Subject:
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Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Fri, 1 Dec 2000 08:34:40 GMT
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Reply-To:
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johnneal@uswest./Spamcake/net
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Viewed:
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892 times
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David Eaton wrote:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal writes:
> > I guess I'm saying that I think only sentient
> > beings who have free will (or the illusion of it-- different debate, but I
> > digress) are *able* to be altruistic.
> > [snip]
> > God acts in the world through His people. If I as a Christian give to a
> > charity, then that charity has been blessed by God (through me). If I as a
> > Christian enact a series of events which prevent a war or some other
> > catastrophe, it is God who is ultimately the reason. I do good things
> > because I am actively called to do good things, not because of some
> > altruistic impulse (although I am not sure of the origin of such impulses in
> > atheists-- perhaps they are from God?)
>
> I didn't notice anyone point this out, but here's the problem I have with
> that. Where's the humanity? What happened to free will? If the impulse to do
> good comes from God,
When I mentioned "impulses to do good, I was referring to atheists" Christians do
good in response to God's love. God loves me, and so in joy I want to share this
love with others. This is the Gospel, that God loves us all, and wants us to have
abundant life.
> does that mean that humans are incapable of wanting to
> do good on their own?
No. It is a free decision.
> How about the impulse to do ill? Does that come from
> the Devil? From ourselves? From God?
Ourselves.
> If they come from the Devil, now humans have no impulses. To me, that wipes
> us clean of responsibility. We're just tools with which God and the Devil
> duke it out.
Yes, I agree, but it is not the case.
> If evil impulses come from ourselves, well, isn't that just saying that God
> created us that way and that as inadvertently as you said above, that evil
> impulses are his will too?
NO. God gave us a wonderful gift-- life-- to do with it what we will. It is
God's will to for us to live our lives with abundance. How to do that was
explained by Jesus while he was on earth.
> And therein lies the greatest banality for myself
> since we become more or less playthings for God, without free will at all,
> simply thrown to positive or negative implulse as God sees fit.
>
> Aha, but you would say that although these IMPULSES come from outside
> ourselves, it is our free will that CHOOSES which it shall obey, and therein
> lies our human side!
>
> But my response to that is that we've just pushed the issue out further. The
> definition of good is no longer to commit good actions, but to choose in
> favor of good actions and not evil ones. And to that end, where does the
> impulse come from to choose good over evil? And why is it better to do so?
> Is it based on personal reward? (going to heaven?)
NO. As I've stated before, *nothing* anyone can do can get God to love us any
more or any less--Pope or Mr H., God's love is *un*conditional.
> If so, I would argue that
> such a thing presents humans as evil creatures, since they shall only choose
> to act well insofar as it benefits themselves!
>
> And really, there's a big problem. If we choose good over evil for self
> benefit (going to heaven, at the expense of earthly delights) and evil over
> good for self benefit (earthly gratification at the expense of heaven), how
> is choosing one or the other really different? Is it not simply a decision
> on the part of the particular human as to which he would prefer, earthly
> pleasure or heavenly pleasure? Can you prove that all humans would prefer
> heaven over carnality?
This is a *very* interesting point for me. As C.S. Lewis proposed in his book,
_The Great Divorce_, anyone can go to Heaven if they choose, but some people love
darkness so much and are so prideful that they would rather sulk in "hell"
(defined as separation from God) than swallow their pride and join God. That idea
resonated with me because I believe in a loving God and have trouble with the
concept of a "judging God". That being said, I still can't quite understand how
someone, when confronted with the majesty of God, would choose *not* to be with
God.
I certainly don't have all the answers, but I at least know one thing: that God
is so vastly bigger and more profound than anything we can talk about-- even the
Bible or Christianity. We are so comically insignificant in God's creation, yet
for some reason God chose to create us as a part of that creation. What an honor!
> Can you prove that steak tastes better than green beans?
>
> Anyway, my issue is that according to that philosophy, is either there is no
> free will, or there is no absoloute good.
Don't understand how you got here, but I will say that there is absolute good (as
defined by God). Logically speaking, free will is hard to prove, but in the end I
simply must accept that there is. And even if you "prove" that there isn't free
will, since we don't know outcomes, we can certainly pretend that there is-- it
just makes it harder to take personal responsibility.
-John
>
>
> DaveE
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Message has 2 Replies:
 | | Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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| (...) Well, ok, here's the question. Do humans truly have the ability to derive good on their own? Can humans, without God's help, truly be good? Or can we only act good simply by mishap or flawed thinking? When an atheist takes a homeless man into (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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| (...) I didn't notice anyone point this out, but here's the problem I have with that. Where's the humanity? What happened to free will? If the impulse to do good comes from God, does that mean that humans are incapable of wanting to do good on their (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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