Subject:
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Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Wed, 29 Nov 2000 21:21:38 GMT
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Reply-To:
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JOHNNEAL@USWEST.antispamNET
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Viewed:
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840 times
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Dave Schuler wrote:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal writes:
>
> > Besides, my understanding of altruism is that it is unconditional and
> > nselfish. I would think that that would be *counter* productive to evolution
> > (nice guys finish last idea). Altruistic people get trampled all of the
> > time, but they have a better understanding of what is important in this world.
>
> Current evolutionary theory identifies benefits in altruism, both among
> members of the same species and even accross species lines. Such altruism
> isn't necessarily conscious or deliberate, but it's altruism all the same.
I don't understand how "altruism in animals" is different than an instinct of
cooperation, compromise, etc. I guess I'm saying that I think only sentient
beings who have free will (or the illusion of it-- different debate, but I
digress) are *able* to be altruistic.
> The idea is that, while competition breeds diversity and strength through
> evolution, compromise and cooperation, in the long term, fosters the help of
> the ecosystem (macro- or micro- scopic).
>
> > I will say this: without God having had acted in the world over time, we as
> > free-thinking humans would have destroyed each other by now. Without a moral
> > compass that is beyond human understanding, we are doomed. *That* is our
> > nature.
>
> Very James Cameron of you! 8^) Ultimately, though, that assertion is
> basically untestable and therefore without much predictive value. How,
> precisely, has God "acted in the world," other than in broad, metaphorical
> senses?
God acts in the world through His people. If I as a Christian give to a charity,
then that charity has been blessed by God (through me). If I as a Christian enact
a series of events which prevent a war or some other catastrophe, it is God who is
ultimately the reason. I do good things because I am actively called to do good
things, not because of some altruistic impulse (although I am not sure of the
origin of such impulses in atheists-- perhaps they are from God?)
> I flatly reject the notion that we are doomed to doom ourselves.
Me, too. I was speaking hypothetically as if there weren't a God. Luckily, there
is:-)
> There is
> no indication of this whatsoever, and in fact the closest we've ever come
> (arguably the Bay of Pigs episode) was averted by human hands. For that
> matter, we've only had it in our power to doom ourselves during the last 60
> years (a little less than that, since we first developed a sufficient
> nuclear stockpile to do the job), and I think that humans can be credited
> with keeping themselves from the brink during that brief period.
> Any attempt to extrapolate a full man-made destruction of humanity based
> solely on episodes of cruelty and warfare (which, in the history of the
> world itself, might be termed anecdotal) is at best speculative and at worst
> paranoid and reactionary.
> As I reread that little bit of vitriol I feel I should point out that I'm
> not accusing you of holding that specific view, of course; I'm just
> addressing what I find to be a shortcoming of fatalistic predictions of doom
> without divine help.
I am not a doomsday predictor by any means. All I am asserting is that that would
be the fate of a Godless society. Certainly cultures and societies in history
have self-destructed because of moral decay. And then take a look at the Jews.
They have survived as a people (through invasions, transplantations,
exterminations) for thousands of years because they have centered their existence
upon God. How else to explain it?
-John
>
>
> Dave!
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Message has 3 Replies:
 | | Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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| (...) I likewise don't understand how "altruism" in sentient beings is different from an instinct of cooperation, compromise, etc., nor why in sentient beings we must ascribe such altruism to a higher power. (...) If you as a Christian, in a fit of (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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| (...) I didn't notice anyone point this out, but here's the problem I have with that. Where's the humanity? What happened to free will? If the impulse to do good comes from God, does that mean that humans are incapable of wanting to do good on their (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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