Subject:
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Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Wed, 1 Sep 1999 04:15:45 GMT
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Reply-To:
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lpieniazek@novera%SayNoToSpam%.com
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Viewed:
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1369 times
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Much better, thank you.
To a certain extent I already knew this but it needed articulating for
everyone else. I'm gonna snip away most of what you and I said, but I
still have to focus on this part...
Jesse Long wrote:
> If a murderer accepts Christ as God and savior, then he is forgiven. If a
> "good man" does not, he is condemned. Just because the murderer fell much
> more than the good man doesn't mean he can't be forgiven. Good deeds
> without faith in Christ are not going to get you into heaven. If you're
> trying to leap a gap and miss, it doesn't really matter if you miss long or
> miss short. You miss. God doesn't give extra credit for effort in this
> case(which I know is going to start a whole new thread).
You bet it is. LOL.
THIS is why I say your god is mean and sadistic. I don't care whether
you accuse me of hubris or not, but I am going to set myself up as
competent to pass judgement here. Only a self aggrandizing god would
require that an otherwise honest and good man who won't worship your god
goes to hell, only a sadistic god would take up a man who was evil his
whole life, never compensated his victims, but on his deathbed decided
he was sorry he did it, and really truly with all his heart repents.
I just don't want to share heaven with murderers and torturers, no
matter if they decided they were sorry, really really sorry, or not. I'd
rather share hell with the honest hardworking folk who won't go along
with your god's little game. I reject your god. If I stipulate he exists
for the sake of this discussion, he has no moral right to pass
judgement. His morals are flawed. Mine are better. This life is what is
important.
I reject the notion that we're all sinners. I'll never accept that. It
can't be proven to my satisfaction. People are basically good, not evil.
A newborn baby cannot possibly be a sinner, he has committed no acts of
evil and he cannot be held responsible for the acts of his ancestors. So
your god is wrong about that and evil for condemning that baby to
purgatory.
> I hope I've not dodged this question for you again.
You've answered to my satisfaction and I understood your point of view
all along. I'm just not sure you understand mine. For you see, despite
all I say, you and your god have judged me far more than I've judged
you. Or him. And that's too bad, really.
I'd prefer a god who gave law and punished disobedience to one who loves
us all unconditionally. What have we done to earn it if we're all
sinners? If there is no reward in the next life for being virtuous in
this one, why bother?
The reason is that this life matters and virtue is its own reward. There
is no next one.
Summing up:
- God doesn't exist
- If there is a god, it's doubtful he's your god
- If he is, my virtue isn't good enough for him, but some murderers
repentance is
- therefore he's evil
- therefore I'll gladly take the bet to rot in hell because either there
is no hell, it's not his creation, or he's not worthy of my worship
That's about it, really. I'll try to stop on this topic now as it will
be yet another rehash if I keep going.
--
Larry Pieniazek larryp@novera.com http://my.voyager.net/lar
- - - Web Application Integration! http://www.novera.com
fund Lugnet(tm): http://www.ebates.com/ Member ref: lar, 1/2 $$ to
lugnet.
NOTE: I have left CTP, effective 18 June 99, and my CTP email
will not work after then. Please switch to my Novera ID.
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