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(...) I've kind of always wondered: Is this mainly applicable for when bad things happen to good people? Or is He also there for someone who has done something really really bad? I mean, like, say someone makes a pact with the Devil. (I saw this in (...) (25 years ago, 19-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Todd Lehman <lehman@javanet.com> wrote in message news:37bb87d1.204022...net.com... (...) things (...) there (...) end (...) Isn't that Faust? Interestingly, every time that play resurfaced in a new era it had a different ending. There's the (...) (25 years ago, 19-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) What, no winkies? I hope you're kidding, because you sound like the Church Fathers in the first millenium discussing how many angels can fit on the head of a pin. A lot of nonsense. In my experience, there is no personified Devil, only the (...) (25 years ago, 19-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Yeah, what if Satan just suddenly gave up? Admitted he was a jerk and wrong, and honestly (how could you hide it from God?) asked for forgiveness? Or was his original crime, way back when, so bad that he's too far gone? Or is he the pefectly (...) (25 years ago, 19-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) A LOT of Christians don't believe Hell is just the absence of God (eternal lonliness maybe, or do you mean annihilation?) - they literally believe it is a real lake of fire into which all the bad people will be thrown, to burn and be tortured (...) (25 years ago, 19-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Mike Stanley wrote in message ... (...) it. (...) I agree about the "painting", Mike. At least Greek and Roman mythology were "believable". -- Have fun! John AUCTION Page (More soon!) (URL) Page (URL) wp,dm,rk,df++ fk-]++++(6035) SW,TR,old(456)+++ (...) (25 years ago, 19-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Well, I assume you're joking. If not, I'm not so sure Greek mythology was "believable" but it sure is more fun. Purely Roman mythology, the stuff that they didn't just rename/incorporate from the Greeks, can be interesting too. (25 years ago, 19-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Mike Stanley wrote:But COME ON, eternal damnation? I'm supposed to believe that an (...) Think of it this way, Mike. God isn't the one doing the damning. There are people who hate the light and love darkness. Even faced with God in His glory, *they (...) (25 years ago, 19-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Hmm. Good question. I think the answer is, "nothing in the Bible addresses this point". But to talk about it anyway: it's not enough to ask for forgiveness. It's a condition for salvation, but not main cause of salvation. The real reason (...) (25 years ago, 19-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) There should be enough people that I can stand on top of a bunch of them, and clear the surface. Steve (25 years ago, 19-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) So you're saying that you believe that people will literally burn for all eternity in Hell? That God, in his infinite wisdom, knowledge, love, and compassion, could actually allow that to happen? Why? What possible point could there be for (...) (25 years ago, 19-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Mike Stanley wrote: ???!! I never said anything about burning, literary or no. What I said was that there are people who would *choose* to not be with God (my definition of Heaven) because they *hate* the light and love the darkness. It is *their* (...) (25 years ago, 19-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) that there (...) because they (...) will. They (...) love of (...) their (...) But if it's they're decision, doesn't that imply they would have the power to reverse that decision? Christian theologies may differ on interpretation of hell, but (...) (25 years ago, 19-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Who *really* knows? I'm more interested in living life here and now on earth. We'll all find out the hard way soon enough as it is;-) (...) As I mentioned before, it is the view in a book by CS Lewis entitled The Great Divorce. It's a story (...) (25 years ago, 20-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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I don't believe in an afterlife. Dead is dead. IMO, people create their own "Heaven" and/or "Hell" while they are alive. Of course the best argument for this is simply: If there is afterbirth, there must be afterlife. :') (25 years ago, 20-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Steve Bliss <blisses@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:37bc18d7.153793...net.com... (...) I (...) Well, the convenant was with humanity, not the spirit realm, so I guess Satan would not be covered, since he is not/was not human. You bring up a (...) (25 years ago, 21-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) You might want to read To Reign in Hell, by Steven Brust, which paints a far more interesting picture. Brust is quoted on the jacket: "From all of my readings on the revolt of the angels, two things are clear: God is omnipotent, and Satan is (...) (25 years ago, 21-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) If you believe the axiom that "God knows everything" (and that I know is a muchly overused notion) and that he is all-wise, then it's not hard to stretch and say that God knows (and has apparently declared) that Satan is incorrigible. It seems (...) (25 years ago, 23-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Augh! Now you're talking about predestination. That's been a theological hot button for quite awhile. Does God already know who's going to be saved, and who isn't? And how is His knowing different from Him selecting? Is there actually free (...) (25 years ago, 24-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) stretch (...) I'm talking about knowing how something will react before it happens. For two examples, it's like saying you know Lego can stand temps up to 104 degrees F without ever having testing it if you had sufficient knowledge of the (...) (25 years ago, 24-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Tom McDonald writes: <snip> (...) Oops! I misspoke. Not two examples, just one. Doh! -Tom McD. when replying, your SpamcakeCard has been pre-approved! (25 years ago, 24-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) <SMARTARSE> The second example is: If a set number of angels can dance on the stud of a melting Lego brick at any determined temperature, would God know that number in advance? </SMARTARSE> I prefer to think of predestination to be something (...) (25 years ago, 24-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Questions: If this little Universe we're in is a simple enough dynamical system that all aspects of it can be pre-known by God, or if God can compute the answer faster than the machine (the Universe) itself can, then why did God create such a (...) (25 years ago, 25-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Say, if it took God six days to create the heavens and the earth and the sea and all that is in them, this would seem to indicate that God isn't infinitely fast...that good things take time. Maybe He could make the Universe blink *out* of (...) (25 years ago, 25-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) If I were to wax philosophical, like Mr. Lehman, days would seem like millennia, if I were to wax philosophical. ;-) Perhaps -- and this is purely guesswork -- time was conceived to allow good things to happen. It's pretty much stated in (...) (25 years ago, 25-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I (...) Hehe. If you so intimately knew your creation, say Lugnet for instance, wouldn't you know what it would do ahead of time given just about any situation? Maybe you could anticipate what it would do 95, 96, 97, or even 100% of the time. (...) (25 years ago, 25-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) You created Lugnet. Why not something more complex? (...) That does not mean that Data didn't have observable shortcomings. But Noonian Sung knew everything about Data. (...) "Anything" is a much misused word. :-) But in the case of humans, we (...) (25 years ago, 25-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) What about those ignorant of the process of salvation? Through what mechanism does a stone age native of Borneo avoid separation from God? --Chris (25 years ago, 27-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) was that there (...) because they (...) will. They (...) love of (...) honors their (...) Do you want a Sunday School answer, or one of my long-winded dissertations? :-) -Tom McD. when replying, "..and now here's your host, Wink Spamcake!" (25 years ago, 28-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) What are the other choices? <grins, ducks and runs> IIRC Catholicism holds that these souls will go to purgatory to be evaluated further. IOW, it's OK to be ignorant if you lived righteously, but if some missionary came to you and gave you the (...) (25 years ago, 28-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) How about both? I know it's an old question, but I don't recall ever getting a reasonable answer. --Chris (25 years ago, 28-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) (Tom then quickly submits Larry's email address to a subscription of an online papal newsletter, grins, ducks, and runs the other way ;-) (...) Off-hand, that sounds works-based. (...) Theoretically, if one was living righteously one wouldn't (...) (25 years ago, 28-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Larry Pieniazek <lar@voyager.net> wrote in message news:37C75232.865AD2...ger.net... (...) I find it interesting how you make your own judgements about what is righteous and what is groveling, and then condemn God for not living up to your own (...) (25 years ago, 31-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Tom McDonald <radiotitan@yanospamhoo.com> wrote in message news:FH7715.B0z@lugnet.com... (...) Well, I've talked to a lot of old school Catholics, and they're pretty bent on the works side of salvation. I think it's leftovers from the (...) (25 years ago, 31-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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I find it interesting that you can twist around what I say so remarkably, since it seems to be one of your hot buttons to accuse others of twisting YOUR words. Your god requires worship in a specific way. Why is that not groveling? My morality is (...) (25 years ago, 31-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) You misunderstand the purpose of worship. Worship is *not* required nor needed by God, but is the natural expression of thanks by His people for what God has done/is doing/will do. Worship should be joyful. What God requires of us is to love (...) (25 years ago, 31-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Ever wonder who the person was who was recording the creation event as it happened? Wasn't Adam or Eve either, because they weren't created until "day" 6. The creation account in Genesis _is a story_. An oral tradition passed down 100s of years (...) (25 years ago, 31-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Todd Lehman wrote: <snip> (...) Dr. Moriarity. What a fascinating episode that was:-) And even better that they brought him back on another show! (...) *This* is classic "circle logic" If God do anything, can God create a stone he cannot lift? (...) (25 years ago, 31-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Exactly: it's a proof by contradiction, proving that there's nothing that can do anything. I guess it challenges the definition of what "anything" means. (...) Also various line segments, various non-regular pentagons, various non- regular (...) (25 years ago, 31-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) (I don't mean that as a troll. I'm just a hopeless-romantic mathgeek.) --Todd (25 years ago, 31-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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arry Pieniazek <lar@voyager.net> wrote in message news:37CB60B3.98E448...ger.net... (...) What have a twisted? You decry my/our/Christians' concept of God because the God you see in the Bible doesn't live up to your definitions of justice, (...) (25 years ago, 31-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) judge, (...) Then explain why so many religions teach that they are the ONLY correct religion, that only THEY worship god correctly and that only THEY will go to heaven (Baptists, Catholics, Orthodox, etc.) (25 years ago, 31-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) The cube has a beginning and an end, doesn't it? The cube passing through the plane implies that, at some point, we witness every aspect of God. However, scripture indicates that very few people have even come close to this. It's probably more (...) (25 years ago, 31-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Ah, there are those who say that the story was passed down through Adam to Moses (or whoever took notes for Moses) from God. Presumably, God could have also set the record straight when he and Moses were conversing. Cheers, - jsproat (25 years ago, 31-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Well, actually no. There are certain alignments required if you want to see certain shapes... so one pass won't reveal every possible cross section. Stretching this analogy, it means that even an entire lifetime of contemplating the nature of (...) (25 years ago, 31-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Sproaticus wrote: <snip> (...) Yes, and that is my point. What does it matter? Why must we make it reconcile with what *we* believe? We try to make everything fit and reconcile perfectly. And folk like Larry can see right through that. Better to (...) (25 years ago, 31-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Ok (...) Hey, I thought logic was only meaning_ful_ without feeling. That whole Spock thing, y'know? -- logic with feeling ain't really logic. (...) Hmmm. Well, this is one place where I kind of get confused. See, I believe that God didn't (...) (25 years ago, 31-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Heh -- if you're going to quote Spock... "Logic is not the end of understanding. It's a beginning." - STVI:TUC One of the things I loved most about Spock's character, is that he tried to be logical to a fault -- a hero's fatal flaw, if you (...) (25 years ago, 31-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Right... and you've just stumbled into one of my favorite anti-god arguments (1)... infinite regress. a Universe with god doesn't explain any more, or less than a universe without one. Positing a god to explain why the universe exists doesn't (...) (25 years ago, 31-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Larry Pieniazek wrote: <snip> (...) I got news for you, Mr. Science. The more we learn about the universe, the more we see how random it is and how little we do/can know about it. It is a God who represents order out of chaos. (...) (25 years ago, 31-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) So no specific kind is required? False Idols are OK? Ikons are in, or out? Name in vain is OK? Which of the commandments do I have to keep? All 10? best of 7? Seems pretty specific to me there. OK, OK, part of the issue really is the many (...) (25 years ago, 31-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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<37CC301A.3CA0F7FF@voyager.net> <37CC3367.EB909A54@uswest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) False order explaining nothing and presenting no manifestation, predictable and useful and tangible (...) (25 years ago, 31-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) They're getting it wrong? Steve (25 years ago, 31-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Can I use that as a test of valid religion, then? If they say they are the one true faith, they aren't??? That would help winnow a LOT of them out. (25 years ago, 31-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) What I was talking about was Chaos Theory which, if I understood Dr. Malcolm in Jurassic Park correctly, is the *current* scientific rage. Einstein was about trying to uncover a unified theory of the universe. Post-Modern scientists are now (...) (25 years ago, 31-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Yah, well, we're basically having the same discussion as the whole Big Bang thing. Q: What happened before the Big Bang? A1: Nothing. Period. Matter didn't exist, energy didn't exist, nothing didn't exist. So there. A2: All matter and energy (...) (25 years ago, 31-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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<37CC354E.62450140@voyager.net> <37CC3D3D.F286D038@uswest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) So we're getting our information from movies, eh John? Well, *here's* a news flash for you... Movies (...) (25 years ago, 31-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) <CONJECTURE DISCLAIMER="(URL) Here's an analogy which may work: consider the rules pertaining our daily interactions with people. Be it in the store, in a bored meeting, at a basketball game, etc. we're all governed by rules. One should follow (...) (25 years ago, 31-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Do you have any justification for believing that. Is logic something that exists in its own right or is it just something that we've created and which looks sensible because it happens to fit in with how our minds work? I'm sure I've seen one (...) (25 years ago, 1-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Ed Jones <edboxer@aol.com> wrote in message news:FHByEv.FoH@lugnet.com... (...) to (...) If you're speaking of different religions, such as Christianity vs. Islam, it's because of differences in opinion in what counts as Holy text. If you're (...) (25 years ago, 1-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Larry Pieniazek <lar@voyager.net> wrote in message news:37CC346F.721177...ger.net... (...) Okay, that is "specific." Usually "specific" is referred to as meaning "stand up sit down say this get up sit down say that pray sing pray talk pray leave (...) (25 years ago, 1-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Larry Pieniazek <lar@voyager.net> wrote in message news:37CC3897.1147B7...ger.net... (...) People can disagree on the details and still be one true faith, unless you define one true faith as 100% the same across the board, which doesn't happen (...) (25 years ago, 1-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Much better, thank you. To a certain extent I already knew this but it needed articulating for everyone else. I'm gonna snip away most of what you and I said, but I still have to focus on this part... (...) You bet it is. LOL. THIS is why I say your (...) (25 years ago, 1-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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<37CC301A.3CA0F7FF@voyager.net> <37CC3EA0.A8F9596E@io.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) I can see how it might appear this way to a religious person not very well acquainted with science, but I (...) (25 years ago, 1-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes: Simon (URL) I just don't want to share heaven with murderers and torturers, no (...) OK - I may dislike a lot of what Christians say but I'm with Jesse on this one. The mistake I think you're (...) (25 years ago, 1-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Quantifiable, depending upon your motives. If you're searching for the chemical reasons behind nitrogen bonding, scripture won't help you a whole bunch. (...) Yes, but you still have to take quite a lot on faith. Barring *personal* (...) (25 years ago, 1-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Jesse Long writes: [snip] (...) WHile in college, I took a philosophy of religion class. The first week of the course was religious history. The remaining 9 weeks of the course consisted of nothing more than a (...) (25 years ago, 1-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I thought that excess gamma rays ripped your _clothes_ apart, not your flesh. That's what happened to Bruce Banner, anyway. :-) --Todd (25 years ago, 1-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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<37CD2A57.50CEFE70@eclipse.net> <37CD66C3.8C44BCAF@io.com> <37cd75df.275331198@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) LOL And they ripped apart Peter Parker's social life too! Cheers, - jsproat (25 years ago, 1-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) The first one: logic exists in its own right. It's not something we created or invented, but rather something we discovered. Pure logic (as in, say, DeMorgan's Theorem, for instance) existed long before humans ever used it, and it works (...) (25 years ago, 1-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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<37CD2A57.50CEFE70@eclipse.net> <37CD66C3.8C44BCAF@io.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) When I reread this, it sounded like I meant to be suggesting that you don't know jack about science, and (...) (25 years ago, 2-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Yah, well, that depends on who you talk to. (...) But you can't discount it. Conspiracies do happen. But I don't think it would help my case if I were to argue this one! :-, (...) This is a mistake. You have no real reason to trust my word (...) (25 years ago, 2-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Wow , same style of thinking..:-) Just check out my comments on the first religion debate: (URL) Hey friends, do you ever think about this?..All of the religions has their own types of ceremonies (I can't find a better word) and beliefs, which are (...) (25 years ago, 2-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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<37CDCE45.78EA965D@eclipse.net> <slrn7srq48.kau.jspr...is.io.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) OK, I like to believe that I'm always open to being corrected. Help me to test God's existence and (...) (25 years ago, 2-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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<37CDCE45.78EA965D@eclipse.net> <slrn7srq48.kau.jspr...is.io.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) I trust the scientific method because I personally have conducted experiments, made predictions, and (...) (25 years ago, 2-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I saw this, and got intreuged... Maybe this has been covered in another thread of this debate (LMK if so), but I have a question... What defines a religion? Is it having faith in an ultimate source? If this kind of faith defines a religion, I (...) (25 years ago, 2-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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<37CE848C.90906C8C@voyager.net> <FHFsB1.J0L@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David: One could say that the essence of a religion is to take something on faith (else it is a philosophy or moral (...) (25 years ago, 2-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Ok, so it sounds like your definition of religion is something along the lines of: "a set of beliefs which are taken as true by faith, where these beliefs are not submitted as needing any sort of verification" Does that sound ok? (...) Well, (...) (25 years ago, 2-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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<37CE909B.EB040221@voyager.net> <FHFyw9.5nI@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Not to be argumentative, but... :-) (...) This may be semantics, but I just don't see it as "faith". We are reasoning (...) (25 years ago, 2-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) :) (...) I tend to agree. Mostly semantics. However, I'm used to calling it "faith" just to cover myself from getting into the whole "what is real?" argument. As I said, some existentialist can come along and say: "You just THINK you've got a (...) (25 years ago, 2-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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<37CEC4AB.11CB1C2F@voyager.net> <FHGBvC.2AF@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David Eaton wrote: <faith explanation> Ah, OK. (...) OK again. I'd turn it around. A religion may or may not have a (...) (25 years ago, 2-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Nah, the spider couldn't have been hit by gamma rays, or Peter Parker would have turned green! Steve (25 years ago, 3-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(This wording took me a day to figure out. If I'm going to have Larry spend his time countering what I say, I'd better say something good. ;-) (...) Oops. :-P I concede your point. Cold fusion was a bad example of the failing of the scientific (...) (25 years ago, 3-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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<37CE848C.90906C8C@voyager.net> <37D027DB.AB97ECF8@io.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) It sounds pretty clearly like you are an adherent to at least two religions (given your definition). Out of (...) (25 years ago, 4-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) How many gods do I keep in front of me, you mean? One. Well, okay, there are my vices... :-P I keep one world-making god and several world-destroying wanna-bes in front of me. I'm trying to keep the devastation to a minimum. I'm a member of (...) (25 years ago, 4-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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<37CE848C.90906C8C@voyager.net> <37D027DB.AB97ECF8@io.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) Flattery will get you anything, big fella. :-) (...) As I said it's not required that I personally verify (...) (25 years ago, 4-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) spend (...) Hold that thought... (...) I'm probably getting in over my head here, as I am not as well-read on this subject as I probably should be, but are the Founding Fathers within your web of trust? Several of them are reputed to be very (...) (25 years ago, 5-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) What's any more nutty about the BOM than about (the rest(?)) of the Bible? Tales are told of magic happenings that a careful analysis of history doesn't support in both, right? (...) I said much the same thing a while back about the LDS, but (...) (25 years ago, 5-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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<37D1426A.8407B33E@voyager.net> <37D2A877.51DDB8B5@eclipse.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) Well, in the BOM there is a claim that gold plates were handed down. So put them on display and let (...) (25 years ago, 5-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I cannot personally prove the golden plates to you, for I do not posess them. Nor would I casually exhibit them if I did. Responsibility for these plates were transferred from Moroni to Joseph Smith by the Lord for a specific reason. The end (...) (25 years ago, 5-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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<37D2CBB6.6257BB22@voyager.net> <FHLt83.Avr@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) That, right there, is one of the reasons I like the LDS better than some. Many sects, or at least their (...) (25 years ago, 5-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) You and me both. Digress away. :-, But your typical Mormon-legislated morality comes from overzealous members, not from the church itself. And the majority of the moralizing happens not in Salt Lake Valley, but in Utah Valley, home of BYU. Now (...) (25 years ago, 5-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes: I've had to largely pull out of this debate for a couple of weeks owing to quite a bit of urgent work from my publishers suddenly turning up - so I've currently got very little time to post. But (...) (25 years ago, 6-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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<37D2DA5A.3FAA4509@voyager.net> <FHMnG6.30B@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) I know this is Larry's argument, but why would you resent that? If Larry is risking his money and reputation, (...) (25 years ago, 6-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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<37D2CBB6.6257BB22@voyager.net> <FHLt83.Avr@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) According to _The Refiner's Fire_ Mormonism only exists because Joseph Smith, in New York state, was trying to (...) (25 years ago, 6-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Christ, (...) investigate (...) Hrmmm... Yes. Yes, in a very rough nutshell. I believe that the revelation stuff happened, personally. I have no idea what _The Refiner's Fire_ is (though I assume it's a book). This event is described rather (...) (25 years ago, 6-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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<37D2DA5A.3FAA4509@voyager.net> <FHMnG6.30B@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) I think Chris did a pretty good job of explaining why I do in fact consider everything when making decisions (...) (25 years ago, 6-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Christopher Weeks <clweeks@eclipse.net> wrote (...) Aha, but privately thinking something is different from publically stating it. Doing so crosses a threshold of accountability, and brings responsibility. On the one hand the statement does imply (...) (25 years ago, 7-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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<37D3BBC5.77DE038A@eclipse.net> <FHow2F.3yM@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm skipping most of this for a more detailed comment later, perhaps... (...) but THIS is so outrageous that I have (...) (25 years ago, 7-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Whats wrong with you? You seem to understand that the church does steal from those who belong to it (by choice, even), and you object about that. But you don't understand that governments do the exact same thing (some times in conjunction with one (...) (25 years ago, 7-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Sproaticus -> (...) Larry -> (...) Jsproat -> (...) I'll try a crack at defending Larry's point-- or at least making one of my own... I think the idea is that science is methodically verifiable. By employing methods of science, I can come to the (...) (25 years ago, 7-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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<37D3BBC5.77DE038A@eclipse.net> <FHow2F.3yM@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) I didn't find that. but I did find THIS: Back on 12/10/98 I said: (...) While we were talking about stealing, (...) (25 years ago, 7-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) That's just because it's too hard to form an intolerance committee for every single little issue that comes up. Methodists reserve committee-forming behavior for more important activities. Steve (25 years ago, 7-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Well, I think the *idea* might come from the thought that, if I'm going to believe something, it had better be right! So it's more "we have the answers as revealed to us" and less "we are right, and you are wrong" Because to tell you the (...) (25 years ago, 8-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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<37D3BBC5.77DE038A@eclipse.net> <FHow2F.3yM@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Moz (Chris Moseley)" wrote: Do I dare dignify such a troll with a (...) (25 years ago, 8-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) How can you call a gift stealing? (...) They are different. Churches collect money *voluntarily* to assist those in need. The gov collects money whether you like it or not. If I don't contribute to the offering plate, so what? If I don't (...) (25 years ago, 8-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes: Larry, (...) (I rearranged your posting to stick this first as I thought that was important) I'd like to emphasize that on that score the feeling is mutual. You've provided a very valuable service. (...) (25 years ago, 8-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) But Larry appears to be making what to me look like some rather strange connections. Leaving aside the question of the morals of taxation - which I'll comment on below, we have: 1. I have consistently argued that it is right for Governments to (...) (25 years ago, 8-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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<37D3BBC5.77DE038A@eclipse.net> <FHpz9y.Mq4@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) big snippage here but: 1. How about the death tax (taxation (...) (25 years ago, 8-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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All right John, Here is Moz' original post that I was referring to: (...) John Neal wrote in message <37D5C0DC.FDA80880@u...st.net>... (...) steal (...) Based on what he said, which relates to the traditional role of the church (which may have (...) (25 years ago, 8-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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John Neal wrote in message: (...) stupidity? well, its good debate material, whether a troll or not. (...) prohibition (...) Chris, the (...) your (...) That may or may not be the core of Christian belief - depends who you ask, but every church puts (...) (25 years ago, 8-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Larry Pieniazek <lar@voyager.net> wrote (...) Your comment that you have the right to speed because you can afford to compensate my family should you kill me. You became silent when I asked whether I could refuse to sell the item in question. I (...) (25 years ago, 8-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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John DiRienzo <ig88888888@stlnet.com> wrote (...) There is no difference *in princliple*, provided that membership is voluntary. This situation has only recently arisen for both countries and churches. However, the difference is that taxation can (...) (25 years ago, 8-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Larry Pieniazek <lar@voyager.net> wrote (...) Unfortunately neither can I. I retract the statement. Moz (25 years ago, 8-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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John Neal <johnneal@uswest.net> wrote (...) Within the terms of that debate, yes, I believe in the truth of my statements. My understanding is that from Larrys perspective anything at all the requires he give anything to anyone is theft. If a gift (...) (25 years ago, 8-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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<37D509B5.92E4ADBC@voyager.net> <FHqI70.MIy@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) Ah. OK. Well, that's putting the pieces together rather differently than I intended, but I see where you're (...) (25 years ago, 8-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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<37D5BF19.20DE42FA@uswest.net> <FHqnK9.4Dt@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) More or less. If I live in a society where I must be a member of a church, or where I am discriminated against (...) (25 years ago, 8-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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<37D44B67.BC996AD6@voyager.net> <FHpz7x.MKI@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) Good, I am glad that you feel that way, it's a stance I've sort of started to take without getting a lot of (...) (25 years ago, 8-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Moz (Chris Moseley) wrote in message ... (...) voluntary. (...) However, (...) rendered in (...) to (...) of (...) necessary (...) I (...) I agree with you, that whether you are giving money voluntarily to a church or involuntarily to a government, (...) (25 years ago, 8-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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<37D3BBC5.77DE038A@eclipse.net> <FHpz9y.Mq4@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Simon, thanks for taking the time for this. (...) I have heard (but not verified) that US tax code is so large and (...) (25 years ago, 9-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Who's supposed to be fielding this one? Absolutely. (Unless you take the squishy we're all part of society and you owe your existence to the government philosophy - then you're just being compensated differently.) --Chris (25 years ago, 9-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Larry Pieniazek <lar@voyager.net> wrote (...) Sounds good to me. Thank you for the retraction and thought you've put into the topic. (...) Actually I seem to recall reading this recently, that there are counties(?) that raise most of their budget (...) (25 years ago, 9-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Larry Pieniazek <lar@voyager.net> wrote (...) It depends on what the union provides. Professional associations are one type of union where compulsory membership can be justified. And I tend to favour unions where there are substantial economies to (...) (25 years ago, 9-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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John DiRienzo <ig88888888@stlnet.com> wrote (...) I suspect you did not mean what you wrote. You said "what country has not banned genocide". Australia. I suspect you meant the opposite, in which case New Zealand is the answer. NZ was formed by (...) (25 years ago, 9-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Christopher Weeks <clweeks@eclipse.net> wrote (...) Yes. And that's a very good argument for throwing it away. Tax does not *have* to be complex. Did you know that the NZ tax code for private income earners (your personal tax return) is down to (...) (25 years ago, 9-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Moz (Chris Moseley) wrote in message ... (...) Thats about what I wrote, at one time or another, every country is guilty of the same thing (allowing genocide). I don't know if Australia is still allowing it or not, but I am sure there are more than (...) (25 years ago, 9-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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<FHrGyG.6pn@lugnet.com> <FHsKoE.DwJ@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) So what is the relationship between the Maori and the English there now? Are they all interbred and one big happy (...) (25 years ago, 9-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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<37D64CA8.96CF1964@voyager.net> <FHsKo5.Dq8@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) I think I want to drill into this one a bit more. Let's be clear... are you saying that to break any law (...) (25 years ago, 9-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I thought I'd made it clear that I do not believe in theft. I think all of us here respect property rights. Where we disagree is that the money that you claim you should not be paying in tax is money that I believe was never rightfully yours (...) (25 years ago, 10-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
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(...) On this subject, I wonder if we're both making the mistake of trying to rationalise people's motives too much. There are a few of us here - people like you, me John DiR, Christopher Weeks, and others, who have come to different conclusions, (...) (25 years ago, 10-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
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<37D44B67.BC996AD6@voyager.net> <FHtIB8.M2G@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) I'm replying to you in this thread so it may seem like I'm picking on you. I don't intend that it seem that way (...) (25 years ago, 10-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
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(...) I know very little about the tax code itself, but one of my best friends is an accountant and she is the first to admit she doesn't know everything, or even a little bit, about some kinds of taxation. That's why they have several accountants (...) (25 years ago, 10-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
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Larry Pieniazek <lar@voyager.net> wrote (...) No, because it was in a context where we were talking about the behavior of governments. I say again, it is necessary to distinguish between behaviours that are appropriate for the community as a whole, (...) (25 years ago, 10-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
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John DiRienzo <ig88888888@stlnet.com> wrote (...) The people who arrived in NZ before the white ones. Between about 500AD and about 1500AD there were several waves of Polynesian immigrants, followed by the "discovery" of NZ by Abel Tasman, and the (...) (25 years ago, 10-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: New Zealand (was: Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)))
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Christopher Weeks <clweeks@eclipse.net> wrote (...) More or less amicable, I think. Put it this way, our "race issues" are more about why relatively few Maori get elected to parliament or go to college than why so many get killed by racist thugs. (...) (25 years ago, 10-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
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(...) My fiancee's father is an H&R Block person, and he is on his way to being a CPA as well. I read some of the material he was working on for his studies, and it was Greek to me. It is so horrendous that most people now just have it done for (...) (25 years ago, 10-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
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<37D857A5.EE5161B3@voyager.net> <FHu9rK.AFL@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) ?!?!?!? I like out of context snips. --Chris (25 years ago, 10-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
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(...) What's wrong with a church which you CHOSE to belong to setting requirements on that belonging? As far as I am aware, there is nothing in the U.S. (and most European countries) REQUIRING you to belong to a church. WHy shouldn't the church (...) (25 years ago, 10-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Speeding: Prima facie negligence?
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Larry Pieniazek <lar@voyager.net> wrote (...) You've switched immediately from laws which are codified conventions to laws which attempt to enforce possibly immoral behaviour. What happens to a society where only half the members behave as you (...) (25 years ago, 10-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
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(...) prohibition Read what Moz wrote. Repeat it again. Theft is at the core of Christian beliefs. The Church (and almost any religion) was *founded* for the purpose of stealing money from the multitudes for the purpose of making the people who run (...) (25 years ago, 11-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
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(...) Please, this is utter nonsense. In your minds you may think that is the reason; maybe it makes you feel more comfortable about not being apart of a Church I don't know, but your perception has little to do with reality. At the very least (...) (25 years ago, 11-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
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John Neal wrote in message <37DA72D1.544B539@us...st.net>... (...) the (...) I was speaking for myself on this - I don't know how it stands in other people's minds. It could be that Moz is upset with me for quoting him so much, but he deserves it - (...) (25 years ago, 11-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
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(...) I don't usually like 'me too's, but I was going to say something much like this. Governments claim to be good, and for organization and economy of scale, and they throw bones to the masses just enough to stay in power - for a time. But the (...) (25 years ago, 13-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
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<FHwnDv.rC@lugnet.com> <37DC7251.4794C59D@eclipse.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) And *who* might those people be? Because the reality is that (...) (25 years ago, 13-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
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(...) To some extent elected officials, but mostly businesses which have a strong lobby. (...) Right, but they don't do too bad either. (...) Well, I'm glad that I entertain you. They who? Governmental employees? Supporters of the government? Which (...) (25 years ago, 13-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
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(...) You paint religion with an awfully wide brush. My religion doesn't condemn anyone to hell. Of course many people do not consider my religion to be a religion since it doesn't even require one to believe in a god. (25 years ago, 13-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Speeding: Prima facie negligence?
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<37D8033D.108EF440@voyager.net> <FHvs28.ELu@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) Sure. I did switch because I wanted to make a point. I think we all agree that some set of conventions is (...) (25 years ago, 13-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
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<FHw7y5.7KF@lugnet.com> <37DD1DDE.4083@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) How convenient;-) (a la Dana Carvey as the Church Lady) -John (...) (25 years ago, 13-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | Re: Speeding: Prima facie negligence?
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Larry Pieniazek <lar@voyager.net> wrote (...) One measure of a democracy is whether you can vote for the revolution, I suppose. While I don't want the outcome you want, I'm inclined to agree that you deserve points for trying. But not many, since I (...) (25 years ago, 14-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
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(...) AAAAAGHH!!! This was *SUPPOSED* to say: "...I see no reason to not include the teaching of science in religion." Netscape's bogo-checker let that one through. ...Lest folks think of me as (more of) a jibbering lunatic... :-, Cheers, - jsproat (25 years ago, 14-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Complex number theory (Was: God and the Devil and forgiveness)
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(...) I finally figured out what it was about this statement that bothered me! Math (a valid part of logic, arguably) has real difficulty resolving even low-order functions on 4-dimensional complex numbers (1). There are at least two main camps of (...) (25 years ago, 14-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
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(...) Can god create a two-sided triangle? Arguing about definitionally impossible things is useless, IMHO. My take: Should an _omnipotent_ god (there is always the possibility of non-omnipotence, after all) exist, he would be able to make a stone (...) (25 years ago, 11-Nov-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
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(...) In a truly chaotic system, where each quantum interaction produces measurable macro effects, no _useful_ predictions can be made. Unless you consider "Ther is on billionth of a percent chance that after a microsecond the state will be this, (...) (25 years ago, 11-Nov-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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