Debate : 1971


Off-Topic / Debate / 1971	1970 \| 1972

Subject:	Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
Newsgroups:	lugnet.off-topic.debate
Date:	Tue, 31 Aug 1999 18:20:53 GMT
Viewed:	1565 times

In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Sproaticus <jsproat@io.com> writes: > [...] > But you forget passion. He is a God of mercy as much as He is a God of > justice. Ok > Like any set of opposites, logic is absolutely meaningless without > feeling. Hey, I thought logic was only meaning_ful_ without feeling. That whole Spock thing, y'know? -- logic with feeling ain't really logic. > And, like any set of rules governing the world, God created them. Hmmm. Well, this is one place where I kind of get confused. See, I believe that God didn't create logic or mathematics -- that he in fact *couldn't* create them -- because they already existed on their own without the world, without the universe, and without God. Naturally, of course, if God didn't exist and hadn't created us, we'd never be here in the first place to discover mathematics[1], but it would still exist, wouldn't it? --Todd [1] By "mathematics," I mean pure mathematics (not physics) -- logic, geometry, algebra, calculus, topology, number theory, set theory, etc., and an infinite variety of other as-yet-undiscovered areas.

Message has 43 Replies:

		Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
(...) Heh -- if you're going to quote Spock... "Logic is not the end of understanding. It's a beginning." - STVI:TUC One of the things I loved most about Spock's character, is that he tried to be logical to a fault -- a hero's fatal flaw, if you (...) (25 years ago, 31-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
(...) Right... and you've just stumbled into one of my favorite anti-god arguments (1)... infinite regress. a Universe with god doesn't explain any more, or less than a universe without one. Positing a god to explain why the universe exists doesn't (...) (25 years ago, 31-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
<37CC301A.3CA0F7FF@voyager.net> <37CC3367.EB909A54@uswest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) False order explaining nothing and presenting no manifestation, predictable and useful and tangible (...) (25 years ago, 31-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
<37CC354E.62450140@voyager.net> <37CC3D3D.F286D038@uswest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) So we're getting our information from movies, eh John? Well, here's a news flash for you... Movies (...) (25 years ago, 31-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
(...) <CONJECTURE DISCLAIMER="(URL) Here's an analogy which may work: consider the rules pertaining our daily interactions with people. Be it in the store, in a bored meeting, at a basketball game, etc. we're all governed by rules. One should follow (...) (25 years ago, 31-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
(...) Do you have any justification for believing that. Is logic something that exists in its own right or is it just something that we've created and which looks sensible because it happens to fit in with how our minds work? I'm sure I've seen one (...) (25 years ago, 1-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
<37CC301A.3CA0F7FF@voyager.net> <37CC3EA0.A8F9596E@io.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) I can see how it might appear this way to a religious person not very well acquainted with science, but I (...) (25 years ago, 1-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
<37CD2A57.50CEFE70@eclipse.net> <37CD66C3.8C44BCAF@io.com> <37cd75df.275331198@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) LOL And they ripped apart Peter Parker's social life too! Cheers, - jsproat (25 years ago, 1-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
(...) The first one: logic exists in its own right. It's not something we created or invented, but rather something we discovered. Pure logic (as in, say, DeMorgan's Theorem, for instance) existed long before humans ever used it, and it works (...) (25 years ago, 1-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
<37CD2A57.50CEFE70@eclipse.net> <37CD66C3.8C44BCAF@io.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) When I reread this, it sounded like I meant to be suggesting that you don't know jack about science, and (...) (25 years ago, 2-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
<37CDCE45.78EA965D@eclipse.net> <slrn7srq48.kau.jspr...is.io.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) OK, I like to believe that I'm always open to being corrected. Help me to test God's existence and (...) (25 years ago, 2-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
<37CDCE45.78EA965D@eclipse.net> <slrn7srq48.kau.jspr...is.io.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) I trust the scientific method because I personally have conducted experiments, made predictions, and (...) (25 years ago, 2-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
<37CE848C.90906C8C@voyager.net> <FHFsB1.J0L@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David: One could say that the essence of a religion is to take something on faith (else it is a philosophy or moral (...) (25 years ago, 2-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
<37CE909B.EB040221@voyager.net> <FHFyw9.5nI@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Not to be argumentative, but... :-) (...) This may be semantics, but I just don't see it as "faith". We are reasoning (...) (25 years ago, 2-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
<37CEC4AB.11CB1C2F@voyager.net> <FHGBvC.2AF@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David Eaton wrote: <faith explanation> Ah, OK. (...) OK again. I'd turn it around. A religion may or may not have a (...) (25 years ago, 2-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
<37CE848C.90906C8C@voyager.net> <37D027DB.AB97ECF8@io.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) It sounds pretty clearly like you are an adherent to at least two religions (given your definition). Out of (...) (25 years ago, 4-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
<37CE848C.90906C8C@voyager.net> <37D027DB.AB97ECF8@io.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) Flattery will get you anything, big fella. :-) (...) As I said it's not required that I personally verify (...) (25 years ago, 4-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
<37D1426A.8407B33E@voyager.net> <37D2A877.51DDB8B5@eclipse.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) Well, in the BOM there is a claim that gold plates were handed down. So put them on display and let (...) (25 years ago, 5-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
<37D2CBB6.6257BB22@voyager.net> <FHLt83.Avr@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) That, right there, is one of the reasons I like the LDS better than some. Many sects, or at least their (...) (25 years ago, 5-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
<37D2DA5A.3FAA4509@voyager.net> <FHMnG6.30B@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) I know this is Larry's argument, but why would you resent that? If Larry is risking his money and reputation, (...) (25 years ago, 6-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
<37D2CBB6.6257BB22@voyager.net> <FHLt83.Avr@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) According to _The Refiner's Fire_ Mormonism only exists because Joseph Smith, in New York state, was trying to (...) (25 years ago, 6-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
<37D2DA5A.3FAA4509@voyager.net> <FHMnG6.30B@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) I think Chris did a pretty good job of explaining why I do in fact consider everything when making decisions (...) (25 years ago, 6-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
<37D3BBC5.77DE038A@eclipse.net> <FHow2F.3yM@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm skipping most of this for a more detailed comment later, perhaps... (...) but THIS is so outrageous that I have (...) (25 years ago, 7-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
Whats wrong with you? You seem to understand that the church does steal from those who belong to it (by choice, even), and you object about that. But you don't understand that governments do the exact same thing (some times in conjunction with one (...) (25 years ago, 7-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
<37D3BBC5.77DE038A@eclipse.net> <FHow2F.3yM@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) I didn't find that. but I did find THIS: Back on 12/10/98 I said: (...) While we were talking about stealing, (...) (25 years ago, 7-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
<37D3BBC5.77DE038A@eclipse.net> <FHow2F.3yM@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Moz (Chris Moseley)" wrote: Do I dare dignify such a troll with a (...) (25 years ago, 8-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
<37D3BBC5.77DE038A@eclipse.net> <FHpz9y.Mq4@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) big snippage here but: 1. How about the death tax (taxation (...) (25 years ago, 8-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
All right John, Here is Moz' original post that I was referring to: (...) John Neal wrote in message <37D5C0DC.FDA80880@u...st.net>... (...) steal (...) Based on what he said, which relates to the traditional role of the church (which may have (...) (25 years ago, 8-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
<37D509B5.92E4ADBC@voyager.net> <FHqI70.MIy@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) Ah. OK. Well, that's putting the pieces together rather differently than I intended, but I see where you're (...) (25 years ago, 8-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
<37D5BF19.20DE42FA@uswest.net> <FHqnK9.4Dt@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) More or less. If I live in a society where I must be a member of a church, or where I am discriminated against (...) (25 years ago, 8-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
<37D44B67.BC996AD6@voyager.net> <FHpz7x.MKI@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) Good, I am glad that you feel that way, it's a stance I've sort of started to take without getting a lot of (...) (25 years ago, 8-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
Moz (Chris Moseley) wrote in message ... (...) voluntary. (...) However, (...) rendered in (...) to (...) of (...) necessary (...) I (...) I agree with you, that whether you are giving money voluntarily to a church or involuntarily to a government, (...) (25 years ago, 8-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
<37D3BBC5.77DE038A@eclipse.net> <FHpz9y.Mq4@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Simon, thanks for taking the time for this. (...) I have heard (but not verified) that US tax code is so large and (...) (25 years ago, 9-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
Moz (Chris Moseley) wrote in message ... (...) Thats about what I wrote, at one time or another, every country is guilty of the same thing (allowing genocide). I don't know if Australia is still allowing it or not, but I am sure there are more than (...) (25 years ago, 9-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		New Zealand (was: Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)))
<FHrGyG.6pn@lugnet.com> <FHsKoE.DwJ@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) So what is the relationship between the Maori and the English there now? Are they all interbred and one big happy (...) (25 years ago, 9-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Speeding: Prima facie negligence? (was Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
<37D64CA8.96CF1964@voyager.net> <FHsKo5.Dq8@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) I think I want to drill into this one a bit more. Let's be clear... are you saying that to break any law (...) (25 years ago, 9-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
<37D44B67.BC996AD6@voyager.net> <FHtIB8.M2G@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) I'm replying to you in this thread so it may seem like I'm picking on you. I don't intend that it seem that way (...) (25 years ago, 10-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
<37D857A5.EE5161B3@voyager.net> <FHu9rK.AFL@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) ?!?!?!? I like out of context snips. --Chris (25 years ago, 10-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
(...) prohibition Read what Moz wrote. Repeat it again. Theft is at the core of Christian beliefs. The Church (and almost any religion) was founded for the purpose of stealing money from the multitudes for the purpose of making the people who run (...) (25 years ago, 11-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
John Neal wrote in message <37DA72D1.544B539@us...st.net>... (...) the (...) I was speaking for myself on this - I don't know how it stands in other people's minds. It could be that Moz is upset with me for quoting him so much, but he deserves it - (...) (25 years ago, 11-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
<FHwnDv.rC@lugnet.com> <37DC7251.4794C59D@eclipse.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) And who might those people be? Because the reality is that (...) (25 years ago, 13-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: Speeding: Prima facie negligence?
<37D8033D.108EF440@voyager.net> <FHvs28.ELu@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) Sure. I did switch because I wanted to make a point. I think we all agree that some set of conventions is (...) (25 years ago, 13-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
<FHw7y5.7KF@lugnet.com> <37DD1DDE.4083@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) How convenient;-) (a la Dana Carvey as the Church Lady) -John (...) (25 years ago, 13-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)

Message is in Reply To:

		Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
(...) The cube has a beginning and an end, doesn't it? The cube passing through the plane implies that, at some point, we witness every aspect of God. However, scripture indicates that very few people have even come close to this. It's probably more (...) (25 years ago, 31-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

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