Subject:
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Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Fri, 1 Dec 2000 16:53:45 GMT
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Viewed:
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1303 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Selçuk Göre writes:
>
> Jon Kozan wrote:
> >
> > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Selçuk Göre writes:
> >
> > > I got the impression that the faith concept is a rather different in
> > > Christianity. I mean, as I know of from the Islam, faith means god knows
> > > everything, including our future, so he already knows how I will act in
> > > future cases. The same Islam also says that, just like other religions,
> > > you are responsible from your acts, because you choose it by using your
> > > free will. This produces a quick question: If he already know how we
> > > act, if there is no escape from faith, then it is already known by him
> > > where we will go at the end (heaven or hell) so how can we are acting
> > > with out own free will? To be more clear how can these both things can
> > > be accurate at the same time, side by side? This is the one of the
> > > biggest flaws in Islam to me.
> >
> > > Since you already said that in Christianity, people assumed to act with
> > > their own free will so they will face the consequences of their own acts
> > > at the end, too. So what about the knowledge level of Christian God
> > > about our future? He know it from the beginning or not? If he knows it
> > > just as Islam God (how many gods are there by the way..:-), is there any
> > > explanation for the above paradox in Christianity? Believe it or not,
> > > I'm just asking for the sake of knowledge.
> >
> > A popularly debated question in Christianity.
> > Succinctly -
> > 1) God knows everything - both past, present and future.
> > 2) God exists apart from time and is not subject to it, entering it as He
> > wills.
> > 3) God's knowledge doesn't equal control. Just as I may know something
> > happened, doesn't mean I made it happen.
> > 4) Foreknowledge - knowing something before it happens - doesn't mean you
> > made it happen. (a example on a much smaller scale - just because I know the
> > sun will shine later today doesn' mean I make it shine)
>
>
> Uhm... Nothing different then, just same as the Islamic approach. Point
> 2 does not mean anything (what on earth does "apart from time and is not
> subject to it, entering it as he wills" mean to us poor human beings?),
> but for the other points, if a path is drawn for me by whoever, (if it
> is known, it is already drawn, I can't see any alternative to it) I have
> no options. Same singularity I think. If it is drawn, independent from
> having control on it or not, I have still no choice, whether I have
> acting knowingly or not does not matter.
Knowing (if I was God) something - a path is drawn - doesn't mean that I drew
the line. You still draw the line - I am just a witness to it.
Many, many people get hung up on this point.
> Again I have a problem with this "knowledge doesn't mean control"
> statement over there. Islam also suggests that everything is came from
> god, everything evolves under his control.
Perhaps that's a theological point of departure for Islam from Christianity.
Christianity would say that simply because everything came from God doesn't
mean he is the maker of it all. What I mean is this:
God allows things that are unwise, unjust etc because he loves us enough to let
us make those rational decisions which may depart from His will for us. If He
didn't allow wrong choice, we would have no freewill and would be mere robots.
-Jon
(hope it helps)
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Message has 1 Reply:
 | | Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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| (...) Actually, that should be as: Everything is came from god, everything evolves under his control, either good or bad. Anyway, just for knowledge. By the way, for your other question, I was muslim before, now agnostic/atheist/don't care/etc., (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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| (...) Uhm... Nothing different then, just same as the Islamic approach. Point 2 does not mean anything (what on earth does "apart from time and is not subject to it, entering it as he wills" mean to us poor human beings?), but for the other points, (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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