Subject:
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Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Wed, 1 Sep 1999 03:47:22 GMT
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Viewed:
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1553 times
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Larry Pieniazek <lar@voyager.net> wrote in message
news:37CC346F.72117709@voyager.net...
>
> So no specific kind is required? False Idols are OK? Ikons are in, or
> out? Name in vain is OK? Which of the commandments do I have to keep?
> All 10? best of 7? Seems pretty specific to me there.
Okay, that is "specific." Usually "specific" is referred to as meaning
"stand up sit down say this get up sit down say that pray sing pray talk
pray leave period."
> OK, OK, part of the issue really is the many sects of Christianity...
> many of which claim they have the only, or best, way to worship. I
> should not tar you with that brush, sorry about that. You've not
> actually come out and said that. I think I like John's brand better than
> yours though, he seems somewhat tolerant.
He may be. I'm not out to be intolerant, but I'm not the most tolerant
person on the face of the planet either. In the end, it's your soul (or
lack thereof) and you're free to do as you please. Just don't say we didn't
warn you.
> But the fundamental point is this: Unless I accept your god, I am
> damned. No matter whether my life is perfect in every other way or not.
> To me, (and this is semantics, I admit) having to say "I accept" IS
> groveling.
Fair enough. I've always considered the deadliest of the seven deadly sins
to be pride. Ever see Devil's Advocate? Al Pacino makes a good devil.
> I agree my morals are superior to many other ones, heck, you OR I could
> dig up lots of quotes where I said just that, I'm no moral relativist.
> But you lost me when you said that because mine are better than others,
> that implies that there are some better than mine. What if mine actually
> ARE perfect? Run THAT thought experiment and let me know.
Whatever yours are, there are people who would disagree with them. Since
you're not relativist, then yours are better or worse than theirs. If yours
are better, it is possible that yours aren't the best, seeing how you're
only human and don't spend your life sitting on a mountaintop contemplating
these things (nor did the Founding Fathers, whom I'd submit are your
collective God, in a way). I can't imagine that mortal man could stumble
across a perfect moral code.
> I'm not a moral relativist. And I didn't make these morals up out of
> whole cloth, they are the morals that the Founding Fathers had in mind
> for this place you and are in, and the ones that underpin the LP, so
> it's not just me ranting. (not *just* me ranting :-) )
I know, I suffered through HS with a Libertarian. You're not the first.
> I don't like being told I'm wrong when I'm not, but in the general case,
> I'm fine. Just ask John Neal. When he and I were playing fus, we were
> trying to find people who could administer a sound drubbing to us
> because they were better players. If that's not seeking out people who
> can tell you you are wrong (about where to put your men in defense, and
> how to slide one past their defense to pass it forward and a hundred
> other things) I don't know what is. Perhaps you should ask yourself the
> same question, though.
I don't like it too much, but I accept that people will do that. But I'm
not here to claim my own morals, but the God of Christianity. That's why I
try not to put too much spin on what the Bible says, because as soon as I do
I'm touting my own morals.
> You're losing me here. What is it, then? Anything I care to say is? John
> at least articulated what he feels it is. Do you agree with his
> definition or not?
What was his definition? I think I do.
> Sez you. I think I'm paying better attention than you can handle so
> you're dodging. Please actually answer my hypothetical. Is that your god
> or not?... and if not, construct a similar description.
Without arguing semantics, then yes it is. But implicit in your
hypothetical god is a value judgement that you are better than the murderer
because you didn't do as much bad stuff. You can't/won't/don't see how the
Christian view differs from this. We all sin, we are all bad. If you
really want to rank us, fine, but compared to a perfect God and a perfect
Jesus we all fail. We all fail and we all actively rebel against God. That
means that we deserve Hell, because God won't accept imperfection
(spiritual) in his kingdom. Yet as wayward as we are, He still loved/loves
us enough to send Jesus to live a perfect life and become the perfect
sacrifice. We come into God's family (and His kingdom) by accepting this
sacrifice.
If a murderer accepts Christ as God and savior, then he is forgiven. If a
"good man" does not, he is condemned. Just because the murderer fell much
more than the good man doesn't mean he can't be forgiven. Good deeds
without faith in Christ are not going to get you into heaven. If you're
trying to leap a gap and miss, it doesn't really matter if you miss long or
miss short. You miss. God doesn't give extra credit for effort in this
case(which I know is going to start a whole new thread).
Living "well" is your definition in this case, not God's, which is why I
responded like I did. It's not His definition of "well" we're using, it's
yours. That is why I see you as not paying attention (that, and the
semantics of groveling). I hope I've not dodged this question for you
again.
This is the point I've been trying to make for a while. In the long run
there are more important things than health, wealth, and faithless good
deeds. We place a lot of emphasis on those things down here, but they only
last as long as our lives, and then they are gone. Faith, a close walk with
God, and accepting Christ are the kinds of things that have eternal
significance. People outside of Christianity often reverse the order, and
don't like God because His values are different. We can agree on the facts
of what God does and says, but where you see vengeance I see justice, and
where you see groveling I see loving someone who loved me when I still hated
Him. You then call Him evil or flawed or whatever, and that is what I
disagree with. I don't see Him as evil or flawed or whatever. I see things
in a different light. I do not consider it dodging.
Jesse
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