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Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas     (...) I agree, not all selfishness is bad, yet I believe it to be the root of most of what ails us. Any crime or perversion can be sifted down to an illicit focus on meeting a selfish desire. Again, our freedom only exists in our ability to respect (...) (24 years ago, 28-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —John Neal     (...) If I may interject, because you two have crystallized the crux of the matter here for me. In a perfect world, Libertopia is, IMO, the best form of government you could have. Problem is, you need to have the perfect world *first*. People need (...) (24 years ago, 28-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Dave Schuler       (...) This has been my contention for some time, and I'm gratified to hear it restated so eloquently. My problem has never been with the conclusions in Libertopia's arguments, but rather in the assumptions necessary for the system to work. In fact, (...) (24 years ago, 28-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                    Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas       (...) Both of you have made my point very clearly - namely this, you cannot fix a problem until you are able to both realize and accept it's root. We cannot address any of societies problems until we accept the fact that it is bent on selfishness - (...) (24 years ago, 28-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                    Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Dave Schuler       (...) Just for the record, I think it's worth noting that John and I arrived at our conclusions from widely divergent convictions; John's faith is apparently stronger than mine, but thoughtful rhetorical consideration, paired with a fair perception (...) (24 years ago, 28-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                    Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas       (...) Agreed, yet the outcome is the same. (...) Yet, as far as I understand it, the Ontological Argument is more about the nature of existence not whether the thing exists in the first place. As such, the existence of the thing is already a (...) (24 years ago, 28-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                    The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Larry Pieniazek       Plowed ground alert. Let's see if I can manage to just say ONE post on this and then let it go. or if anyone else can either... hahaha... (1) (...) Stipulating that there is a connection for the sake of argument (there isn't): Well, since no one (...) (24 years ago, 28-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                    Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Tom Stangl         (...) To be short, ditto. I find it ends a conversation (that I don't want to plow through YET AGAIN) quicker if I just say I am an atheist, rather than saying I am agnostic. I have had JWs come to my door, I tell them that while I have read The (...) (24 years ago, 28-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                        Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Jon Kozan         (...) Tom/Larry or whomever... (Too busy to read what's already been discussed... I just caught your post on the news main page... so I'm sure you'll let me know if I've missed something... :-) ) No offense intended, but my philosophy courses taught (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                        Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas           (...) Actually, I think it fits because, as in Larry's case, he doesn't WANT to know God as he perceives Him to be. The problem is his perception of what God is. And yet, in my opinion, the blame for so many who are utterly repulsed by the thought (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                        Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Christopher L. Weeks         (...) No offense back, but I believe that you were failed by your education. (...) The idea that one philosophy is more defensible than another does not negate those who adhere to the less defensible philosophy. (...) And a Christian says there is a (...) (24 years ago, 3-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                    Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas       (...) Many of us could also say: "Ugh, The LP debate again...bigger sigh! (...) My views are no less valid than yours, I do not seek to ridicule or stifle yours - or limit them to "ONE" reply. Unlike you, I have no ghosts. (...) Admittedly. Yet, the (...) (24 years ago, 28-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                    Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Larry Pieniazek         (...) Myself among them, believe me. (...) I blew it already.. OK, *TWO* replies, that's it. :-) Really! I'm sorry if you think I'm ridiculing you. I do find christianity a bit laughable, though. Along with animism, chiropractic, and socialism to (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                        Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas         (...) And yet it is kinda like sharpening swords and having at it, isn't it. Must be a guy thing. (...) And again, that's fine with me. I know what I believe, and more importantly, I know why. Believe me, I'm a huge skeptic, I question myself and (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                        Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bruce Schlickbernd           (...) Ummmmmmm, what are you defining as a "major event"? Greek major events excluded? Roman? Chinese? Indian? Japanese? Egyptian? Sumerian? Assyrian? Mayan? Viking? Scientific? That's not to say that many major events weren't linked in some (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                            Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas           (...) Again, that's why I said "nearly". I was referring mainly to such things as the World Wars, the Reformation, the Renaissance, the Dark Ages, Israel's significance to everything Middle Eastern (both because of location and direct involvement), (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                            Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —David Low             (...) Alternate history is an obviously speculative exercise, but I don't see what any of this (except the inquisition and crusades) has to do with Judaeo-Christianity per se. Given that we can't really separate religion from culture and history, (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas             (...) My original point was that "nearly" every "significant" event in history was in some way, big or small, effected or affected by Judaism or Christianity in response to LarryP statement that Christianity is "unsupportable" and that God is (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Selçuk Göre               (...) I think it is obvious that christianity (and of course any other religion like Islam and the others) are "supportable", and again all of them has great influences on the known history, but this does not mean they are "reasonable" or (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Larry Pieniazek             (...) Oh, lets see if we can find one or two that had global significance. Paper. No paper, no easy to carry bibles. Gunpowder. No gunpowder, no forcing the natives to read the bibles you made them trade their land away for. How'd I do? ++Lar (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas             (...) I was refering to more geopolitical events which had global impact on... well...the globe. I realize that they have made tremendous contributions - like substituting dog meat for pork and cat meat for chicken - just kidding, lighten up, I love (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                            Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bruce Schlickbernd           (...) Rarely, on the above list, which is why I dispute your claim. (...) Kind of a eurocentric viewpoint to claim nearly every major event. See below. (...) Defining Egypt as solely a place that the Jews passed through is belittling its (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                        Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Dave Schuler         (...) That's an interesting point, and quite similar to the "is libertarianism on the rise?" discussion. If someone adheres to good ideals which are in step with Christianity, but that person doesn't believe in God, are his ideals still good? I (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                        Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —David Eaton           (...) Well, depends on what Christian you ask, probably... some might say that because they weren't derived from God, they *couldn't* be absoloutely pure, and therefore are wrong. Another might argue that yes, the ideals are good, but because that (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                            Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bruce Schlickbernd           (...) I came up with a similiar kind of conclusion (well, question) when I was going to parochial school in second grade. Was it good because God says so, or is there something inherently good independent of God? (...) And this is the same question (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                        Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas         (...) Again, great points. Romans chapter 2 deals with this in depth, for anyone who cares to look it up. For the record, as to atrocities, it is my opinion that any action which is diametrically opposed to the stated principles of a system cannot (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                        Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Selçuk Göre         (...) For the record, the point was any religion can provide "high moral grounds" for the people or not. You said several times without religion, we could not have a social life, since there would be no ethics, since there wouldn't be a supreme (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                        Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas         (...) You're right, religion in a generic sense will not necessarily bring out the best in people. I agree that it quite often brings out the worst. I am a bigger critic than anyone on the problems in Christendom, I could go on for hours about the (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                        Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Dave Schuler         (...) You're completely correct, and it seems to me that such people often pick and choose which elements of The Bible the wish to practice, ignoring those passages they find inconvenient to their cause. (...) And that's the big problem--that the (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                        Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Selçuk Göre         (...) So, so.. But I'm not talking about invalidating any "belief", I'm just talking about invalidating a "belief system" as a "system to bring high moral grounds for society". If any system can open to be abused and can be used by a person/group (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                    Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Jon Kozan         (...) (Snip) (...) Minor philospohical point I had to add.... While everyone is entitled to their beliefs, don't even begin to think that that means all beliefs are equal. Sincerity in one's beliefs doesn't make them correct. I may believe that I (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                        Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas         (...) No, you're right. Ultimately there is only one truth, obviously. But, in a forum where such ideas are presented, predicated upon freedom of speech, I have the same right to present mine as anyone else does. I also restate the fact that (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                        Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Christopher L. Weeks         (...) This isn't really minor. It's kind of the crux of the past three thousand years of philosophy. (...) Woa! What does that mean? I'm not sure that such an assertion is obvious at all. Truths are multilayered, and most things are true/real in (...) (24 years ago, 3-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                    Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Dave Schuler       (...) The same logic would also apply, however, if I asserted that I have supreme power and choose absolutely not to act on it; does someone's inability to disprove my power make it so? The bottom line, for me, is that if logic could prove the (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                    Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Jon Kozan       (...) It's ok if you don't know of any. Consider this... The funny thing about Biblical Prophecies is that they tend to be centered around *major* events. As such, there haven't been any really *major* Biblical / Spiritual events in the past (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                    Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Dave Schuler       (...) Understood. However, surely you must realize that these two prophecies are sufficiently nebulous to curtail their predictive value? I'm not trying to sound petty, but to claim that Israel would return to its homeland at some time to be named (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                    Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Jon Kozan       (...) either. (...) Ha! It's very easy to look back on something and say that it was easy to predict. Hindsight is always 20-20 eh? You asked for 2 prophecies that the Bible has made and I've given you them... Ok, so you don't like them, that (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                    Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Dave Schuler       (...) Agreed--they're not made false by my dislike, but neither are they made true by your assertion of them. In order for any prophesy to be given any value, it must have some specificity, otherwise you can simply say "well, it didn't happen yet, (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                    Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Jon Kozan       (...) Both? (...) I can offer this (in response to your 'prediction' - er, prophecy, or whatever) Remember, please, my point about prophecies surrounding major Biblical events. The last event was the birth/life/death of Jesus. About that there were (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                    Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Dave Schuler         (...) As reported by the very document that predicted them. Further, while I recognize that you can drum up historical evidence to support these predictions, I could parry that by asking which revision of the Bible we're cconsidering to have (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                        Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Jon Kozan         (...) events. (...) And lots of other archeological and historical evidence. (...) You're avoiding the personal aspects here - and the 'versions' are all pretty much the same (contrary to your statement otherwise). I don't have time to go into how (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                        Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Dave Schuler         (...) Now, now. When I get home (or perhaps tomorrow, if I don't have time tonight) I'll post examples for you, and we'll see how identical they are. For that matter, what do you mean by "personal aspects" in this case? Is the Bible a different (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                        Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Larry Pieniazek           (...) Not that I know of. I do it all the time and I never forfeit, just ask me. If you really want to forfeit, you need to ask Rush Limbaugh what equivalence class Clinton is in. Although if Dubya wins, and in 2008 Hillary (divorced at this point) (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                        Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas           (...) If I may leap in at this point..... Just got in from work - I'm on the west coast right now so I'm a little behind you east and central time-zoners. I want to make a few points at this juncture with a disclaimer up front: I enjoyed reading (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                        Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Frank Filz         (...) One of the thoughts I often had is that Islam did a much better job of creating a religion than Christianity did. Some of the reasons: #1 - Their prophet wrote "The Book". #2 - Their prophet lived long enough after getting the ball rolling to (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                        Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Christopher L. Weeks         (...) Yeah? Well what about Catholics who worship the saints? Isn't that idolatry? Chris :-) (24 years ago, 3-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                        Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas         (...) Yes. As well as all the statues. Bill (24 years ago, 3-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                    Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Selçuk Göre       (...) Sorry to jump, but this just reminds me a former RP (a fundamentalist political party in Turkey) senator, who escaped to Germany after found guilty by the court, just announced a few days ago himself as "messiah". Since it is the second Turk (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bruce Schlickbernd       (...) I like Libertarianism...on paper. In reality, it seems to rely on "enlightened self-interest", which sounds fine again...on paper. The stand about "Yes, Libertarianism would allow racism (and then the rush to get the rest out) (...) (24 years ago, 28-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Charles Eric McCarthy     (...) I agree with you, it is very unfortunate. For example, people swearing at others just because of their political party affiliation: (URL) ... I have argued that man is not Good, that only God is Good. (...) Maybe you don't associate with (...) (24 years ago, 28-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —John Neal     (...) composed in the heat of the moment, and my frustration got the better of me. Of course, if I were truly uncivil, I would have actually *used* swear words and directed them *at* the people, rather than as some sort of lazy adjective. Actually, (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Dave Schuler     (...) Current evolutionary theory identifies benefits in altruism, both among members of the same species and even accross species lines. Such altruism isn't necessarily conscious or deliberate, but it's altruism all the same. The idea is that, (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                Do market based societies select for virtue? (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Larry Pieniazek       Scott's going to regret turning me on to Friedman! (...) Agreed. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I just can't buy this "people are basically bad, and societies that depend on honesty are doomed to fail" argument that comes from so many (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                    Re: Do market based societies select for virtue? (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Jon Kozan         (...) Ok, I admit I haven't read Friedman since grad school. But I remember thinking then that he ignores the vast motive to cheat the system. And the huge benefits to one who cheats well. (Hitler is a case in point) However, to say that there is an (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                        Re: Do market based societies select for virtue? (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Christopher L. Weeks         (...) Advantages like having to commit suicide alone in a cramped little concrete bunker surrounded by people who have been praying for you to die? When I state it like that, I'm not sure why more people don't want to cheat big. (...) If you meant (...) (24 years ago, 3-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                    Re: Do market based societies select for virtue? (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas         (...) While I do subscribe, theologically, to the idea of the "depravity of man" I must say that I also agree with Larry's assessment here that most people are basically decent, honest folk - especially since working thru the state of Nebraska and (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                        Re: Do market based societies select for virtue? (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Selçuk Göre         (...) I can't really figure out if there is any atheistic society. As I know of every society now has some sort of religion right now, as I guess but of course I'm not sure. I really appreciate if you give some living (or lived in some time) (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                        Re: Do market based societies select for virtue? (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas         (...) I was speaking mainly of communist/socialist governments that replace religion with the state. (...) I know what you mean, I spent 15 months in the Middle East and witnessed much of it first hand. (...) I like that you said, "if a person (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                        Re: Do market based societies select for virtue? (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Selçuk Göre         (...) I don't think they hit to ground because of the lack of religion, but because they tried to force an unrealistic utopia as an economic model. In fact they hit the ground economically, not socially (although I should admit that economic (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                    Re: Do market based societies select for virtue? (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Scott Arthur       (...) This is all very Hayek - he proposed that the systems of behaviour in humanity is evolving – and that they survive because they are useful, in that they help “society”. He believed that The market had survived the test of time this based on (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                    Re: Do market based societies select for virtue? (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Larry Pieniazek       (...) Including me, of course, as I've said all along. I'll argue for 100% (of whatever) but gladly accept 75% (instead of the 32% I have now)... Based on some of the other stuff you've posted lately I may have to become a small l libertarian (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                    Re: Do market based societies select for virtue? (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Scott Arthur       (...) So you're aiming for 75%. I'm sure I can haggle you down a little further... Scott A (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                    Re: Do market based societies select for virtue? (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Larry Pieniazek       (...) We're not haggling yet, and if we were, I'd still be aiming for 100%. :-) ++Lar (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —John Neal     (...) I don't understand how "altruism in animals" is different than an instinct of cooperation, compromise, etc. I guess I'm saying that I think only sentient beings who have free will (or the illusion of it-- different debate, but I digress) are (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Larry Pieniazek       In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal pollutes the libertarian debate part of our regularly scheduled ranting with god debate stuff: (grin) (...) Reductio ad absurdium: Lehman acts in the world through his people. If I as a LUGNet user give to a (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                    Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Jon Kozan         (...) I believe you missed John's point. (Perhaps he didn't state it)... He acts in the world not the because of the group he subscribes to, or affiliates with. John believes that he is not merely acting in accordance with his belief system's (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                        Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Larry Pieniazek         (...) LUGNetters, but I digress. The Lehman DOES indwell LUGNetters and I've just proven it to you. Do you doubt my word? Witness the miracles the Lehman has worked. All those things I mentioned happened to me, personally, and I have had my Road to (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                        Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Jon Kozan           (...) actually (...) a (...) Somehow I knew that you'd be looking for a way to get my ladders. That aside, you haven't proven anything to me. You've only made assertions which you can't prove. You have no context for proving anything related to your (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.fun)                            Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Larry Pieniazek             I've set the FUT back where it belongs, this is a serious debate although couched in humor. (...) The offer is open to any who seek enlightenment, not just you. My previous religion scam, er incorrectly revealed revelation which the world was not (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.fun)                                Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas               (...) Oh, don't flatter yourself....like it wasn't obvious! While I found your tale extremely humorous - (which is bad because I just got out of the ICU due to amonia (pneumonia), my ribs are killing me!! I laughed my @$$ off - that's right, I now (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                    Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —John Neal                 (...) Thank you, Hannibal. (...) You raise good points, Bill, but don't fall into the trap of trying to prove anything about Christ or God, at least to seasoned debaters such as Lar et al. They will eat you for lunch. But that's okay, because we (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                        Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —David Eaton                   (...) Highlight above, "unknown". (...) I would argue that neither you nor Lar can prove something to the other. Neither of your arguments shall have bearing on the other. Lar won't accept your evidence, and you won't accept his argument that he (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                        Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Dave Schuler                   (...) Given your assumption, I would certainly agree that the infinite is incomprehensible by the finite. (...) Don't put yourselves (as Christians) down; intellectuals and scientists, I imagine, would believe through Faith just like any other (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                            Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Larry Pieniazek                     (...) I wouldn't, at least not completely. Finite systems can model infinity, categorise it, draw meaningful conclusions about it, etc. They can even simulate things related to some parts of it. I "comprehend" infinity. But most of these infinities (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                            Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Tim Courtney                     (...) I agree there. The struggle, if you will, between Science and Christianity is that very drive for emperical evidence to back something up (continuing to play the assumption made by John, even though I believe that God does exist and he is the (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                                Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Larry Pieniazek                     (...) Er, I think you mean "cannot be EXPLAINED naturally". Proven naturally has no meaning. And I'd add "and there is no hope of ever doing so" here, else you're toast. (...) Add "verifiable" here, twice, else you're toast. (...) Because without (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                                Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Frank Filz                       (...) Well, it is still possible for a god to have had a tangible effect, in that it is possible that our universe is just an incredibly good simulation running in another universe. Then "god" would be the programmer who wrote the simulation... Of (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                                Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Tim Courtney                     "Larry Pieniazek" <lpieniazek@mercator.com> wrote in message news:G4unI7.76u@lugnet.com... (...) My misteak (is that how you spell it? ;o) ), you're right. (...) pick (...) conservation (...) Agreed. (...) me) (...) ...where I say a potential (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                                Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Dave Schuler                     (...) There's a difference, though, between understanding something and proving it exists. Even if a thing is infinite, if it has any perceptible interaction in the universe it can (in theory, at least) be proven to exist, even if we have no hope of (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                                Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Tim Courtney                     "Dave Schuler" <orrex@excite.com> wrote in message news:G4uqp9.HKB@lugnet.com... (...) proving (...) exist, (...) And I believe that God can, in the form of his interaction here on earth being attributed to him properly. I just haven't studied the (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                                Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Dave Schuler                     (...) That's fine on a personal level, but you have to recognize that faith, evidence(1), and personal experience will never prove His existence to anoter person, as long as that person is objective and subjects your assertions to critical analysis. (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                                Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Tim Courtney                     "Dave Schuler" <orrex@excite.com> wrote in message news:G4urs9.L3A@lugnet.com... (...) Yep, I agree. Each individual has to come to this realization for himself or herself. Until its personal, no amount of convincing really helps. It may prompt them (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                                Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Larry Pieniazek                       (...) ?? In the way the LUGNet trademark device has beauty? That is, it's logically inconsistent, but pretty, in a decorative way? This and something David Low said got me thinking. Is it possible that all or part of the intellectual attractiveness (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                                Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Jon Kozan                     (...) Sorry guys - saying that belief in God requires a leap of faith - what you're saying in essence - is exactly what Kant said. God is, however, not removed from reality. Belief in God can indeed be arrived at through rational considerations - (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                                Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Tim Courtney                     Jon, Good points :-) I just haven't arrived at a rational explanation yet, besides reading some philosophers for class - and those easily get debunked if you think hard enough. Though I like C.S. Lewis, he doesn't seem that debunkable, but I haven't (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                                Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Jon Kozan                     (...) Tim - What do you believe? Whether or not you have a 'rational' explaination... -Jon (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                                Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Selçuk Göre                     (...) What are you trying to do? Are you the gate keeper of heaven (or hell)? Selçuk (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                                Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Jon Kozan                       (...) Hardly. In the few minutes I have each day to jump into the fray, I've noticed a distinct tendency of many to jab at Christianity, without ever stating their own positions. This morning (my local time), I've merely asked a few of the posters (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                                Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Tim Courtney                     "Selçuk Göre" <ssgore@superonline.com> wrote in message news:3A27D64E.2969F5...ine.com... (...) He's just curious, really. I'm a Christian, by believing in the teachings of Christ in the Bible. I share the same sentiments on how flawed (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                                Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Jon Kozan                     (...) Oh, Ok. I must have missed Bill's "flaws". Can you point the way for me? (what posting?) Or perhaps state your sentiments? -Jon (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                                Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Dave Schuler                       (...) I have the sense that Bill's view of "flawed 'Christianity'" does not mean that Christianity itself is flawed, but rather that people who alleged to follow Christianity (conquistodores et al) were flawed. Is that what you were getting at, Tim? (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                                    Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Tim Courtney                       (...) Yep! Wow, Dave! you're right there when I need ya. I just got posting not two seconds ago referring to you. ...and now I'm off, got stuff to do. This looks pretty interesting though :) -Tim (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                                Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Tim Courtney                     "Jon Kozan" <jauction@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:G4wFFH.25F@lugnet.com... (...) and (...) Maybe Bill didn't outline them all here, but I'm still searching, here's the little bit I found: (URL) last sentence of Bill's first paragraph) Maybe (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                                Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Dave Schuler                       (...) That's it exactly, and it applies pretty much to any belief system. That is, the system's truth or falsehood isn't determined by the zaniness or non-zaniness of its supporters. Dave! (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                                    Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Lindsay Frederick Braun                       (...) That's why there are still Marxists and Communists in the world! (And, some would argue, Greens and Libertarians.) best LFB (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                                    Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Larry Pieniazek                       <snipped even more capriciously than usual!> (...) I agree. Those Marx brothers were pretty zany all right. Yet their belief system (the right to wear silly hats, have dark eyebrows, wave cigars leeringly at matronly women, and honk a large bicycle (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                                    Re: Enduring Marxism —Dave Schuler                       (...) It's amazing to think that some of their film work is almost 70 years old! Duck Soup, in its day, was deemed so volatile that Il Duce banned its screening in Italy for several years, and its madcap anti-war sentiment was echoed fully 40 years (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                                Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Jon Kozan                     (...) "It must be a guy thing"??? I'm thinking that you're actually more comfortable with the response Dave! provided...?? -Jon (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                                Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Tim Courtney                     "Jon Kozan" <jauction@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:G4wt23.J1K@lugnet.com... (...) DOH! The third paragraph is what I think I meant to say. "I am more offended than you by what I see in Christendom." :o) -- Tim Courtney - tim@zacktron.com (URL) (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                                Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Jon Kozan                     (...) Ah. I suppose that's the beauty of God - that He entrusts His perfect plan into the hands of imperfect people - yet it will not fail. :-) -Jon (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                            Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —David Low                   (...) This is what perplexes me about fundamentalist religion. Given that God is infinite and transcendent, how can any human claim to have perfect or privileged knowledge of God? How can anyone of faith actually be sure that he or she has found the (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                        Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bruce Schlickbernd                   (...) Idunno, my mother was a Darwinfish-carrying physical anthropologist who believed in God. Bruce (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                        Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas                 (...) No trap, I was laying one, and it worked. I'm a big eater, he couldn't handle my lunch. Besides, I was using a martial arts/fencing/military tactic of realizing a perceived weakness, telegraphing it to lure the opponent and then using it to my (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                    Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Larry Pieniazek                 (...) It was whipped up on the spur of the moment. I'm glad it amused, and not too worried if it wasn't perfect. Nobody is perfect, you know, but some of us take comfort in being Forgiven, and some of us take comfort in improving ourselves. I know (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                        Re: Big Lar caught in his own trap (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas                 (...) I presume, confidently, that you refer to those who improve ourselves. Thanx, I'm glad you prefer my sort. :) One doesn't preclude the other. I believe I have been forgiven of quite a lot, but I also strive to continuously improve myself. This (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                    Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Dave Schuler                 (...) I don't have any reason to doubt that Jesus the man existed, and I don't think that's what Larry's suggesting, either. And I've heard the witness-evidence-tha...p-in-court argument before. Similarly, I've heard it asked why we (skeptics and/or (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                    Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Christopher L. Weeks               (...) I'm not Larry, but I have disdain for self-delusion in general. Don't you? Obviously we disagree about whether Christianity is delusion, but I'm not getting why you would possibly assert that someone's disdain for a particular bit of (...) (24 years ago, 3-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Jon Kozan               (There's a lot here and it would make sense to split up further replies into separate threads depending on the topics below - just a thought) (...) How do you define "saved"? Don't abuse religious language without providing a context for your (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                    Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Selçuk Göre                 Sorry Jon, but I think you should be feeling "trapped"..:-) (...) Hey I'm good and righteous, too. Selçuk (24 years ago, 4-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                    Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Larry Pieniazek               For closure, in order to make the historical record complete. In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Jon Kozan writes: <snip> a very long and point by point "refutation" Jon, you missed the point. The real question here, which you didn't address, is "is this (...) (24 years ago, 5-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                    Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Jon Kozan               (...) I doubt that the discussion will ever truly end, although the thread certainly will.... Thank-you for the perspective that you provided, as I suspect that although you only present it in illustrative form, that it actually provides a framework (...) (24 years ago, 5-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                    Veracity, the historical record, and supernatural events —Larry Pieniazek                 OK, I want to clarify a bit more here in hopes that this will be the end. (...) n.b. I'm no historian, and I'd love to have LFB chime in here, this is his area of specialty. Nothing that you did not personally witness can be "proven" to have (...) (24 years ago, 5-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                        Re: Veracity, the historical record, and supernatural events —Jon Kozan                   In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes: An impressive chapter in the perspective of LAR. Certainly filled with valid and compelling points for all to consider. I had to think hard before replying in fact. Again, well written and indeed (...) (24 years ago, 5-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                            Re: Veracity, the historical record, and supernatural events —Lindsay Frederick Braun                   (...) Ack, my ears are burning! (Or are those my cloven hooves?) :) Guilty as charged, at least as far as history generis. (...) It's not so much that things can't be proven to occur as that human language is made up of signifiers--and like the old (...) (24 years ago, 6-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                            Re: Veracity, the historical record, and supernatural events —Larry Pieniazek                   (...) I've been out with you and seen you ogling the girls wearing Devil Horns. I've also never seen you with your shoes off. So... no comment. (...) not sure if your beef is with me or not. But suffice it to say I don't disagree with what you said (...) (24 years ago, 6-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                        Re: Veracity, the historical record, and supernatural events —Selçuk Göre                   (...) Actually, the first claim is not even a miracle at all, I mean "born of a virgin". AFAIK, it is a rare but normal thing. I don't know how rare or frequent it is, but it can be faced from time to time, as a doctor said to me. Sometimes, the (...) (24 years ago, 6-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                            Re: Veracity, the historical record, and supernatural events —Tom Stangl                   Actually, it is quite easy to get pregnant without losing the hymen - it DOES pass fluids. Complicating the matter is the fact that some women have been known to have hymens that heal at least once. (...) -- | Tom Stangl, Technical Support Netscape (...) (24 years ago, 13-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                        Sluggites unite with Larritarians? (was: Re: Veracity, the historical record, and supernatural events) —Steve Bliss                 (...) This is my ++Lar. Is he not nifty? Worship the ++Lar. Steve (24 years ago, 6-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                        Re: Sluggites unite with Larritarians? (was: Re: Veracity, the historical record, and supernatural events) —Lindsay Frederick Braun                 (...) "Do not taunt Happy Fun ++Lar." ;) At the risk of making this less .debate and more .fun, has anyone ever seen an old magazine called "X" (which became, I believe, the strangely-monikered "Dryer Systems Magazine"), which was a counterculture (...) (24 years ago, 6-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                        Re: Sluggites unite with Larritarians? (was: Re: Veracity, the historical record, and supernatural events) —Steve Bliss                 (...) At this point, my cow-orkers all think I'm nuts. LOL, indeed. Wasn't there a line about "Light fuse on ++Lar, set on ground, and walk away quickly"? (...) Never heard of it. Found some links to it, but they were all dead. Seems that Dryer has (...) (24 years ago, 7-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                        Re: Sluggites unite with Larritarians? (was: Re: Veracity, the historical record, and supernatural events) —John Neal                 (...) Save for the occasional Michigoose... obLarritarians... Steve, I am surprised you haven't become officially indoctrinated and sanctified... -John (Larritarian in good standing) (...) (24 years ago, 7-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                        Re: Sluggites unite with Larritarians? (was: Re: Veracity, the historical record, and supernatural events) —Steve Bliss                 (...) I never completed the initiation rite (ie, the free love offering of bricks). Heck, I can't connect with ++Lar to deliver the stuff he's buying from me. Steve (24 years ago, 8-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                        Re: Sluggites unite with Larritarians? (was: Re: Veracity, the historical record, and supernatural events) —John Neal                 (...) Correction-- *a* brick. Being a Larritarian isn't hard, and it has it's rewards......[1] (...) [1] These rewards are very *tangible* I assure you all! -John (24 years ago, 8-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                    Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —John Neal               (...) Touché. -John (...) (24 years ago, 5-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                    mirror mirror on the wall, who's the stubbornest of them all? —Larry Pieniazek               (...) Touché indeed. But before you celebrate too much, I submit Jon was talking about himself when he made the statement... :-) ++Lar (24 years ago, 5-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                    Re: mirror mirror on the wall, who's the stubbornest of them all? —Jon Kozan               (...) Not really. And not you particularly either, although perhaps others know better than I... :-) It was meant as a reminder to us all that we should examine our positions and conclusions carefully. Name-slogging probably doesn't help. But it (...) (24 years ago, 5-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Kyle McDonald               (...) AMEN! ;^) (24 years ago, 3-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Markus Wolf             (...) I know I'm way late, but I was wandering through when I came across this little statement. The thought occurred to me that the cruelest thing that Jesus could do for you ++Lar is to bring you into heaven. I mean, if you've spent a major (...) (24 years ago, 9-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                            Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Christopher L. Weeks           (...) Hmmmm. (...) But he does! I have witnessed all that Lar has experienced! Witness of Lar's holy experiences as well as inspiration for LEGO constructions are provided to me vicariously in my sleep. (...) Now he does. (...) He hasn't suggested (...) (24 years ago, 3-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)                            Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Scott Edward Sanburn           Not to chime in too much this this discussion sounds more like a debate than off.topic.fun. Scott S. -- Want LEGO Elements at Great Prices? Visit The Sanburn Systems Company www.sanburnsystems.com Scott E. Sanburn, Owner (24 years ago, 3-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)                            Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Larry Pieniazek           (...) It leaked over here when a .debate novice set FUT incorrectly to point here just because something funny was said. I set the FUT back in my reply, but of course, once ONE post appears in a group, you always run the risk of latecomers missing (...) (24 years ago, 3-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.fun, lugnet.admin.general)                        Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Dave Schuler         (...) Speaking as one of the dark acolytes of Ritvik, we always have room for those who stray from the Pure ABS Faith. (...) Sycophant!! Dave! (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)                    Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Selçuk Göre       (...) Todd bless you, brother..:-) We all believe in Todd, don't we?.. Selçuk (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Dave Schuler       (...) I likewise don't understand how "altruism" in sentient beings is different from an instinct of cooperation, compromise, etc., nor why in sentient beings we must ascribe such altruism to a higher power. (...) If you as a Christian, in a fit of (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                    Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Larry Pieniazek         (...) Dave! Dave!! Dave!!! You were doing so well, too. Now we're going to have to have this whole debate over again, because you just lost. :-) :-) ++Lar (like we aren't going to have it over again next month anyway?) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                        Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Dave Schuler         (...) D'oh! I was afraid that might happen! I thought I could get through on a technicality, since I wasn't actually likening my opponent to Hitler, but was simply making a point (and I was quoting someone else!) Clemency! Dave! (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                        Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Larry Pieniazek         (...) Send a love offering. Select a tract on either Larritarianism OR Lehmanism, your choice, and absolution is yours. ++Lar (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                    Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —John Neal       (...) Well, wouldn't instincts of altruism *always* be obeyed? Certainly altruism in sentient beings is random at best. (...) lol This reminds me of a story a friend told me. His dad was driving and came up to a stop light behind a car that had a (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                    Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Selçuk Göre         (...) Those Germans were Christians, right? And most of the US people (at least the first settlers who "cleaned the indians") are also Christians, right? The southern states of US, who known to be more religious and conservative than the northern (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                        Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —John Neal         (...) "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                        Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Selçuk Göre         (...) So what? Is this well written part of the bible (or any other similar sentences from any other holy books) could avoid the above things and many others from being happened? As I know of, it just provide necessary tools to get support from (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                    Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Charles Eric McCarthy         (...) An atheist believes there is no God. An atheist may have other beliefs, such as "people are intrinsically good" or "I am intrinsically good." Also, doing good as an atheist could be more self-rewarding than doing good as a Christian. An (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                        Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Jon Kozan           (...) Which leads me to ask if you are an atheist? If you are I'd ask you to consider the tenuousness of your position. (see my thoughts on that in another thread of this...) -Jon (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                            Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Charles Eric McCarthy             (...) Saw it. Nope, I'm agnostic. Not as rewarding as being an atheist, because maybe I'm being good just to hedge my bets. :-) /Eric McC/ (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Dave Schuler               Inasmuch as I'm reluctant to enter into discourse with an Eric... (...) Ah! The watered-down form of Pascal's Wager--don't get me started! 8^) Dave! (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —James Powell             (...) Hey, it stands to reason, what you need is a good satanist. Why? Well, because god will forgive you, whereas the guy downstairs...well...he don't forgive! James (and a free lego brick to ID the book that comes from...it's SF) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                            Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Larry Pieniazek           (...) Tenuous in what way? Were you saying it's logicially unsupportable, or were you threatening fire and brimstone? The latter? If your (stipulated to exist for the sake of this sentence) god sends me to hell, he's not worthy of my worship. I will (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                            Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas           (...) I can just see you as a child at the local amusement park: walking up to the roller coaster where the clown stands with his hand out saying if you're not this tall you can't ride the roller coaster. I can imagine little self-righteous ++Lar (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                            Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Tom Stangl             But YOUR god (assuming he exists) sets the rules, so even if a person goes to hell for their perceived sins, they go there because God made them, through the rules. God, if he truly loved his children, would allow ALL into heaven, regardless of (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Dave Schuler               (...) One could argue that God truly loves His children and so gives them the choice to accept or reject His love. In a way, that's a more mature and respectful love than simply saying "I love you so you're in, whether you love me or not." Moreover, (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                    Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —John Neal               (...) Precisely. Excellent point, Dave! (...) Yes. BTW, although clumsy, I try and not refer to God with the masculine pronoun, unless I am specifically referring to the metaphor of God as the Father and we as His children. God is too big for a (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                    Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Dave Schuler               (...) Thanks! It's fun to switch-hit once in a while! (...) Makes sense. I was just subscribing to the big-H "He" tradition, but I wasn't trying to make a statement in my choice of pronoun. Dave! (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                    Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Jon Kozan               (...) So, Dave - what do you really believe? -Jon (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                    Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Tom Stangl                 Why does it matter when debating? Devil's advocate is often the best debating form. (...) -- | Tom Stangl, Technical Support Netscape Communications Corp | Please do not associate my personal views with my employer (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                        Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Jon Kozan                 (...) Certainly. But it avoids having to state your own positions which _is_ a requirement in real debating. So, Tom, what do you believe? -Jon (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                        Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Tom Stangl                 I'm going to pull a Larry here - plowed ground, I've already stated my belief in this group, do your research. You must have a strange definition of debating. IN NO WAY do you have to state your own position to debate. In fact, some of the best (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                        Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —John Neal                   Tom Stangl wrote:. (...) I agree wholeheartedly; in fact, I think it is the *best* way to gain an understanding of an opposing viewpoint. All I can ask a skeptic is to presuppose the existence of God for the sake of argument. Get somewhat (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                            Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Larry Pieniazek                   (...) I am lazy and act in my own self interest as much of the time as I possibly can. And I'm afraid too... Afraid I consider those virtues rather than the denigrating characteristics you make them out to be. I'm not "most people", believe me, but (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                            Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Jon Kozan                   (...) (Larry - you and my brother are so similar it's scary.) I, however, would like to know what it is that _you_believe_. Perhaps you've posted it already, and if so, please point me in the right direction. Beyond all the "standard" arguements on (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                            Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Larry Pieniazek                   (...) If I ain't gonna do easy homework for Dr. Scott (who at least, of late, has been posting some incredibly interesting cites, asking thoughtful questions, and conceding a point here and there (not all of them, mind you :-) ) when he's wrong) I (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                            Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Jon Kozan                     (...) Contrary to your opinion, I didn't skulk away. I'm busy enough trying in every free minute (the few that I have) to keep up with those who spend their entire day in this group :-O Just for you, I'll revisit the posting, and reply. (...) I'm (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                            Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas                   (...) Ah, but it wasn't a "rant" was it? You're just upset that I beat you at your own game. :D Bill (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                            Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Larry Pieniazek                   (...) I'll let it speak for itself, but I find coherency helpful. (...) That implies that I'm a sore loser. On the contrary, I relish losing a hard fought battle against a skilled opponent. Why, just today at lunch, my officemates managed to defeat (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                            Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Jon Kozan                     (...) Yep - the posting statistics are pretty scary in this group. -Jon (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                            Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas                   (...) And yet that was the point. OK, I'm typing really slow here, try to keep up. I was acting like *you* when you go into your little rants to illustrate that you ain't all you think you are. You stepped in it, didn't even see it coming, and are (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                            Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas                   (...) Ooops, Bud Light! (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                        Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Jon Kozan                 (...) I can't debate unless _you_ state, or refer me to your position. Call me lazy, but I couldn't find what you personally believe stated. I tried a few searches, but I don't have time to ready 7000+ messages in this group alone... and then puzzle (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                        Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Tom Stangl                 If it matters (which it doesn't), I am basically agnostic. I won't believe without proof, and NOONE to date has shown proof. I "have faith" that I am right, that God doesn't exist until he taps me on the shoulder, so noone will really be able to (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                        Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Jon Kozan                 Thank-you Tom. I just wanted to be sure exactly where you stand. It's tough posting with people you aren't at all sure of where they stand. So, your belief systems says that you don't know if there is a God. And if there is you need some hard (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                        Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Tom Stangl                 I need Hard Evidence. And The Bible isn't it. (...) -- | Tom Stangl, Technical Support Netscape Communications Corp | Please do not associate my personal views with my employer (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                    Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Dave Schuler               (...) Having read some of the follow-up fallout to that question, I'd like to ask you a question in return before I answer--what do you think I believe, given my stance here and in whatever debates you've read previously? I'm not squirming, by the (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas               (...) He has done just that. He made a way for everyone to enter, some don't want it. I have to object to your statement "regardless of sin", though. You can't justify that statement. If he is holy, he can't do that. Also, for sake of argument, what (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                    Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Christopher L. Weeks               (...) I think what is generally meant when your God is called petty and vengeful is a reference to the popular assertion that regardless of how good we act, if we fail to suck up to him, we go to hell. That's probably what Tom means. It's certainly (...) (24 years ago, 3-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                    Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas               (...) Understood. The point is not how good someone is, we are expected to be good, no brownie points there. Being good is breaking even. The problem is in the deficits we allow. How do we make up for our mistakes? Apologize and correct it in the (...) (24 years ago, 3-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                    Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Christopher L. Weeks                 (...) we (...) Why? Seriously. Is the creation of an individual human life a reasonable analogy? Do you advocate parents having the same rights over their children that you are accepting of your God having over us? (...) I think that creating life (...) (24 years ago, 4-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                        Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas                 (...) All of the following answers are predicated upon a belief that the Bible is true and these answers solely represent It's content. This is not an attempt to "assimilate" anyone. It is merely answers to question posed. (...) Because it's His (...) (24 years ago, 4-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                        Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Christopher L. Weeks                 (...) It sounds like a sucky deal to me. (...) I see. So the right to drop your kids in vats of acid only comes with lots of love. (One might say so much love that we can't really experience it, right?) (...) amusement. (...) But wasn't Satan (...) (24 years ago, 4-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                        Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas                 (...) Fair enough. (...) Dealt with that below. Not equivalent. (...) God didn't create Satan. He created Lucifer, who was His Archangel. Lucifer coveted God's position and wanted to be like God and receive man's worship. A third of God's angels (...) (24 years ago, 5-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                        Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Tom Stangl                 (...) Knowing that it would happen, but creating Lucifer anyways, he in effect DID cause it. Just as he has caused all sin in history, as he created everyone knowing exactly what would happen. (...) Sure he did - he created us, knowing we would (...) (24 years ago, 5-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                        Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —David Eaton                   (...) That's the long disputed point-- and to that end, how about the question "If God can do anything, can he make a problem so difficult that HE can't solve it?" Basically, the Christian idea of free will says to me that God allowed for the (...) (24 years ago, 5-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                        Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas                 (...) Knowing is not the same as causing. Parents teach their children to walk knowing that they will fall during the process. Does that mean that they pushed them? Did they cause them to fall? No, of course not. All of Gid's attributes must (...) (24 years ago, 6-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                    Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Tom Stangl               (...) So what you are saying is the OT is wrong, the NT is right? The ORIGINAL thoughts and ideas written (by PEOPLE, remember) were too icky, so they watered them down in the NT, and you choose to believe the adulterated ideas? <squirm, squirm> (...) (24 years ago, 4-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                    Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas               (...) Not at all. The OT served it's purpose - according to Galations it's purpose was to lead us to Christ. The Law served as a vehicle to make manifest the condition of man. Jeremiah 31:31-34 opens the door for the NT which will supersede the Old. (...) (24 years ago, 5-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas             (...) But there's the rub. No one goes to hell for their sins! How could they if Christ paid for them? The answer follows the famous John 3:16, thru the end of the chapter. Read it for yourself. Bill (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Dave Schuler               (...) Hmm.. That's interesting, and I hadn't considered it that way. My understanding was that Christ's death provided atonement for Originial Sin, but I didn't realize it's applications to sins-in-progress. Is that part of the "new and everlasting (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Larry Pieniazek             (...) Right you are, Bill. They go to Hell for not rubbing blue mud in their bellybuttons (1). Er, that is, for not accepting Christ's love, putting aside whatever logical qualms about the contradictoriness, unprovability, or non-necessity of God's (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas             (...) I remember this from the first time it was brought up :) Talk about mental images!? (...) <Typical ++Blather> Many of your "qualms" are based on your own misconceptions. (...) I like this. Again, I'm with ya on that one. (...) You betray (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Christopher L. Weeks             (...) Is this what you say to everyone whose hackles raise at being enslaved? "Oh, so you're someone else's property. So someone else gets to play with you as a toy and if you're not entertaining, put you to death. Grouse, whine, cry! Just get over (...) (24 years ago, 3-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas             (...) No one here is enslaved! The above whining is based on a misconception about Diety. Many people in history have been enslaved and don't whine about it or blame it for why they can't get ahead. No, I have no patience for whining. It's a Marine (...) (24 years ago, 3-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                            Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Larry Pieniazek           (...) Is your heaven like a roller coaster, so dangerous then that it needs rules to keep people out, because it's "unsafe" for them, who would qualify for the other brands of rides (merry go round, ferris wheel, and other rides)/heavens??? I'm a (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                            Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas             (...) I can hear Britney singing, "Ooops, I did it again...", right now. LAR!! You fell for trap #3. You're making this too easy. I'm waiting for trap #2 also. Will he see it? Will he side-step it? Ignore it? Fall right in like he has twice already? (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Larry Pieniazek               (...) something that bears repeating... (...) ++Lar (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Selçuk Göre             (...) So you gave irrelevant illustrations and get responses about how irrelevant was. I just can't see any genius trap in it. You obviously seem to see so, but again, I still can't figure out what do you want the achieve with this plan of yours, (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Lindsay Frederick Braun             [Much snippage] (...) I can see where he's going with it. It's an old chestnut, basically that only the brave and committed--those above 'so tall' (or is it a statement on predestination--only those predisposed to being this tall? Bill, have you (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas               (...) No - I'm not a Calvinist, not Arminian either. I don't accept all of either of their writings. Calvin claimed to be infallable! Couldn't take him seriously after that. Arminius I liked a little more, but don't agree with most of what he says - (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas               (...) I want to answer this a little better now that I have more time: As to Calvinism - I don't buy into the whole hyper-Calvinistic TULIP thing, but I do believe in predestination in the way that Selcuk described it earlier (in reference to (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas             (...) Zoinks! I forget this part in my second reply - I'm still heavily medicated! The analogy was only intended to be about Larry as a child (--Lar) on a roller coaster, which actually means it's not really an analogy, I suppose. I was only (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —John Neal             Bill Farkas wrote: Speaking of Calvin...;-) -John <snip> (...) <snip> (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                            Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas           (...) Who said anything about heaven? That was part of the trap...you assuming too much. The other part of the trap is your incessant ability to nitpick about minor things and miss the entire, OBVIOUS point. This was not about theology, it was about (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                        Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —John Neal         (...) Self-rewarding good-doing isn't by definition altruistic. (...) Christians certainly don't do good for fear of hell. Christianity 101: Saved by Grace. Nothing anyone can do can curry God's love-- it is unconditionally given. Christians do (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                        Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Tom Stangl         (...) Earning brownie points to get into heaven is self-rewarding, so I guess you are saying Christians are NEVER altruistic? (...) Yet your god sends people to Hell. "I love you, but go suffer for an eternity". No thanks. -- Tom Stangl ***(URL) (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                        Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Frank Filz           (...) Well, there are Christians who claim that it doesn't matter what you do, if you are among the "elect", you've already got your ticket to heaven. Now I guess they can still claim that God is the force that motivates them to good, but so many (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                            Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Larry Pieniazek             (...) Nobody HERE ever does that, though. ++Lar (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                            Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Scott Arthur           (...) “Science has proof without any certainty. Creationists have certainty without any proof.” - Ashley Montague I was thinking about god last night. I think part of the problem with parts of this debate is the need of modern society to break (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                        Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —John Neal           (...) Tom, you are not *listening*-- one more time, because it is the crux of the Gospel (Good News) *There is NOTHING you can do to EARN God's love. God loves us all THE SAME, whether we go around murdering children or serve him as Pope. God (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                            Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Selçuk Göre           (...) I got the impression that the faith concept is a rather different in Christianity. I mean, as I know of from the Islam, faith means god knows everything, including our future, so he already knows how I will act in future cases. The same Islam (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                            Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Jon Kozan             (...) A popularly debated question in Christianity. Succinctly - 1) God knows everything - both past, present and future. 2) God exists apart from time and is not subject to it, ntering it as He wills. 3) God's knowledge doesn't equal control. Just (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Selçuk Göre             (...) Uhm... Nothing different then, just same as the Islamic approach. Point 2 does not mean anything (what on earth does "apart from time and is not subject to it, entering it as he wills" mean to us poor human beings?), but for the other points, (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Jon Kozan             (...) Knowing (if I was God) something - a path is drawn - doesn't mean that I drew the line. You still draw the line - I am just a witness to it. Many, many people get hung up on this point. (...) Perhaps that's a theological point of departure for (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                                Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Selçuk Göre             (...) Actually, that should be as: Everything is came from god, everything evolves under his control, either good or bad. Anyway, just for knowledge. By the way, for your other question, I was muslim before, now agnostic/atheist/don't care/etc., (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                            Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —John Neal           (...) I fully appreciate your questions. Anyone who argues here for the sake of argument is a fool and a waster of time. These questions for me strike at the very reason I choose to get up every day and live. Albert Camus, a great (IMO) (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                            Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Selçuk Göre           (...) Wow, that's the answer John. I really appreciated it. I think the only answer for any belief can be "I believe/don't believe it, because I like it this way ay don't feel any need to have any evidences for it" and till now you are the only one (...) (24 years ago, 4-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                        Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Jon Kozan           (...) Seems to me, Tom, that your struggling here... If God didn't allow us to suffer, He would be a controlling entity - and we mere automatons. We do have choise - that is required by true love. I'd be really interested to know what it is that you (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                            Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Lindsay Frederick Braun           (...) *The Unitarian perks up* Now, if God is the alpha and omega, knows all past, present, and future, is there really any Free Will beyond simple human Brownian motion? That's the Calvinist model, that we don't really have Free Will, but that our (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                        Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Jon Kozan         (...) Seems to me, Tom, that you're struggling here... If God didn't allow us to suffer, He would be a controlling entity - and we mere automatons. We do have choise - that is required by true love. I'd be really interested to know what it is that (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                    Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Christopher L. Weeks       (...) of (...) sentient (...) in (...) Altruism could be an instinct in a sentient being. And instincts aren't universally followed. Why do you folks insist on pretending that we're so different from the rest of the beasts? <...here we go (...) (24 years ago, 3-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —David Eaton     (...) I didn't notice anyone point this out, but here's the problem I have with that. Where's the humanity? What happened to free will? If the impulse to do good comes from God, does that mean that humans are incapable of wanting to do good on their (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —John Neal     (...) When I mentioned "impulses to do good, I was referring to atheists" Christians do good in response to God's love. God loves me, and so in joy I want to share this love with others. This is the Gospel, that God loves us all, and wants us to (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Selçuk Göre       (...) I don't get the impression of this by just looking the entire history of human life on earth..:-) Selçuk (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)                Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —David Eaton     (...) Well, ok, here's the question. Do humans truly have the ability to derive good on their own? Can humans, without God's help, truly be good? Or can we only act good simply by mishap or flawed thinking? When an atheist takes a homeless man into (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

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