Subject:
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Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Thu, 30 Nov 2000 06:14:46 GMT
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Reply-To:
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JOHNNEAL@stopspammersUSWEST.NET
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Viewed:
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851 times
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Dave Schuler wrote:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal writes:
>
> > I don't understand how "altruism in animals" is different than an instinct of
> > cooperation, compromise, etc. I guess I'm saying that I think only sentient
> > beings who have free will (or the illusion of it-- different debate, but I
> > digress) are *able* to be altruistic.
>
> I likewise don't understand how "altruism" in sentient beings is different
> from an instinct of cooperation, compromise, etc.,
Well, wouldn't instincts of altruism *always* be obeyed? Certainly altruism in
sentient beings is random at best.
> nor why in sentient
> beings we must ascribe such altruism to a higher power.
>
> > God acts in the world through His people. If I as a Christian give to a
> > charity, then that charity has been blessed by God (through me).
>
> If you as a Christian, in a fit of pique, cut someone off in traffic, is
> that discourtesy likewise God's doing? Or does God only get props for good
> deeds? (that's rhetorical; I know the answer.)
lol This reminds me of a story a friend told me. His dad was driving and came up
to a stop light behind a car that had a bumper sticker that read "HONK IF YOU
LOVE JESUS" Well, his dad thought "why not?" and gave a little toot toot on his
horn. The guy in the car spun his head around and with a snarl, flipped him the
bird and uttered a few choice expletives. Oops:-)
> > I do good things because I am actively called to do good things, not because
> > of some altruistic impulse (although I am not sure of the origin of such
> > impulses in atheists-- perhaps they are from God?)
>
> This comes back to the notion of a non-Christian's pursuing ideals which
> parallel Christian ideals--are they still "good?"
A Christian does good in response to God's love. God loved us first and our
response is to reflect that love as best we can to others in our daily lives.
That is why Christians do good. Why an atheist does is beyond me, but if anyone
knows, please do tell.
> > > I flatly reject the notion that we are doomed to doom ourselves.
> >
> > Me, too. I was speaking hypothetically as if there weren't a God.
>
> And I was speaking literally as if there weren't a God. With or without
> Him, there is no evidence that we are self-dooming.
Holocaust, to take one of your examples. How can "civilized" people can allow
that to happen; to participate, and to allow themselves to be convinced that it
was justified? And please go lightly on the Germans; what happened there could
happen *anywhere*.
> > Luckily, there is:-)
>
> Next time you and I are out together you'll have to point Him out to me.
I will from here-- God is inside you.
> > I am not a doomsday predictor by any means. All I am asserting is that that
> > would be the fate of a Godless society. Certainly cultures and societies in
> > history have self-destructed because of moral decay.
>
> This, too, is 20/20 hindsight and smacks of revisionism. Did Rome, for
> instance, fall because of moral decay or because of longterm lead poisoning?
> Did the Incas fall because of moral decay or because Pizarro had gunpowder
> and European diseases? One could say (and I suspect that one has said and
> will say again) that God acted through Pizarro or through the tainted lead,
> a la Mysterious Ways, but that's pretty thin.
>
> > And then take a look at the Jews.
>
> First of all, to refer to "the Jews" as a single unit is overly simplistic
> and utterly (deliberately?) fails to recognize the vast and disparate
> ideologies, cultures, histories, and experiences of the sub-groups, in much
> the same way that one might incorrectly refer to "American Indians" or
> "Africans" as a single people.
A Jew is a Jew by lineage, but also one whose God is YHWH of the Torah. They all
have that history which gives them their identity. It *is* that simple.
American Indians and Africans are in no way comparable. In fact, the Jewish
phenomenon is quite unique.
> > They have survived as a people (through invasions, transplantations,
> > exterminations) for thousands of years because they have centered their
> > existence upon God. How else to explain it?
>
> Secondly, one could also argue that they (sic) have really gotten the
> short end of the stick for millennia; is that also "because they have
> centered their existence upon God?" May we consider generations of
> persecution to be the rewards of God-centric living?
Absolutely. Being persecuted for your faith is the most powerful way to
strengthen faith.
> Obviously that's not
> what you're suggesting, but everything in this argument depends on how you
> spin it.
> Elie Wiesel in "Night" recalled an episode during The Holocaust when,
> while lying in a sickbed of some kind (the details escape me, but not the
> bottom line), a dying man in the next bed proclaimed that he believed more
> in Hitler
Oops;-)
-John
> than in God, because (and this part I *do* recall clearly) "Hitler
> kept his promises to the Jews."
>
> Dave!
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Message has 3 Replies:
 | | Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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| (...) Those Germans were Christians, right? And most of the US people (at least the first settlers who "cleaned the indians") are also Christians, right? The southern states of US, who known to be more religious and conservative than the northern (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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| (...) I likewise don't understand how "altruism" in sentient beings is different from an instinct of cooperation, compromise, etc., nor why in sentient beings we must ascribe such altruism to a higher power. (...) If you as a Christian, in a fit of (...) (24 years ago, 29-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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