Subject:
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Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Fri, 1 Dec 2000 17:10:08 GMT
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Reply-To:
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[ssgore@superonline.com]IHateSpam[]
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Viewed:
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1294 times
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Jon Kozan wrote:
>
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Selçuk Göre writes:
> >
> > Jon Kozan wrote:
> > >
> > > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Selçuk Göre writes:
> > >
> > > > I got the impression that the faith concept is a rather different in
> > > > Christianity. I mean, as I know of from the Islam, faith means god knows
> > > > everything, including our future, so he already knows how I will act in
> > > > future cases. The same Islam also says that, just like other religions,
> > > > you are responsible from your acts, because you choose it by using your
> > > > free will. This produces a quick question: If he already know how we
> > > > act, if there is no escape from faith, then it is already known by him
> > > > where we will go at the end (heaven or hell) so how can we are acting
> > > > with out own free will? To be more clear how can these both things can
> > > > be accurate at the same time, side by side? This is the one of the
> > > > biggest flaws in Islam to me.
> > >
> > > > Since you already said that in Christianity, people assumed to act with
> > > > their own free will so they will face the consequences of their own acts
> > > > at the end, too. So what about the knowledge level of Christian God
> > > > about our future? He know it from the beginning or not? If he knows it
> > > > just as Islam God (how many gods are there by the way..:-), is there any
> > > > explanation for the above paradox in Christianity? Believe it or not,
> > > > I'm just asking for the sake of knowledge.
> > >
> > > A popularly debated question in Christianity.
> > > Succinctly -
> > > 1) God knows everything - both past, present and future.
> > > 2) God exists apart from time and is not subject to it, entering it as He
> > > wills.
> > > 3) God's knowledge doesn't equal control. Just as I may know something
> > > happened, doesn't mean I made it happen.
> > > 4) Foreknowledge - knowing something before it happens - doesn't mean you
> > > made it happen. (a example on a much smaller scale - just because I know the
> > > sun will shine later today doesn' mean I make it shine)
> >
> >
> > Uhm... Nothing different then, just same as the Islamic approach. Point
> > 2 does not mean anything (what on earth does "apart from time and is not
> > subject to it, entering it as he wills" mean to us poor human beings?),
> > but for the other points, if a path is drawn for me by whoever, (if it
> > is known, it is already drawn, I can't see any alternative to it) I have
> > no options. Same singularity I think. If it is drawn, independent from
> > having control on it or not, I have still no choice, whether I have
> > acting knowingly or not does not matter.
>
> Knowing (if I was God) something - a path is drawn - doesn't mean that I drew
> the line. You still draw the line - I am just a witness to it.
> Many, many people get hung up on this point.
>
> > Again I have a problem with this "knowledge doesn't mean control"
> > statement over there. Islam also suggests that everything is came from
> > god, everything evolves under his control.
Actually, that should be as:
Everything is came from god, everything evolves under his control,
either good or bad.
Anyway, just for knowledge.
By the way, for your other question, I was muslim before, now
agnostic/atheist/don't care/etc., what ever you can call.
For clarity, I don't jab at christianity, but concept of religion, since
the beginning.
Selçuk
>
> Perhaps that's a theological point of departure for Islam from Christianity.
>
> Christianity would say that simply because everything came from God doesn't
> mean he is the maker of it all. What I mean is this:
> God allows things that are unwise, unjust etc because he loves us enough to let
> us make those rational decisions which may depart from His will for us. If He
> didn't allow wrong choice, we would have no freewill and would be mere robots.
>
> -Jon
> (hope it helps)
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Message is in Reply To:
 | | Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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| (...) Knowing (if I was God) something - a path is drawn - doesn't mean that I drew the line. You still draw the line - I am just a witness to it. Many, many people get hung up on this point. (...) Perhaps that's a theological point of departure for (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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