Subject:
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Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Fri, 10 Sep 1999 14:53:59 GMT
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Viewed:
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1412 times
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John DiRienzo wrote:
>
> All right John,
> Here is Moz' original post that I was referring to:
> > No. Theft is at the core of Christian beliefs. For starters the prohibition
> > of ursury (that is, allowing market forces to set interest rates), the
> > various requirements to be your brothers keeper (the church sanctions the
> > theft of your property to support your brother). And don't start me on
> > tithing, especially as traditionally done by the church when it is very
> > much extortion. That's just some easy ones off the top of my head.
>
> John Neal wrote in message <37D5C0DC.FDA80880@uswest.net>...
> > John DiRienzo wrote:
> > > Whats wrong with you? You seem to understand that the church does • steal
> > > from those who belong to it (by choice, even), and you object about that.
> >
> > How can you call a gift stealing?
>
> Based on what he said, which relates to the traditional role of the
> church (which may have changed a lot in the last 100-500 years) basically
> all of the things he mentioned were *requirements* for members. They were
> rules, and if you broke them, you get kicked out - (in some situations, that
> also meant getting kicked out of the country you lived in, or thrown in
> prison). Today, in the US at least, you have choice, but are still expected
> to *fund* the church you belong to.
What's wrong with a church which you CHOSE to belong to setting
requirements on that belonging? As far as I am aware, there is nothing
in the U.S. (and most European countries) REQUIRING you to belong to a
church. WHy shouldn't the church collect momey to support itself, in
fact, you are "stealing" if you wish to avail yourself of the churches
services without contributing to that church (of course if the church
feels you are "deserving" of charity, then they may chose to extend
those services to you without cost, or for a reduced cose).
Now the church of old is a different story.
> > > But you don't understand that governments do the exact same thing (some
> > > times in conjunction with one church or another) and have no objection to
> > > that whatsoever? In fact you support that theft, but get upset about it
> > > when a church does it. Any church or government uses the same ethic • (give
> > > us your money which we can use to help those who (supposedly) need it • better
> > > than you can) to steal your money. Why do you object to one and not the
> > > other?
> >
> > They are different. Churches collect money *voluntarily* to assist those • in
> > need. The gov collects money whether you like it or not. If I don't
> > contribute to the offering plate, so what? If I don't contribute to the • IRS,
> > they (gov) use force to take it from me. So how are these two scenarios • "the
> > exact same thing"?
>
> Your right, church and government are not the exact same thing - but the
> things he disliked about the church, he likes in a government - the same
> things, principles, expectations, etc. I still don't know why he feels that
> way. Just because the church has lost a lot of its power to the various
> governments of the world doesn't change the fact that it acts in the same
> way as those governments. It can also be mentioned that if you are not a
> good upstanding member of whatever church you belong to you will burn in
> hell forever, which is another method of taking property by force.
Only if you grant "the church"/"god" the power condemn you to hell. If
you don't grant this power, then you needn't let the church "steal" from
you. If you do grant this power, then it seems to me that you accept the
premise of that church, and should then accept the requirement to
contribute.
--
Frank Filz
-----------------------------
Work: mailto:ffilz@us.ibm.com
Home: mailto:ffilz@mindspring.com
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