Subject:
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Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Tue, 5 Dec 2000 04:34:25 GMT
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Viewed:
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1168 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Christopher L. Weeks writes:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Bill Farkas writes:
>
> > Because it's His show. It's His ball and bat. It's His earth and He made
> > you. He gave you your life and in the end He will ask for it back.
>
> It sounds like a sucky deal to me.
Fair enough.
>
> > Yes, if they are as Holy and loving as He.
>
> I see. So the right to drop your kids in vats of acid only comes with lots of
> love. (One might say so much love that we can't really experience it, right?)
Dealt with that below. Not equivalent.
>
> >
> > But it's not for His amusement. It was created for Satan and his
> > (Satan's)angels. This is a misconception, any conclusions based on it are
> > not sound.
>
> But wasn't Satan created for his amusement too?
God didn't create Satan. He created Lucifer, who was His Archangel. Lucifer
coveted God's position and wanted to be like God and receive man's worship.
A third of God's angels went with Lucifer. They were cast out. Lucifer chose
to rebel just as we choose to rebel. God did not make it happen. He knew it
would, but He did not cause it.
>
> > > And with all His powers, the only options he bothered to create for us is
> > > heaven and hell for after we pass on? So your God is a "its my way or the
> > > highway kind of god."
> >
> > Not at all. The key is this: in the beginning he created a garden, put man
> > in it and loved him. Man sinned.
>
> Sure. He sinned. But it really is hard to fault him. So it's like putting a
> hungry dog in a yard and tossing a sack of burgers in the yard and yelling at
> him for a while so that he knows he's not supposed to eat the bag, and then
> after you leave and he eats the bag, you petulently beat the dog.
Again, not equivalent. Are we no smarter than a hungry dog?! Besides, there
are dogs who are trained not to eat things in such circumstances, for their
own protection.
>
> > Besides, what other options would you expect? What would be the point?
>
> Oh, maybe some fairness.
It's already entirely fair - it's equal to all.
>
> > > > God hates sin because it separates Him from the ones He loves period.
> > >
> > > But he could have made it such that sin didn't separate us from him.
> > > Likewise he could have built a universe where we had some evidence of His >>>grace so that basically everyone would want to walk in his bitchen garden.
> >
> > But He did make a way so your objection is moot.
>
> He did make a way of what?
"...that sin didn't separate us from Him."
>
> What I know is that only a sick and twisted god would condem people to >eternal torment simply because they had never been exposed to the Bible.
You're right, only a sick and twisted god would do that. Unfortunately,
that's another of you're misconceptions.
The Bible is not the point. The Bible doesn't "save" anyone. People can
initially find God without the Bible. The Bible says that the creation of
the world reveals God to the world, making them without excuse. If someone
truly wants to know the truth about God, God WILL reveal Himself to that person.
>
> >
> > And you do have evidence of such affections: in every breath you breathe.
>
> Am I blind? I don't experience the evidence that you say is there. And if I
> am blind, is it reasonable to punish me for it?
If you don't see it - you don't see it. I'm not going to make judgements
about your alleged blindness or it's cause. It might be the misconceptions
you hold.
But, if a person is condemned it is because of disbelief alone.
>
> > The Bible says that every good gift comes from the Father of Lights. Every
> > good thing in your life is because of Him (Biblically speaking).
>
> Good meaning what? Stuff I like, or only holy stuff?
If God is holy, answer for yourself. Also depends on what you like.
>
> > > How could I accept a remedy that I can't see, hear, feel, or believe?
> >
> > I admit that you can't "see" it. But you can certainly hear, feel and
> > believe it. I did. (Obviously subjective, not persuasive.)
>
> You say that I can. Is this some tight little semantic point? Maybe I can,
> but I just don't? How do you explain why I have no recollection of having
> sensed any evidence of the supernatural ever?
I can't explain *your* life experiences. How could I? I'm trying to offer
Biblical answers to Biblical questions. I was merely stating that it is
possible to hear, feel and believe it. It's unique for each person.
>
> > You have not demonstrated that the rules are dumb. You have demonstrated
> > that you do not understand the rules (as given in the Bible.)
>
> So that's what I'm being punished for? Being too stupid to understand the
> rules..?
Are you currently being punished?
Again, I didn't say "stupid." You have offered many misconceptions which
lead me to believe that you didn't understand Christianity the way it is
believed by it's followers. I'm not asking you to believe because I do; or
even "as" I do. My purpose is to give reasoned answers from a Biblical
perspective. Oxymoron, right?
>
>
> I'm not sure what kind of answer that is. I'm saying that He didn't provide >an easy way out.
Then we agree to disagree.
>
> > > I see. So you don't see anything wrong with dropping your children into >>>vats of acid if they hate you?
> >
> > Not equivalent. It would be like my children on sinking ship - if I call out
> > to them and say, "The ship is sinking, come into my life raft." But they
> > reject my offer and say, "We don't need you, we'll be OK without you," and
> > then perish.
>
> I think it's more like putting your kids on a cruise ship and putting a bomb >in that will cause it to go down. So it's a foregone conclusion that the >boat is going to sink. And the combination to the lock that lets the life->rafts free is only scrawled on one bathroom wall with vague and contradictory
> instructions on how to use the boat machinery that makes basically no sense.
Only problem is - He didn't cause the ship to sink, we did. He offered to
rescue us in spite of ourselves. And most people who realize they need a
life-raft will do what it takes. I disagree with the vague and contradictory
part - a little effort will solve both - but that's the point (re: Jesus'
statement as to why He spoke in parables).
>
> So a few people will see it and think that they've figured it out and maybe
> spread the word. But since the instructions are nonsensical (whether or not
> they are correct) lots of people ignore them. Further, not everyone on the
> boat ever gets word, so they didn't even have the chance to learn of salvation.
If people ignore them it's their own fault. Not hearing is something
different. Addressed it above about creation revealing God, etc.
>
> > Why doesn't He.
>
> Becaue I reject it.
Well, there ya have it in a nutshell.
>
> > You wouldn't exist without Him.
>
> I don't own my son. I don't have the right to reclaim his life.
I said the same thing above about my kids.
>
> > it's His show, His Earth, His air, etc.
>
> And if we don't like his arbitrary rules, he'll pack up his toys and go home.
No, He offers them to someone who will accept them. His rules aren't
arbitrary, they're quite well reasoned and for our benefit. Who undestands
us better than our own Creator? He is bound by His holiness, if we could
find fault He ceases to be God.
>
> > On what premise? My two children are mine, but I wouldn't say I "own" them.
>
> If you have the right to destroy something, then you own it (or are acting as
> an agent of the owner).
He doesn't "destroy" anyone. They are still quite intact in Hell. It is
eternal separation from His goodness - which is what people choose when they
reject Him - so what's the gripe. Live it up here, do what you want, and
live in eternity without Him. If you don't like Him, why should you be
allowed to enjoy His beni's? Why do you assume someone should be able to
reject Him and then still get the goodies? On what basis? Just because?
Because *you* think so? If you don't care about what He thinks, why should
He care about what you think?
>
> > You reap what you sow.
>
> But what is it that I will reap?
Separation from God - which is what you want anyway, right?
>
> > The point was that when you repent you receive the good news. It's not
> > repent and avoid the bad news.
>
> OK, if you won't answer my questions about what the bad news is, will you tell
> me with the absense of good news is?
See above.
Bill
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