Subject:
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Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Sat, 11 Sep 1999 17:03:00 GMT
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Viewed:
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1440 times
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John Neal wrote in message <37DA72D1.544B539@uswest.net>...
> Please, this is utter nonsense. In your minds you may think that is the
> reason; maybe it makes you feel more comfortable about not being apart of a
> Church I don't know, but your perception has little to do with reality. At • the
> very least provide evidence or examples.
I was speaking for myself on this - I don't know how it stands in other
people's minds. It could be that Moz is upset with me for quoting him so
much, but he deserves it - twisting everything that anyone else says. But,
I won't back down - I sincerely believe all religions that I have
encountered are based on fiction, thought up by a person for the purpose of
deceiving and beguiling others. If you believe your religion has "evolved"
into something else, so be it. If you believe it started out as something
*real* then I have a friend in bridge realty...
You want evidence or examples. Pick your favorite cult - they are all in
the same boat.
> > This is the same as
> > any government that has ever been formed (even the US'). The motive • behind
> > these institutions is evil, while the rhetoric appeals to the strongest
> > emotions we have
>
> Again, nonsense. Governments are created to organize society, to provide
> order. Are you saying anarchy and chaos are *good*?
Are you saying our government is good? I think it is the best, but that
doesn't make it good, not even close. I maintain that all governments are
designed to make those who run it rich at the expense of everyone else. You
are a sensible person - how can you argue with that??
> > (like security, charity and justice). Even though, now, in
> > the US, it is a choice to belong to a church, it can be very difficult to
> > throw off 2,000 years of tradition - so the church (which is losing • members
> > at an overwhelming pace, fortunately)
>
> Again, you post from ignorance. Maybe you shouldn't comment on something • about
> which you know so little.
Oh? Which part? Check your own facts... maybe you mean its hard to
throw off 5,000 years of tradition? People have been actively sacrificing
their selves for at least that long... for God(s) or country.
> > continues to steal from its faithful
> > followers. I don't dislike Christians for belonging to churches, but I
> > don't like people (who run churches, and governments) that steal from
> > others, especially in the name of something which is supposed to be • "good."
>
> We have covered this. Tithing, giving money to a church is no different • than
> sending money to the Red Cross to assist those affected in Turkey for • example.
> IT IS VOLUNTARY. You may think people are stupid for giving their money • away
> to those in need. Fine, that's your prerogative. But please stop calling • it
> stealing.
OK. I won't call it stealing, I will call it theft.
> > > What's wrong with a church which you CHOSE to belong to setting
> > > requirements on that belonging? As far as I am aware, there is nothing
> > > in the U.S. (and most European countries) REQUIRING you to belong to a
> > > church. WHy shouldn't the church collect momey to support itself, in
> > > fact, you are "stealing" if you wish to avail yourself of the churches
> > > services without contributing to that church (of course if the church
> > > feels you are "deserving" of charity, then they may chose to extend
> > > those services to you without cost, or for a reduced cose).
> >
> > Hey, its your choice, foolish as it may (or may not) be.
> >
> > > Now the church of old is a different story.
> >
> > Less different than you seem to think, IMO.
> >
> > > Only if you grant "the church"/"god" the power condemn you to hell. If
> > > you don't grant this power, then you needn't let the church "steal" from
> > > you. If you do grant this power, then it seems to me that you accept the
> > > premise of that church, and should then accept the requirement to
> > > contribute.
> >
> > The people who don't grant that power don't belong to churches. I • can't
> > speak for those who belong to churches - I honestly don't understand why
> > they do.
>
> You can't speak (intelligently at least) for much on this subject because • you
> are ill-informed. Your perceptions of the Church are locked in somewhere • in
> the Middle Ages-- a few things have happened since that time (The • Reformation,
> for one). You look at a few examples of abuse of power/corruption/etc in • the
> history of the Church and label it thus, all Churches, all the time. When • you espouse generalizations and hearsay
> you get weak and IMO slanderous arguments.
"The Church" still is in the Middle Ages. These bands of Christians who
belong to non tax-paying organazations called churches in the US are what I
was referring to in the paragraph you call slanderous. I don't know why
anyone belongs to those (which is what I wrote) and can't begin to guess
why. You called me ill-informed... inform me - tell me why people are a
part of this. You see (or you don't pay much attention) stories of
corruption in little churches just as often as you do in The Church, yet you
believe your particular church is different, that it is flawless, that
you're not being lied to. If there is one in the land thats not corrupt,
I'd lose a bet.
> So give it up (John et Moz). The Church is *not* an example of stealing--
> stick with sticking it to the government.
We'll get back to that. :-)
The sooner the better.
> -John
>
> >
Have fun!
John
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