Subject:
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Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Fri, 1 Dec 2000 07:54:00 GMT
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Reply-To:
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{johnneal@uswest}NoSpam{.net}
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1003 times
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Selçuk Göre wrote:
> John Neal wrote:
> >
> > Dave Schuler wrote:
>
> > > > I do good things because I am actively called to do good things, not because
> > > > of some altruistic impulse (although I am not sure of the origin of such
> > > > impulses in atheists-- perhaps they are from God?)
> > >
> > > This comes back to the notion of a non-Christian's pursuing ideals which
> > > parallel Christian ideals--are they still "good?"
> >
> > A Christian does good in response to God's love. God loved us first and our
> > response is to reflect that love as best we can to others in our daily lives.
> > That is why Christians do good. Why an atheist does is beyond me, but if anyone
> > knows, please do tell.
> >
> > > > > I flatly reject the notion that we are doomed to doom ourselves.
> > > >
> > > > Me, too. I was speaking hypothetically as if there weren't a God.
> > >
> > > And I was speaking literally as if there weren't a God. With or without
> > > Him, there is no evidence that we are self-dooming.
> >
> > Holocaust, to take one of your examples. How can "civilized" people can allow
> > that to happen; to participate, and to allow themselves to be convinced that it
> > was justified? And please go lightly on the Germans; what happened there could
> > happen *anywhere*.
>
> Those Germans were Christians, right? And most of the US people (at
> least the first settlers who "cleaned the indians") are also Christians,
> right? The southern states of US, who known to be more religious and
> conservative than the northern part of country (it can be just an
> illusion, but I'm an ignorant middle eastern you know), were the ones
> fighting against their Christian brothers from the north, to preserve
> their right to having slaves, right? Crusades to the middle east, of
> which the sole purpose is plundering the lands where on which they
> placed their feet, was made "in the name of god", right? The many nasty
> things performed by the "engizition" (sp?) during the middle age also
> performed for the name of god, right? First in Iran, now in Afghanistan,
> government tortures their own citizens for the sake of god, right?
>
> Conclusion?
"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are
ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns,
or figs from thistles? So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears
evil fruit. A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus
you will know them by their fruits."
(Matt 7:15-20)
> People can rationalize their acts with their beliefs, and can do it very
> easily. Any given religion cannot provide "high moral grounds" for
> anyone,
Of course it can.
> and I think I'm safe to believe it otherwise, which is "we would
> have self doomed ourselves if there is no religion" is nonsense.
Godless men leading a path to destruction? Makes sense to me. You have even cited
examples for me.
-John
> Selçuk
>
> >
> > > > Luckily, there is:-)
> > >
> > > Next time you and I are out together you'll have to point Him out to me.
> >
> > I will from here-- God is inside you.
> >
> > > > I am not a doomsday predictor by any means. All I am asserting is that that
> > > > would be the fate of a Godless society. Certainly cultures and societies in
> > > > history have self-destructed because of moral decay.
> > >
> > > This, too, is 20/20 hindsight and smacks of revisionism. Did Rome, for
> > > instance, fall because of moral decay or because of longterm lead poisoning?
> > > Did the Incas fall because of moral decay or because Pizarro had gunpowder
> > > and European diseases? One could say (and I suspect that one has said and
> > > will say again) that God acted through Pizarro or through the tainted lead,
> > > a la Mysterious Ways, but that's pretty thin.
> > >
> > > > And then take a look at the Jews.
> > >
> > > First of all, to refer to "the Jews" as a single unit is overly simplistic
> > > and utterly (deliberately?) fails to recognize the vast and disparate
> > > ideologies, cultures, histories, and experiences of the sub-groups, in much
> > > the same way that one might incorrectly refer to "American Indians" or
> > > "Africans" as a single people.
> >
> > A Jew is a Jew by lineage, but also one whose God is YHWH of the Torah. They all
> > have that history which gives them their identity. It *is* that simple.
> > American Indians and Africans are in no way comparable. In fact, the Jewish
> > phenomenon is quite unique.
> >
> > > > They have survived as a people (through invasions, transplantations,
> > > > exterminations) for thousands of years because they have centered their
> > > > existence upon God. How else to explain it?
> > >
> > > Secondly, one could also argue that they (sic) have really gotten the
> > > short end of the stick for millennia; is that also "because they have
> > > centered their existence upon God?" May we consider generations of
> > > persecution to be the rewards of God-centric living?
> >
> > Absolutely. Being persecuted for your faith is the most powerful way to
> > strengthen faith.
> >
> > > Obviously that's not
> > > what you're suggesting, but everything in this argument depends on how you
> > > spin it.
> > > Elie Wiesel in "Night" recalled an episode during The Holocaust when,
> > > while lying in a sickbed of some kind (the details escape me, but not the
> > > bottom line), a dying man in the next bed proclaimed that he believed more
> > > in Hitler
> >
> > Oops;-)
> >
> > -John
> >
> > > than in God, because (and this part I *do* recall clearly) "Hitler
> > > kept his promises to the Jews."
> > >
> > > Dave!
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Message is in Reply To:
 | | Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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| (...) Those Germans were Christians, right? And most of the US people (at least the first settlers who "cleaned the indians") are also Christians, right? The southern states of US, who known to be more religious and conservative than the northern (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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