Subject:
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Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Sun, 5 Sep 1999 21:02:18 GMT
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Reply-To:
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lpieniazek@novera.!nomorespam!com
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1638 times
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<37D2CBB6.6257BB22@voyager.net> <FHLt83.Avr@lugnet.com>
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Sproaticus wrote:
> Consider that these books are not offered as proof of the
> Lord Jesus Christ, but rather as a testimony of Him. It
> is left up to the reader to investigate and to pray so
> that he or she may find answers through inspiration from the
> Holy Ghost.
That, right there, is one of the reasons I like the LDS better than
some. Many sects, or at least their adherents, come off as appearing to
say "every word in the Bible is the literal truth, and we're going to
use it against you without needing to prove it..."
The LDS suggest that you think for yourself. Now, some of the resulting
laws in Utah seem to try to legislate morality, which I do have a bit of
a problem with, but I digress.
> However, you speak of a web of trust. The prophet Joseph Smith, as well as
> members of the three witnesses and later the eight witnesses of the
> golden plates, are within my web of trust. I personally believe their
> testimonies to be good enough to add to my own.
Good deal. I'm happy for you. (and I mean that sincerely, not a shred of
sarcasm intended there...)
However when I speak of web of trust, it is more than merely taking
someone's word for it, it includes all the trappings of the scientific
method including peer review and repeatable experiments. That's a bit
different. (You and I agree that the BOM can't be verified, it's a
testament of faith not a revealed truth.)
Some examples...
I have good reason to believe that (almost) all of my factorees are good
honest people and will make good on their dealings with others. This
despite being convinced that several of them have world views that are
just plain "wrong". (1)
I have good reason to believe you're a swell person and believe what you
believe, and I'd, if you wrote me next week and told me that the angel
Moroni appeared to you on September 11, 1999, personally, take you at
your word for it that you believed it, because I believe you to be
sincere and honest and well meaning, even if you're "wrong" about how
the world actually works.
Neither of those things (which ARE webs of trust) are what I mean about
scientific webs of trust. Sorry if I didn't make that clear enough.
Esoteric point, no doubt. Think of a scientific web of trust as more
like a proof system, although that's not quite it either.
1 - Different spheres. However, someone with a world view that's "wrong"
has to prove themselves to be reliable to me before I trust them(2). All
my factorees have. And even if I am wrong about them I can still make
the buyers right anyway, if I had to. Not that it would come to that.
2 - recall that I have said in the past that people with flawed morals
are people that I don't implicitly trust because they have come out and
said things like "it's OK to take from the rich and give to the poor" so
that makes me wonder, since I'm "rich" (-er than them, anyway), whether
they are going to take from ME by not completing a deal... their morals
seem say it's OK. So I tend to be suspicious till I build up some
experience.
--
Larry Pieniazek larryp@novera.com http://my.voyager.net/lar
- - - Web Application Integration! http://www.novera.com
fund Lugnet(tm): http://www.ebates.com/ Member ref: lar, 1/2 $$ to
lugnet.
NOTE: I have left CTP, effective 18 June 99, and my CTP email
will not work after then. Please switch to my Novera ID.
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