ss.3A1@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) Why, exactly? (...) Good question. And the answer is yes. Private schools, being market driven, have reason to (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) When corporations are no longer immortal people (under the law), I'll worry about 'corporation rights'. Steve (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Good idea. You might at least want to take a step outside, and check the name on the shingle. This ng is supposed to be for debate. It occasionally gets hot, but rarely hostile. Steve (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Well, I used to watch "Cheers". Does that count? Actually, my favorite show of all time is St. Elsewhere. Best show ever. Period. ER is merely a slick rip-off. *Any* good drama today owes its success to St. E, and possibly Hill Street Blues. (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun, lugnet.loc.us.ma.bos)
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(...) That's amazing. When I taught - there were parent/teacher conferences every month in the evening and twice a year on Saturdays. But weren't there also PTA meetings in the evening? Couldn't you have made your complaint known at those meetings? (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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<3784B28D.82177A5A@voyager.net> <FEK6nL.DDI@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) Bully for you. Some public schools are better, some are worse. Point is that parents have no recourse when (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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<3784B28D.82177A5A@voyager.net> <FEK6nL.DDI@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Missed these. (...) When I speak of the ability to discriminate, so am I. (...) I don't believe I said that. I said (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Or San Francisco. (...) Nash Bridges? Oh, wait. You said "good". :P -Tom McD. when replying, note that the Ghirardelli Chocolate Factory at Fisherman's Wharf now sells little foil-wrapped chocolate spamcakes. (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun, lugnet.loc.us.ma.bos)
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Now, I thought John Neal had come up with a good debate topic, but he moved the thread to the Boston group. Can I argue here? Is that legal? If so, I think Barney Miller was the Best Show ever. Period. ST. E and HSB took too much time (but they (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun, lugnet.loc.us.ma.bos)
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(...) Technically moreso here than in the Boston group. But I spose it could continue there if folks don't complain. (...) Ooo hadn't thought of that one. I really enjoyed that show. My two favs on that show were Steve Landesberg and Jack Soo. -Tom (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun, lugnet.loc.us.ma.bos)
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(...) broken. (...) Not at all, see my response to Larry on this - you claimed to lack an appropriate flippant response - so I provided it. But I must say, that the original suggestion of sterilization made my skin crawl. (...) But on to the serious (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
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Hi all, First, I would like to say a few words about the sterilization thread and Thomas' claim that there was hostility here. I want to apologize. When I first brought up sterilization it was somewhat (but not totally) facetious. I included the (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I got a big smile out of that. (...) It wasn't a joke, but it wasn't exactly serious either. (...) Right. I'm straight-up 100% agreed. But, that's not the world we live in. We live in a world where people think that robbing from the rich to (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I addressed this more fully in another note, but it was never my intent to come off as hostile. I'm Sorry that Thomas and others feel that way. How would you like me to tone my arguments, or are just some topics too much for some of you? (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) It sounds as if you're saying that the morally 'best' course of action would be to stand off and not take the unemployment. I disagree strongly. I think that if you disagree with the system in the way that you (and I) seem to, you owe it to (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
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<3784C71B.3C4F5D8@uswest.net> <FEK9oB.J3q@lugnet.com> <FEKDqD.3tE@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) I did enjoy BM, I also liked Barney (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) I agree that this is a problem, but your number 2 below really drives the nail through the board. (...) It's advancing. Here at the University of Missouri, there are (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Christopher L. Weeks wrote in message <3784F884.EBFE1372@c...ri.edu>... (...) why do (...) Chris, I know we are on the same side and all, but following your moral further, it is also right to break the laws, as you see fit, because it hurts the (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Statistical studies only support, and can never _prove_ a particular hypothesis. At least if you're rational and believe (generally) that the scientific method is valid. Ed can't possibly prove that, he can only support it with evidence. (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I don't see how my logic lead to this conclusion. But, I agree that breaking some laws is required to maintain moral purity. Since the US government uses my tax dollars to kill people with whom I have no beef, I do feel kind of sleazy allowing (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Reply-To: cjc@newsguy.com Message-Id: <slrn7oalrb.7jg.cjc@...S.UTK.EDU> X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.4.3 UNIX) (...) Or people have grown so fed-up with every new property tax increase being touted as "necessary to turn education around" and yet year (...) (25 years ago, 9-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Wow, that's really disgusting. I think maybe Denny's watched Roger and Me a few too many times. (25 years ago, 9-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I guess you mean a duplex. Sure, why not? Especially given the current state of the law that makes it so freakin difficult to get rid of losers once you find out they're scummy and you don't want them or their loud, dirty, possibly dangerous (...) (25 years ago, 9-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) The only openly hostile comments I've seen so far were directed at you by Ed, and it seems he's claiming those were examples of flippancy, not hostility. Some topics are hot, some people get hot while debating them. I'd like to think I haven't (...) (25 years ago, 9-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Mike Stanley wrote: Just teasing here, Mike, mind you, but... (...) the juxtaposition of these two parts of your post made me laugh a bit at the irony. But hey, I don't get out much. For the record I don't think crap is that bad a word any more. Too (...) (25 years ago, 9-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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<slrn7oanmg.7jg.cjc@...S.UTK.EDU> <37856F42.4B2DD2B7@voyager.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) Apparently so in North Carolina also, at least if children are around (the judge did say the part of (...) (25 years ago, 9-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Are you sure that wasn't a guy in Michigan? It made the national news. (25 years ago, 9-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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<3785FAB8.391B@mindspring.com> <3785FDDB.7779CCF2@voyager.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) Maybe I didn't pay attention to details, but I could have sworn it was North Carolina, will have to (...) (25 years ago, 9-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I bet that guy wishes he'd gotten his 15 seconds of fame a different way. (...) 90 days and a canoe, yes. Can't say about the "children vs. women" bit. (25 years ago, 9-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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On Thu, 8 Jul 1999 02:12:24 GMT, Mike Stanley uttered the following profundities... (...) Have a Gestetner photocopier hooked up to the network, so it will be pumped through there, to make an A5 sized booklet. (A5=210mm x 150mm) (25 years ago, 9-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Actually, it's an old law. And the guy didn't just utter the f-word a few times, he was all aggro-ed out, and shouting so people a fair distance away could hear him, and on and on. Personally, I don't care what language he was using. He (...) (25 years ago, 9-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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<3785FAB8.391B@mindspring.com> <378640fa.5882690@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) I mostly come to the same conclusion you do but for different reasons. While the owner has the right to (...) (25 years ago, 10-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Boston is one of the rarities in America, a non-rectangular designed city. Or rather, non-planned. Most inner cities here are the same - often the medieval moats are still running through them as well, so you can do nice liquid recreation. (...) (25 years ago, 12-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun, lugnet.loc.us.ma.bos)
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(...) And everybody can get a job anywhere they want. I see. (...) Lung cancer does not necessarily have anything to do with smoking. My grandfather died from it, and he never touched a cigarette in his life. However, his employer felt fit to (...) (25 years ago, 12-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Well, no. The finiteness of the situation says they can't. From what I've seen public universities are an abundant source of jobs with good benefits. And you seem not to need a clue to get a job there. (...) OK. There is no disease where I can (...) (25 years ago, 12-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Actually, we had the same reasons. You just described it much better. Steve (25 years ago, 12-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Larry Pieniazek <lar@voyager.net> wrote in message news:3784A319.4DF80A...ger.net... (...) ...and to make a left turn, you have to have an item run interference for you, whether it be pedestrian, ambulance, or homeless man pushing a shopping (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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Jeremy Dailey wrote in message ... (...) shopping (...) Or other car... Now Boston driving isn't THAT bad... I've never had an accident in Boston (near Boston, yea, a couple)... Another fun one people "discover". There are lots of lights where (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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(...) This reminded me of something my Driving Instructor told the class. He said if an accident is unavoidable, always steer for the softer target. My friend piped up, "So if we have a choice between a brick wall and a person, we should hit the (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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(...) One of my friends has been looking for any job anywhere doing virtually anything and yet still is unemployed - the European economy is very different to the booming US Economy - and we all know what happens after a boom. (25 years ago, 13-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) True. (...) And the fact that you don't have a gun in your house meant that every day when the troops came by to drag your grandfather off to work even though he didn't think it was safe, he went instead of resisting? (...) Larry "very tired (...) (25 years ago, 15-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Why is that, exactly? Compare and contrast the unemployment rate in Germany to that in Ireland. Factor of 4 difference. Why? What's different, exactly? Discuss. (...) I'll bite. What? Why? (25 years ago, 15-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Ah. And you can just get IT skills just like that I suppose. Funny - it took me so many years to slowly learn all the Windows programming knowledge I've got that gives me a good career. I didn't realise I was wasting my time and I could get (...) (25 years ago, 15-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Simon & All; Based on the conversations I have read regarding these issues (health care, right of, etc.), and Larry's views (Libertarian), I think a lot of you are missing Larry's point as well as my own. If you compare what the founding Fathers (...) (25 years ago, 15-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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<unsnipped because its a commendable effort> Scott Edward Sanburn wrote in message <378DE654.1582693A@a...ng.com>... (...) care, (...) Papers, (...) Yep. Its really out of hand. (...) this (...) scaled (...) Republicans (...) we (...) Similar, yep. (...) (25 years ago, 15-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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John, Thanks for the kind words, John. I usually don't get many in this forum! Oh, believe me, I am sick of some Republicans as well simply because of there non-difference to liberals and Democrats (Decept-o-crats around here) as well. With Social (...) (25 years ago, 15-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Scott Edward Sanburn wrote in message <378DF799.9B923A@aeieng.com>... (...) As a conservative, I never got many kind words in any forum! but I am young. (...) there (...) well. (...) incomprehensible (...) 25) (...) Right, since you aren't going to (...) (25 years ago, 15-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) That depends on what you mean by 'just like that.' I figure that someone with determination can go from being an average highschool graduate to an employable IT professional of some type in a couple years. (...) If you call programming windows (...) (25 years ago, 15-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I'm not speaking for Larry here, but some Libertarians agree that the government is big and needs to be scaled back, but don't believe that the original concept of our government is without flaw. I would be gladdened by what you suggest, but (...) (25 years ago, 15-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Chris, (...) I would disagree with your definition of democracy in terms of minorities being pushed around, but I think that everyone should be treated the same in terms of law, etc. I don't think anyone deserves special treatment for anything. OK, (...) (25 years ago, 15-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Republican == Democrat Don't ever forget that. "A difference which makes no difference is no difference." Steve (25 years ago, 15-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Amen. You don't have to guess to hard, I am different. Scott Sanburn (...) (25 years ago, 15-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Ha ha! Good point. Actually these days I write about it rather than program it, which is a lot more fun :) (...) true - I've got a lot more than that - but see my point below. (...) The point about it was I felt that the way you simply implied (...) (25 years ago, 15-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Scott- As a fellow Christian, I am curious as to which ideas of the LP you find unchristian. -John (...) (25 years ago, 16-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Hrmmm. "if the Government doesn't spend some money to make sure that people get the opportunity..." Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. Pursuit. Think about what that means. It doesn't mean that you receive a gift or some other (...) (25 years ago, 16-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I'll answer for him, leaving it open for him to answer for himself. The LP is religion neutral to the extent that it recognises that individual belief systems vary and should be respected. But it has some thoughts on behaviours that may be (...) (25 years ago, 16-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Umm... A slowly fading rumble? -- Terry K -- (25 years ago, 16-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Simon Robinson wrote in message ... (...) Its probably a better career than most, and its probably worth the investment. (...) temporary (...) reason (...) background (...) only (...) needed (...) me. (...) That is not true. This country (and yours, (...) (25 years ago, 16-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I don't doubt that. I'd say the same is true in the UK. What I disagree with is your implicit assumption that just because you managed to get qualified etc. and you saw a few other people doing it, that must mean EVERYONE can, even without (...) (25 years ago, 16-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Larry, Like I said, the fetal tissue research I did not like. I think that is a BIG one. You might be surprised, Larry, but here is my views on what you said: 1) According to the Bible, Homosexuality is a sin and is detestable to God. (I can verse (...) (25 years ago, 16-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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An unlimited democracy with no bounds as to what the majority can decide is indeed flawed. Further, it's unworkable beyond a certain size, and leads to factionalism. A constitutionally limited representative or republican democracy is much better. (...) (25 years ago, 16-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) In what way do you disagree with my take on democracy? It's the rule of the people - by vote - so as long as 51% of the people who vote think it's OK to kill me, then politically (if not morally) it is. Right? Wrong? Libertopia would be an (...) (25 years ago, 16-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) It's a simplified definition, I think you are talking about direct democracy, I was talking more of a constitutional democracy, where the people have certain rights (a.k.a. Bill of Rights) and protection from being murdered and so forth. A (...) (25 years ago, 16-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) It's unfortunate that the labels have become so skewed. I am a liberal because I believe in liberty. I am not a conservative because I think the present system needs to be changed. Yet if I claim to be liberal it means I support income (...) (25 years ago, 16-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Right, but maybe there are other fields than IT. I just picked that because lots of us are familiar with it. If you can speak clearly, you can work as a bellboy. You can wait tables. You can assemble widgets in a plant and make more than (...) (25 years ago, 16-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Nice theory and something that got debated a lot over here the last decade or so. The verdict seems to be that if the Government does nothing then businesses often don't either, even when it looks like it should be in their interests to do so. (...) (25 years ago, 16-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Was this theory ever put to the test? Or was the verdict decided by a committee of experts? Over here, businesses finance employees' education frequently. Is it different in England? Those businesses must have a strange motive. Coal mining (...) (25 years ago, 16-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) If a Democratic government decides (ie the will of the people, the *majority*) to sanction hetereo marriages and not homosexual ones, what's wrong with that? I think a case can be made that the traditional nuclear family is a good foundation (...) (25 years ago, 17-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Whew. Where to start? (...) It is legislating consensual behaviour. And that's wrong. No avoiding it. (...) True. So what? (...) First off, why does government have a monopoly on sanctioning marriages? Aren't they merely a contract between people? (...) (25 years ago, 17-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) The *government* decides which contracts it will recognize. It has nothing to do with how you want to behave in private. (...) What about Nudists who want to walk around naked in public? Or Copulatists (I made it up-- people who want to be (...) (25 years ago, 17-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) What gives the government the right to discriminate among contracts? It is then making a moral judgement that one sort of free will behaviour non rights damaging behaviour is better than another. Please address this fundamental point. (...) No (...) (25 years ago, 17-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Assuming we step into Libertopia, and you and Ed shack up, the government ought to treat you no differently than anyone else, right? He can inherit your property when you die, etc. What about corporations? Does ACME Insurance company have to (...) (25 years ago, 17-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Free to discriminate however they choose, for any reason or no reason at all. They're not the government. The government, having a de jure monopoly on the initiation of the use of force, is not free to discriminate in any way shape or form. (...) (25 years ago, 17-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) The gov is of the people, by the people and for the people. If that's what the people want, what's wrong with that? By judging their moral judgments, aren't *you* making a moral judgment? (...) Or, if you must walk around naked, don't do it (...) (25 years ago, 18-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I thought we was comparing the US Economy to that of Europe's. Ireland's economy is improving because of the peace agreement - money is flooding in because it won't get blown up by terrorist ground strikes. Germany however and to squeeze it's (...) (25 years ago, 18-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) We can resist without guns you know, have you heard of the marching season in Ireland - some go through opposition housing estates such as the Orange marches through Catholic estates. Sometimes there is massive resistance of the petrol bomb (...) (25 years ago, 18-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I'm not sure you can really compare the US economy to Europe's since Europe still doesn't really have a single economy - after all isn't that one of the problems the Euro is having? We've got some countries doing well and some countries not (...) (25 years ago, 19-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) OK - I'll bite on that one. I would agree that the traditional nuclear family as a good foundation on which to build a stable society. However, I can't see any reason why a family with - say - two gay men at its head shouldn't be equally good, (...) (25 years ago, 19-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) folly of allowing a (...) owner to open a (...) crime, etc.) (...) That one is possibly a bad example - since arguably if you open a brothel in a residential neighbourhood you are affecting the rights of the people who live around there - (...) (25 years ago, 19-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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<3790D4A4.AC909B52@voyager.net> <379164EC.11208B2B@uswest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John, you're being inconsistent. Let me summarize the points I'm making again rather than interspersing (...) (25 years ago, 19-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(I haven't responded to some points because this posting was getting ridiculously long :) ) (...) You're still putting the emphasis on 'choose' whereas I'm trying to point out that sometimes it's not a question of choice as unsufficient knowledge or (...) (25 years ago, 19-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Well that certainly explains why the US and Britain diverged so much after WW II, with the US stagnating and Britain going on to happy shiny people ville. Or why the PRC with so many many people and so much land is so much more advanced in its (...) (25 years ago, 19-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) You'll have to pardon my ignorance. I am really trying to understand what you are saying. (...) Ok, I buy that. Who, would you say, determines or is qualified to determine which is superior? (...) I am confused. Are we talking about moral (...) (25 years ago, 19-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) First, explain to me how 2 gay men "create" a family. Not possible. Unless, you say, if they adopt. In my perfect world, there would be no children for such "couples" to adopt, because orphaned children would be care for by immediate family (...) (25 years ago, 19-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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You were getting on about how great Europe is compared to the US. My point is that the US economy, having just went through a period of some deregulation, and a period in which a number of new industries sprang up faster than the government could (...) (25 years ago, 19-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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<3792817C.F236D232@voyager.net> <3792A1E5.40255C5D@uswest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) I am. You are. In fact I give criteria below. This turns on innate goodness vs. evil, but one germane (...) (25 years ago, 19-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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To all (Larry & Chris and others); Ugh. Let me see if I can clear up what appears to be people's confusion about me. (...) In today's terms, yes. I think the system needs to be changed, and I don't support income transfer. (...) I would say I am (...) (25 years ago, 19-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I think environmental protection and animal "rights" are harder than defense to privatize. In fact, I think defense is relatively easy. Probably easier than roads. (25 years ago, 19-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I'm totally lost. Could you clarify, Chris? (I should have gotten more sleep last night!) (...) Isn't a mob rule like 500 people outside a building, for example, demanding a hanging? (...) Most corporations and government agencies do illegal (...) (25 years ago, 19-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Like David Koresh? (...) I think that Mob Rule is where we are now...oh yeah, that is a representative democracy. (...) Fetal testing or murder? Both, I guess. (...) I do not support those things either. But here's how I view the words (...) (25 years ago, 19-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) You were assuring me that this wonderful democracy works to protect the lives of the citizens, I think. You said "I was talking more of a constitutional democracy, where the people have certain rights (a.k.a. Bill of Rights) and protection (...) (25 years ago, 19-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) OK. (...) The Republic of Ireland has always been poorer than Northern Ireland, one of the reasons people in NI want to stay part of the UK. Bombings appeared both sides of the border, just because none have occured in the last year doesn't (...) (25 years ago, 19-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I'd strongly dispute that. Business cycles have been happening for centuries, since long before Governments started interventionist economic policies. To a large extent those interventionist policies in many countries started in response to (...) (25 years ago, 20-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) you (...) hetereo (...) that's (...) I believe I asked you to justify what could be inferior about 2 gay men as the head of a family unit, not simply to restate the fact that you believed that :) (...) I can't see any difference - as long as (...) (25 years ago, 20-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I'd go along with that. I'm not too happy with the idea of positive discrimination. Occasionally it can bring about benefits if it's applied for a limited period of time - eg. in order to make sure that there are enough members of some group (...) (25 years ago, 20-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Ok, fine. I think a child deserves to have a mother and a father. Doesn't matter how much a man can care for a child, a woman does it differently, in a way a man can't. And vice versa. I guess I never analyzed the reason very closely, it just (...) (25 years ago, 20-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) So, something is better than nothing. Yes, but I'm having a tough time figuring a scenario where no hetereo couples would be available. (...) (25 years ago, 20-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) {:-0 Well excuuuse me;-) Didn't know if you were simply toting the party line, or if what you are debating was *yours* (...) If you are referring to zoning laws, then yes. Perhaps it is immoral and flawed, but the obvious benefit outweighs (...) (25 years ago, 20-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]
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(...) A joke from the comedy movie "Airplane!"(1). Something along the lines of "Surely, you must be joking!" "No, I'm not. And stop calling me Shirley!" Not exactly what is said, but that is the idea. -- Terry K -- 1. If you haven't seen it, it is (...) (25 years ago, 20-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]
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Scott: The fact that you and I have to explain what we mean by L and C merely proves the point (which we are in violent agreement on, by the way) that definitions have been skewed all out of recognizability. I have only inconsequentially minor (...) (25 years ago, 20-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]
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<37936594.15C0AA85@c...souri.edu> <379414EC.A40DFA0F@uswest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) Well, I know there are a bunch of kids being raised as wards of the state instead of with loving (...) (25 years ago, 20-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) matter (...) man (...) just (...) Hmmm - I have to admit to being impressed there. That's about the first time I can ever remember seeing someone write down a reason for gay couples not adopting which sounds vaguely plausible, thought out, and (...) (25 years ago, 20-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Terry Keller writes: Got you now. Yes I have seen Airplane twice and I recall the joke now. Quite a good film. Simon (URL) (...) (25 years ago, 20-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
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(...) There you go again, mixing theory with practice. In _theory_, someone/some committee _with all the information_ making decisions can do better (as measured by the utilitarian principle) than the free market. Much in the same way that in (...) (25 years ago, 22-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) No kidding? Man, you're weird. (...) And? Nothing wroing with ad hominem attacks, if you can support them properly with your arguments. If they can't, it's just more ammunition to use against them. Win/win situation, really.. Jasper (25 years ago, 22-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
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(...) That, I suppose, is the problem with the argument that those who deserve will get medical care through charity. You have too much faith in humanity. Jasper (25 years ago, 22-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) No. Nice try though. (...) So you're conceding the rights based argument, then? Good. (...) No. In THEORY it's impossible for any finite committee to outperform (that is, out allocate) the market, unless they have more information than the (...) (25 years ago, 22-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) No, you have too little. I give more by proportion because I think about what it means a bit more. Change society to encourage the behaviours you want and you won't be relying on those like me who have indomitable will and faith in goodness, (...) (25 years ago, 22-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I've been following this phenomenon for a while: (URL) interesting to note that this was noticed back in February, as well: (URL) suspect the newsserver isn't handling the references for extremely large threads properly. Cheers, - jsproat (25 years ago, 22-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)
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| | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]
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On Mon, 19 Jul 1999 01:38:04 GMT, Larry Pieniazek <lar@voyager.net> wrote in .debate: (...) B (...) This is an interesting References: manglement.. is it a Mozilla problem, or did Todd's newsserver screw up somewhere? Interesting it is mainly (...) (25 years ago, 22-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)
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(...) You know, every time I see this world I get bad associations. It reminds me of dystopia (regardless of my actual opinion of the described world). Jasper (25 years ago, 22-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]
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On Tue, 20 Jul 1999 23:14:52 GMT, "Simon Robinson" <simon@simonrobinson.com> wrote: <snip child deserves a mother and a father> (...) You've never heard _that_ old tired argument before? I've been beaten around the head with it so often it's getting (...) (25 years ago, 22-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]
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(...) So what do you want? Total anarchy? That's minorities pushing majorities around again. Being pushed around is a natural state of being for humankind. Maybe one day we'll grow out of it, but it'll be another few centuries at the _very_ least. (...) (25 years ago, 22-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) In one sense, yes. In another, hell no. Defense _cannot_ be privatised, _especially_ not in Liberdystopia. The then-privatised DoD would not only no longer be under direct government control, but it would have to compete with others. I for one (...) (25 years ago, 22-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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You prolly think that men and women are equal, too. (...) Where is it written that all gays are implicitly wonderful, loving parents? Talk about stereotypes. -John "extinguishing the flames of stupidity" Neal (...) (25 years ago, 24-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]
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Jasper Janssen wrote: <someone else said democracy is the majority pushing minorities around> (...) Oh, I get it. The choices according to you are: - the majority thumps the minority over the head with a stick - everyone with a stick tries to thump (...) (25 years ago, 24-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]
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Larry Pieniazek wrote: 1 - reminds me of an old joke. (...) I'll bite. -John (25 years ago, 25-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]
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(...) Q: "What's the difference between Communism and Fascism?" A: "Under Fascism, Man exploits Man. Under Communism, it's the other way round." (25 years ago, 25-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]
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(...) Microsoft called. They want to know where to submit their proposal for MS-DoD. Steve "I'd go Canada if Bill G. got control" Bliss (25 years ago, 25-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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On Mon, 19 Jul 1999 12:05:48 GMT, Larry Pieniazek <lar@voyager.net> wrote: You know, up til now, what you said made at least a modicum of sense. (...) Business cycles have _nothing_ to do with government interventions. There have been documented (...) (25 years ago, 26-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Have you ever heard of the concept "Jobs are not plentiful"? Apparently not. Life for a working-class man in the 60's and 70s, especially with a child going through university, is not a picnic, and quitting usually just Is Not An Option. (...) (25 years ago, 26-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
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(...) Says who? The mere fact that I choose to make a post focusing on one side of the argument does not mean I concede the other. Far from it. The trouble is, we both start from opposite views of what is a right and what is not, and therefore, (...) (25 years ago, 26-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
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(...) I take it you mean no taxes at all anymore, so your income would rise? More like profits would go up for business, IMHO, but that aside. (...) For one thing, abolishing all taxes and what gets paid by it wouldn't triple my income, it would (...) (25 years ago, 26-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]
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(...) And under Capitalism it's the first way round again. Jasper (25 years ago, 26-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]
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(...) Larry, As a father, how do you avoid the use of force? (pushing kids around) (25 years ago, 26-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]
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On Thu, 22 Jul 1999 22:51:36 GMT, Sproaticus <jsproat@io.com> wrote: References: <376D7261.634B7347@bigfoot.com> <3777AA6F.E773F137@voyager.net> <3777CD7E.FE00DE15@a...state.edu> <3777F1EB.550FEE59@c...souri.edu> <37782AF6.A05C00BC@a...state.edu> (...) (25 years ago, 26-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)
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| | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]
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(...) Where did I talk about anything but stereotypes? *muttermustreallybel...gegrumble* Jasper (25 years ago, 26-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]
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(...) So call me a pessimist. (...) Ad hominem? Sorry, but "Libertopia (might equal) dystopia (as easily as) utopia" is hardly an ad hominem. It is directed at the word, not the man. Anyway, that aside.. I haven't yet seen you, or any other (...) (25 years ago, 26-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]
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(...) It makes an actual NNTP connection (no voodoo) and doesn't limit the length of the References field via the HTML form or anything like that. (...) I didn't modify any of those parts of CNews. --Todd (25 years ago, 26-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)
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| | Re: What happened?
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(...) That's one of us, anyway. <zing> Just kidding. (...) Sorry, I forgot. There wasn't government back in 1503, and it didn't meddle in the economy either. How silly of me. (...) Trust me, government intervention wasn't done for god's sake, it was (...) (25 years ago, 26-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: What happened?
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(...) Why were these jobs hard to come by? Perhaps it had something to do with the government meddling in the economy trying to make jobs easy to come by... It's always easy to try to explain away courses of action after the fact by citing excuses. (...) (25 years ago, 26-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) So you are arguing that if you remove all Government intervention, then there won't be any business cycles? You are also apparently arguing that there has always been Government intervention? You appear to have argued yourself into a corner, (...) (25 years ago, 27-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: What happened?
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(...) No empirical evidence that's definitive, but theoretical proofs exist, (and not based on invisible heat sorting demons or market information communicators). Further, the less intervention there is, the longer the booms last and the less severe (...) (25 years ago, 27-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]
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(...) Apparently Lugnuts aren't easily duped into such thinly veiled trolls <except me> Me: FISHED IN, FISHED IN;-) -John (...) (25 years ago, 27-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Well if you believe you can point us to a theoretical proof I'd be interested to see it (seriously). I'd have to say however that I'd be extremely sceptical of any proofs, because. (1) The theory of the free market relies on a number of (...) (25 years ago, 27-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]
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(...) Hm. (...) Odd. Maybe it's just an interaction between CNews and Netscape, then - the servers at my ISP run Diablo on linux and <something> on Solaris, respectively. Jasper (25 years ago, 2-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)
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| | Hey Jasper, you there? ( Re: Government's role [Was: Re: What happened?]
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Is something up with dynip.com?? I am getting mail bounces from both my mail accounts trying to mail Jasper there. Jasper Janssen wrote: <usual babble> (25 years ago, 2-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek)
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