Subject:
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Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Tue, 28 Nov 2000 22:20:38 GMT
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Viewed:
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1990 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal writes:
>
>
> Bill Farkas wrote:
>
> > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Frank Filz writes:
> > > Bill Farkas wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Now if you're arguing for the "depravity of man", then it will be
> > > difficult for us to find common ground.
> >
> > I do subscribe to that philosophy, and I don't think it is remotely
> > arguable, too much evidence all around. Most people object to it as a matter
> > of pride (more selfishness) which I understand, and that is why I didn't
> > state it so blatantly. I respect the fact that you don't accept it and do
> > not seek to force it upon you.
>
> If I may interject, because you two have crystallized the crux of the matter here for me. In a perfect world, Libertopia is, IMO, the best form of
> government you could have. Problem is, you need to have the perfect world *first*. People need to already be respectful and responsible for the system to
> work. I don't see a way for that process to happen. In fact, I see the world evolving the opposite way, where people are becoming more and more *un*civil
> and less and less willing to take personal responsibility.
I like Libertarianism...on paper. In reality, it seems to rely on
"enlightened self-interest", which sounds fine again...on paper. The stand
about "Yes, Libertarianism would allow racism (and then the rush to get the
rest out) but-it-wouldn't-happen-because-of-market-forces" I don't believe
is accurate. Just look at what was going on when racism was basically
allowed before the civil rights movement. Awful. That is a big reason why
the Libertarian Party has a hard time getting members beyond white males.
The Libertarians are very sincere, but I think they are naive on this point.
The examples of businesses not policing themselves are numerous: look into
air brakes and the train companies, for example. Libertarians feel things
will basically be self-policing, but I feel it will denegerate into a
tyranny of the haves versus the have-nots (basically, money and
connections). In a perfectly informed society, it could all well work, but
as you note, you have to have that perfect society already.
>
> And so, it begs the question, if you already *have* a perfect world, then *any* system will do, including anarchy.
>
> Humans are basically selfish. Frank, you say that that isn't necessarily a bad thing. Maybe not, if you spin it right, but I think that it is the basic
> human flaw. We will reach a perfect world a lot faster if people thought of the other guy before they thought of themselves, rather than waiting for some
> slow, social evolution to eventually take place.
I'm not sure if selfish and self-interested are the same thing. I gotta
take care of me first, but that doesn't mean I won't look out for others as
long as I get the first under control.
>
> But ultimately, I think Frank is right: if you believe that people are basically good, then you think that Libertopia will work. If you think that people
> are basically selfish to the disregard of others, then you know that Libertopia won't work, and the debate is moot, because the real debate is whether there
> is inherent goodness in Mankind or not.
Libertopia can work, I just don't think it's *likely*, except perhaps on a
smaller scale than the whole U.S. (but then again, I think communism works
better on a smaller scale where everyone knows everyone else).
>
> I have argued that man is not Good, that only God is Good. I have also asked the question "from where does Good come?", and have not gotten a satisfactory
> answer (from Atheists).
I'm not sure what God has to do with it. Which god? Of the Bible? Hindus
are incapable of good, then? Atheists are incapable of good? I think you
are confusing Man is Not Perfect with Man is Not Good. Man is not
inherently Good - I'd agree with that, but I don't think I'd agree that Man
is inherently Not Good. My apologies if I'm confused about your point.
>
> Sorry to have reduced this to a debate involving God, but that is what I see the boiling down to. Maybe it's true what they say about all debates....:-)
>
> -John
Governments are an institution of man, not God. Well, maybe in a theocracy...
:-)
Bruce
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Message is in Reply To:
 | | Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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| (...) If I may interject, because you two have crystallized the crux of the matter here for me. In a perfect world, Libertopia is, IMO, the best form of government you could have. Problem is, you need to have the perfect world *first*. People need (...) (26 years ago, 28-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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