Subject:
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Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Mon, 4 Dec 2000 06:33:05 GMT
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1114 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Christopher L. Weeks writes:
All of the following answers are predicated upon a belief that the Bible is
true and these answers solely represent It's content. This is not an attempt
to "assimilate" anyone. It is merely answers to question posed.
>
> > Assuming he created life, he makes the rules.
>
> Why? Seriously.
Because it's His show. It's His ball and bat. It's His earth and He made
you. He gave you your life and in the end He will ask for it back.
>
> Is the creation of an individual human life a reasonable analogy? Do you
> advocate parents having the same rights over their children that you are
> accepting of your God having over us?
Yes, if they are as Holy and loving as He.
>
> > So, why is it an issue anyway? Warning: subjectively Biblical answer
> > following! Speaking from a Biblical perspective only, God created life
> > because He wanted to love it.
>
> I think that creating life entails responsibility to that life. If we create
> virtual people, it won't be 'good' to run virtual hell just for our amusement.
But it's not for His amusement. It was created for Satan and his
(Satan's)angels. This is a misconception, any conclusions based on it are
not sound.
>
> > He doesn't want that - He wants to "walk with us in the cool of the
> > garden". So He institutes an excruciatingly simple remedy that anyone could
> > apply making it possible for the two to be reunited.
>
> And with all His powers, the only options he bothered to create for us is
> heaven and hell for after we pass on? So your God is a "its my way or the
> highway kind of god."
Not at all. The key is this: in the beginning he created a garden, put man
in it and loved him. Man sinned. Look at the end of Revelation, it ends with
God and man in a paradise - just like at the beginning. Everything in
between is the purging of sin from God's creation. The point is to get
things back to what they were intended to be in the first place. You forget
that God is bound by His own holiness. He cannot cut corners. If He just
pardons sinners for no reason, he is no longer Holy and Just, Satan wins and
sits on the throne. Satan is God's oversight board in a manner of speaking.
If God is the least bit unfair or unjust (or whatever fault could be
implied), Satan wins.
You cannot forget that Hell was created for Satan and his angels - it is
crucial to any understanding of the matter.
Besides, what other options would you expect? What would be the point?
>
> > God hates sin because it separates Him from the ones He loves period.
>
> But he could have made it such that sin didn't separate us from him. Likewise
> he could have built a universe where we had some evidence of His grace so that
> basically everyone would want to walk in his bitchen garden.
But He did make a way so your objection is moot. Why didn't He make one
*you* like? How would it be possible to make a way for all the different
opinions in the world. Besides, that wouldn't be just.
>
> > Those who do not accept His remedy spurn his affections.
>
> Not me. I don't accept that remedy, and yet I don't spurn His affections. I
> simply have no evidence that such affections exist.
You do so in the act of not accepting His remedy. You are in effect saying,
"I don't need Your help, I can do it myself."
And you do have evidence of such affections: in every breath you breathe.
The Bible says that every good gift comes from the Father of Lights. Every
good thing in your life is because of Him (Biblically speaking).
> How could I accept a remedy that I can't see, hear, feel, or believe?
I admit that you can't "see" it. But you can certainly hear, feel and
believe it. I did. (Obviously subjective, not persuasive.)
>
> > Remember, the assumption is that if He made the game, He makes the rules.
>
> Fine. I can go along with that for the sake of this discussion. So if I make
> a game with really dumb rules, that lasts forever, you'd be willing to play
> happily? What if the next time you plated monopoly (a perfect example of a
> really dumb game) you were told that there was another rule that you'd never
> played with? Your fellow pulls a scrap of paper out from under the 500s that
> says, if you donate all your money to free parking as soon as you get it, and
> continue to do so for the entire game, you'll win big!
You have not demonstrated that the rules are dumb. You have demonstrated
that you do not understand the rules (as given in the Bible.)
A common misconception is that you have to check your individuality at the
door and become a carbon copy of that guy who heads the Christian Coalition.
Not so. You don't have to give up a bunch of stuff you enjoy and then you'll
be fit to join the club. It's not servitude, it's gratitude. I do what I do
because I want to, not because I'm trying to obey the rules or get squashed.
>
> > God does not condemn a
> > single person without it tearing His heart out. He does it in anguish, not
> > gleefully.
>
> First, why then does he do it? Second, how do you know?
The Bible says: "He is not desirous that any should perish." His Loving
nature also implies it. His sending His Son screams it. There are many other
quotes if you want more.
> Third, if he hated it so darn much, why doesn't he stop? After all, the best >thing about bashing your head against the wall is how good it feels when you >stop.
His righteousness demands it. Is it fair to just let people go if they do
wrong? Is that just? Pardon for no reason is not justice. He is love AND He
is holy.
>
> > The one who is condemned is so by his own hand, God made an easy
> > way out but it was rejected.
>
> Not that easy. I don't believe that weapons in space make noise either. SF
> movies bug me that way.
LOL! Too funny! I never thought of that before. You don't know what you've
just started. I'll never be able to watch one the same way again!
> I have a bad time suspending my disbelief. It is just so with your God. >Maybe it was easy for you, but not for me.
That's fine. It's better to honest about such things. It ain't over til the
fat lady sings.
>
> > Again, all of this is strictly a Biblical
> > perspective in answer to the above questions.
>
> I'm not really sure what that means. Do you mean that your answers are based
> on Biblical passages?
Yes, but it was also a sort of disclaimer so that people remember I am
offering it in response to requests for such answers - that it is not opinion.
>
> > He is not unloving, mean, vengeful or petty when He condemns someone, they
> are.
>
> I see. So you don't see anything wrong with dropping your children into vats
> of acid if they hate you?
Not equivalent. It would be like my children on sinking ship - if I call out
to them and say, "The ship is sinking, come into my life raft." But they
reject my offer and say, "We don't need you, we'll be OK without you," and
then perish.
>
> >
> > I don't get your reasoning. How is He evil? Considering that His motivation
> > is to be reunited with something that is rightfully His in the first place,
>
> I suspect from your kneejerk assumption that many forms of disagreement are
> whining, that you'll rail against this but...
Not so. Disagreement is great. Someone saying they don't like something is
not whining. Whining is quite something else. Whining is that little kid at
the end of "Pet Sematary" saying, "No fair" over and over.
> _I am not anyone's property_. I
> see that I've broken from agreeing with your premises for this discussion, but
> I just couldn't swallow that. Your God doesn't have a right to own me.
Why doesn't He. You wouldn't exist without Him. The body you have came from
Him. Doesn't that deserve something? Not even a little gratitude? Again,
it's His show, His Earth, His air, etc. He has every right. Regardless, He's
not unfair, unjust or overbearing - and the retirement package is awesome.
(Again, this is assuming His existence.)
> If he wants to be reunited with me, he could just drop me an email and we >could talk about it.
He did. Reply to JesusChrist@yahoo.com. You can read the original message in
Matthew, Mark, Luke or John.
>
> If he owns people he is evil. Regardless of his motivation.
On what premise? My two children are mine, but I wouldn't say I "own" them.
Until maturity they are my responsibility and are under my care. If they
decide to reject my authority, to withdraw from my care and run away from
home, then whatever befalls them is on their own heads. I would seek them
out and try to get them to change their minds, but it is their choice.
I said that those He created belong to Him. "Own" is your word.
>
> > it is not evil. His motives are not self-centered, he seeks to avert evil on
> > our behalf.
>
> His motives are not self-centered? Then why does it not matter what I want >and only what he wants? Isn't that the definition of self-centered?
Because He knows better. Toddlers want to swallow hole bottles of aspirin.
Should we let them? It's not self-centered if He has our best interest at heart.
>
> > Besides, this is a criticism that we Christians always endure. That we
> > preach, "Repent or burn!" That's a distortion of the Gospel not found in the
> > NT.
>
> OK, so what happens to me if I opt not to repent?
You reap what you sow.
>
> > I didn't believe solely to avoid a negative. I accepted a positive. Big
> > difference. The NT Gospel is "Repent and receive!"
>
> If I don't receive, then what happens?
The point was that when you repent you receive the good news. It's not
repent and avoid the bad news.
>
> > God made life, He makes
> > the rules. That's how it works here and no one finds fault.
>
> I do.
>
> Chris
Again, that's fine. I have attempted, in my responses, to clear up any
misconceptions which may contribute to that finding.
Bill
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Message is in Reply To:
 | | Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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| (...) we (...) Why? Seriously. Is the creation of an individual human life a reasonable analogy? Do you advocate parents having the same rights over their children that you are accepting of your God having over us? (...) I think that creating life (...) (24 years ago, 4-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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