Subject:
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Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Tue, 28 Nov 2000 19:25:09 GMT
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Reply-To:
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{johnneal@uswest}StopSpam{.net}
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Viewed:
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551 times
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Bill Farkas wrote:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Frank Filz writes:
> > Bill Farkas wrote:
> >
> >
> > Now if you're arguing for the "depravity of man", then it will be
> > difficult for us to find common ground.
>
> I do subscribe to that philosophy, and I don't think it is remotely
> arguable, too much evidence all around. Most people object to it as a matter
> of pride (more selfishness) which I understand, and that is why I didn't
> state it so blatantly. I respect the fact that you don't accept it and do
> not seek to force it upon you.
If I may interject, because you two have crystallized the crux of the matter here for me. In a perfect world, Libertopia is, IMO, the best form of
government you could have. Problem is, you need to have the perfect world *first*. People need to already be respectful and responsible for the system to
work. I don't see a way for that process to happen. In fact, I see the world evolving the opposite way, where people are becoming more and more *un*civil
and less and less willing to take personal responsibility.
And so, it begs the question, if you already *have* a perfect world, then *any* system will do, including anarchy.
Humans are basically selfish. Frank, you say that that isn't necessarily a bad thing. Maybe not, if you spin it right, but I think that it is the basic
human flaw. We will reach a perfect world a lot faster if people thought of the other guy before they thought of themselves, rather than waiting for some
slow, social evolution to eventually take place.
But ultimately, I think Frank is right: if you believe that people are basically good, then you think that Libertopia will work. If you think that people
are basically selfish to the disregard of others, then you know that Libertopia won't work, and the debate is moot, because the real debate is whether there
is inherent goodness in Mankind or not.
I have argued that man is not Good, that only God is Good. I have also asked the question "from where does Good come?", and have not gotten a satisfactory
answer (from Atheists).
Sorry to have reduced this to a debate involving God, but that is what I see the boiling down to. Maybe it's true what they say about all debates....:-)
-John
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Message has 3 Replies:
 | | Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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| (...) This has been my contention for some time, and I'm gratified to hear it restated so eloquently. My problem has never been with the conclusions in Libertopia's arguments, but rather in the assumptions necessary for the system to work. In fact, (...) (24 years ago, 28-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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| (...) I agree, not all selfishness is bad, yet I believe it to be the root of most of what ails us. Any crime or perversion can be sifted down to an illicit focus on meeting a selfish desire. Again, our freedom only exists in our ability to respect (...) (24 years ago, 28-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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