Subject:
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Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Thu, 30 Nov 2000 03:11:13 GMT
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Viewed:
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1232 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Dave Schuler writes:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Jon Kozan writes:
If I may leap in at this point.....
Just got in from work - I'm on the west coast right now so I'm a little
behind you east and central time-zoners.
I want to make a few points at this juncture with a disclaimer up front: I
enjoyed reading both of your comments (Dave and Jon) and don't presume to
think that either of you need/seek my contribution to the matter. I say that
so as not to seem presumptuous in any way. After reading Dave's request for
two prophecies at the beginning of this thread I was going to use the same
two that Jon did - whom I feel did a superb job as an apologist. As a
Christian myself, I also appreciate Dave's line of reasoning as well. I much
prefer listening to opposing view points because, as I see it, if I surround
myself with only those people and materials that already agree with me, how
am I benefitting myself - it is impossible to grow in such an atmosphere. I
read books of opposing view points more often than those that I agree with
and usually end up adapting both my approach and beliefs in some manner as a
result (which is probably why I haven't gone to college - I don't like
someone else telling me what to think).
Anyhoo, I wanted to comment on the matter of faith, which was borne out a
few times in the discussion above. It is an easy trap for those of us
"thinking" people who happen to believe in Christianity (which I'm sure Big
Lar would say is an oxymoron) to try to offer those things which bolster our
faith as "evidence" that it is a rational "faith" - which IS an oxymoron
because faith by definition can have NO evidence. Those on the opposite side
of this discussion must realize though, that to a Christian, this "faith" is
every bit as tangible as your kitchen table. I know that for myself it has
become something entirely real and about which I have not the minutest
doubt. It is something that I "KNOW" - in the fullest sense of the word - to
be absolutely true, in the sense that one knows his own wife and children
intimately. I know that at this point those of you of the opposing view are
saying, "So what, what does that mean to me?" Absolutely nothing! And it
shouldn't. It is mine. As Larry said, some don't "want" to believe. Great,
and it's not the job of any religious bull in a china shop to go around
acting like a martyr trying to make people "want" it either. About that we
agree. It IS all about faith. It has to be, it's the foundation of the
covenant God made with Abraham - if you accept that story as truth.
And yet, it is frustrating to "know" something that is entirely
unverifiable, to sit by and see it maligned and ridiculed by people who are
not qualified (either by reason of ignorance or inexperience) to say whether
or not it is worthy of adherance. Thus, some Christians try to show
valiantly on the debate field with noble intentions of defending something
of tremendous value to themselves. You may say it's misguided or machismo -
and in my case I confess, though I cannot speak for others - yet it is
equally misguided and machismo to dismiss and/or ridicule someone out of
hand, because you yourself don't agree. Dave, let me say at this point that
I don't believe that's what you were doing, your remarks were far from it
actually. I think there is an equal amount of knee-jerk-reaction on both
sides. These are obviously very deep issues to all participants and as such
elicit profound responses.
Basically, I guess this is my "mea culpa" in admitting that sometimes trying
to offer "evidences" of faith is actually a reprehensible disservice to the
cause of Christianity. I can just see LarryP now, doing the "Ding dong the
witch is dead" dance. Gloat all you want - I still intend to engage in such
debates because I LIKE IT - so there :p !!
Bill
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