 | | | | | | |
| |
|
It’s only a couple of weeks in the new year, and it looks like it’s going to be
an interesting 2004!
I have a request, but before I go any further, let me say that personally, I
understand the concerns surrounding the color changes. I know many of you think
of me as a marketer here to shill products. I’m an AFOL too with a healthy
collection of light and dark gray, so I can understand your concerns.
As both my duty as the Community Development Manager, and as an AFOL, I’m
interested in helping to make sure that the LEGO Company fully understands the
issues you have as well. I’m looking for your help to deliver the message. To be
totally clear, this is me asking in order to have answers ready if and when my
colleagues ask.
I would ask that you reply to this thread with your thoughts and feelings about
the color issue, both for and against. One post per person, I would think would
make sense. I would ask that the debate be restricted to other threads, and that
all posts be rational, calm, and non-hateful. This will ensure that I can more
easily pass along the information, and that the message isn’t bogged down in
debate.
Please understand that this is simply a fact/feeling/thought finding mission,
and does not mean that the decision to change colors is going to be changed.
Many of you have asked for the latest status information. There is nothing new
to report at this point. The color change is proceeding as planned, and sets are
rolling (and have already rolled) off the line with the new colors.
But I know that you don’t like this answer, so please use this opportunity (as
well as continuing to direct complaints and feedback through LEGO Customer
Service) as a way to have your voices heard.
Again, we are not changing the colors back, and from what I know now, we aren’t
considering it. This is an information gathering mission only.
Thanks in advance for your help!
Jake
---
Jake McKee
Community Development Manager
LEGO Community Development
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In lugnet.lego, Jake McKee wrote:
| |
I would ask that you reply to this thread with your thoughts and feelings
about the color issue, both for and against. One post per person, I would
think would make sense. I would ask that the debate be restricted to other
threads, and that all posts be rational, calm, and non-hateful. This will
ensure that I can more easily pass along the information, and that the
message isn’t bogged down in debate.
|
I don’t like the new grays simply because they do not match my existing grays.
Since I am primarily a Castle builder/collector, I have a substantial supply of
OLD gray pieces (both light and dark). The new dark gray has too blue, but the
new light gray is *tolerable*.
Thanks for your efforts to hear us out Jake.
-Bryan
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Well personaly I like the new colors, yes, they may be annoying on the issue of
people who invested alot in one color, but... The only issue i have, which Lego
can’t solve anyways, is, & has been, the naming of the colors on BrickLink, lol,
come on, there’s NOTHING blueish about them, think of it from a non-english (as
a 1st langauge) spearer, or a newbie, they might confuse sand blue, of think its
a different color. Jon even admitted that the “ish” has no translation!
Thanks for the neat new building colors Lego!
Josh
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In lugnet.lego, Jake McKee wrote:
| |
I would ask that you reply to this thread with your thoughts and feelings
about the color issue, both for and against. One post per person, I would
think would make sense. I would ask that the debate be restricted to other
threads, and that all posts be rational, calm, and non-hateful. This will
ensure that I can more easily pass along the information, and that the
message isn’t bogged down in debate.
|
Jake,
As an AFOL, I feel the color change impacts me on a basic, root level.
Parts will come and go, themes will come and go. The one constant, to me, was
the 5 or 6 original colors of the product I grew up with. This is a change at
the fundamental level. No matter what elements are available at any time, at
least the colors matched. Now, nothing is constant (other than the
stud-to-brick connection, but let’s hope that standard doesn’t get changed
without warning as well).
I don’t believe that many have an issue with adding new colors to the palette.
I certainly don’t. The issue is really the loss of the old colors. In
particular (at least to me), light grey, which is in almost every space, castle,
town, boat, train, technic, etc. set I have ever spent my money on.
Nick Kappatos
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Calmly, and rationally....
It is my opinion that the new grays look more... uhmm... "mechanical",
and although I'll admit it is absolutely _superb_ for modelling stuff
that is supposed to be steel or some sort of metallic alloy, it won't
cut it for modelling more natural objects. It's not so much the fact
that the hues don't match exactly that bothers me, as much as the color
itself simply doesn't seem amenable to certain classes of models.
My $0.02
>> Mark
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| |
|
Hi Jake,
I haven’t actually seen the new colors yet; my buying has slowed down a lot in
the last year or two, mostly driven by other factors rather than less interest.
However, the new colors *have* contributed to my not buying any new sets yet
this year.
I’m a castle builder. I’ve got a lot of money and time and collecting effort
investing into my current set of grey. Producing a new color doesn’t threaten
this collection - in fact, it adds options - I went gaga over the ‘sand’ colors
when they were new. In a lot of ways a new grey, close-to-but-different from
the existing, is something I’ve wanted for a while, but have always viewed as a
pipe dream, because LEGO makes a light grey. It would be daunting to build up
my collection to where I could use it in conjunction with the existing, but it
could be done if I liked the color.
So I don’t disklike the color on principle; variety is the spice of life, live
on! What has me not buying sets is that the old grey is gone. With a single
marketing decision, LEGO has killed any number of future and current projects by
cutting the source of material. If I don’t have enough of an existing part, I
now have to go to the secondary market, and the price will go up as the
availability goes down. This is admittedly nothing new, but previous to this,
there has always lurked the “LEGO might make more” to keep prices in line and
keep people hoping. Further to this is that new parts will never come out in
this color. If tomorrow Lego started producing one of my “dream” elements, it
will simply never appear in the color I build with the most, and have the most
versatile range of elements in.
As an example, I’ve long had a ‘design study’ floating around in my brain to
make a gradually sloping round tower using the 2x2x3 slopes and corner slopes -
but the corner slopes in light grey have not yet appeared in any real volume (1
large pirate set had one of them). While LEGO was still producing the existing
grey, I could keep this design shelved as a possibility for when/if Lego ever
produced that part in volume. Now I either scrap the idea, or hope that both
elements I would need get produced in volume, and that I like the color they’re
produced in.
I hope that illustrates some of my own frustration with the color change.
thanks,
James
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| |
|
In lugnet.lego, Jake McKee wrote:
> It's only a couple of weeks in the new year, and it looks like it's going to
> be an interesting 2004!
>
> I have a request, but before I go any further, let me say that personally, I
> understand the concerns surrounding the color changes. I know many of you
> think of me as a marketer here to shill products. I'm an AFOL too with a
> healthy collection of light and dark gray, so I can understand your concerns.
>
> As both my duty as the Community Development Manager, and as an AFOL, I'm
> interested in helping to make sure that the LEGO Company fully understands
> the issues you have as well. I'm looking for your help to deliver the
> message. To be totally clear, this is me asking in order to have answers
> ready if and when my colleagues ask.
>
> I would ask that you reply to this thread with your thoughts and feelings
> about the color issue, both for and against. One post per person, I would
> think would make sense. I would ask that the debate be restricted to other
> threads, and that all posts be rational, calm, and non-hateful. This will
> ensure that I can more easily pass along the information, and that the
> message isn't bogged down in debate.
>
> Please understand that this is simply a fact/feeling/thought finding mission,
> and does not mean that the decision to change colors is going to be changed.
> Many of you have asked for the latest status information. There is nothing
> new to report at this point. The color change is proceeding as planned, and
> sets are rolling (and have already rolled) off the line with the new colors.
>
> But I know that you don't like this answer, so please use this opportunity
> (as well as continuing to direct complaints and feedback through LEGO
> Customer Service) as a way to have your voices heard.
>
> Again, we are not changing the colors back, and from what I know now, we
> aren’t considering it. This is an information gathering mission only.
>
> Thanks in advance for your help!
Jake-
Brave man, you, broaching this, and I appreciate it a great deal.
I made my feelings understood in the informational bit regarding
the restructuring moves, but I'll put it here again for reference.
As with so many things, our criticism of this move--vehement though
it is--is in no way a dislike of LEGO or of you (as you of course
know). Rather, we appreciate it and feel that our voices will at
some level be heard and considered, even if it comes to naught in
the end. That is a positive thing, so it's not love or hate--but
rather a shade of grey (heh) where close friends must be honest
with their feelings.
But in short, I fulminate about the color issue because I *live* grey.
I use a lot of grey. A *lot* of grey. Both light and dark greys,
of which I own somewhere over 500lb of each. This change affects
me *dramatically*, where the mismatch is just enough to make large
constructions look sloppy and "new" condition bricks and plates
appear old. It is also not a complementary mismatch; it is as
though a slight yellow tint is being replaced with a slight blue
one, instead of a move towards neutral that would be less jarring.
The result is that I can barely use the new dark grey except in
very out-of-the-way details on non-dark-grey backgrounds. Same
with light grey--on large constructions it's useless outside of
very carefully circumscribed applications. Brown will be a whole
new problem, but as I have not yet seen the new brown, I reserve
judgement on it. I do not own nearly as much brown as I own of
the greys.
To date I have heard two family complaints--one from my sister, and one
from my cousin--about the LEGO they have bought for their children
having a "problem" with the greys. I may be hearing this concern
because they know how tuned-in I am, but the company may only hear
a tiny number of these complaints that sound for all the world
like concerns over LEGO's quality control. You can tell us until
you're blue in your faces, but we understand the *quality* has not
diminished significantly pretty clearly. The average consumer does
not; all they'll know is that the new bricks don't match, and that
*will* do significant damage to public perception. Again, you may
hear only rarely any comment made about the color change by the
average consumer, but please don't think it's gone unnoticed because of
that. I have never ever heard a complaint about the color palette
being too bland from a consumer before; I doubt I will hear anyone
now saying "wow, the greys are a lot nicer now!" if they say anything
acknowledging the change overtly.
The color change has prevented me from investing in any new 2004 sets;
I now go completely to BrickLink for my buying needs, or I purchase
older bulk packs and sets. Although the pieces in the new sets have
me very excited--the new Millennium Falcon being at the top--the colors
prevent their use in display quality (or even aesthetically enjoyable)
castle, building, or large ship MOCs. As a result, I do not expect to
be buying any new sets that use the changed colors extensively (well,
I'll *consider* it at 75% off...)
In short, I cannot see any positive benefit for LEGO in the color change
out of those that have been proffered. I can only conclude that it is a
reason that has not been shared with us--and perhaps has not even been
shared with you--that has dictated such a change. And that saddens me,
because if it is a move for greater profitability it will backfire
horribly, damaging customer confidence in the LEGO brand in the process
--and the crucial role of a senseless change that destroyed the
chromatic compatibility of existing collections and new sets in that
disaster may not be realized until it's too late. The hallmark and
strength of LEGO has long been the consistency of its lines--is that
philosophy being once again jettisoned, just as the company is finding
its feet afresh?
LEGO, I beseech thee--reconsider this!
all best
LFB (The Gigantic Friggin' Ship Guy)
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.lego, Lindsay Frederick Braun wrote:
| |
To date I have heard two family complaints--one from my sister, and one
from my cousin--about the LEGO they have bought for their children
having a “problem” with the greys. I may be hearing this concern
because they know how tuned-in I am, but the company may only hear
a tiny number of these complaints that sound for all the world
like concerns over LEGO’s quality control. You can tell us until
you’re blue in your faces, but we understand the *quality* has not
diminished significantly pretty clearly.
|
“You can tell us until you’re blue in your faces”... LOL!
Lindsay, if that was intentional, it’s brilliant. If it wasn’t intentional,
it’s still brilliant!
JohnG, GMLTC
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In lugnet.lego, Jake McKee wrote:
| |
I would ask that you reply to this thread with your thoughts and feelings
about the color issue, both for and against.
|
Firstly, I’ll qualify my response by saying I haven’t actaully seen the new
colours yet. I expect it’ll be a few more weeks before the ‘04 sets reach our
shores.
My concern is that the change to me seems a bit pointless. The pertinent
question is ‘why?’, and the answers given so far haven’t really satisfied. In
fact in the threads that grew when this issue broke, many valid questions were
raised and never answered.
If this colour change is in fact considered to be an improvement by the company,
why are they being so secretive about it? If it is an improvement, why leave it
as a surprise to the consumer? Why leave them thinking that there’s been a
mistake in making the colours instead of it being deliberate.
I find the whole situation quite baffling to be frank.
| |
Please understand that this is simply a fact/feeling/thought finding mission,
and does not mean that the decision to change colors is going to be changed.
Many of you have asked for the latest status information. There is nothing
new to report at this point. The color change is proceeding as planned, and
sets are rolling (and have already rolled) off the line with the new colors.
But I know that you don’t like this answer, so please use this opportunity
(as well as continuing to direct complaints and feedback through LEGO
Customer Service) as a way to have your voices heard.
|
You said previously that the change came about as a result of ‘consumer
feedback’. My question is: How much negative feedback was there that a change as
fundamental as this is not only considered, but actually implemented? Was it
comparable to the level of ‘feedback’ arguing against the change here on LUGNET.
From what I’ve seen of the group - number of complaints that the greys were
‘muddy’: None - number of complaints about the change: many many. Interpolating
that over the general lego buying public makes me wonder what really initiated
the change.
| |
Again, we are not changing the colors back, and from what I know now, we
aren’t considering it. This is an information gathering mission only.
|
If it’s a fait acompli, isn’t all this a bit redundant then?
Cheers,
Allister
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| |
|
First off, has anyone verified the accuracy of the claimed reason for the color
change, i.e. to make the grays more "in line" with the other colors? I know
very little about color theory, but naively, I'd say gray is 1/2 white and 1/2
black, or maybe 1/3 - 2/3 or maybe 1/4 - 3/4; regardless, these new grays
clearly have a bluish tint (compared to the old), so to me, the claim that the
colors are more "linear" with the other colors is suspect. (However, maybe the
old grays were just skewed toward blue's complement (orange?).) I know there's a
chart of the "Pantone" numbers of the official colors. Has anyone done a color
analysis of the new versions?
Anyway, I am very upset by the color change. I see very little reason for it,
and I suspect that it was done as a cost-cutting measure. I saw mentioned in
the following thread http://news.lugnet.com/general/?n=43593 that LEGO has a new
recycling process, and the recycled ABS is used to make black and gray. I
suspect that the new grays may somehow be the result of this recycled material.
I sent a letter to TLC in December with my thoughts, and here's a copy of it:
Dear TLG,
I am very disappointed and upset by your decision to replace the colors light
gray, dark gray, and brown. I recently purchased some of the newest 2004 Star
Wars LEGO sets and was surprised to find the colors did not match the original
version. I noticed the color change immediately upon opening the sets. I
initially thought it might be a bad production run, but then I saw Jake McKee’s
posts at LUGNET.com and FBTB.net that the changes were indeed on purpose and
permanent. Although this may sound melodramatic, I honestly feel abandoned by
this poor decision.
To begin, I am 30 years old and emerged from my LEGO “dark age” about two years
ago. In those short two years, I have purchased over $4,500 worth of LEGO
bricks, particularly in the Star Wars theme. In this theme, light and dark gray
are featured prominently. With my purchases of large sets such as the Star
Destroyer, AT-AT, and AT-TE, just to name a few, I probably own more gray bricks
than any other color. And I still have my collection of LEGO bricks from my
youth, where light gray was the predominant color in the Classic Space sets.
I have purchased LEGO bricks over your competitors’ products for one important
reason: quality. Part of that quality is consistency and continuity. The LEGO
bricks of my youth are (were) just as functional today as they were 20 years
ago. However, in my view, that quality has just decreased with the decision to
replace the standard grays (especially light gray). When I reach for a brick, I
can no longer be assured that the color will match the brick I just placed. I
understand TLG’s motivation to brighten the color palette, but I believe this
move will do more harm than good. Looking at people’s creations on the web,
gray seems to be a very popular color, from ships, to planes, to military
vehicles, to buildings, to spaceships. My teenage cousins likewise tend not to
build in the primary-colored bricks red, blue, yellow, etc. but rather tend to
build in the more-true-to-life grays. Light gray has been around for more than
20 years. Many people have large gray collections (or would like to). I have a
large gray collection. I would like to add to that collection, but I no longer
can. I must start from scratch if I want my colors to match.
I think it’s an especially poor decision to replace the gray colors in the
middle of the Star Wars license, where gray is featured so prominantly. I no
longer look forward as much to my future Star Wars LEGO purchases, as I know
that I am not adding to my collection, but instead am in some sense replacing
what I already have. At the very least, please consider delaying until 2007
when the Star Wars license expires to implement the change. Twenty years worth
of kids have bought and played with the current light gray. Don’t abandon us by
abandoning this color.
I understand TLG hopes to make the gray and brown colors more “consistent” with
the other bright primary colors. If this were a NEW color, I would
wholeheartedly agree. But to REPLACE a color “this late in the game” is unwise.
The color changes are not so different that they would somehow lead to
dramatically increased sales. But they will serve to alienate the adult LEGO
enthusiasts. This is an extreme example, but perhaps why not change the aspect
ratio of a LEGO brick so that it is exactly wide as it is tall? And why not
make plates half the height of a brick rather than a third? These suggestions
would be more elegant and aesthetically pleasing than the current
implementation. But you would not, of course, because it would be inconsistent
with the years of previous bricks. Please don’t make the gray and brown bricks
inconsistent with those that existed previously for years. Honor your founder’s
motto “Only the best is good enough” by quality through consistency and
continuity.
Thank you sincerely,
[signed]
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.lego, Walter Walters wrote:
> I saw mentioned in the following thread http://news.lugnet.com/general/?n=43593
> that LEGO has a new recycling process, and the recycled ABS is used to make
> black and gray. I suspect that the new grays may somehow be the result of
> this recycled material.
Anything can be recycled into black, because carbon is the cheapest source of
black colorant (with the added benefit of being naturally UV resistant), and it
will overpower any previous colors. This did get me thinking, though, that the
greys got colder, and brown got warmer. If blue tones are being added to the
greys, and red tones are being added to brown, that could explain the wonky
results.
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
Hello Jake, thank you for this opportunity.
I was part of the crowd that was infuriated by the color change. Since the
change, however, I have taken an objective approach to evaluate exactly how the
new colors (especially light and dark gray) will affect my building and
purchasing behavior.
After the initial shock subsided, curiosity and concern about one of my favorite
products prompted me to purchase the new Snowspeeder and three of the four new
Mini sets. The Mini Imperial Shuttle is by far my favorite Mini set to date,
and the parts included in the Mini ISD are fantastic. I found that I liked the
new shades of gray...but only by themselves.
When mixed with the classic grays, the new grays create a distracting contrast
which, in my opinion, renders the gray scale palette of LEGO bricks
disharmonious and broken. I’m trying desperately to comprehend the reasoning
behind this decision, as it seems to me TLC has hurt its product, not helped it.
May I provide an example with no intention of being self-serving? Here’s my
first MOC using a mixture of classic and new gray, a Sith Infiltrator....
http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?f=65287
At first glance yourself and others may or may not see much difference, but
study the photos closely and you can easily discern the classic and new colors.
Again, the contrast is ugly. This is but a small example of the discontinuity
created by the color changes, and is greatly magnified for those who build large
MOCs with a dominant color such as light gray. You may argue that TLC does not
necessarily target the adult builder and therefore did not consider the color
change significant; but I recall, as a young builder, being quite miffed if
something about my creation didn’t match. I believe the color change is
unwelcome across the age spectrum, though I have no proof. From this point
forward, I will most likely concentrate my spending on Bricklink orders of
classic gray for building MOCs. I will buy one copy of the new Millenium
Falcon, but nothing more for this year.
In closing, I hope this is the type of response you were seeking, and I thank
you once again for an additional outlet through which to vent.
-Matt
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.lego, Jake McKee wrote:
| |
It’s only a couple of weeks in the new year, and it looks like it’s going to
be an interesting 2004!
I have a request, but before I go any further, let me say that personally, I
understand the concerns surrounding the color changes. I know many of you
think of me as a marketer here to shill products. I’m an AFOL too with a
healthy collection of light and dark gray, so I can understand your concerns.
As both my duty as the Community Development Manager, and as an AFOL, I’m
interested in helping to make sure that the LEGO Company fully understands
the issues you have as well. I’m looking for your help to deliver the
message. To be totally clear, this is me asking in order to have answers
ready if and when my colleagues ask.
|
Thank you for requesting our input on this issue. If you can tell us, what is
your opinion as an AFOL of the color change - both the colors themselves, and
the manner in which the change was handled?
| |
I would ask that you reply to this thread with your thoughts and feelings
about the color issue, both for and against. One post per person, I would
think would make sense. I would ask that the debate be restricted to other
threads, and that all posts be rational, calm, and non-hateful. This will
ensure that I can more easily pass along the information, and that the
message isn’t bogged down in debate.
Please understand that this is simply a fact/feeling/thought finding mission,
and does not mean that the decision to change colors is going to be changed.
Many of you have asked for the latest status information. There is nothing
new to report at this point. The color change is proceeding as planned, and
sets are rolling (and have already rolled) off the line with the new colors.
But I know that you don’t like this answer, so please use this opportunity
(as well as continuing to direct complaints and feedback through LEGO
Customer Service) as a way to have your voices heard.
Again, we are not changing the colors back, and from what I know now, we
aren’t considering it. This is an information gathering mission only.
|
Ah, but two months ago, TLC would have said the exact same thing: “We are not
changing our colors, and are not considering such a change”. I hope you
understand the damage that TLC’s actions have done to our level of trust towards
the company.
Any change of this magnitude should have come with some sort of warning, if not
consultation. Not only were customers left in the dark (most of whom won’t know
about the change until they open a new set), but many TLC employees were not
notified of the change. What is the explanation for this?
Furthermore, if the new colors are an improvement that will presumably improve
sales, why hasn’t the change been publicized? No “New Colors!” stickers on
boxes, not even a little blurb in the catalog. Why did TLC try to sneak this
huge change past us?
As for the change itself, my main problem with it is the discontinuation of
light gray, dark gray, and brown. TLC’s decision to cut off the supply of pieces
in these colors makes it harder for me to build the things that I want to build.
I will not mix the new colors in with the old, and I will not attempt to build
up a collection of the new colors to replace the old.
The fact that new sets will not include light gray, dark gray, or brown pieces
that match the pieces I already own will have a big impact on my LEGO purchasing
this year. The only 2004 sets I will consider buying are those that do not
contain the new colors.
But I am now more skeptical about purchasing any new LEGO sets, because who
knows what the next color to be discontinued will be? How long until green or
blue is discontinued? It hurts to think this way about a company that has
brought me so much joy over the last 20 years. But fool me twice, shame on me.
| |
Thanks in advance for your help!
Jake
---
Jake McKee
Community Development Manager
LEGO Community Development
|
Thank you again for requesting our input. I hope that the new management at TLC
will hear our voices, and make the reversal of this pointless change the first
step on the road back to profitability.
Marc Nelson Jr.
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| |
|
Here are my current concerns about the color changes.
Note, I define the isssue as ‘replacing existing core colors with slightly
different colors’, so my opinion would be very different about new colors that
clearly differ from existing ones. Also this is not about the question if the
new colors are ‘looking better’ by themselves. It’s a system compatibility
issue.
1 It poses a sorting burden uncalled for
After a large MOC project I often spend many nights in my LEGO room sorting and
storing the pieces for the next project. This is not the most satisfying part of
the hobby, however I have established a fairly efficient method. I am severly
discomforted by the fact that I will have to sort out the four grays and two
browns an extra time and on close inspection. Actually I will have to change
the lighting in my room. I now have incandescent (yellowish) lights. To quickly
distinguish the new shades, I will need bright fluorescent lights. I’d hate to
discover some unwanted color differences in a MOC only after I built it and
taken it elsewhere (specially given the differences make the old grays look
they’ve been degraded over time, while my parts are actually in well kept
condition.) Ironically, Consumer Service at lego.com warns that fluorescent
lighting is known to yellow LEGO bricks over time.
2 It poses a storing burdon uncalled for
I store my pieces in rows and columns bins along a wall; ten core colors make
ten columns of bins (black, dark gray, gray, white, yellow, blue, red, green,
brown, tan). I planned on having those bins all equally fully filled over the
years (storing excess elsewhere). Due to the color change I’ll have to drop this
plan. First, some of the old gray and brown bins will never become filled from
buying new sets. Secondly, in time I will have to add three new columns for the
three new shades. (Or I might just mix old and new, once I give up the struggle
of issue 1).
3 It’s hard to know what you will get
When we buy a set, from now on you will have to note the production date to know
which colors you will get. Besides being cumbersome, the date is not always
known before you buy. For example a spare parts pack from shop@home. Also some
items are not determined by their set year, e.g. when do the old-grey rail
tracks - or wire connector- run out and do we get the new shade? Are TLG’s
inventory systems prepared to track these kind of changes and inform us before
we buy?. Also, production dates are not mentioned in printed retail catalogs.
For this year’s catalog ‘new’ means ‘new shades’. In next year’s catalog this
will not suffice as a distinction mark. The general public will not be aware of
the differences altogether, hence second-hands sets will be a random mix of
shades. You can’t tell the difference from the building instructions.
4 It may cause bad publicity
Many buyers may want to return sets if they discover the colors don’t match,
without knowing this is actual TLG policy. Consumer organisations and tv-shows
may want to have a bite at LEGO suddenly producing ‘off-colored’ bricks, even if
it were deliberately. Do your call agents know what to tell people when they
want a refund because ‘the colors don’t match’? Is there a policy? Are retailers
being informed so they can answer questions from their customers? (‘Does this
set contain the old or the new greys?’ ‘The colors are off, I want a new one’).
5 It’s irreversable
Although plenty of us ask for a reversal, the damage is already done. Even if
TLG would ‘change back’ next year, there would be a full year’s production of
different shades around, causing the same above issues next year for consumers
who bought the 2004 sets.
6 TLG is wasting effort
Even before the published loss over 2003, I found it uncomprehensible that in
these difficult economic times for TLG, some product developer was lend an ear
at all by management when he or she raised this issue. Remember ZNAP, GALIDOR
and the name change of the DUPLO brand. All those were major strategic failures
based on some optimistic marketing belief, and TLG had to discard product lines
or change back. While I don’t doubt the sound intentions of TLG designers and
marketeers individually, and their valid arguments, recent history shows how
changes can backfire because certain effects (such as mentioned above) were
overlooked or underestimated.
At the moment I just don’t know what to do with the new shades. I sort the grays
and brown of 2004 sets into a quarantaine bin until I get to grips with all of
the above. Likewise, it will probably take some years for us and TLG to
evaluate the enduring impact of these color changes.
Eric
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Jake McKee wrote:
> But I know that you don't like this answer, so please use this
opportunity (as
> well as continuing to direct complaints and feedback through LEGO
Customer
> Service) as a way to have your voices heard.
First things first. Forget "Customer Service". From being totally
ignorant of the issue at all to giving more or less random
"explanations" for the colour change we've seen it all (there was an
insightful posting from Rene on 1000steine.de, ask Kate). This is a sad
state that should be fixed before we are sent there again.
> Again, we are not changing the colors back, and from what I know now,
we aren’t
> considering it. This is an information gathering mission only.
So we could just say: "Why bother?". Nonetheless, I hope to raise a few
points for changing back to the original grey.
If I use the term "you" in this text, this is nothing personally, and
should be read "your company", or "TLC". I appreciate your and Kates
efforts to communicate with us, even if you can't influence the flow of
events.
1. Personally, this change in the greys is a catastrophy. My current MOC
already ate about 10000 grey bricks and is happily eating at least the
same amount again. Needless to say, this is not made from bricks laying
around. In contrast to the Legoland park builders, I don't have
unlimited access to bricks, and I have to spread the purchases over a
certain time. Originally, the aquisition window for the grey parts was
planned into 2004/2005, a planning which I can scrap now, maybe even
along the plans for completing my MOC. And I prefer new bricks for my
MOC, not used ones (except where not available), therefor your are
hurting yourself with closing this source, and, as you limit the access
to these bricks, you are also turmoiling the market and feeding
profiteers, something LEGO usually wants to avoid.
Needless to say, the finished first part of the MOC has been on show in
Berlin and Frechen, and the complete MOC was planned to be shown, too,
thus being part of the large cheap advertising crowd for LEGO called AFOLs.
2. Grey has been and is a basic colour for almost all areas of MOC
design. Wether one builds castle, space, city, trains - grey is there,
as walls, wings, pavements, technical parts, grey is omnipresent. It has
been available and has been used for ages and in quantities. I can't
tell it, but it may be one of the colours your company made the most
bricks of. So your company found an effective way to hurt almost all
MOC builders with one needless change.
3. The old grey was good enough for years and years. I've seen the grey
in my childhood, and it followed me around through several stages of my
LEGO life. Suddenly, the old grey is no longer acceptable. The
explanation given is weak to say at least. And instead of just adding a
new colour - which happened frequently in the last years - a more or
less basic colour is just being dropped like a hot potato. There's
something fishy in the state of Denmark...
Needless to say, with the packaging of the new models not showing the
new but the old colours, and most customers and retailers not being
aware of the issue (yet), the argumentation of focus groups liking the
new grey better that the old one is moot. Maybe they look better if seen
on their own. But even then, customers are looking at the boxes, which
still show the "right" grey. And, of course, you should know that you
can get almost any answer out of a focus group given the "right" questions.
4. A toy shop owner I talked to was alarmed when I told him of the
colour change. His concern was that non-matching colours would be seen
primarily as one of the many quality issues LEGO had and has (train
wheels, significant brick size derivations, et al), thus increasing
customer complaints.
5. If you change back to the old grey, there will be complaints from
some AFOLs of course. On the other hand, this may transform the 2004
sets with the "off-grey" to collector items for those who care (I
don't), thus raising their (sales) value. Given the current state of
feedback on the misc. boards and groups, the praise for reversing the
change will exceed the amount of boohs.
6. A lot of people see the new greys as a kowtow to the militaria fans,
thus sparking the name "Wehrmachtsgrau" (WW2 Nazi-German Army Grey) for
the new greys. Go figure about image and reputation issues. It may not
match 100%, but the new grey, especially the dark grey, seems to be a
close match to the MegaBlocks grey variants - a toy frequently related
to military models.
In summary, the colour change was and is one of the biggest mistakes
this company has committed in recent years, even exceeding the "Duplo is
now Explorer" issue in needless stupidity (Other words fail for me on
this topic, sorry! I really tried hard to be nicely on that...).
And the communication (or lack of it) of this very core issue to the
customer showed us how little the customer is taken into account, and
how rotten the internal communication in your company appears.
It also ruined your image of being a reliable, dependable and
trustworthy supplier for quality bricks. This makes me very sad.
Yours, Christian Treczoks
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|
In a rather round about way the colour changes have worked out rather well for
me. When I first read about the changes here on lugnet I felt an almost
physical stab of pain. It was quite irrational. At the time I couldn’t really
articulate why I felt so strongly about it and even now I struggle to understand
why I care so much about something that is in theory so simple. I guess this is
something like what the consumers involved in the “New Coke” debacle felt. Fair
enough for long established and much loved products to grow and branch out, but
to take away from the core product is (from the consumers point of view)
unacceptable.
I’ve got quite a large collection, large enough to justify sorting by both
colour and piece. The really annoying colours to sort are the newer ones, such
as purple where I only have a few instances of each piece. The threat of having
to start with the new colours was enough to make me re-evaluate my purchasing.
I stopped buying new kits and signed up for an ebay account.
Like I said, the colour change has worked out rather well for me. I’ve had a
great time buying up old classic space and pirate sets! I’ve acquired some of
the great classics that I either missed during my dark ages or where too
expensive when I was young. They look great on display, and when it comes time
to break them down they are easy to sort in with the rest of my collection, no
new colours and hardly any pieces that I don’t already have a draw for.
Since then I’ve only bought the 4 starwars mini sets with the new colours. I
don’t know yet what I’m going to do with the pieces, we’ll cross that bridge
when we come to it I guess.
Cheers
Tim
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Without going too far down the 'I remember when' line.
We all agree colour and colour range are an important aspect (even if the
word is incorrectly spelt). Too me the Lego colours have also been a source
of the charm of the product. The simple pallete corresponded with the
limitations on the realism of the sets. I mean this in a good way. It helped
define the style and image we have of what we consider to be the golden age
of set design. New colours and new pieces make our ability to produce a more
realistic model easier. A good example of this is the proliferation of the
new curved elements and the great use they have been put to (especially in
space models)
so we have change for the good of the product. All well and good. As I
belive you mentioned, the choice of new colours to add were not necessarily
made in a structured and pre-planned way. They need to be re-thought, this
also is correct. I have a few shades of light blue in my collection now,
they will make nice additions to small interior decorations or accentuation
of a model, but I don't have enough pieces, nor have enough different pieces
been made avaliable to make anything substantial so I'm not worried. The
colours need rethinking and rationalising and havent been around long ...
great.
So we come to the matter at hand ..greys and brown.
These are the ones that people are concerned about as they are fundimental
basic colours which hae been around (in the case of light grey and brown)
for 20 years at least. They are basics, primaries of the Lego system. Why
change them?? I have read the reasons behind the change. I understand the
reasons behind the change. I do not agree with the reasons behind the
change. Change for the sake of change is not a good thing.
Children in a focus group shown 2 colours and asked which they prefer out of
context (I am not saying this is definately what happended but I can well
belive it)
is not a fair test. Over the years Lego has made great steps .. through
community liaisons, support of fan activities and the release of products
the fans clamour for .. in removing the uncaring unlistening ivory tower
image of a company. This shows the total lack of empathy and awareness of
certain areas of the company, undoing much of the good work of other areas.
Concequences obviously have not been considered. How about the master
builders in the LEGOLand parks, with no way of reparing broken figures and
not the budget to replace them in total ?? A pattern we see often in new
products and constantly we are proved right. Bulk bricks are what people
want - Pick a Brick accounts for 10% of Lego Shop sales, Galidor won't wash
with the kids - Galidor is found in poundlands across the country, old sets
are great - LEGO Legends sell well, Tertiary (added value - non brick
based) products arent the way forward - recent LEGO press releases, Bionicle
is rubbish - err lets skip that one, a change in brick colour is not the way
forwards ..... lets see how this one pans out. Over the years LEGO have seen
their product become collectible and pieces or sets escalate in price far in
excess of their production values. It has capitalised - or erroded this (no
arguments there) by rerelease of sets / parts. Now its at risk of doing this
with colours.
I wont mind the colour change if they continue to release "LEGO Colour
Legends" packs. favorite colours form yesteryear faithfully reproduced :)
--
James Stacey
------
www.minifig.co.uk
Lugnet Member #925
I'm a citizen of Legoland travellin' Incommunicado
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Hi, Jake,
will Kate do an "official" translation of your posting (or her version
for that matter) for www.1000steine.de? Or could you grant me the
permission to translate and post it there?
yours, Christian Treczoks
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In lugnet.lego, Jake McKee wrote:
| |
It’s only a couple of weeks in the new year, and it looks like it’s going to
be an interesting 2004!
I have a request, but before I go any further, let me say that personally, I
understand the concerns surrounding the color changes. I know many of you
think of me as a marketer here to shill products. I’m an AFOL too with a
healthy collection of light and dark gray, so I can understand your concerns.
As both my duty as the Community Development Manager, and as an AFOL, I’m
interested in helping to make sure that the LEGO Company fully understands
the issues you have as well. I’m looking for your help to deliver the
message. To be totally clear, this is me asking in order to have answers
ready if and when my colleagues ask.
I would ask that you reply to this thread with your thoughts and feelings
about the color issue, both for and against. One post per person, I would
think would make sense. I would ask that the debate be restricted to other
threads, and that all posts be rational, calm, and non-hateful. This will
ensure that I can more easily pass along the information, and that the
message isn’t bogged down in debate.
Please understand that this is simply a fact/feeling/thought finding mission,
and does not mean that the decision to change colors is going to be changed.
Many of you have asked for the latest status information. There is nothing
new to report at this point. The color change is proceeding as planned, and
sets are rolling (and have already rolled) off the line with the new colors.
But I know that you don’t like this answer, so please use this opportunity
(as well as continuing to direct complaints and feedback through LEGO
Customer Service) as a way to have your voices heard.
Again, we are not changing the colors back, and from what I know now, we
aren’t considering it. This is an information gathering mission only.
Thanks in advance for your help!
Jake
---
Jake McKee
Community Development Manager
LEGO Community Development
|
I dont like the “new” colors because they dont match the “old” ones. That is
basically the whole reason I dislike them. I dont hate them but I certainly
would keep the “old” ones too. A good idea would be to make both colors but I
still would rather the “old” ones. I dont think I will be buying many sets with
a substantial amount of “new” gray in them from now on though.
-Jeff
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In lugnet.lego, Jake McKee wrote:
| |
I’m looking for your help to deliver the
message. To be totally clear, this is me asking in order to have answers
ready if and when my colleagues ask.
|
Jake,
Thank you asking these questions.
If I had the chance to send a message to the folks at your company, it would be
in the form of two questions:
1) Did the focus groups understand the potential ramifications of their
decisions?
For example: Let’s say you have a focus group where no one has ever seen a
skunk. And you say, “hey kids... do you like the cute animal with the pretty
white stripe on its tail?” And all the focus group kids shout out their
positive feelings for this lovely creature.
Conclusion: Kids like skunks. Is that an accurate answer? Without context it
may be, but we know it’s really not.
But suppose for a second that you took the group and asked them, “hey kids...
which do you like better... cats or dogs?” And with great glee all the kids
shout out, “DOGS!”.
Conclusion: Kids like dogs. Now you tell them, “that’s great... since you like
dogs we’re going to get rid of cats and you’ll never be able to have one ever
again.” Would the joyful faces still remain in the room?
The point of these silly examples is that if you take the color issue completely
out of context then there is nothing wrong with the new colors. If, on the
other hand, it means the elimination of the old colors (but you didn’t make that
clear to the people providing you with input) then you may have some flawed
data. Bad data in... bad data out. That never changes. So if the groups
didn’t fully understand the issues then the changes may be very risky.
2) Is it in any way possible that the color changes might be seen by some
consumers as a quality control issue?
Is there labelling on the packages? Are there inserts describing the change and
why it was made? If so, then this question is moot. If not, then what happens
when mom goes to put away Jane’s new LEGO and notices that some of the new
parts, when dumped into Jane’s LEGO collection, don’t look “quite right”? Will
mom’s trust of LEGO and it’s brand name continue to grow? If even a few
customers begin to see this as a quality issue then it is a very risky change in
my books. There are many reasons I buy LEGO bricks and not clone bricks but one
of the biggest reasons is quality. Am I the only one buying them for that
reason?
Those are the two questions I would ask... if I could send a message of any
kind.
| |
But I know that you don’t like this answer, so please use this opportunity
(as well as continuing to direct complaints and feedback through LEGO
Customer Service) as a way to have your voices heard.
|
I did that... and even responded to their responses. But by the time they’ve
sent you back the canned response a second time it becomes a rather
disheartening exercise. :(
| |
Again, we are not changing the colors back, and from what I know now, we
aren’t considering it.
|
But can you consider it? More importantly... *should* you consider it? LEGO is
sitting on a gold mine. That gold mine is your history and your reputation for
amazing quality products. If this change doesn’t substantially improve your
reputation and/or your products then you really need to ask, “is it worth the
risk”? Or is this a good way to cause the mine to cave in?
| |
Thanks in advance for your help!
|
I’ve probably offered more questions than help, but I hope you see the point I
was trying to make. But again, it it nice to be asked for input like this.
Thanks Jake!
All the best,
Allan B.
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Hello Jake,
Personally, I especially despise the new reddish brown, it doesn’t look brown at
all.
The new grays look OK, but I would still prefer it if the old grays were still
in production.
Regards
Stephane S.
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In lugnet.lego, Jake McKee wrote:
| |
But I know that you don’t like this answer, so please use this opportunity
(as well as continuing to direct complaints and feedback through LEGO
Customer Service) as a way to have your voices heard.
|
From my own point of view, there are a great many different shaped pieces and
most people have accumulated diverse collections in specific colors best suited
to their building interests.
To me a 2x4 brick in a new shade of gray is an opportunity. That opportunity is
however very restricted when all I have in the new color is a 2x2 brick and a
couple of plates to go with it.
New colors are fine, if and when the whole range of parts becomes available in
the new color.
JB
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Others have responsed to your post and have expressed similar concerns to
mine far more eloquently than I could, but I would just like to add three
points that sum up my views:
1. The change makes my collection of old grey 'obsolete'. Ignoring Bricklink
for a minute, I can never add to it. If I can't build something with the
parts I have, I will never be able to. New parts will never appear in old
greys. New greys can't be used in the same model as old ones because they
just don't match, and the new make the old look, well, 'old'.
2. The colour shift to the blue end of the spectrum does not look good
against white parts. I have only two 2004 models, one of which is the
Snowspeeder. In this set the dark grey of the guns makes the white wings
look yellowy. Old greys didn't do that because they themselves had yellow
tint. If LEGO are to continue along this route and stick with the new greys,
what will be next? The 'focus group' will be shown two different whites, the
old one and a new whiter-than-white one and I can guess which one they'll
prefer. Before we know it the whole palette will be changed 'for the
better'.
3. There are two constants of LEGO parts that should never be changed to
ensure future and backward compatibility: Brick geometry and colours. Parts
and themes can come and go, but until now those two constants have remained
unchanged ensuring that sets I buy for my child are compatible with parts
from sets I had as a child. Now, colours have been changed and
compatability has been lost.
I bought two sets before Christmas to see the colours for myself. By this
time of the year I have usually bought all the new sets, but not this year.
The change has put me right off, and despite some interesting set designs, I
won't be buying any more for the foreseeable future because they just are
not compatible with my existing collection.
Huw
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In lugnet.lego, Jake McKee wrote:
| |
I would ask that you reply to this thread with your thoughts and feelings
about the color issue, both for and against. One post per person, I would
think would make sense. I would ask that the debate be restricted to other
threads, and that all posts be rational, calm, and non-hateful. This will
ensure that I can more easily pass along the information, and that the
message isn’t bogged down in debate.
Jake
---
Jake McKee
Community Development Manager
LEGO Community Development
|
To Jake and the LEGO Company,
I do not mind the color changes. I realize that there are public reasons, which
have been stated, and private reasons for the change in colors and I have no
negative feelings toward this decision.
I personnally think that those that have a problem with the color change need an
education in the processes of major, global companies such as the LEGO Company.
There have been many posts on the color issue that have been negative and have
resulted in people suggesting that they will not purchase the newer LEGO
Products with the new colors. While it is important to note their constructive
opinions and reaction, ultimately you should chalk it up as over-reaction to a
small matter. Consider it making mountains out of a mole-hill.
My love of the brick harkens back to when there was only 5 colors; black, red,
white, yellow, and blue. Some of my original white bricks now appear as a
slightly discolored cream or slightly yellow. Part of my understanding is that
the change in light and dark gray is to stabilize the color over the life of the
brick. When looking at my “yellowed” white brick I fully support this decision
since I intend to keep my brick for a long time.
Through the years I have watched the LEGO Company add other colors. I do not
think I was ever more excited than when the TAN color arrived in the Egyptian
Adventurers Theme (or was it before). A close second to this moment was when I
first saw a Pick-A-Brick Wall at LEGO Imagination Center in Orlando, FL. There
were colors there that I only dreamed of.
The LEGO Company must make decisions that protect the LEGO Company and their
trademark for now and in the future. I understand that this might upset some of
us, but ultimately these decisions must be made. I am sorry that not everyone
understands this or that they are looking at the LEGO Company through “Rose
Colored Glasses” (I guess in this case it would be through “Old Light Grey Color
Glasses”), but they will get over it!
And thank you for keeping us aware of stuff going on in the company! I know that
is partly your job, but I am trying to think of a single American or
International Company that does this for their fans. Certainly no car company
does this opting instead for government mandated recalls whenever the problem
associated with a vehicle reaches a certain percentage of the vehicles on the
road. The LEGO Company is a model (no pun intended) for company relations with
the consumers of their products and I for one will be a life-long consumer.
Sincerely and respectfully to all,
Todd
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Thanks for asking us for our input. I know it’s pointless, but it allows us to
actually tell you about how the color change has affected us.
I have been receiving and purchasing LEGO products for 25 years. I got my first
Classic Space set when I was 4. Since then, I have amassed a collection of over
100 sets and 16000 pieces. While not a huge collection, I have always made an
effort to acquire some LEGO every year, through thick and thin. I ask for LEGO
for every birthday, Xmas, and wedding anniversary (much to the chagrin of my
wife, sometimes). Some of my light gray pieces are more yellow than gray now,
but still a welcome part of my collection, and still readily matchable with the
newer gray pieces.
That being said, I doubt very much whether I will acquire any sets in 2004.
It’s just not the same anymore. Nothing’s going to match. In order to increase
my collection and my skills as a builder, I will have to resort to the secondary
market for pieces.
But it’s not that the new grays look bad. By themselves, they look nice. But
if I were to add them to my current collection, it would make all I’ve worked
for and built up seem old and dirty. And besides, any pictures I’ve seen of the
new dark gray make it look more like a smoke blue, so I could argue that you’ve
discontinued any dark gray color altogether.
TLC is in financial trouble. No one wants them to go under. But if they
continue to make these inane decisions, there’s nothing that will stop their
collapse. Once AFOLs stop buying new and lose confidence in the company and
product, I doub’t reinstating the old grays a couple years down the road is
going to make them buy anything. What’s to stop TLC form changing again a year
or two later?
Use every means at your disposal to get the company to change the color back.
From what I understand, you’ve got a 6 month supply of new gray. Let it be the
last of it, and create some collector items down the road. I firmly belive
TLC’s future depends on a change back to the old, familiar grays.
Thank you for your time.
Michael Bosch
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Believe it or not, as outspoken as I sometimes am, this is my very first post on
the color issue, here and on other forums. I’ll word it so you’ll be able to
directly pass it on to colleagues/Billund.
Dear Lego,
I applaud the fact that you have come out with two new gray colors. Gray is a
very neutral color, and used extensively in many of my models. Unfortunately,
these colors were not a nice addition, but a replacement as I understand now. In
reaching this decision, some important counterproductive issues such decision
has may not have been acurately assessed.
When the first light grey was released, this was extatic news. Towns, and in
particular landscapes, got a much more real feeling to it. Add the addition of
the dark gray, green, brown, and more recently tan, and realistic landscaping
was now possible in Lego. This was not possible before, with basic yellow, blue,
red, white, and black. The neutrality of brown, greys, green and tan allows for
rocks, hills, fields, sand, concrete, etc. 90% of our surroundings exist in
grey/brown/green/tan. For years (decades actually), many adults AND kids have
embrased these “new” colors with passion, as they greatly add to their
creations. These “earthy” tones have become a big pillar of Lego building, for
young and old. Visit any show put on by adutls, and feel free to count the
grey/brown/green/tan versus the rest, you’ll see the volume of these colors
needed to make a layout work.
I can only assume that the person(s) ultimately responsible for doing away with
this pillar must have been very ill-informed about the consequences of
replacement versus addition strategy for the grey. The newer greys look too
metalic to be able to pass for road, concrete, or rock. As time passes, we may
get used to them, but if these is any way to keep the “old” grey in production,
this should be explored. Even if the basic change is irreversible, I am 99.99%
sure that bulk packs of the old grey (mainly basic bricks and plates, noting
fancy), will be a long-time best-seller. Even as little as 6 or so different
bulk packs (small, medium, and large bricks or plates) would remain top-sellers
for quite a while. I am rather sure continuous production of basic bricks and
plates in old light and old dark grey would be a wise decision, both socially,
and economically. In addition, until there is a significant amount of the newer
grey, I have heard from many that projects will be on hold for years. I myself
am in need of 50K+ old gray bricks, but with current supply and prices on the
aftermarket, I’ll pass. The money reserved for that project has meanwhile been
spend on tiles for our kitchen floor (and no, not the 2x2 ones Lego sells).
In summary, release bulk packs, AND convince the market that they will be
available for the intermediate-to-long run. If in a few years the demand of
these bulk packs diminished, re-evaluate the issue. This abrubt removal of a
pillar is a mistake in my opinion.
Paul Janssen
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| |
|
As a child, I was frustrated that dark grey pieces consisted of pick axes,
shovels, and castle helmets. Same for green trees and baseplates.
I like color. And in general I prefer cool tones to warm- so I’d say I like the
new greys. Will I miss the old greys? Sure, but I’m a color freak. I own the 128
crayon box. I want the new, bigger box with more colors.
In fact, Crayola had a really great color naming/choosing contest several years
ago. From what I’ve heard, it was a pretty big hit with the kids. M&M/Mars did
the same before introducing blue. A fan chosen color would be very popular.
I understand that with product development, there is more need for designer
control. Will the color be useful in future sets? Will it compliment or clash
with the existing colors. But like the Blacksmith’s shop, a fan chosen color
would increase sales on the basis of collectibility and a sense of connection
and familiarity.
Ultimately, I have chose LEGO as my meduim of building and creating because I
like the balance of limited pieces and colors with the unimaginable number of
combinations. If I really wanted the exact color for a sidewalk, blue jay, or
space alien- I’d get out my paints and mix the color, just as if there was a
shape not reproducible in LEGO bricks at my chosen scale, I would buy some
styrene, and cut, bend, vacu-form, and grind it until I had my shape.
The challenge and excitement is the unlimitied creativity stored inside the
plastic bricks of limited shape and color.
Aaron Sneary
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.lego, Jake McKee wrote:
| |
I would ask that you reply to this thread with your thoughts and feelings
about the color issue, both for and against.
|
I do not care for the new colors. If I say anything else I will violate your
“nicely” request.
JohnG, GMLTC
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Ditto. Anything that really needs to be said would not be said nicely, so I'll
leave it at:
The new dark grey is WAY too blue, and I will be buying VERY little retail Lego
this year in response. I'll be getting most of my Lego secondhand, cutting into
your profits.
I don't buy MB because it looks cheap. The new dark grey looks more like MB than
Lego.
John Gerlach wrote:
> In lugnet.lego, Jake McKee wrote:
> > I would ask that you reply to this thread with your thoughts and feelings
> > about the color issue, both for and against.
>
> I do not care for the new colors. If I say {anything} else I will violate your
> "nicely" request.
>
> JohnG, GMLTC
--
Tom Stangl
***http://www.vfaq.com/
***DSM Visual FAQ home
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
As I have not seen the new colours up close and personal, I cannot give a full
assessment. However, what concerns me is this - I don’t mind if LEGO introduces
new colours. New colours are fine, as long as we don’t expect to see down the
road a pallette of hundreds of colours. I am happy with having just a few
dozen.
What bothers me about this change, is that old colors are being dropped in
favour of new ones. That is where I have an issue. If they could keep the old
colors somehow, but also have the new ones, I would be happy. Possibly consider
using the new colours for select new themes, and then keeping the old colours
for other themes.
Dave
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| |
|
Jake,
Thanks for the “official” opportunity to be heard. I’ll spare you the history,
but suffice it to say that LEGO has been a part of my life for the past 34
years, and is one of the things that keeps me young.
I posted a poll on LUGnet about this issue. While not scientific, ballot-box
stuffing is extremely difficult. The results can be seen
here
While I fully understand the reasoning behind the new colors, I cannot
understand why the old ones need to “go away.” In my opinion, there is too
large of an “installed base” of the old colors to simply cease making LEGO
elements in those colors in favor of other, slightly different colors. All the
reasons have been fully articulated here on LUGnet (here are a few again):
1)
new and old colors won’t match,
2) expensive older collections will become
somewhat “obsolete” (especially when elements are phased in or out), requiring
purchasing lots of new (or old) colors
3) those not “in the know,” when
combining sets for MOCs, will see the color mismatch and see it as a
quality-control issue, and frankly, LEGO is too pricey to have color
quality-control issues
There are more opinions, but I think these are the ones espoused by most AFOLs
here.
Now, I can assume that LEGO could anticipate these issues. After all, LEGO
employees can assumed to be collectors, and market research should have given
you a clue to # 3 above. So, a somewhat cynical AFOL, who realizes that things
are never as they seem, can speculate thusly about the color change:
1) LEGO
doesn’t really care about AFOLs and their expensive, extensive collections,
making this color change on a whim; and/or
2) LEGO somehow has no choice in
making the color change. Something about the manufacturing process,
environmental regulations, or other unspoken (to the AFOL community, at least)
factor forces LEGO to make the change; and/or
3) The new colors closely
approximate a clone brand, and LEGO is making the change because market research
says kids want to mix their LEGO and clone brand bricks. and/or
4) LEGO is
making the change so they can charge a premium for “classic” colors in bulk in a
year or so.
My personal (very cynical) “take” on the situation is that the new colors are
for the “consumer” market only. There are elements avaliable to LEGO company
model builders that the general public just can’t get (in any quantity), and I
don’t think we’ll see new models at LEGOland parks, road shows, etc, made
exclusively of the “new” greys, ever. Which leads me back to conclusion #1
above - LEGO just doesn’t care about AFOLs and their collections.
Simply put, unless there is some physical or legal factor making production of
the “old” colors impossible, I don’t think you’ll ever convince hard-core AFOLs
that this was a good idea.
Thanks for listening,
James Wilson
Dallas, TX
LUGnet Member #1783, fan of The Brick since 1970
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| |
|
1/15/04
To The LEGO Company:
Thanks for addressing this publically. I really hope what we have to
say doesn't fall on deaf ears. As a consumer, I have a choice on what
I pay for, and right now I don't feel as though The LEGO Company's
latest products are where I want my disposable income to go.
According to LEGO, AFOLs only account for 1% of sales. I don't believe
this is correct because we buy LEGO toys not only for ourselves, but for
our children, younger siblings, and other children (such as nieces and
nephews).
I absolutely hate the color change. First of all, you're changing gray,
dark gray, and brown because they are not bright enough. That makes no
sense whatsoever. Sell sets with brighter colors like red, yellow, blue,
green, and white instead then.
I have no problem if you want to add in new colors, but taking away old
colors--especially without any warning--is a good way to scare away
long-time customers like myself.
Regarding the color change, I couldn't tell you how upset I was about
the whole thing. It was enough to change my mind about doing any building
as of recently (although I will be building again soon), and enough to
change my mind on not competing for the master builder competition.
I don't want to work for a company that makes marketing decisions that
can continue to destroy their core values--whether it's a dream job or
not. I've already dealt with enough of that working for some of my
previous employers, and I would not like to repeat that experience.
If LEGO decides to keep manufacturing the old colors, this letter would
not have needed to be written. It's sad to see that LEGO had to resort
to color changes to try to improve sales. Where, in fact, it will probably
do the opposite.
I really hope that LEGO's recent management change will help them not
make mistakes like this in the future.
Sincereley,
-Anne Henmi
--
I always said I wanted to be (\`--/') _ _______ .-r-.
somebody. Perhaps I should >.~.\ `` ` `,`,`. ,'_'~`.
have been more specific. (v_," ; `,-\ ; : ; \/,-~) \
stripes at tigerlair dot com `--'_..),-/ ' ' '_.>-' )`.`.__.')
stripes at brickbox dot com ((,((,__..'~~~~~~((,__..' `-..-'fL
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
I do not own any of the new colors, but one of my friends do, so I have seen
them first hand. First off, I am annoyed at the REPLACEMENT of colors, due to
the fact I have just about built up enough Dark Gray and Brown to build an
entire creation in one of those colors. However, I will not stop buying LEGO
just because of a color change.
IF, as many people have already said, these four colors were additional colors
instead of replacement colors, I would have nothing to complain about.
All in all, it comes down to this; If you change the colors back, I will still
buy LEGO. If you keep the replacement colors, I will still buy LEGO. If you
add the colors to the palette as additional colors, I will still buy LEGO.
Whatever decision LEGO makes, I’m for it.
Nathan Wells
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I like the introduction of new colors (light yellow, sand colors, dark red), but
to replace colors is something else. As far as I know, LEGO has only
discontinued one color in the past (Maersk blue) and that is solely because it
was a promotional color only available to a limited audience, so it is to be
expected somewhat. I agree with other AFOLs that the logic behind this change
seems illogical, especially for a company that is reknowned with quality and
COMPATIBILITY. I would say that I have a lot of the greys, but to have to fight
other AFOLs for the now limited supply makes me not want to buy LEGO at all
right now. Brown has not been a color people have felt passionately enough about
to defend, but the new brown is just not as bright and LEGO-like as the old.I
beg that the company stick with tradtion during this restructure and find that
decisions such as this one were not the most well thought out plans.
Jeramy Spurgeon
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| |
|
"Jeramy Spurgeon" <beatnik303@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:HrJF80.7xE@lugnet.com...
> I like the introduction of new colors (light yellow, sand colors, dark • red), but
> to replace colors is something else. As far as I know, LEGO has only
> discontinued one color in the past (Maersk blue) and that is solely • because it
> was a promotional color only available to a limited audience, so it is to • be
> expected somewhat. I agree with other AFOLs that the logic behind this • change
> seems illogical, especially for a company that is reknowned with quality • and
> COMPATIBILITY. I would say that I have a lot of the greys, but to have to • fight
> other AFOLs for the now limited supply makes me not want to buy LEGO at • all
> right now. Brown has not been a color people have felt passionately enough • about
> to defend, but the new brown is just not as bright and LEGO-like as the • old.I
> beg that the company stick with tradtion during this restructure and find • that
> decisions such as this one were not the most well thought out plans.
>
> Jeramy Spurgeon
IMHO the discontinuation of Maersk blue is no different than the change of
color to the greys. If you place a Maersk blue brick next to a medium blue
brick (the light blue color found in the Creator sets), you will notice how
"yellowed" the Maersk blue brick is (even if it is brand new). You simply
can't use the same two colors adjacent to one another in a MOC, it doesn't
look right.
I believe the reason this hasn't been discussed is because very few people
have much Maersk blue to speak of. The results was the introduction of
medium blue was viewed as a new color and not a change to the original light
blue (aka Maersk blue due to it's appearance in Maersk promotional sets).
It is entirely possible that medium blue was the first of the color changes.
Mike
--
Mike Walsh - mike_walsh at mindspring.com
http://www.ncltc.cc - North Carolina LEGO Train Club
http://www.carolinatrainbuilders.com - Carolina Train Builders
http://www.bricklink.com/store.asp?p=mpw - CTB/Brick Depot
For
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
I have two main concerns with the color change.
1. The brown bothers me more than the greys. Brown needs to look like wood for
so many creations and themes (Castle, Pirates, and Wild West, just to name a
few). Even though I tend to be a historical builder, which means my greys tend
to be used as stone and not metal, the new grey doesn’t bother me. Stone
construction should look mottled and have variations, so I can work the new
colors in that way. Reddish-brown really dosen’t work as wood though.
2. The once concern I have about the greys are the Harry Potter sets. The new
classrooms and other Hogwart’s sets are going to look off sitting inside my
Hogwarts castle that’s made out of the old greys. Is this why LEGO has decided
to repackage and rerelease Hogwarts this year, so fans can have a Hogwarts with
the new colors?
Jason
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| |
|
I've already addressed why I don't believe the reason given for the
new colors, so I won't get into that here. However...
My wife is going be very happy this year as a direct result of the new
colors, because I'll be buying much less new lego. For several years
now I've been spending way too much money on it. Why? Because the
kids and I like to build the models. Then they play with them and
eventually they fall apart. But this is OK because they're legos.
The good stuff. The pieces eventually make their way into bins sorted
by color, or into new creations that are just as fun to play with as
the original sets. In fact, this is so much fun that I got into the
habbit of buying multiple copies of sets just for the extra parts, to
add onto the models, or build something else that plays well with the
sets. Starting in 2004 I no longer have any reason to do that. My
wife will thank you.
Believe me, we tried a megablock set or two and were extremely
disappointed. The kids can spot a megablock in a pile of the good
stuff by the slightly off color. It goes straight into the trash.
The new colored bricks are the megablocks of the future. Since the
colors don't match, they might as well be megablocks. Oh, we'll buy
a few sets that catch our fancy, but when they come apart, the off
colored bits will go into the reject pile. And hey, since megablocks
are so much cheaper, and we're buying sets with reject bricks anyhow,
we might as well be buying megablocks. I'll save even more money.
And so while I'm disappointed with the color change, there is a
silver lining, and it's in my wallet.
Don
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| |
|
Jake McKee wrote:
> It's only a couple of weeks in the new year, and it looks like it's going to be
> an interesting 2004!
>
> I have a request, but before I go any further, let me say that personally, I
> understand the concerns surrounding the color changes. I know many of you think
> of me as a marketer here to shill products. I'm an AFOL too with a healthy
> collection of light and dark gray, so I can understand your concerns.
>
> As both my duty as the Community Development Manager, and as an AFOL, I'm
> interested in helping to make sure that the LEGO Company fully understands the
> issues you have as well. I'm looking for your help to deliver the message. To be
> totally clear, this is me asking in order to have answers ready if and when my
> colleagues ask.
>
> I would ask that you reply to this thread with your thoughts and feelings about
> the color issue, both for and against. One post per person, I would think would
> make sense. I would ask that the debate be restricted to other threads, and that
> all posts be rational, calm, and non-hateful. This will ensure that I can more
> easily pass along the information, and that the message isn't bogged down in
> debate.
>
> Please understand that this is simply a fact/feeling/thought finding mission,
> and does not mean that the decision to change colors is going to be changed.
> Many of you have asked for the latest status information. There is nothing new
> to report at this point. The color change is proceeding as planned, and sets are
> rolling (and have already rolled) off the line with the new colors.
>
> But I know that you don't like this answer, so please use this opportunity (as
> well as continuing to direct complaints and feedback through LEGO Customer
> Service) as a way to have your voices heard.
>
> Again, we are not changing the colors back, and from what I know now, we aren’t
> considering it. This is an information gathering mission only.
>
> Thanks in advance for your help!
>
> Jake
>
> ---¬
> Jake McKee¬
> Community Development Manager¬
> LEGO Community Development
> ¬
Jake, thanks for giving us the opportunity to be heard.
Honestly, at first I didn't care about the color change because I didn't
think it would be a big deal, but now I am concerned. I don't buy LEGO
at the same pace as some of the people around here, and that is why I am
concerned.
Last year, I was given a Super Chief engine (along with a lot of other
LEGO) as a gift. This year I was given a Mail/Baggage car as a gift, and
of course the colors match. I modified the two sets using some of my
other LEGO, and, with the exception of some seveteen-year-old slightly
yellowed gray bricks hidden in the intereior of the model, those bricks
match too. Since my LEGO store is out of Super Chief coaches I am
waiting for more coaches to arive. But my excitement about buying and
modifying those models is tempered by the concern that they won't match,
and I'll wind up with a sloppy looking train.
From a broader perspective, I worry that consumers who are not "in the
know" will simply think that the quality of LEGO bricks has declined
because, after all, the grays and browns in this set don't match the
grays and browns in the sets we already have. I wonder which is worse,
damaging the brand by allowing people to think that quality is slipping
because the colors don't match or advertizing on the box that proclaims
that the box contains "new and improved, brighter, more vibrant gray
bricks!"
Sometimes it is hard being an AFOL. Many of us feel the need to jump to
the defense of LEGO. When we hear, "LEGO is so much more exspensive than
it used to be." We often point out that it isn't, LEGO has never been a
_cheap_ (in the bad sense) toy, there are probably more inexspensive
ways to get LEGO now than there were in the old days, and, in the end,
you get what you pay for. When we hear whining about the loss of the
basic LEGO building brick, we jump in and point out that every large toy
store sells buckets of bricks and the consumer can actually buy a lot of
different bricks directly from LEGO. Our pride in our obsession to LEGO
stems from LEGO's quality. Any decrease in quality or preceived decrease
in quality makes it that much harder to stand in the toy isle and assure
a curious parent that for kid who loke to build, LEGO is worth every penny.
Chris
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
Please understand that this is simply a fact/feeling/thought finding mission,
and does not mean that the decision to change colors is going to be changed.
|
Is there even a realistic chance of change? I read the other day that TLC had
sold ~1,000,000
Hogwarts Castle sets; that made me realise how small the AFOL market really is.
This, together with new “vibrant” greys hitting the shelves, has left me feeling
pretty sceptical about TLC’s involvement with LUGNET.
Do you remember how we found out about the new grey s?
Scott A
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| |
|
This one time, Scott A wrote:
> Is there even a realistic chance of change? I read the other day that TLC had
> sold <http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/01/01/1072908848993.html ~1,000,000>
> Hogwarts Castle sets; that made me realise how small the AFOL market really is.
> This, together with new "vibrant" greys hitting the shelves, has left me feeling
> pretty sceptical about TLC's involvement with LUGNET.
Understandable. I feel the same way, especially since I have had no replies
from TLC to customer service regarding the color change.
> Do you remember how we found out about the new grey s?
Didn't someone post a photo to LUGNET? I remember Jake saying something
in defense, but I dont' remember him "officially" notifying us until after
the change was done.
-Anne
--
I always said I wanted to be (\`--/') _ _______ .-r-.
somebody. Perhaps I should >.~.\ `` ` `,`,`. ,'_'~`.
have been more specific. (v_," ; `,-\ ; : ; \/,-~) \
stripes at tigerlair dot com `--'_..),-/ ' ' '_.>-' )`.`.__.')
stripes at brickbox dot com ((,((,__..'~~~~~~((,__..' `-..-'fL
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
After hearing about the color change, I decided not to pass judgement until I
actually saw the new colors.
Well, I have bought several of the new WorldCity sets (great models!), so I do
know the two new greys.
And... I realy like them! They have a less “dirty” look to them. Okay, the dark
grey has a blue-ish look, but it works well on the models (two foreboats and one
yellow helicopter). The light grey looks to me like the just-new color that my
Classic Space sets (used to) have. :-)
Oh and before people start about “but my investments in the old grey ...”, check
out MY inventory (Lugnet member #64), which does not include the several
hundreds of bags of grey 2x4’s. I do have several cubic meters of grey LEGO. And
I will add several more before I reach my goal (to have as much LEGO as Legoland
Denmark)
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
What do I think about the new colors? Hmm...
I think the first thing I thought of is one of the reasons I actually
end up rejecting Mega Bloks. It seems that every time they introduce a
new theme, the parts in that theme are entirely incompatible with the
previous theme. Brand new colors. New styles of figurines. New styles of
parts.
With the introduction of the sand colors, I was starting to feel LEGO
was going in this direction. Now the rate of new colors seems to be
accelerating. While new colors appear to expand the palette, they really
don't as much as we might think. To be able to build a variety of
designs, there is probably a minimum palette of something like a couple
hundred different pieces. Without enough piece variety, what you can do
with the new color is extremely limiting. Of course this is not a
limiting factor for LEGO sets since the designers can influence the
available palette of pieces in a given color.
Another thing this change makes me wonder is what color next? Will
tomorrows red change?
As many have mentioned, the color change is probably going to affect my
purchases. I've been needing to exercise more budget control, and this
seems like a good time to do it. I will be looking at each set very
carefully to decide what I will get out of it since at least for a
while, I will not have enough of the new greys to really do much.
Frank
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Hello!
The new grey coloures may be cool.
But I like warm colours better.
Bye
Jojo
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Hello!
The new grey coloures may be cool.
But I like warm colours better.
The world is cold enough, so why does LEGO even enhance the chill by producing
such unnatural and unfriendly colours?
(Sorry for answering my own post!)
Bye
Jojo
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Jake,
You are a brave soul. I was going to stay out of this issue, however after
seeing the colors in person I have one thought.
THESE NEW GRAY COLORS ARE MEGABLOCK COLORS! I have refrained from making
this statement in the past weeks. We have an abundance of the Megablock gray
(much to my dismay) due to my kids attraction to the dragon sets (the beasts
are very cool), Alien and now the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle sets.
Why not expand the colors list and use both colors in sets, this could
enhance the sets Lego produces.
--
Rosemary Regner, PE
R Squared Digital Media
rose@r2dm.com
www.r2dm.com
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
I’ve just got a small amount of the new grey’s in the Imperial Shuttle.
Whilst the both colors are fine as part colors, and could be usefull in some
models, i feel that i much prefer the origional grey bricks as general parts.
The old grey is much more flexable for for use in different types of model.
Richard
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.lego, Jake McKee wrote:
| |
It’s only a couple of weeks in the new year, and it looks like it’s going to
be an interesting 2004!
I have a request, but before I go any further, let me say that personally, I
understand the concerns surrounding the color changes. I know many of you
think of me as a marketer here to shill products. I’m an AFOL too with a
healthy collection of light and dark gray, so I can understand your concerns.
As both my duty as the Community Development Manager, and as an AFOL, I’m
interested in helping to make sure that the LEGO Company fully understands
the issues you have as well. I’m looking for your help to deliver the
message. To be totally clear, this is me asking in order to have answers
ready if and when my colleagues ask.
I would ask that you reply to this thread with your thoughts and feelings
about the color issue, both for and against. One post per person, I would
think would make sense. I would ask that the debate be restricted to other
threads, and that all posts be rational, calm, and non-hateful. This will
ensure that I can more easily pass along the information, and that the
message isn’t bogged down in debate.
Please understand that this is simply a fact/feeling/thought finding mission,
and does not mean that the decision to change colors is going to be changed.
Many of you have asked for the latest status information. There is nothing
new to report at this point. The color change is proceeding as planned, and
sets are rolling (and have already rolled) off the line with the new colors.
But I know that you don’t like this answer, so please use this opportunity
(as well as continuing to direct complaints and feedback through LEGO
Customer Service) as a way to have your voices heard.
Again, we are not changing the colors back, and from what I know now, we
aren’t considering it. This is an information gathering mission only.
Thanks in advance for your help!
Jake
---
Jake McKee
Community Development Manager
LEGO Community Development
|
I know Lego’s mission is to sell new sets, so I won’t go into compatability with
old colors. The new dark grey looks too cold and boring to me. The original
had a nice warmth to it that made it mix nicely with the other colors. I
haven’t seen the new brown in person, but it was perfect as-is, it was excellent
for wood.
BTW, If the goal was to produce more crisp, exciting colors, then why is tan so
bland? I feel it always needed a bit more yellow or red for some more warmth.
Thanks,
Gary
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
Well, I have been thinking about my opinion on the color change for awhile. I
recently bought some of the 2004 sets, so I could see what the fuss was about.
My concerns are the following:
- My collection is large, so it naturally has a lot of grey. However, even when it was small (before I started buying as an adult) it contained mostly grey. (I was a classic space kid.) This change really poses a compatability problem with my current collection. Also, as a partent, I am concerned that my children’s collections and models won’t mix well with my own.
- My train track is dark grey. I only recently began using Lego trains, as the desire came when I was introduced to Lego train clubs as an adult. I only have about 1/4 of the total track that I imagine that I want. I was going to buy it slowly. The new dark grey is quite a bit out of line from the old, and that makes the track incompatible.
- The old colors were better for realistic models. The world is muddy. I like to build models that look like real things. Sure kids under 5 are attracted to bright colors, but as they get older they are more intereted in real things. The new colors are actually less earth toned, which was great for making trees, buildings, or anything with a natural color scheme.
- Even as a kid, I could never really build models that were “color blind”--meaning I got the shape right, thoa it may look like a rainbow. I wanted the color scheme of my creations to look good, also. I suspect others feel the same way, or TLG wouldn’t have made this change. Now it will be difficult to do this with grey in either old or new. Old will have the problem of looking bad when mixed with new. New will have the problem of not having enough pieces (in enough quantities) to be useful.
- This change was made without any fanfare, or consulation with the consumers, or even (it seems) any consultation with those in the TLG who are knowledgeable about the consumers. This was done in a sneaky way, and so it doesn’t seem to have the intent of an “improvement.” If this were any other company, I would say, “so what? they don’t have to tell us anything.” And in fact, you don’t have to. But TLG has built a very trusting and open relationship with its fans and consumers, so this act seems very out of character and disturbing. Quite honestly, the explanation of “fixing the color palate” feels false--as if it were a rationalization for some other decision.
I have a few theories on the real reason TLG changed colors:
- there was a manufacturing need. Someone suggested that it may have to do with how Lego recycles ABS into new brick. This was purely speculation, I believe, but it sounds plausible. If Lego is saving money by changing colors, I can understand why it did so, but I think it is a mistake, as I think ultimately, it will create problems.
- there was a marketing consideration of the competition. Some have suggested that the new color looks more like MEGAbloks. I am not sure if it does, or it they are just seeing MEGAbloks becuase they are angry. However, it is a plausible theory that someone decided that the color palate of the competitors is helping their sales.
- it is possible that the color change was made for just the reasons stated, but for a particular segment not represented on Lugnet. What I am thinking of is Bionicle. The more I think about it, the more these colors fit with the Bionicle materials, and in the Bionicle world. This again is pure speculation, but it would make sense for the company to do it, if it felt it would boost sales of an already popular line. If I were them, I might put more weight on the biggest seller, when making such decions.
Anyway, the real point to the speculations is to say, we feel like we haven’t
gotten the whole story. I am sure we never will, but then that will just fuel
more speculation and discontent.
I, for one, hopes Lego realizes that they have made a mistake, and reverts back
to the old colors. I am not sure how this will affect my buying habits, but I
suppose I may abandon the train line, which would be sad. I had decided long
ago to buy all the Star Wars lego sets, and I will stick to that, but actually,
I felt relieved the other day when the rumour was that Lego Star Wars was going
to end. (Of course, we learned it wasn’t!) I most likely will be buying far
more aftermarket Lego than new Lego in the future, and that is sad, too.
-Alfred
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In lugnet.lego, Jake McKee wrote:
| |
It’s only a couple of weeks in the new year, and it looks like it’s going to
be an interesting 2004!
|
Yup, I am really excited about some of the new sets. Namely, that new Harry
Potter shack, looks very good as a source of house parts.
| |
Please understand that this is simply a fact/feeling/thought finding mission,
and does not mean that the decision to change colors is going to be changed.
Many of you have asked for the latest status information. There is nothing
new to report at this point. The color change is proceeding as planned, and
sets are rolling (and have already rolled) off the line with the new colors.
But I know that you don’t like this answer, so please use this opportunity
(as well as continuing to direct complaints and feedback through LEGO
Customer Service) as a way to have your voices heard.
Again, we are not changing the colors back, and from what I know now, we
aren’t considering it. This is an information gathering mission only.
Thanks in advance for your help!
|
Well, here’s my tiny little input on the matter of new colours:
I don’t hate them. In fact, I think there is room for the new grays - in space,
for instance, I don’t think they look bad at all.
But discontinuing colors? I’m not sure if I like that. Like many have said
before me, backwards compatibility is compromised once we’re no longer able to
use the older shades of gray. Sure, we can use new and old gray alongside - but
it just doesn’t look good to have mettallic gray in a castle wall. This means my
(our?) willingness to spend more in new LEGO is reduced, knowing that it will be
harder to mix it with the older parts in an aesthetically pleasant way.
Not to mention the “regular” consumer will probably perceive this colour change
as a loss of quality control - LEGO’s reputation is at stake.
So, cutting a long answer short: please don’t “dump” the old colours, they have
a place along the newer ones. Honest, they do.
Pedro
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I see the new colours that are only slightly different from the old one
introduce major headache to all AFOL, and kids. This include the new greys,
light yellow and three new oranges.
Say this kid build a plane, and notice the right wing colour is different from
the left because a wing piece have a slightly different grey. He may dig deep
into his plate (or all grey) bucket for the right piece, and found it 30 minutes
later after colour matching all the grey-ish wing plates. Or he may search
around a bit, realize it is a major chore after 5 minutes and go back to play
video games.
Or let’s say this kid accumulated enough old and new grey and realize he need to
sort them separately, he may find that this kind of slow sorting is such a chore
he put them all back into the tub and go back to his, you know, video games!
Console games has been taking market share from PC games largely due to ease of
use. Why do LEGO want to make bulding MOC significantly more difficult? Yeah
the new colours are fine if your customer only put the set together and let it
collect dust. But kids and adults now need to go through the chore of colour
matching if they want to make MOC through mixed sets, i.e. that “core”, “What
will you make?” thing that LEGO say it’s focusing on.
So, LEGO please if you are serious about this “core” thing, stop making new
colour in all visible spectrum and focus on things that encourage kids mix sets
to build their own creation.
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Hi Jake-
I usually do not have a vocal presence on LUGNET, but I feel that this is an
excellent opportunity to express an opinion of this change.
I personally don’t mind the new colors as an ADDITION to the existing and
ever-growing color palette. A growing and diverse product is good for a growing
and diverse market. However, considering that LEGO is REPLACING the old
“original” colors is quite, and considerably, unsettling to me.
I still do not fully understand the procedure for replacing the existing grey
colors in pre-2004 production sets. Can you elaborate more on this, or point me
in the right direction? Will pre-2004 sets that are to continue in the
production line get the new colors, yes? If so, I’m discouraged by this notion.
Here’s an example of why I am discouraged:
I purchased a 10022 Santa Fe Car Set II for this past Christmas 2003. I only
purchased one, however I plan to purchase multiples of this set, and multiples
of the 10021 Santa Fe Car Set I.
Will I have mismatched sets? If so, as a consumer, all I can say is...Yikes -
Mismatched sets?...Ugh.
Upon discovering the color changes, the Pacific Northwest LEGO Train Club
(PNLTC) took several informal (and unbiased) polls at our events, this year, to
see what the reaction of the “typical” LEGO consumer would have to say about the
color change. I say “typical”, because approximately 60-70% of our
audience/spectators are 1) kids who purchase, collect and build with LEGO
bricks; and 2) parents/adults who facilitate their own LEGO hobby, or their
kids’/relatives’/friends’ LEGO hobby.
The overall reactions from the LEGO enthusiasts, child and adult, were pretty
interesting and quite unprecedented:
- “Why are they (LEGO) changing colors?”
- “Does this mean that our LEGO bricks will not match the old sets from the new?”
- “More colors, changing colors?...They already have too many specialty pieces!”
- “I’ve invested hundreds, possibly thousands of dollars, to find out that greys will not match?”
Etc. Etc.
In summary, the poll results were, unfortunately, overall negative.
Bottom line is that the change has been made, and there is not much we can do
about it now. I understand LEGO may have invested a lot of resources to make
this change, and financially, it would be irresponsible to go back this soon.
In summary: I personally have a very large and growing LEGO collection, and feel
that an ADDITION to the color palette is good. However, I’m very sorry to say
that I cannot endorse a color REPLACEMENT to the existing product line.
One question for you is, “Did LEGO not inquire it’s market base consumers
(i.e.- kids, parents, AFOLs) about the color change, in order to make the
“right” decision?”
Jake, thank you for being so supportive of the AFOL community, and those who are
so passionate of the LEGO system, and we certainly appreciate your efforts! I
hope all is well in LEGOLAND. :-)
Very Truly Yours,
Jeremy Rear
PNLTC Member Since 1998, LUGNET/RTL Lurker Since 1996
Please Visit: http://www.pnltc.org
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Hi Jake,
Thanks for getting our feedback.
New colors are great, but I think a core color change is a mistake.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t the ingenious idea of the LEGO company to get
people to buy bricks, and then buy more bricks to add to their collection to
build bigger and better things. That, in my opinion, is what makes the concept
of the LEGO element so great.
If you collect hotwheels cars, you just keep getting more hotwheels cars as you
collect. You might get a bigger collection, but you can’t do anything better
with it. I beleive that being able to make bigger and better creations is what
gets people hooked on the LEGO product. Some even into their adult years :)
Well, LEGO has now stifled the attempts of its customers who are trying to build
up a collection of light grey, dark grey, and brown. The only people I feel this
change could possibly ‘help’ build a collection are those who have never
purchased a brick (only potential customers) and those who have more brick than
they know what to do with (not many people).
James Brink
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In lugnet.lego, Jake McKee wrote:
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Thanks in advance for your help!
Jake
|
I’ll begin by saying “Thanks for letting me.”
In nice wording, the color change is a rather unwise move and I hope will be
corrected.
Change is something we’ve (both LUGNET and general public) been reading about of
lately. Many of us here have seen reports from the media concerning the LEGO
Co. market performance and the changes in the higher eschelons of the LEGO Co.
In particular was a quote by Kjeld Kirk Kristiansen:
“In our efforts to follow the trend, we forgot about our traditional, basic
products -- the plastic building bricks -- ...”
In my view, the replacement of light grey and dark grey shades is an example of
forgetting “... about our traditional, basic products ...”. The color change
is not following the ideology to return to tradition.
Most here on LUGNET know my feeling of this color change but to those in the
LEGO Co. (other than Jake) who are reading this I think the color change is an
act of stupidity. My reasons are the same as many others here who have posted
their reasons of displeasure with the color change.
Will I buy 2004 sets with the new grays? Most likely not.
Adrian Egli
LUGNET member #806
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<snip>
Jake,
Thanks for actively bringing up this topic.
When I heard that colors were being replaced, it was like a punch in the
stomach for me. I have been a LEGO fan, collector, builder, and proponent
for much of my life. (I am 26, and have been building for 23 years, with no
"dark ages.")
When I have been building my own creations, if a particular piece wasn't
available in a particular color, there used to exist the hope that it may be
released in a future set. This hope started to fade when the 1 x 5 and 4 x
5 plate hinges were replaced with click-hinges. Now this hope has
completely disappeared, at least for the old light gray, dark gray, brown,
and whatever other colors have been replaced. For instance, I had really
been hoping that LEGO would release a certain type of hinge piece in brown,
and now, unless LEGO reverses the color change, that hope is gone. The same
applies to new pieces as well.
The issue of quality control has been brought up be several people, and I
agree that it is a serious one. The LEGO company has had, over the years, a
good reputation for quality control, and the replacement of the colors in
question will only hurt that reputation. It matters not whether it was an
intentional or unintentional change; the perception of quality has suffered.
How about Legends? In my mind, any Legend set released with the new colors
will not be worth buying.
Again, thanks for your willingness to ask for feedback on this subject.
However, I feel like writing this letter has been an exercise in futility,
due to this paragraph of yours: "Again, we are not changing the colors back,
and from what I know now, we aren't considering it. This is an information
gathering mission only." I will be voicing these same concerns to Customer
Service, but I would like to take it one step further, if possible. Would
you be able to provide contact information (either an e-mail or snail-mail
address) for someone higher up in management? I would like to send a letter
to the place where it will do the most good, and have the most chance
(however slim it may be) of reversing this change.
-Joel
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I wasn’t going to get involved with this, as I didn’t want to get caught up in
the debates. Thanks for the chance to state an opinion without all the noise.
As a parent, I have to say that the replacing of the colors doesn’t make any
sense to me. My daughter have never once said “Daddy, I don’t want to play with
those icky colors.” She doesn’t looks for sets because of the colors, she looks
for sets that she can play with. She owns most of the Harry Potter sets, which
are primarily grey, brown, and tan. Will she notice the color change if I buy
her a new set? Probably not. She just wants to play. That’s what kids do.
From my point of view, and again speaking as a parent, if I wasn’t involved with
Lugnet, I wouldn’t have been aware of the color change until I had purchased a
set. I would have opened up the set, and assumed that there was a quality issue
with some of the bricks as they didn’t match the other sets. It probably would
have taken me some time, most likely a matter of months, before I realized that
it wasn’t a quality issue, but a complete change. So, like others have said,
the Marketing explanation doesn’t really make sense, as I wouldn’t have changed
my buying habits as a result of the color change. My daughter would still want
me to buy sets she could play with, no matter what color grey or brown was in
it.
Now, as an AFOL, the color change is just annoying. I have a small collection
compared to most here, but it’s still worth a few thousand dollars. Much of
that collection is grey. Can I still use them? Absolutely. But how long will
it take me to obtain a collection of “new” greys in the same quantity that I
have now, so that the larger MOCs that I’ve been thinking about will look nice?
At this point, probably a couple of years. I know for sure that the mosaic that
I had wanted to build this year will now have to wait indefinately, as it would
require several thousand bricks, all of which are either grey, brown, black or
white.
So, has the color change affected my buying habits as a parent? Nope.
Has the color change affected my buing habits as an AFOL? Yes.
Others have stated that the AFOL community is 1% or so of the market-share.
Given that number, and using me as a sampling (granted it’s a *very* small
sampling), Lego has negatively impacted 1% of their market share, and had
utterly no effect on the other 99%. Hopefully the color change didn’t cost
much, because the return on investment seems pretty low.
-Elroy
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I myself haven’t bought any of the new sets for 2004 yet, nor have I personally
seen the new colored bricks. Until I get some of my own to judge, I have to say
that I do not support the changes. Over the last few years, I have amassed quite
a bit of both light and dark grey elements and I really like the dullness of the
dark grey. Change the themes, change the sets, just don’t chnage the bricks!!
Dan
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Adding new colors is a good thing, in my option, but that’s not what’s happened
here. AFOL’s argue about new colors, but the worst case scenario is that hated
new colors can be ignored (placed in a storage bin and never used), or they can
be sold to other AFOL’s.
However, what Lego has done this time is far worse. Lego has taken away the
original colors. There may be a “replacement” color, but that replacement is
really a new color. It will never match the original colors.
To summarize, new pieces and colors are good and encourage people to buy new
sets. Taking away pieces is not so good and encourages people to buy used
pieces from others. Taking away colors is very bad, and I’m unsure what to do
about it as I’m sure some older pieces of mine won’t be made in the new colors.
:-(
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Jake & All,
Thanks for the opportunity to give you some feedback. I know this is a delicate
issue, as I have heard from various AFOL's from "Don't buy LEGO products" to
letter campaigns to others, and I have read the responses so far in this thread,
so there are a lot of thoughts circulating.
As for me, I have been collecting LEGO products since I was 4, so I have been a
customer for about 25 years now. My LEGO collection has grown by about 5 times
since I discovered LUGNET back in 1998, and have joined and formed LUG'S and
LTC's. Most of my LEGO projects these days involve large building projects, from
train stations to yards to moonbases. I was rather surprised when I discovered
that the colors were changed.
My Brickshelf folder:
http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?m=ssanburn
I honestly have mixed thoughts about the color changes, I am disappointed that
some key and useful building colors in multiple themes have been changed. The
new colors such as light gray is all right, the dark gray is pretty bad, and the
brown is just icky. That's my opinion on the color change. As I look at the new
colors in the set I have in my desk, the MINI Imerial Star Destroyer, my thoghts
are still the same.
My biggest concern I have had over the last few years is the inability to get
parts in the newer colors. An example would be the dark red that is used on the
7113, the Tusken Raider Encounter Set. It is hard to use that color since it is
scattered throughout a few sets, and buying multiples of plate slopes to use in
buildings is just silly. Other examples would be lime green, light blue, light
yellow, etc. While I understand the concept of using what you have, it is still
frustrating not to be able to get the parts in the first place.
My thoughts on new colors would not be as harsh if there were standard packs of
parts in each color that TLC produces. Even if a color such as dark gray would
be changed, at least you could have a few packs of parts that would be available
in the new color.
Here are some of my thoughts on these packs:
Bricks
1x pack (1x1, 1x2, 1x3, 1x4, 1x6, 1x8, 1x10, 1x12, 1x16)
2x pack (2x2, 2x3, 2x4, 2x6, 2x8, 2x10, 2x12)
Plates
1x - 1x1, 1x2, 1x3, 1x4, 1x6, 1x8, 1x10, 1x12
2x - 2x2, 2x3, 2x4, 2x6, 2x8, 2x10, 2x12, 2x16
Slopes
12D Pack, 33D, 45D, etc.
Tiles
1x pack
2x pack
Curved Parts
etc.
I have heard that it is hard to produce many sets anymore, since the limitations
of the UPC codes, but prehaps if TLC starts to ferret out unprofitable parts of
their business, maybe some of these can be made.
That is what I am hopeful for. Otherwise, I will live with the color changes,
but will not feel as compelled to buy a large number of newer sets just to get
enough parts of newer colors.
Finally, my thinking on the new grays would be vastly improved if I could get a
2x2 tile pack in either the new or old light or dark gray!!! (Sorry, I ahve to
say it!)
Sincerely,
Scott Sanburn
President, Michiana-LUG http://www.michiana-lug.org
Webpages: http://www.scottesanburn.org
LEGO pages: http://www.scottesanburn.org/legoindex.html
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I am very tempted to say a lot about this issue but as most is already said,
I’ll keep it short:
As an engineer of profession I will just repeat the old saying that can never be
repeated too often:
Don’t repair something that is not broken!
This in addition to things like "Don’t copy others mistake" and "Don’t reinvent
the wheel" were drilled into us at the university. Somehow I think this is not
emphasized on marketing or economy studies...
There were nothing wrong with the old shades, and there is no improvement with
the new ones. New shades: yes. Replacing old familiar shades with new slightly
different ones: NO
Helge Viker
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In lugnet.lego, Jake McKee wrote:
| |
I would ask that you reply to this thread with your thoughts and feelings
about the color issue, both for and against. One post per person, I would
think would make sense. I would ask that the debate be restricted to other
threads, and that all posts be rational, calm, and non-hateful. This will
ensure that I can more easily pass along the information, and that the
message isn’t bogged down in debate.
|
I don’t have any of the new color pieces yet, but I’ve seen the new greys. I
haven’t seen the other new colors (e.g. brown) however. I think the real
problem is that the old greys are too yellowish, not that there’s anything wrong
with the new ones.
I think the new greys look better than the old ones, objectively speaking.
Especially the dark grey. But the contrast between old and new is too great.
It’s hard to mix them; they don’t go together. But over time, we’ll acquire
larger collections of the new colors, and the old ones will become as irrelevant
as CA bricks. It’ll be a difficult adjustment, but I suspect in a few years
we’ll have gotten used to it.
--Bill.
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In lugnet.lego, Jake McKee wrote:
| |
As both my duty as the Community Development Manager, and as an AFOL, I’m
interested in helping to make sure that the LEGO Company fully understands
the issues you have as well. I’m looking for your help to deliver the
message. To be totally clear, this is me asking in order to have answers
ready if and when my colleagues ask.
|
VERY GOOD MOVE, Jake!
IMHO, life is full of changes and that’s why it makes it interesting and
chalenging. We can all adapt in every situations. I understand the concern of
certain AFOLs, and here are my thoughts:
-First, WHY this decision? I would like to know exactly all the reasons, so it
would be easier to understand and make up my mind about the changes.
-I like the new colors, as well as the all the diferents other color, it makes
it very intersting for all kinds of MOCs, and let the artist go “loose”
-As a club member, I’m VERY concern about the changes when we’ll have our layout
done. If we have different colors for our baseplates or 9V rails, it will
look awefull, and we would have a hard time matching our current inventory
with some new ones. Therefore, I don’t like the idea to abandon the old
colors, but to add new colors to odd parts, but not bricks.
-As a club member again, we show our stuff of course, but also we represent what
Lego is. And much too often we have the comments “where can I buy this or
that?” and we have to say “well those aticles are dicontinued and they are
only available trough online stores or auction sites” (I.E monorail). All
visitors are in awe in front of our layout, and if we say “well TLC doesn’t
produce the old grey any more” what will happen??? We already have VERY SAD
faces in front of us and we feel so useless in front of their deception, we
REALLY DON’T WANT to deal with the question about the colors in public. It
is certainely not our duty.
-When I build MOCs, I already have problems with colors mismatch between new
bricks and old one, especially grey, (sometimes wheatered bricks) so after
the implantation of the new colors, it’ll be even harder, because we won’t
be able to find the pieces we need in the old colors. So please reconsider
the abandon of the old grey!
-KKK wants to focus on the “core”, HERE IT IS! Warm colors! And beg him to look
at the effect it has on the Lugnet comunity. We always have what we need in
our own backyard, so he can very well appreciate for himself the moves or
changes which turned to be disasters, let him be the judge of his
decisions.
-According to TLC, AFOLs represent 1% of the market, that is possible even if I
doubt it, I’m sure that is way more than that, because it is us,
PARENTS, who buy for the kids, and those parents have their say about
their kids’s choice! They remember what Lego was and still is in
their mind! I heard parents in shopping aisles choosing MegaBlocks
over Lego because they have more bricks and have more possibilities
to build with. I sure was shocked but that is also reality.
I have a dear friend who is working in toy retail since 20 years and can predict
with ease how the new Lego products will sell. He never went wrong.
One constant thing he says is that people are asking for bricks with
basic colors, houses, or anything with tons of possibilities. Most
people don’t like sets with one construction or cant use the pieces
with what they have already, and costumers complain already about the
“crazy” colors which are available.
So the impact of AFOLs/parents is CONSIDERABLE!!!
-To resume, like I said before, I welcome new colors anytime, but NOT in the
abandonment of the old ones.
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Jake McKee wrote:
> I would ask that you reply to this thread with your thoughts and feelings
> about the color issue, both for and against. One post per person, I would
> think would make sense. I would ask that the debate be restricted to other
> threads, and that all posts be rational, calm, and non-hateful. This will
> ensure that I can more easily pass along the information, and that the
> message isn't bogged down in debate.
My take on the issue:
For the new grey, the change is rather subtle and unless put right next to
eachother I don't see much problems with using the color in new models I
will make together with the old grey.
For the new dark grey however things don't look so well... the blueish color
looks like certain kinds of steel, very cold and it lacks the earth-like
tone the old dark grey had, making it a lot less useable for houses and
such.
One question for you Jake (might have been answered before, can't remember
reading it though):
What will happen with sets on the market now with the old style grey(s)?
Will those products disappear after stock runs out, will there be reruns in
old colors or in new colors? In particulair : Snow Speeder (which is very
recent), Legends (Castle!) and bulk. I noticed the Metroliner 10002 being
phased out in Europe, is that a sign on the wall for old-style-grey sets?
Regards,
--
Jan-Albert van Ree | http://www.vanree.net/brickpiles/
Brick Piles | Santa Fe B-unit
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Hi Jake,
nice to ask us about our feelings, but even if you tell us, TLC will not change
back to the old colours, I still wish you would do. Even if that would not heal
all the wounds that broke up now.
What I personally think about the colour change is the following:
- It harms the brand, because the new colours look ugly when combined with the older ones. For most consumer it looks like a quality lack....
- System has been compatible in colour and size since ever. This has now stopped. Who knows what comes next? We consumers feel very sceptical against anything done by TLC now.
- First when I learned about the colour change I was shocked, but I was not claiming about. I wanted to wait till I had a definite opinion about it and have seen the colours myself. Now I bought one set and I am sure: I stop buying sets with bigger amounts of gray. I love the new X-wing and MF, but I will definitely not buy them. They are as useful for me as glued models. I want to make up nice MOCs and can’t do it from the grey bricks inside these sets.
- I dislike the new colours since they look to military-like. We call them Panzergrau (tank grey) and Wehrmachtsgrau (ca. Nazi military grey) in Germany.
- Sorting problems and other things have been mentioned for e.g. by Eric Brok (I really agree with everything he wrote) and others again and again. I will not loose time about all that.
Thank you for taking your time,
Ben
P.s.: I am of the opinion only changing the size of the bricks and falling
behind MEGA BLOKs in quality could have been worse than this change. But
obviously TLC works on that as well? ;-)) (No, this is no joke, but these are
new bricks from the brandstore in Cologne - bought in late December)
http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?i=615926
P.p.s.: I called the S@H today to order some more old grey sets. The Lady on the
phone seemed to be amused, when I told her (in friendly words) about my personal
feelings about the new grey. I told her I knew she was not responsible, but
possibly she could tell at least her bosses about my claiming. She answered they
were already talking about taking back the change.(!!!) Maybe this has just been
meant as a lulleby for me, but I am not so sure about that. Maybe you are cut
off from informations again? I hope so..... ;-)
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.lego, Reinhard “Ben” Beneke wrote:
| |
P.s.: I am of the opinion only changing the size of the bricks and falling
behind MEGA BLOKs in quality could have been worse than this change. But
obviously TLC works on that as well? ;-)) (No, this is no joke, but these are
new bricks from the brandstore in Cologne - bought in late December)
http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?i=615926
|
Don’t miss this brickshelf picture in all the replys to Jake...
-Matt :)
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
I'd say pound them down with a rubber hammer, as TLG builders do, but looking at
the pic, they really are stacked about as tight as they'll go, definitely not
enough gappage there to even out the stacks.
Just one more step on the way to MegaBloks quality at twice/thrice the price?
"Matthew J. Chiles" wrote:
> In lugnet.lego, Reinhard "Ben" Beneke wrote:
>
> > P.s.: I am of the opinion only changing the size of the bricks and falling
> > behind MEGA BLOKs in quality could have been worse than this change. But
> > obviously TLC works on that as well? ;-)) (No, this is no joke, but these are
> > new bricks from the brandstore in Cologne - bought in late December)
> > <http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?i=615926
> > http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?i=615926>
>
> Don't miss this brickshelf picture in all the replys to Jake...
>
> -Matt :)
--
Tom Stangl
***http://www.vfaq.com/
***DSM Visual FAQ home
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
Oh man, must resist the urge to go off again. :)
Seriously though.......
The new grey colors are too blue and look very faded. The light much less
than the dark grey, but faded and blue none the less. As for the brown, the
old brown was perfect. The new brown has too much red in it to be brown
anymore. If it were not for the fact that Lego has chosen to replace the
correct light and dark grey colors, I would not care, I would simply not use
them. But replacing staple colors like light and dark grey with something
that is not even compatable with the old colors is out of line. Had you
replaced light and dark grey with new shades that were complimentary to the
old ones, I would be fine with it, even if I don't agree with the move. At
the very least if you can not be convinced that these new colors should be
eliminated, re-formulate them to be compatable with the old ones.
For me personally, this change will impact my purchase of new sets to the
point it will basically stop. As an example, I had put aside money for 20
of the mini ISD sets because they looked to be such a fantastic parts
selection (most of what I build is space related right now). Obviously that
purchase will never take place. This will carry through to any future sets
that contain more than a very small amount of these new colors (man what a
disappointment the Millennium Falcon will be). What little I do buy would
likely be limited to creator buckets. Even then, I have no intention of
using Megablock quality colors in my Lego creations.
A VERY unhappy AFOL who has only been back to the wonderful world of Lego
for two years. :(
Greg
"Jake McKee" <jacob.mckee@america.lego.com> wrote in message
news:HrInyA.22B1@lugnet.com...
> It's only a couple of weeks in the new year, and it looks like it's going • to be
> an interesting 2004!
>
> I have a request, but before I go any further, let me say that personally, • I
> understand the concerns surrounding the color changes. I know many of you • think
> of me as a marketer here to shill products. I'm an AFOL too with a healthy
> collection of light and dark gray, so I can understand your concerns.
>
> As both my duty as the Community Development Manager, and as an AFOL, I'm
> interested in helping to make sure that the LEGO Company fully understands • the
> issues you have as well. I'm looking for your help to deliver the message. • To be
> totally clear, this is me asking in order to have answers ready if and • when my
> colleagues ask.
>
> I would ask that you reply to this thread with your thoughts and feelings • about
> the color issue, both for and against. One post per person, I would think • would
> make sense. I would ask that the debate be restricted to other threads, • and that
> all posts be rational, calm, and non-hateful. This will ensure that I can • more
> easily pass along the information, and that the message isn't bogged down • in
> debate.
>
> Please understand that this is simply a fact/feeling/thought finding • mission,
> and does not mean that the decision to change colors is going to be • changed.
> Many of you have asked for the latest status information. There is nothing • new
> to report at this point. The color change is proceeding as planned, and • sets are
> rolling (and have already rolled) off the line with the new colors.
>
> But I know that you don't like this answer, so please use this opportunity • (as
> well as continuing to direct complaints and feedback through LEGO Customer
> Service) as a way to have your voices heard.
>
> Again, we are not changing the colors back, and from what I know now, we • aren't
> considering it. This is an information gathering mission only.
>
> Thanks in advance for your help!
>
> Jake
>
> ---¬
> Jake McKee¬
> Community Development Manager¬
> LEGO Community Development
> ¬
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Hello Jake,
Thanks for the opportunity to get feedback from the fan base, and see what the
responses are.
I’ve read about 2 to 3 dozen responses on the color change. While I didn’t think
I’d reply, after reading the posts I felt to chime in.
As a someone who has recently begun larger MOC building and making some more
interesting scuptures, I personally will say I think the color change is bold.
But I think it’s great!!
Just like adding more paints to the palette, hopefully AFOLs will begin to
embrace the move. I’m looking forward to seening just how many parts start to
come in the newer colors, and what I can build next.
Keep going, make more colors available, and watch the MOCs that come out of the
imaginations then... Now go the next step LEGO make more parts in those colors
rather than limiting the range. That would be even better!
Thanks again Jake!
Regards
Todd K. - Masterbuilder Finalsist, SD.
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.lego, Jake McKee wrote:
| |
It’s only a couple of weeks in the new year, and it looks like it’s going to
be an interesting 2004!
I have a request, but before I go any further, let me say that personally, I
understand the concerns surrounding the color changes. I know many of you
think of me as a marketer here to shill products. I’m an AFOL too with a
healthy collection of light and dark gray, so I can understand your concerns.
As both my duty as the Community Development Manager, and as an AFOL, I’m
interested in helping to make sure that the LEGO Company fully understands
the issues you have as well. I’m looking for your help to deliver the
message. To be totally clear, this is me asking in order to have answers
ready if and when my colleagues ask.
I would ask that you reply to this thread with your thoughts and feelings
about the color issue, both for and against. One post per person, I would
think would make sense. I would ask that the debate be restricted to other
threads, and that all posts be rational, calm, and non-hateful. This will
ensure that I can more easily pass along the information, and that the
message isn’t bogged down in debate.
Please understand that this is simply a fact/feeling/thought finding mission,
and does not mean that the decision to change colors is going to be changed.
Many of you have asked for the latest status information. There is nothing
new to report at this point. The color change is proceeding as planned, and
sets are rolling (and have already rolled) off the line with the new colors.
But I know that you don’t like this answer, so please use this opportunity
(as well as continuing to direct complaints and feedback through LEGO
Customer Service) as a way to have your voices heard.
Again, we are not changing the colors back, and from what I know now, we
aren’t considering it. This is an information gathering mission only.
Thanks in advance for your help!
Jake
---
Jake McKee
Community Development Manager
LEGO Community Development
|
- Do I like the change in colors? No. I’d like to keep the current color pallet. In fact, I think there are too many color variations as is.
- Why do I not like the change? As an engineer, I am always concerned with backwards compatibility. Sure the bricks still fit together, but the greys will not match. Overall, I’m not as concerned with the introduction of new colors as I am with the obsolescence of the old colors. The differences in the four shades will actually help me when greebling ships. Four greys are better than two.
- Do I think the color pallet is too varied? Yes. Why? It wouldn’t be such an issue, except for the distribution of the colors in sets. TLC has trended toward multitudinous colors in sets to make the assembly process easier. While that is a justifiable practice, it makes it difficult for the low-end collector to obtain enough parts in complimentary colors and shapes to build effectively.
- Will it stop me from buying new sets? No. I’ve been collecting for far to long (25 years) to let what I have collected grow stagnant.
TLC has mentioned the turbulence in the toy market in recent years as a
contributing factor to their lack of profitability. Has it ever occured to TLC
management that part of that turbulence may be a result of their own decisions?
TLC is currently acting like a child with ADHD. They have lost all sense of
focus and concentration. As an outsider looking in, my advice to TLC would be to
concentrate on fully utilizing the colors and parts currently available to their
maximum potential. Pick a direction, simplify and stick with it.
I have less disposable income than I had two years ago. I’m currently
concentrating on using the parts in my collection in a more effective manner
than on acquiring new sets. It’s cheaper, and I can still come up with new and
interesting ideas given the parts I already have. I think of TLC as the über
AFOL. With their current reduced financial position, I would think they would
want to do the same. Concentrate on using the readily available parts and colors
in new and innovative ways for a year, or two, rather than spending that capital
on acquiring new colors and engineering new shapes. Maybe then TLC can lay the
smack down on MegaBlocks once and for all and enjoy being the 500# building
block gorilla.
-Duane
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.lego, Jake McKee wrote:
| |
It’s only a couple of weeks in the new year, and it looks like it’s going to
be an interesting 2004!
|
I’ll agree on that. It will be a choise between buying or NOT buying any new
Lego set :-(
Of cause I had to buy one just to see the colors for myself.
This is my conclusion on the colors:
1. I like the new grey. It is actually more clear in color. But the downside is
that it makes the old grey look dusty and ‘old’. But still they are so close
that sorting will be a nightmare.
2. I very much dislike the new darkgrey. Perhaps ‘metalic blue’ would be a more
accurate name for that one.
3. And even worse the combination between the two grey’s is awfull. The old
grey’s matched much better.
4. I tried to be objective in comparing the new grey with other colors. But
again they are OFF. Mostly because of the ‘metalic blue’.
This is my conclusion on the change:
1. First of ALL the question WHY come’s to mind. Why change MAJOR colors in the
Lego line. Numbers speek for themself. The good source www.peeron.com tells the
story of a success of grey. Buy one of ever set and you would have 74914 grey
bricks (The second largest amount!!) and 19077 dark grey (the 7th largest). How
many YEARS before we have the same amount of different bricks in new grey and
metalic blue?
2. It is a clear break on the Lego spirit. Consistensy is broken. The idea of
Lego is down the drain. The joy of combining old with new is imposible. You need
AFOLs to make Lego a succes NOT marketing guys. The MOST important marketing
issue for Lego is that it lasts (nearly) forever and that it does not matter if
the bricks are new or old. This is what the LEGO Brand is known for.
3. I feel that I have to warn people that I know about this problem. And many
are chocked that the new bricks are different.
4. For now I have bought my first and only ‘new-grey’ set. Bricklink and ebay
sellers will benifit from my 2004 purchases not Lego :-( Even that I like the
sets I will certainly think twice before starting.
So Jake.... have an interesting 2004. You’re bound to have one.
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
I would ask that you reply to this thread with your thoughts and feelings
about the color issue, both for and against.
|
I really, really like the new grey colors. I think in and of themselves,
they’re great--the gunmetal dark grey could be extremely useful for lots of
space things, and the light grey is nicely neutral.
However, I really DISLIKE them as replacements. I have FAR more use for the
older dark grey in castle and space creations than gunmetal. Right now I’m
hesitant to buy any of the sets with the new colors, until I decide how I’m
going to sort the new colors into my collection, and I think I will always be a
little less inclined to buy sets with the new colors than the old. For the next
while, I’ll be more inclined to buy secondhand Lego sets and bricks than new
ones in the new colors.
Peter
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
OK, I guess this is my chance to sum up my thoughts on new colors (having not
yet read any of the previous 60 posts on this thread):
I strongly oppose the change in colors and that issue alone has caused me to
stop buying new Lego sets for the first time in 30 years.
The reason that Lego is not as colorful as it once was is that most sets sold
are predominately grey, brown, black or other “sand” colors. None of these
colors, by their very nature, are cheery. If parents are complaining that their
kid’s Lego collections are dull and depressing, it is because traditional bright
colors such as red, yellow, blue and white are hard to find any more. Or it is
because Lego minifigures are not very happy any more either.
Changing the shade of greys and brown now will not add any new sales because no
one shopping in the store will notice. Changing the box design or color, or set
designs is what adds new sales. Changing established brick colors will only
keep fans from buying more as they discover the new greys and browns don’t match
their existing pieces.
In summary, the changed colors benefit none and anger many because this is a
case where Lego is no longer “downwardly compatible”. Nearly anyone with a
collection large enough to notice the difference will not prefer it. This is
nearly everyone with more than 2 or 3 sets, and includes the majority of Lego
users of all age and demographic.
Please switch back to the old greys and brown as soon as possible, and brighten
our collections by selling sets with happy people and traditional bright colors.
-Matt :)
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
Jake,
Thank you for taking the time to get feedback from the AFOL community. I hope
most of it is rational and polite.
Light gray and dark gray are (were) my favorite colors and I was very upset to
hear about the color changes. As a new color, in addition to the old, I am in
favor of any new colors, but to replace/discontinue a color that has been a
standard color for over twenty years makes no sense. I literally have THOUSANDS
of dollars invested in these colors and now they are gone. I can still buy them
on the secondary market but at a now inflated price. When I look at some of the
new sets coming up I get excited “Hey cool, that door in dark gray...Oh wait.
Its the wrong gray”. Disappointing. Why would I buy a single set with colors I
can’t use? It would take YEARS to accumulate the same quantity of the old grays
to build the size of structures I enjoy building.
I was hoping for more variety of parts to come out in the old grays and now that
will never happen. I will never have more types of parts to work with than I
have now. Thats depressing.
I’ve seen the new colors and as a new color they are fine but they make a poor
substitute. The dark gray is too metallic. The brown is too washed out. The
light gray looks ....stained?
My other concern was my original love was Classic Space. It is what brought me
back to Lego after a long dark age. I was hoping for a Legend in Classic Space.
The Galaxy Explorer (the best Xmas gift I ever got, hands down) would be
incredible. But any Legend that comes out now will not be the same. It will
have the wrong colors. Worse, the parts will not match with the FLEET of ships
I already own.
I think most AFOL’s will agree that new colors are always welcomed but to
eliminate colors after 20 years makes no sense.
Bring back the old grays.
Mike
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Lego has represented the new grays as an “improvement”. I don’t agree - they
are merely different. For some applications of gray, they will work better, for
others, they will be worse. Natural stone is a warm tone, and the yellowish
gray old bricks were perfect for that - changing the basic color makes the new
gray incompatible with virtually every castle product. It was, simply put, an
ill-considered move. Adding new colors is fine - changing basic ones is
basically abandoning the established user base. I can’t say that I’ll simply
boycott new sets - but I *will* have to divert more money to old pieces to keep
basic compatiblity.
-->Bruce<--
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
Thank you TLG for such a change in color and how you did it.
I am sure that when my kids (who are NOT born yet) go to MBA school this will
be a classic case study on how a company goes DOWN the toliet!
In my studys for my MBA I learned how IBM totally messed up by not listen to the
market about the PC, how Xerox failed to understand that “paper” was a thing of
the past and it should have gone digitlal, and how American Airlines failed to
see the need of the local bussiness commuter and how SouthWest airlines took
away market share.
TLG will soon join the ranks of the mighty that FALL!. It saddends me that
those at the very top (thank goodness they are gone) can do so much damage and
not hear the voices of those below. No common sense... I guess all that $$$
just goes to their heads.
Okay my thoughts on the new colors: WHATEVER!
I “play” with whatever you give me. However, based on all the negative comments
you have gotten here I don’t think it was a wise decision NOT because ALL us
AFOLs are complianing that we will NOT match anymore. TOUGH LOVE!
But for what Lindsay Frederick Braun wrote here:
http://news.lugnet.com/lego/?n=678
His concern over the general public thinking the color change is a quality
issues is the biggest concern of mine. I know that we (AFOLs) can not support
TGL alone its the general public that keeps TGL afloat. But if they (the
general public) percieve this as a quality issue and move away from LEGO then we
(AFOL) are screwed becuase TGL will go belly up. Granted, I’m sure the color
change alone will not cause TGL to go belly up. It’s just one of many errors
that will lead the TGL to chapter 11.
-AHui
A&M LWorks
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.lego, Ahui Herrera wrote:
| |
Thank you TLG for such a change in color and how you did it.
I am sure that when my kids (who are NOT born yet) go to MBA school this
will be a classic case study on how a company goes DOWN the toliet!
In my studys for my MBA I learned how IBM totally messed up by not listen to
the market about the PC, how Xerox failed to understand that “paper” was a
thing of the past and it should have gone digitlal, and how American Airlines
failed to see the need of the local bussiness commuter and how SouthWest
airlines took away market share.
TLG will soon join the ranks of the mighty that FALL!. It saddends me that
those at the very top (thank goodness they are gone) can do so much damage
and not hear the voices of those below. No common sense... I guess all
that $$$ just goes to their heads.
Okay my thoughts on the new colors: WHATEVER!
I “play” with whatever you give me. However, based on all the negative
comments you have gotten here I don’t think it was a wise decision NOT
because ALL us AFOLs are complianing that we will NOT match anymore.
TOUGH LOVE!
But for what Lindsay Frederick Braun wrote here:
http://news.lugnet.com/lego/?n=678
His concern over the general public thinking the color change is a quality
issues is the biggest concern of mine. I know that we (AFOLs) can not
support TGL alone its the general public that keeps TGL afloat. But if they
(the general public) percieve this as a quality issue and move away from LEGO
then we (AFOL) are screwed becuase TGL will go belly up. Granted, I’m sure
the color change alone will not cause TGL to go belly up. It’s just one of
many errors that will lead the TGL to chapter 11.
|
Well it’s be over a month since I’ve had the new colors and I think I have to
say I’m sorry for my earlier post. I vented my fustration on the new colors and
how I did not like them. But in this past month I’ve actually used them in some
small model creations. Mind you i am NOT the type to build moc or mix and
match my bricks from different sets. I build a set and display it for the most
part. Mix and match is what we have LDraw for. =)
In any case, I think the new light gray is MORE in line with the other LEGO
colors. It look more like cement than the original ligh grey. As for the dark
grey hum... still “no like it”. The old dark grey was perfect for militray
models like tanks. This new dark gray well it’s just there. No real feeling
for it one way or the other.
I also did a small test with my 4 and 5 year old nieces. I showed them a small
model (a simple house) with the old light grays and dark grays and the same
model with the new light grays and dark grays. They like the new 2nd model (the
one with the new colors). I asked them why they like the 2nd model and the 5
year old said that the 1st model looked too dark. The 4 year old liked how the
yellow and light grey looked on the second model and not the first.
So I guess they win.. =)
-AHui
A&M LWorks
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
Hello Jake,
First, I’d like to thank you for allowing the AFOL community a chance to provide
constructive feedback. I don’t know of many other companies that would take such
interest in a relatively small market segment’s opinion.
From a personal level, I really don’t feel strongly one way or the other about
the grays being changed. I can work with them all in one way or another. The
color change almost certainly won’t affect my LEGO spending habits.
My thoughts are more from a marketing and perception of the general buying
public side. The new colors are just different enough from the old to be
noticeable, but not different enough to really be considered a “new” color.
There’s the perception that “this batch of color is off - wonder what happened
in quality control?” going through consumers’ minds. So rather than being
concerned about my own collection of pieces, I’m more worried about the
long-term effects of like-colored-but-not-exact-colored pieces mixing in with
the kids’ collections.
In short, it could look like a mistake, and consumer confidence in LEGO and the
brand could take a hit.
That, to me, is much more of a problem than having to match colors for a MOC.
So my un-asked-for advice is to make a silk purse out of what could be a really
stinky sow’s ear... LEGO should tout the change and tell people why it’s better.
“NEW BRIGHTER COLORS!” This might work well with KKK’s taking firmer control of
the reins.
In the end, anything that erodes confidence in TLC and the LEGO brand is a bad
thing for all AFOLs in the long run.
Best regards,
Kelly
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.lego, Jake McKee wrote:
| |
It’s only a couple of weeks in the new year, and it looks like it’s going to
be an interesting 2004!
I have a request, but before I go any further, let me say that personally, I
understand the concerns surrounding the color changes. I know many of you
think of me as a marketer here to shill products. I’m an AFOL too with a
healthy collection of light and dark gray, so I can understand your concerns.
As both my duty as the Community Development Manager, and as an AFOL, I’m
interested in helping to make sure that the LEGO Company fully understands
the issues you have as well. I’m looking for your help to deliver the
message. To be totally clear, this is me asking in order to have answers
ready if and when my colleagues ask.
I would ask that you reply to this thread with your thoughts and feelings
about the color issue, both for and against. One post per person, I would
think would make sense. I would ask that the debate be restricted to other
threads, and that all posts be rational, calm, and non-hateful. This will
ensure that I can more easily pass along the information, and that the
message isn’t bogged down in debate.
Please understand that this is simply a fact/feeling/thought finding mission,
and does not mean that the decision to change colors is going to be changed.
Many of you have asked for the latest status information. There is nothing
new to report at this point. The color change is proceeding as planned, and
sets are rolling (and have already rolled) off the line with the new colors.
But I know that you don’t like this answer, so please use this opportunity
(as well as continuing to direct complaints and feedback through LEGO
Customer Service) as a way to have your voices heard.
Again, we are not changing the colors back, and from what I know now, we
aren’t considering it. This is an information gathering mission only.
Thanks in advance for your help!
Jake
---
Jake McKee
Community Development Manager
LEGO Community Development
|
When I first read about the color change, I thought..well...it can’t be that
bad...however..now that I own a few of the sets wnd some of the colors...I can
see why some people are so upset. The first thing I thought when I saw them in
person was “Mega Block”...they are very close in color to some of the clone
brand colors I have seen...and if I wanted an inferior product, I would of saved
a few bucks and bought the clones. To me the new colors just look cheap...and
although I will probably continue to buy new sets...all the new colors will be
going into a seperate bin that will be tossed aside and not used.
Tom D
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Thanks for asking. The new colors would be great if thats what we had all along
in place of the old colors, but we don’t so I would have to say that I would
rather buy a bucket of old colors rather than the new ones. On the other hand,
if I didn’t have any old bricks I would buy the new ones because I wouldn’t have
any that didn’t match the old ones. Also the new bricks have a mechanic color
and more of a pasty look to them.
Erik Bush
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
So far I have bought sets with new dark and light gray and new brown, so
I've seen the 3 major color changes. I don't like the new light gray or new
brown. The new dark gray is OK, but only for certain pieces.
As for the whole color replacement in general, I'm with the
If-it's-not-broke-don't-fix-it group. As many people have stated before here,
the old grays and brown were fine. The shade of old light gray worked very well
for stone, concrete and metal. The new light gray just doesn't look quite
right. The new dark gray is good for some things. I think that some small
mechanical type pieces look good in new dark gray. New brown was just silly.
Old brown was perfect for any brown thing you wanted to make.
One of the problems with the new replacement colors is exactly that--they're
REPLACEMENTS instead of additions. No one said anything bad about verdigris
("sand" green) pieces when they came out because we still had regular green. If
a fairly new color or a seldom produced color had been replaced, I doubt people
would have cared much. The 2 grays and brown are colors that lots of people
used in mass quantities, so the impact of their replacement was much greater.
Another problem with the new colors is that they're so similar to the old
versions of the colors that they look like a mistake. If a new color (dusty
["sand"] blue, light orange, teal, etc.) is clearly different from an existing
LEGO color, then we recognize it as something new. The new colors aren't all
that different from the old ones, so it looks like LEGO made some kind of
plastic dye mistake. This slight difference, as opposed to a clear/striking
difference, is what makes the new 2004 sets have a cheaper look to them. (We
know, of course, that the quality of pieces in the new colors is the same.) I
remember you saying something in a post about LEGO wanting the colors to be more
"in line." That seemed odd to me, since colors in the real world aren't in
line; they're all over the sprctrum.
I think that LEGO has made a big assumption in thinking that new or young
users won't notice the color change. If this color change had happened when I
was a kid, I would've felt the same about it as I do now. Another aspect is
that parents remember LEGO colors more than you'd think. Take this recent story
for example:
A few months ago I heard my sister talking to our mom on her cell phone.
From the conversation they were having, I knew that my mom must be in a Wal-Mart
store. My local Wal-Mart was out of some LEGO sets that I wanted at the time,
so I asked if I could talk to my mom on the phone. I asked her if she could
pick up a set or two for me, then I could pay her back later. She said that she
was close to the toy section, so she would go look to see if they had the sets I
wanted while I was still on the phone with her. Now we all know that every
Wal-Mart in the US has at least a few LEGO sets at any given time of the year.
My mom started searching the toy section, but could not find the LEGO aisle.
After a second pass, I heard her ask an employee where the LEGO aisle was. She
had passed right by the LEGO aisle twice because she hadn't recognized it. Her
next question made me realize why she had done that:
"What happened to all the yellow boxes?"
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In lugnet.lego, David Gregory wrote:
> "What happened to all the yellow boxes?"
Sometimes just one simple sentence like this very one is more clarifying than
thousands of words.
Thanks for sharing!
Best,
Paulo Renato
(Sorry Jake but, i couldn't help reply to this one:-)
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I actually LIKE the new colors. But I DON’T WANT them because they’re changing a
constant (or so we thought!) in the LEGO universe: light gray (and dark gray).
The new colors are not backward-compatible and don’t match older LEGO-products.
There you have it: two things that should never ever have ended up together in
one sentence: “don’t match” and “LEGO” ...
Will I buy more new 2004 sets? A few of them, yes. But not multiple copies
anymore. I simply do not wish to spend lots of cash on pieces I cannot use on
MOCs for years to come. Bricklink and the 2nd hand-market will have to still my
needs until (after a couple of years) the new colors are common enough to allow
me to switch over and have a large variety of shapes availible.
Of course, I hope LEGO is up for another tough decision and undoes the color
change: Could reversing a bad and incredibly stupid move possibly be harder than
getting rid of Mr. Plougmann and all those non-basic LEGO product lines?
Jake, please do your best, bang several heads if you have to! ;)
Finally, here’s a suggestion for a banner to put up at your next staff meeting:
“IF IT AIN’T BROKEN, DON’T FIX IT!”
(Just for the record: a color that has been around for decades is most
definitely NOT broken)
And if, at one of the staff meetings, marketing guys are trying to tell you Star
Wars set sales recently have dropped like a dead fly just because there is no
new movie out this year, please bang their heads especially hard.
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Let me put it this way : after seeing the new and old grays together in a
project, it is my opinion that the persons who approved the color change should
be fired by TLG.
I would say I hate the change, but you asked to be calm and non-hateful.
However, I will say that there is nothing worst LEGO has done in my opinion in
the last 20 years to kill the enjoyability of the toy by adults. After reading
the article in which Kjeld said the company was going back to its core and
focusing on children, I’m wondering if it also means that the adults are now
meaningless.
Anyway, I’m sorry if it’s not exactly the king of answer you were hoping for.
I’m not against new colors, but don’t touch the ones already in place!
Terry
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In lugnet.lego, Terry Prosper wrote:
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Let me put it this way : after seeing the new and old grays together in a
project, it is my opinion that the persons who approved the color change
should be fired by TLG.
I would say I hate the change, but you asked to be calm and non-hateful.
However, I will say that there is nothing worst LEGO has done in my opinion
in the last 20 years to kill the enjoyability of the toy by adults. After
reading the article in which Kjeld said the company was going back to its
core and focusing on children, I’m wondering if it also means that the adults
are now meaningless.
Anyway, I’m sorry if it’s not exactly the king of answer you were hoping for.
I’m not against new colors, but don’t touch the ones already in place!
Terry
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I just bought my first 2004 set with brown, l-gray and d-gray. If I’m happy
with the set itself (4501), I must say that I truly don’t appreciate the nw
colors. I had already seen them before in a project from someone else, but now
that I have some at home, I am appaled. The brown is horrible and the d-gray
makes me feel sick. I’ll be calling LEGO later this afternoon to know how I can
get the parts in the former, much more beautiful brown, d-gray and l-gray. It
will be either that or money back.
Terry
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In lugnet.lego, Terry Prosper wrote:
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In lugnet.lego, Terry Prosper wrote:
| |
Let me put it this way : after seeing the new and old grays together in a
project, it is my opinion that the persons who approved the color change
should be fired by TLG.
I would say I hate the change, but you asked to be calm and non-hateful.
However, I will say that there is nothing worst LEGO has done in my opinion
in the last 20 years to kill the enjoyability of the toy by adults. After
reading the article in which Kjeld said the company was going back to its
core and focusing on children, I’m wondering if it also means that the
adults are now meaningless.
Anyway, I’m sorry if it’s not exactly the king of answer you were hoping
for. I’m not against new colors, but don’t touch the ones already in place!
Terry
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I just bought my first 2004 set with brown, l-gray and d-gray. If I’m happy
with the set itself (4501), I must say that I truly don’t appreciate the nw
colors. I had already seen them before in a project from someone else, but
now that I have some at home, I am appaled. The brown is horrible and the
d-gray makes me feel sick. I’ll be calling LEGO later this afternoon to know
how I can get the parts in the former, much more beautiful brown, d-gray and
l-gray. It will be either that or money back.
Terry
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Hey, Terry!
I had somewhat the same experience when building the new mini-ISD (4092?). I
like (not love, just like) the set, and have bought several to try and build a
mid-sized ISD. When building it, I hadn’t built anything with Lego in over a
month - no exposure to Lego elements whatsoever. When I dumped the parts on my
desk, the light gray didn’t look different from what my memory told me it should
look like, but the dark gray was instantly, noticeably different from my memory
of dark gray. Something about the color looks “toylike,” or “plastic.” (I
know, it’s a plastic toy - I’m struggling for the word)
Maybe a better way to put it is that the new dark gray seemed somehow “cheap” to
me. It’s hard to describe - the color just doesn’t say “quality” like other
Lego colors do to me.
There’s my US$0.02
James Wilson
Dallas, TX
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In lugnet.lego, James Wilson wrote:
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When I dumped the parts on my desk, the light gray didn’t look different
from what my memory told me it should look like, but the dark gray was
instantly, noticeably different from my memory of dark gray. Something
about the color looks “toylike,” or “plastic.” (I know, it’s a plastic toy -
I’m struggling for the word)
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Artificial, fake, synthetic, imitation... Do any of those sound right?
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The main reasons i do not like this color change:
1. They don’t match the old ones.
2. When mixed, the old ones look like degradaded with time. The old light grey
seem too much yellowed and i hate yellowed parts. (see this post:
http://news.lugnet.com/lego/?n=681)
3. Storing will (would, as matter of fact) be a head & eyes ache. Count me out
on that.
4. The reasons announced for this color change are ridiculous, to say the least.
Is anyone buying that? Really?! This measure has obviously a cost-cutting
reason. If the reason was to increase sales there would be a lot of publicity.
The new sets don’t even mention it...
5. The end of producing a color is a terrible thing to happen to any
sufficiently large lego collection. I’ve always collected lego, keeping in mind
that i could add new *matching* elements to that collection in the future. I had
so many MOCs in my plans that now are ruined...
6. What is the point of Legends now?
7. I do not intend to reinvest on the new colors until i have more bricks of
these than i have of the old ones (1).That would be bank rupting. Therefore i do
not intend to buy lego with new shades of grays and brown. Maybe this is a good
oportunity for me to stop buying lego at all. If you look at my invoice page for
the last two years, you will understand what i’m talking about here.
8. Furthermore, how do we know from now on what is the color of a set. I must
remind you that i sent an e-mail to Lego Service asking about what will be the
colors on the new run of set 10000 and didn’t have no answer to date. Very
unprofessional, i think.
9. I know TLC is a business company ans has to make money. Neverthless i think
that the AFOL comunity should be informed that this measure was to be taken.
Maybe we represent 5% of the market, maybe myself am 0.0001% of the market, that
doesn’t give no one the right to treat me like a number. That’s what i feel,
really. And i’m trying to be nice...
10. Most of all, i lost my trust on TLC. How can i be assured that the geometry
of the bricks will not change? How can i be assured that TLC won’t stop
producing 1/3 plates and start producing 1/2 ones instead? How can i be assured
other colors won’t be reajusted? Look at the white: surely as it is now, it
*doesn’t* belong to this new colors pallet; it is my guess that it will be
changed soon too. And, guess what, it will look more like the MB white. Much
whiter, that is. (wich is a great color by the way but, our collections must be
consistent.)
11. Don’t want to be apocalyptic here but i fear that this decision if not
reversed will put TLC in serious hard time. I’m not over-reacting here. Can you
imagine the quantity of sets i have ‘sold’ at Toys’R’Us. People that were buying
MB stuff and i had to explain to them that Lego, despite being a lot more
expensive, has a lot more quality? Now, what arguments will i have?
Thanks for your interest and best regards,
Paulo *very upset* Renato
(1) Even if i tried to replace my old color collection with the new colors that
would be technically impossible.
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Well, I suppose we can attempt to be civil about this... :o)
After hearing about it initially I was not too concerned, “How far off the
beaten path of the color palate would LEGO stray?” I thought. Very far was my
answer.
I purchased the Mos Eisley Cantina and all four of the 2004 Star Wars Mini sets
only to find that blue had been heavily added to the grays, and red was apparent
in the brown. Heresy!!! Blasphemey!!! The three colors most affected by the
change are my most cherished earth tones, treasured for the muted tones of
stone, steel and earth that they represent. I could not stand them and was
quite upset that LEGO would change things that drasticly.
The colors of antiquity-2003 represent a significant focus of my collection,
spanning 400,000 bricks (estimated using LUGNET set database and personal
inventory). I feel that I have a large collection that I always seem to find
need for more parts to accent creations, or just make them bigger. You can
never have enough gray. That is a fact.
The new colors are not bad in and of themselves, but what I dislike STRONGLY is
that now after the Great Clearance Sales of Jan. 2004, I will be hard pressed to
add to my uniformity of Light Gray, Dark Gray and Brown. What I have is what I
have, no more will be possible. I will have to spend an arm and a leg on the
various online sites offering classic product if I want any more.
I don’t have a lot of the new colors but here is my primary interest in using
them; they will be used to accent and break up any designs I create. I doubt
that I will collect an equal amount of the new colors, and may scale back
collecting. I can use them and work them into a design, but the will not
replace the classic color pieces I own. They will be part of a separated set of
colors, like orange and teal. They therefore will not become a primary
construction color.
They are nice, those new colors, but they are NOT Light Gray, Dark Gray or
Brown. They are instead Light Blue Gray, Dark Blue Gray and Reddish Brown. I
don’t know of any owner of paints, Crayola Crayons, or any other pigmentation
art supplies that would call each color the same, even though clearly different.
LEGO is restructuring the rules of coloration, and expecting children to ignore
it or “deal” with the false representation. Is that what we are trying to
educate our children to? Whatever a company says is true is more important than
actual truth? These colors are not replacements, they are NEW colors. The
originals have been killed.
I am not weatlthy enough to make my own, so I am limited to buying what is
available. I could conceivable stop buying LEGO altogether, some would say
400,000 bricks is good enough. They may be right, but I’d still like to
integrate new parts into my building. Even the colors in question of the
classic pigment. Alas, for I cannot.
I do not harbor any hatred or dislike, just pure confussion and sadness.
I feel limited by this change. That is the heart of my discontent. LEGO has
never limited me before. Now it is imposed by force without thought. I guess
that is why it feels so much like a betrayal, rather than a marketing move.
I think that after a while we’ll all feel somewhat like post-war survivors,
remembering fondly a time gone by of when things were different. We will get
along, we will survive, but something will always be sweet about the way things
were before. I’m sure we will all be able to cope and even accept this change.
It just came as a shock.
I hope that helps explain things about how we feel.
Play well,
:o)
Aaron F. West
#279
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In lugnet.lego, Jake McKee wrote:
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It’s only a couple of weeks in the new year, and it looks like it’s going to
be an interesting 2004!
I have a request, but before I go any further, let me say that personally, I
understand the concerns surrounding the color changes. I know many of you
think of me as a marketer here to shill products. I’m an AFOL too with a
healthy collection of light and dark gray, so I can understand your concerns.
As both my duty as the Community Development Manager, and as an AFOL, I’m
interested in helping to make sure that the LEGO Company fully understands
the issues you have as well. I’m looking for your help to deliver the
message. To be totally clear, this is me asking in order to have answers
ready if and when my colleagues ask.
I would ask that you reply to this thread with your thoughts and feelings
about the color issue, both for and against. One post per person, I would
think would make sense. I would ask that the debate be restricted to other
threads, and that all posts be rational, calm, and non-hateful. This will
ensure that I can more easily pass along the information, and that the
message isn’t bogged down in debate.
Please understand that this is simply a fact/feeling/thought finding mission,
and does not mean that the decision to change colors is going to be changed.
Many of you have asked for the latest status information. There is nothing
new to report at this point. The color change is proceeding as planned, and
sets are rolling (and have already rolled) off the line with the new colors.
But I know that you don’t like this answer, so please use this opportunity
(as well as continuing to direct complaints and feedback through LEGO
Customer Service) as a way to have your voices heard.
Again, we are not changing the colors back, and from what I know now, we
aren’t considering it. This is an information gathering mission only.
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Thanks for the opportunity Jake.
My main concern is the discontinuation of the classic colours. As many have
already said, not being able to get any more bricks in those colours is gonna
seriously affect a lot of AFOLs. I seem to remember someone asked whether Lego
Direct may be able to supply the classic colours in bulk packs, and I don’t
recall the answer, but I’d like to suggest, if at all possible, that this option
be seriously considered.
ROSCO
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In lugnet.lego, Jake McKee wrote:
| |
It’s only a couple of weeks in the new year, and it looks like it’s going to
be an interesting 2004!
I have a request, but before I go any further, let me say that personally, I
understand the concerns surrounding the color changes. I know many of you
think of me as a marketer here to shill products. I’m an AFOL too with a
healthy collection of light and dark gray, so I can understand your concerns.
As both my duty as the Community Development Manager, and as an AFOL, I’m
interested in helping to make sure that the LEGO Company fully understands
the issues you have as well. I’m looking for your help to deliver the
message. To be totally clear, this is me asking in order to have answers
ready if and when my colleagues ask.
I would ask that you reply to this thread with your thoughts and feelings
about the color issue, both for and against. One post per person, I would
think would make sense. I would ask that the debate be restricted to other
threads, and that all posts be rational, calm, and non-hateful. This will
ensure that I can more easily pass along the information, and that the
message isn’t bogged down in debate.
Please understand that this is simply a fact/feeling/thought finding mission,
and does not mean that the decision to change colors is going to be changed.
Many of you have asked for the latest status information. There is nothing
new to report at this point. The color change is proceeding as planned, and
sets are rolling (and have already rolled) off the line with the new colors.
But I know that you don’t like this answer, so please use this opportunity
(as well as continuing to direct complaints and feedback through LEGO
Customer Service) as a way to have your voices heard.
Again, we are not changing the colors back, and from what I know now, we
aren’t considering it. This is an information gathering mission only.
Thanks in advance for your help!
Jake
---
Jake McKee
Community Development Manager
LEGO Community Development
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Nicely? hmmm.....after having read the previous 70-odd replies, I don’t know if
‘nicely’ really means anything. If there is no chance of reversing the color
change, then what is the real point of the thread? If there is even a slight
chance that TLC will ‘New Coke’ us and bring back the old, perhaps it is worth
something...hmmm.
Anyway, my first look at the new light grey struck me as being what I could only
describe as ‘lilac’-y...that is to say, it almost had a pinkish/purple-y quality
that was a nearly complete mismatch to the original.
And having just now completed comparing the new dark grey to the old, while the
‘new’ is definitely so blue it almost would better be described as a ‘new’ blue,
the old, when placed right next to it, really almost seems like a brown-grey.
I haven’t seen the new brown yet, but from what I hear, it’s not up to snuff
either.
Does all this mean I’ll abandon my lego budget for something else? Doubtful.
Will I not buy any 2004 sets because of it? No, but I’ll probably not, like
others, be as inclined to buy multiple sets, as with previous sets.
It’s almost as if the Lego community at large has been numb-chucked into
believing that this change is good.
“Only the best is good enough”? Perhaps TLC needs to redefine ‘good enough”.
Regards.
Mike
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Thanks for taking the time to ask for our views. I have not personally seen the
new colors yet, but I can understand where folks are coming from. They see a
discontinuance of an existing (and well used) set of colors. Likewise folks see
a long road ahead to get enough of the new colors to be useful. To put it
another way, people are stuck between a rock and a hard place. What probably
caused most of the consternation is that TLC/LSI made no attempt to issue a ‘End
of life / Last call’ for those items before it became a fait accompli.
Having said that, may I suggest a partial solution (it won’t make everyone
happy, but it might smooth the transition if the color change is
irreversible)...
A limited production run of a tub (similar to the 4400) which contains an ample
stock of both the old colors and the new colors (in a variety of bricks, plates
and slopes). Should you choose this direction, please ask for advance orders so
that you know how many the market might really be able to absorb (because as we
saw with 4400, the demand far exceeded the supply). Some people might be more
interested in the old colors, some the new colors, so I would expect some
horse-trading after the fact to move em around.
Again, thanks for asking for our views.
Ray Sanders
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Jake,
Thank you for the opportunity to provide input. I have already sent in letters
though the consumer affairs website.
After reading most of the posts in the thread, I don’t know if I will be able to
add any unique or new viewpoints to what has already been stated. I will add my
opinions in the event that you will be using the responses to this thread for
some sort of numerical/statistical analysis.
I do not like the new colors for several reasons.
1. I have been collecting Lego since 1973. I have amassed a great quantity of
light gray and dark gray pieces over the years. I have piece types in light
gray that have long since been discontinued. Up until this year I could mix
gray parts from newly bought sets with parts from my original classic space sets
in a MOC and have it look good. New and interesting pieces such as the 3x12
wedge plates are not as useful to me, since they will not match some of the
colors in my current collection. I am not going to spent the next 20 - 30 years
(and thousands of $$) amassing an equivalent collection of the new grays. The
collection I have right now will have to serve my needs. I usually buy sets for
parts to build MOCs. I occasionally have bought sets for the set themselves.
The Santa Fe super cheif is an example. I felt that this set was so well done,
I bought 3 of them. I was intending to buy the train cars to go with it this
year and get in to trains. Now I probably will not since I cannot be sure that
the gray in the SC cars will match the gray in my super chief engines. You have
lost a potential train customer. In short, one of Lego’s core selling points
has always been its backwards compatibility. This applies to the color palette
as much as it does the stud-tube connection and piece geometry.
I think that the new snow speeder is a great set and is much improved over the
original snowspeeder set. I have not purchased it solely because it contains
the new grays. The only 2004 set I have purchased is the new x-wing and only
after it was confirmed to have the original gray/brown colors. If it had not, I
either would have not purchased it or I would have returned it. As it stands
now, since November, I have spent $0.00 on new retail Lego purchases (though I
did receive the new space shuttle for xmas - and it had the old gray in it) and
have spent ~$300.00 ordering “classic gray” parts on bricklink.com to complete
various MOCs. I used to buy retail sets to get parts that I needed... you have
driven me to bricklink instead.
2. The new grays are not as versatile as the older colors. The new colors
almost have too much of a cold and sterile feel to them. As others have stated,
the new colors are not well suited to building creations such as castles, wooden
ships, and other things that require an earthy or muddy feel to them. Even for
building mechnical type creations, the older grays could be used to give a
creation a dirty, weathered feel. The new grays are great for building
aircraft, tanks, spaceships, and other mechanical things but that is about it.
Even so, I am not willing to buy the number of sets required to amass even a
working collection of the new grays to build a moc like
this. Part of the
problem is that most of the newer sets are comprised of so many different colors
that it is very difficult to amass a useable collection of any newly released
color.
3. I am extremely unhappy with the way this color change has been handled. I
feel like Lego tried to “pull a fast one” with its consumers. I explain my
feelings in more detail here and
here. Most AFOL’s are very
intelligent and mostly rational people. Many people here feel that focus-group
story does not make much sense and thus there has got to be a “real” reason
behind the change. Whether or not there is more to the color change story,
this move has seriously damaged the trust that alot of us long-time consumers
had for TLC.
4. As already mentioned elsewhere, the color changed is likely to be perceived
by the general consumer market as a quality issue. In my opinion, TLC’s
quality control has been on a downward trend for several years. I have yet to
get the train wheels on my aforementioned Superchief set replaced... which
reminds me when I call them, will I get old or new gray wheels? After the
problems with the wright flyer set I wrote about in this
post I wonder if TLC really does care
about their perceived quality. If the perceived quality of Lego brand bricks
sinks low enough, what is to prevent the general consumer base from buying the
cheaper clone brands?
5. As I lover of Classic Space, I really feel ripped off. We will never see a
true legend re-release of the Galaxy explorer. Blue and light gray are colors
that I have always cherrished.
Thats about all I have to say about the color changes. I do hope the TLC does
switch back to the correct colors for their bricks. If not, my life will go on.
I may or may not buy new sets but I can defintely say that I will be much more
selective. I imagine the only sets I will be buying are ones that really stand
out as excellent sets. Which judging on past years, will be a small minority of
the overall product line. I would be willing to tolerate a co-existance of all
4 shades of gray given the sorting problems.
While I’m on my soapbox, I am also going to complain about the seemingly blanket
replacement of finger hinge parts with click hinges. the click hinge parts
should be able to co-exist with finger hinge parts... Each hinge type has
applications for which one type is better suited than the other. This is
another example of where it is bad to replace something rather than adding
something to the product line.
Thank you again for the opportunity to offer my input.
drc
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Personally, if TLG cares about the millions of life long builders and
collecters, they should take this seriously.
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There have been a lot of posts to this thread already. I won’t repeat the many
different reasons given why this color change has personal negative impact to
folks, except to say that I agree with them all as valid. I will be personally
negatively impacted in just about every way mentioned (building, sorting, curb
appeal of models, etc, etc, etc), and I wish the color change hadn’t happened.
But it did.
I wish LEGO would change them back.
But they probably won’t.
Now, if you look back over the years at my posts regarding the company, you’ll
see that I tend to say “they did X for business reasons”, “they’re running a
business here”, “what are the numbers for that” and on and on and on.
I may not have liked Bionicle etc but I could see why, from a numbers
perspective. it made sense. Regardless of whether we are 1% or 2% or 10%, it
made sense, because the mundanes wanted it, and wanted it bad. Witness the sales
figures bandied about.
What has me totally baffled here is that I can’t fathom how this particular
change could have been analysed as a good idea by anyone. Ahui said it nicely...
this change may well be an HBR case study some day on what not to do when
thinking about product changes.
I would love to see the business case for it, as I expect I’d be able to pick
many many holes in it quite easily. (business cases are something I do deal with
on a more infrequent basis recently than back when I was at CTP, but I still
know them well)
I know I’ll never see it though, that’s just the way it is... but nevertheless,
I am sure that the gain in sales due to brighter, more aligned grays, (if
any!!!!), is going to be way offset by the increase in complaints and loss of
sales from the mundanes.
We all (well, many of us) are making noise about how this is going to change our
buying habits. And that may be true enough but it’s not the big number in the
negative business case I’ve built up in my head. The bigger number is the loss
of enthusiasm that we may be about to experience. A year from now if we aren’t
doing as many shows, aren’t talking up the product as much, aren’t defending it
when we’re in the aisles and the mundanes are making product decisions, that’s
the bigger number. I think our influence on others is worth more to the company
than our direct sales.
But even that, bad as it is, isn’t the biggest number. The biggest number will,
I think, come from the mundanes themselves without any positive or negative
influence necessary from us. I just don’t think they are as undiscerning as the
marketroids that came up with this change think they are. They are going to
realise something is wrong, not be able to put their finger on exactly what, and
they will return product or just not buy it at all. I think that’s going to be
true even if every one of us tried to defend the decision to them every chance
we got, out there in the trenches. (er, aisles)
And THAT’s what is going to cost LEGO a lot, I think. Returns are not cheap,
they can cost a company more than the margin on several sales of the returned
item, not even considering the knockon effect of lost orders when Target and
WalMart decide that the extra return rate is impacting their margin and the lost
sales are impacting their turn rate so they better scale their buys back.
This decision has seriously shaken my faith in the middle management team at
LEGO.
It is just such an irrational decision, in my view. No amount of spin about
color brightening or consumer focus groups holds any water with me. Someone
somewhere messed up and now the company is in a corner and can’t change back
without blowing even MORE money than they blew on the change in the first place.
(think about the horrific cost that would be entailed in changing back)
And that’s the saddest thing... LEGO have made a really dumb decision at a time
when they need to be smart. Really smart.
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In lugnet.lego, Jake McKee wrote:
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I would ask that you reply to this thread with your thoughts and feelings
about the color issue, both for and against. One post per person, I would
think would make sense. I would ask that the debate be restricted to other
threads, and that all posts be rational, calm, and non-hateful. This will
ensure that I can more easily pass along the information, and that the
message isn’t bogged down in debate.
|
Hmm. Well, let’s pretend for a minute that I haven’t had much time to read
Lugnet posts for about six months, and let’s pretend, just pretend, that I might
have missed all the hub-bub that might have led to your recent posts, and let’s
say that hypothetically I haven’t bought any 2004 sets yet to experience any
color changes, and let’s also say that my theoretical-self also doesn’t have the
time to read all of the responses to this thread to make sense of it. Given all
this pretending, then what excatly is it that we’re talking about?
Heehee! That was fun writing! ...Seriously though, I get that there are color
changes going on. My first question, before I can answer yours, is which
colors are changing? Is it just the shade of gray we are used to being replaced
with a new shade of gray? Or are other colors affected?
Gray was actually a new thing when I started collecting. And the things I
usually build with gray (stone castles, metal spaceships, dirt moonscapes) would
actually benefit from a variety of shades of gray. True, I will miss not being
able to have more of the old stuff. But I can probably live with it.
However, if it is not just gray, then I might have concerns. What are the
primary colors again? Red, yellow, and blue? Each of these have always been
available (in my years of experience) in a specific, classic, and brilliant tone
that is quintessential to its color. Any variant for one of these three would
be an off-tone that not only would not match my current supply, but would break
from the classic “core business” philosophy that TLC executives have been
claiming to want to “get back to” for at least two years now (no, the recent
press release was not the first time such claims were made). Similarly, black
and white are absolutes (well, they should be even if the fashion industry says
otherwise). If black or white were changed, we would just get more variants of
gray.
So in review: I am basing my opinions based on a lot of assumptions about your
question. If my assupmtions are correct, changing gray is okay. Changing red,
yellow, blue, black, or white would be bad. All the other colors I can think of
have not been around long enough or not been around in large enough supply for a
change to greatly affect me.
One more thought: The real big problem is when too many colors are offered.
In recent years, I have picked up some sets (such as from LoM and SW) that
provided many pieces in a color I wanted, but I ended up with a bin full of odd
pastels and off-shades of which I don’t have enough to do much with. The number
of colors in my odd-bin has grown considerably over the past year, but the
number of parts of any one color therein has not. The problem here is that if
sets come with too many colors, it becomes harder for a builder (especially a
young builder who is the “core” audience) to collect enough of any single color.
Only by collecting more of a single color or two or three can a builder really
branch out to building larger models or larger layouts of smaller models.
An attempt at an example: When I was in my teens I fell in love with a certain
series of sets that offered little more than black and yellow pieces. In buying
just a few, I was able to build an army of Blacktron forces for a fun lunar
layout. But if the sets were half made of a variety of colors, my army would
have been half the size.
Of course, this latter issue is a digression from the topic, and one I just
decided to add in here since the forum seems open. :)
Somehow, in the end I am sure I will keep buying no matter what comes of this
(or no matter what it is). The question will be, will I be doing more buying
from S@H or more from BrickLink?
Well, that’s my two bricks. Thanks for asking! :)
-Hendo
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The new colors, in and of themselves, are fine. Others have done a great job
expressing concern about the real issue - deprecating the old colors - and
almost all of those reasons are near and dear to me as well, including the
longer-term inability to enhance my existing collection of these colors, the
sorting and storage issues, and especially the uncertainty of what may be
changed next. Of course this isn’t directed at Jake personally, but the
official reason put forth makes no sense to me and leave me wondering what other
deeply intrusive changes may be coming.
I’ve spent over a year amassing dark gray parts for landscaping the layout of
the local train club. Completion is far in the future and I may well be stuck
finishing the project with a different “strata” of metallic-blue “rock”. :/
This is a big de-motivator for talking up TLC’s product at our public
appearances.
I’ve seen the new grays but haven’t bought any 2004 sets. Yes, it’s just a
hobby, but I am still struggling with the ramifications of this.
Steve
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I think it's bad idea whose karmic boomerang will come back at TLG in more
ways than I think any of us can now predict.
1. Compatibility no longer exists. I hope the Consumers Affairs division
is ready to handle the increase in complaints.
2. Any "Legends" set with the new colors will be a total contradiction.
3. No warning and (so far) no believable explanation just seems to me to be
indicative of a total disregard for ALL of TLG's consumers. Of course TLG
can do what they want with the product, but I don't believe that this kind
of change is going to be good for anybody.
However, it may be that TLG is looking ahead. Perhaps we are going to be
part of a very difficult transition. Perhaps TLG is attempting to adjust
the color palette for the upcoming decades at the expense of the previous
ones. If that is the case, why not come out and say so? Why has so
monumental a change been conducted in such a surreptitious manner? Change
of this kind and in this manner is very sneaky IMHO, and I'm sure many
consumers will feel the same way. I think it will be bad for their public
image and that their bottom line will suffer.
I'm trying to remain on the fence on this one for fairness' sake, but I'm
still gettin' bad vibes.
Hopin' for a recall in 2004!
Dave (an optipess - one who hopes for the best but doesn't really think
things will change)
P.S. Please prove me wrong!
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In lugnet.lego, Jake McKee wrote:
I don’t have anything against the new greys (and other colors), but, it would
be nice to have the “old” grey still available in bulk orders from Shop@Home
indefinately. The castle builders in particular are most affected and certainly,
the Santa Fe sets would probably not look “right” if they used the new dark
grey.
Lego would not lose anything by continuing to produce the greys. If anything, I
would venture to say that it would probably go a long way to calm things down in
the AFOL community if they made an announcment involving the continuation of the
“old” grey.
-alex
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Jake -
I don't like the change to the colours. I think it's a big mistake.
I'm aged 30, and I've been buying Lego for myself for 25 years. Bricks and
plates have been available in light grey for that long, as have mini-figures. I
regard both as staple parts of the LEGO range of products.
I don't regard the original light grey as dull or drab. It seemed a perfectly
good colour in the Classic Space range. Given that it was used for both the
spacecraft and the landscape plates, it seemed a good compromise for
constructing both mechanical and natural objects.
Three things in particular tempted me to pick up Lego again as an adult. One
was the introduction of the Classic Star Wars range of toys (not particularly
Episode 1). Another was the novelty of the new orange colour (in the original
7130 Snowspeeder). The third was the introduction of the more natural-looking
colours of dark grey, brown and tan/beige. Also, more green bricks (rather than
just baseplates) were appearing. Although these had been around in various
themes before, it was only at the time of the introduction of the Star Wars sets
that I noticed them appearing in any useful quantity or variety of shapes.
In my travels I've looked down from hills on German villages, and at least seen
pictures of places in Denmark where the houses really are bright white, yellow
and blue, with bright red roofs. I've seen German steam trains with jet black
locomotives with bright red wheels and bright carriages. But, in Britain,
they're not like that. In fact, much of Europe, including Germany and Denmark,
isn't (or wasn't) like that. Brickwork is dull. Roofs are dark. Old steam
trains were dark red, blue and green with dark red, green or brown and cream
carriages.
It looked like finally I could build some of the things I knew using Lego, so I
set to buying up all the sets I could find with these new colours in.
I'll admit that I thought the original brown was a little too dark to use as a
look-alike for wood. I think the new one is an improvement, but I can't use the
new one alongside the old one because of the difference. I have a lot of brown
bricks and plates, although I don't use much brown on any one model. This is
probably down to the darkness of it, so, on the whole, I'm quite comfortable
with this change.
The change in light grey seems pointless. There's very little difference, but
it still becomes glaringly obvious if you try to combine old and new parts. The
new one is slightly lighter, and although this may represent mechanisms and
metal vehicles better, it is less effective at representing stone or concrete.
I preferred the older colour. It's hard enough to tell white from light grey in
the instructions, without making the bricks lighter too.
The change in dark grey is a bad idea. The new colour appears to have a hint of
blue. This puts me in mind of the colour of the exhaust of a dilapidated petrol
engine - all burnt oil and carbon monoxide. Quite honestly, it makes me feel a
little queasy looking at it.
Again, if you showed people some Star Wars-themed metallic craft using this
colour, they may say it is an improvement. But I want to use dark grey to build
a rocky Mediterranean hillside, and the new one is awful. The older colour
suited both quite happily.
So, why the change? Subtlely different hues have been introduced as new colours
in the past - why didn’t Lego do the same again?
Was it because the lighter shade of orange was a complete pain? I saw no point
to it, as it just caused confusion with the original orange. But, I knew what
sets it came in and could make a point of buying one or the other.
Here, I have no choice, which I object to.
I honestly don't believe the company could have received as much positive
feedback from its market research as it has negative feedback now. Why didn't
Lego put out the new colour and let the public decide which it wants to buy?
After the failure of so many 'new ideas', why was this one rushed through? The
company trawls for the fans' opinions in so many places, looking for the odd
idea to boost its business. But, when something comes along that would so
obviously have a huge impact on us, there's not a single question asked.
Again, the fans are useful for advertising the brand, but their satisfaction is
clearly irrelevant to the company. How many life-long builders were involved in
the 'Market Research'? It's pathetically easy to lead a group's answers; even
inadvertently, particularly if the researchers have a vested interest in a
specific outcome. I've been railroaded into giving compliant responses several
times by poorly-run groups or badly worded surveys. As I said before, a new
mini Imperial Star Destroyer looks great in the new colours. A fort on a rocky
hillside just looks tacky. Which you use as an example will bias the outcome.
I'm reminded of the joke about the 'Focus Group' tasked with coming up with new
names for 'Ford' motor 'car's; The Ford Motor Company subsequently launches the
Ford 'Focus' and the Ford 'Ka'...
Some of the leaked images of future sets even show the company was experimenting
with skin-tone pink mini-figures in some of the product lines. So what happens
when you put a criminal in a police station jail? If he's black, the negative
publicity will bring you down. If he's white, will he always be white? Will
the set make-up vary from country to country? It's a potential PR disaster, and
there's no need for the change. I can't believe anyone even gave this idea the
time of day.
In all its publicity, the Lego company prides itself on its history of quality
and customer service. That history has taken a serious blow. The oft-repeated
tale of Mr. Christiansen insisting those wooden ducks received a third coat of
paint has been given a new twist – after all, he never said it had to be the
same colour as the last two coats, now did he?
If there really is no going back, we need supplies of these new colours in a
variety of shapes - separate 1-wide and 2-wide plate variety packs, and bricks
in separate 1-wide and 2-wide variety packs, so we can at least begin to
kick-off a basic collection. Maybe 'widget' packs of round bricks and plates,
macaronis, headlight bricks, hinges etc.
This may even be a chance to GET THE ROOF BRICKS RIGHT!!! Honestly, who decided
to put more 2x3 than 4x3 slopes in the one bulk pack? How about bulk packs of
45° slopes with all the corners and ridges and ridge-ends and overhangs in
reasonable quantities? Do that in the new dark grey, and you might just be
forgiven.
But, overall, this would still need clear labelling, so we know what we're going
to get up front, and can make the decision. The company has misjudged the
market so many times in recent years, it's still a disparaging shock to see such
dependence on narrow 'market research'. It just sends out the message to the
customer that we're too stupid to know what we want.
A company's reputation is built on repeat customers, not impulse buying. The
adult fan base may not be a massive percentage of the company's income, but how
much is it really? It may mean only 5% of sales, but that’s the same 5% year on
year. The rest comes and goes. That’s got to be worth something, as has the
publicity. And anyway, how much Lego did the people in the survey go on to buy?
Any company that treats its repeat customers with such callousness, quite
frankly, deserves to make a loss. I just think it's a shame when it's connected
to something I enjoy.
Jason Railton
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"Jason J Railton" <j.j.railton@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:HrL12I.17L0@lugnet.com...
> Some of the leaked images of future sets even show the company was • experimenting
> with skin-tone pink mini-figures in some of the product lines. So what • happens
> when you put a criminal in a police station jail? If he's black, the • negative
> publicity will bring you down. If he's white, will he always be white? • Will
> the set make-up vary from country to country? It's a potential PR • disaster, and
> there's no need for the change. I can't believe anyone even gave this • idea the
> time of day.
What I have read says skin tones have been added only where the minifig
characters are representing established characters .. star wars, HP,
spiderman I suppose if they were to do more sets. If the white guy is in
gaol then its because he is in whatever established fictional scene the set
is representing
I'm not endorsing the move - hell I'm in the keep minifigs smilin' campaign.
--
James Stacey
------
www.minifig.co.uk
Lugnet Member #925
I'm a citizen of Legoland travellin' Incommunicado
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Hi Jake,
I'm not exactly a huge poster here on lugnet, but I am a collector of huge
amounts of lego. I only got back into lego a couple of years ago so I no
doubt don't have the collections other folks here do.
I strongly oppose the colour change. Many good points have been made already
so I won't ramble too much. I would like to stress two points though:
1. Like many others, I am in the middle of a few large MOCs which will be
deeply affected by the change in colours. At the very *least*, the old
colours should be made available for a period of time via bulk bricks at
Lego shop at home. I repeat that this is the very *least* any
half-reputable company would do out of common courtesy.
2. This change of a core colour means that I can no longer trust Lego to not
make similar fundamental changes on the future (new red and green in 2005,
etc, etc). Lego appears to be unconcerned about backwards compatability
with previous years but only concerned with the sales of the *current*
year. However, backwards compatability affects both young and old Lego fans
very seriously.
Anyway, that's probably where I should stop. I won't be buying any new sets
this year, bricklink and ebay have all that I need and at least *they* give
me a choice in the colour I receive.
Yours,
Stephen Kane
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Much like the numerous previous opinions, I agree that the color diversification
is a good thing, but not at the expense of established colors.
However, the central issue for me is not that my greys and browns will become
antiquated and mismatched. Instead, I feel betrayed by TLG. For me, the
fundamental issue is trust. I feel as if the TLG tried to change the color
formulas, then try and pass it off as if we wouldn’t notice. Quality is the
foundation of the Lego brick. It is what makes Lego superior to all other
building toys. It shows that we, as Lego consumers, have an eye and
appreciation for a quality product. But, by changing the colors and trying to
slip it by us, TLG seems to have a blatant lack of respect for its consumers.
It shows us that TLG does not think of its consumers as people who strive for
quality in what we buy and build. I have always praised Lego as a quality toy,
especially in the face of the ever-increasing violent and uneducational nature
of other toys. I now am guarded toward TLG. I guess that I have realized that
TLG is a business and they are out there to make money. This pains me; I have
always thought that Lego was sort of above that. To me Lego - the company and
the toy - have always embodied the ‘play well’ name. I will continue to buy
Lego, both new and used sets from both stores and second hand sources, but my
view of TLG will always be tarnished from the color scandal. I am deeply
saddened by TLG conduct in this matter. TLG was one of the last companies where
quality usurped economics, but that era has now come to an end.
The Lego Group, I am not enraged by the shift in colors, simply saddened and
disappointed. We all have been loyal to you for years, please be up front with
us on issues like this in the future.
Very Respectfully,
Steve Hickman
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Hi Jake. Thanks for asking.
This is my first post in regards to this topic, although I feel very strongly
about it.
My biggest concern is that this is an omen of things to come. After producing
these colors for over twenty years, they are changed so that they are visually
incompatible with the original colors. What else is going to change?
This change appears to have been made in utter isolation. Did LEGO Direct know
about the proposal to change the color ahead of time? Could it (should it) have
impacted the decision? Perhaps someone thought that no one would notice (which
would be a strange reason to change a color!)
I understand that LEGO is dynamic, not static, and the manufacturing processes
change all of the time. I also understand that LEGO is a business, not a hobby,
and that radical business decisions may be required to stay afloat. But this
particular decision is a mystery -- it alienates a part of the LEGO customer
base without enticing a new, larger customer base to take its place.
The number of color choices has exploded. When I first got involved with the
LEGO System in the early 80's as an adult, there were six main colors of bricks
and plates, with the exotic dark gray showing up with the 9V trains somewhat
later on. Even as late as the late 90's, the only new colors to appear in
quantity were dark gray, tan, and green. The advantage of the limited color
palette was that it was possible to build up an inventory of parts, choose a
color theme, and execute on it.
Today, there are what, 20, 30, 40 colors? A few contemporary sets have included
two nearly identical colors, like orange and medium yellow orange. The mosaics
alone have included light- light gray, and only as 1x1 plates. Colors appear
primarily in only a handful or parts, like the silver-gray bricks in the Santa
Fe cars. The result is that it is difficult to acquire enough of many colors to
build with. I'd love to use dark red, dark blue, medium blue, light yellow, and
other colors as part of the NCLTC layout, but the availability and after-market
expense prohibit it. The colors are dangled by LEGO as enticements, or are
merely treated as throw-away -- after all, how is the average child supposed to
build anything in dark red?
Yet over the years I've come to like the exotic colors, and go to great efforts
to get more of them. I assume that LEGO has a new manufacturing process that
allows it to produce parts in far more colors than in the past. If that's the
case, why the silence on continuing to produce the old colors? Why can't LEGO or
LEGO Direct commit to producing legends in their original color palette?
I fear that there's no technical reason, but returning to the original theme, it
is because of isolation from the marketplace, and portends more poor business
decisions to come.
While I wait for LEGO's ultimate strategy (or lack thereof) to become apparent,
I will enjoy the LEGO I have, and probably buy more. I won't buy new sets with
the new colors at full retail though -- the colors aren't worth it to me.
Cary Clark
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I’ve now got my first firsthand experience with the new colors, so here goes:
LT gray is so close, I wonder why you bothered at all.
Old Dk grey is better for rocks and earthly matters
New dk grey is kind of more interesting to look at.
As far as sorting, this drives me mad. So now, eventually, I’ll have containers
with more or less the same thing (bricks, plates, and slopes) only very, very
slightly different. When taking things apart I’m going to be looking twice.
(now was this the newer grey or the older...)
This was such a cop out. The old greys were fine. I like my wife’s first
observation, “looks like Mega Blocks.” (this is an actual quote btw)
I guess the part that hurt me most was the fact that the amount of classic greys
I have is all I ever will have. So to make one of the big projects I was
planning (and slowly collecting for) means that I have to start collecting my
grey all over again. It’s the fact that classic grey will no longer available
at all is what insulted me the most.
Thanks for the forum Jake
Mark
Snow Daddy
Neumann
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Bottom line - I think the color change is a huge mistake.
Jake, I appreciate you taking the initiative to do some fact finding on
this. And I cannot pass up this opportunity to offer my views.
I have been a Lego fan since 1974 when my mother put a 653 Ambulance &
Helicopter set in an Easter basket.
And those bricks are mingled in with my existing collection. The whites
bricks are a little faded and dirty. But that is due to age. But they still
are usable with my other bricks.
The new light gray however, will not fit in with my huge collection of
Classic Castle & Space sets. It will not fit in with my Sante Fe trains. The
new color is simply incompatible.
I know, and other AFOLs will know that the incompatibility is due to Lego
changing the color.
Many others have mentioned this, but I will mention it as well. Those buyers
who pick up a 2004 set with the new colors will not know that Lego changed
the colors.
And they will assume the quality of the Lego brick is lower or that they got
a bad batch of bricks. The 2004 light gray will not match the gray in their
Blacksmith Shop. Or their Black Falcon's Castle.
The perceived drop in quality will damage Lego far beyond 2004.
The change in colors is in line with a general trend by Lego to stray from
the "System".
To me System means Compatibility and Continuity. The replacement of colors
is just one area where System is being phased out or falling apart.
Compatibility and Continuity are being eroded by:
* replacing existing colors (bad bad move)
* the rapid introduction of new colors for common parts without the ability
to get the part in a quantity that you can do something meaningful with.
Look at the roof slopes in new colors. How many HP sets do you have to
purchase to make a Teal Green roof? The new dark red is a gorgeous color. My
"unsorted parts bucket" is filled with hundreds of common parts in wild
colors, that I can't do anything with... Tub 4400 was a great idea - but it
is now discontinued...
* the inability to get common parts to build things children are familiar
with. My wife hosts a playgroup for the 3 year old. All the other mothers
ask - "Where did you get all those neat windows, doors and roof pieces? I
can't find those..." And I have helped people in the Lego aisles find sets
that "build a house".
* the rapid development of new themes that do not build on previous
themes... Life on Mars comes to mind. The System aspect of Harry Potter is
great. Lets bring that back to Town. And Castle. World City is a nice move
in this direction.
* the dropping of the System logo. Why?
* the change of Duplo to Explore. People know Duplo bricks connect to Basic
& System bricks. That has been drilled into the consumer marked since the
70's. Why change it now? This change created a lot of confusion.
I would enjoy being part of a focus group to further discuss these issues.
I love Lego toys. My family loves Lego toys. I want the Lego Group to
succeed.
But quite frankly, the Lego sets and bricks of today have lost the charm and
sincerity that they had as recently as the early 90's.
And I think the consumer sees that. They see Lego as trying to match the
marketplace with sets with action features and large action figures. They
don't see today's Lego as being the superior alternative to what Hasbro has
to offer.
This correspondance has strayed off the mark of the color change - but the
color change is one small part of my dissatisfaction. And I will likely
recompose this for a printed letter to Consumer Affairs.
Please fix the colors.
Bryan Kinkel
Berwyn, PA
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| |
|
Jake, here are my thoughts about the color change:
I have already purchased new sets utilizing the new colors and I would have to
say that the new light gray looks really good compared to the old light gray.
It looks a lot brighter compared to the old. The new brown looks lighter than
the old brown as well. The new dark grey, however, does not even look gray. As
many have already mentioned, it looks like gunmetal gray with a blue tint in the
color.
The reason I am upset about this change in comparison with other changes made by
Lego in the past is simple: Other changes in the past still fit in with the
Lego philosophy of backwards compatibility. Since the original brick was first
produced with the studs and tubes, all Lego parts have worked with other Lego
parts. Even the new “action figure” parts of recent years will still attach to
a regular Lego part.
When it comes to color, there have been slight variations over the years, but
never a wholesale change in existing colors.
Over the years, I have always been proud of the fact that parts made in 1975
will still function and LOOK just like the parts bought in 2003. I have always
thought that this backwards compatibility was the underlying reason for The Lego
Companies success over the years and the main reason why so many adults still
love the product and continue to spend thousands of dollars a year purchasing
it.
Now in 2004 backwards compatibility is a thing of the past and we are nervously
waiting for the next “change” to occur.
I can understand the “powers that be” wanting to make all the colors come “in
line” as far as a color pallet is concerned, but the consequences were not well
thought out. I strongly urge Lego to take back this change!
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Thank you Jake. I am glad that the color issue is being addressed.
In my opinion, the changing of colors is only one symptom of a larger problem at
LEGO. LEGO cannot be everything to everyone. LEGO should be LEGO. It is much
more important to be known as an excellent company with the best product than to
be in every home.
In the early 1960’s my grandparents bought LEGO bricks for their children. Even
though they never had much money, they immediately understood the creative and
educational benefits of the bricks. Over time they appreciated the high quality
and durability of your product. The first LEGO that I played with happened to
be these old bricks. My parents and my aunts and uncles bought their children
LEGO because of their own good experiences building. LEGO is multigenerational.
At least three or four generations of children will play with my family’s
original bricks.
People know when purchasing LEGO that it is fully compatible with the old bricks
and that it will last for a long time. My parents did not understand why the
brick colors needed to change. I am sure this is a problem you will face with
other parents too.
Whether the colors are changed back or not, I think that LEGO needs to slow down
and focus on what has worked in the past. Remember that the parents who had
LEGO growing up want consistent bricks and colors. They also want products
similar to the ones they played with as children such as basic bricks and system
sets.
Innovation and improvements to products are important but not at the expense of
displeasing large numbers of your customers. I look forward to the new strategy
of refocusing on the “core” products of toys at LEGO. It is a step in the right
direction.
Ben Ellermann
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| |
As both my duty as the Community Development Manager, and as an AFOL, I’m
interested in helping to make sure that the LEGO Company fully understands
the issues you have as well. I’m looking for your help to deliver the
message. To be totally clear, this is me asking in order to have answers
ready if and when my colleagues ask.
|
I can not help thinking that the company asking (or rather the fact that they
need to be told by you Jake) AFOLs opinions’ after the fact, is simply adding
insult to injury.
| |
I would ask that you reply to this thread with your thoughts and feelings
about the color issue, both for and against.
|
To the LEGO company,
I would like to make it perfectly clear that I support the addition of new
colors. (I do wish that they would get a better distrubution when introduced,
such as in basic tubs, so that we can actually build with them.) However
replacing exsisting colors is completely unacceptable to me as a consumer. As
others have stated already color consistency as well as clutch compatability are
the two staples of quality that I measure LEGO by. By throwing that out the
window you have destroyed one of the fundamentals by which I could always count
on LEGO. People always say that LEGO toys are meant for children and AFOLs do
not have the same perspectives as the core target audience. That is completely
untrue. The reason AFOLs exist is because we loved LEGO as children. The same
reasons we loved LEGO as children are what keeps us still building today. Always
remember our criticisms are out of love for the brick. We want our children and
our grandchildren to know the joy we have never outgrown. I belive that the
color change is merely a symptom of a larger problem, LEGO has forgotten who
they are. LEGO is a construction toy, by trying to draw in the children who
don’t like construction toys in the long run you are only hurting and alienating
your core audience, children of all ages who like construction toys.
-Mike Petrucelli
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(canceled)
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Jake McKee wrote in message ...
> But I know that you don't like this answer, so please use this opportunity • (as
> well as continuing to direct complaints and feedback through LEGO Customer
> Service) as a way to have your voices heard.
Much of what I would say has already been said multiple times, so I won't
bore you with repetition. I think it's a really, really bad idea.
One of my major concerns though, is that I have no way now when I buy LEGO
of knowing what I'm going to get in the way of grey. Apart from the new 2004
sets, where I know I will get the new greys (and even that is not as easy to
tell as one might think, when you're standing in front of the Wal-Mart shelf
trying to remember whether this particular mini came out last year or this
year...).
For everything else, all we know is that at some point, when the old-grey
stock of a particular part runs out, it will come in new grey. If I order 20
light grey plate packs from S@H, will I get 20 old grey, 20 new grey, or a
mixture? I have no way to tell and in practice, nor does the S@H rep taking
my order. When I buy a pre-2004 set off a retail shelf I can't tell whether
it's an old run or a new run. If I buy off eBay, many of the sellers there
are not LEGO-knowledgeable enough to tell the difference (or even know there
IS a difference). Even on Bricklink, less-experienced sellers regularly mess
up color names and you can bet that some of them will mix up the greys too.
This really comes back to LEGO's secrecy around the color change, from not
letting anyone know it was coming, to not advertising it on the set boxes.
If a color change is supposed to be an improvement which will increase
sales, how can it do that unless customers know you've done it? (duh!)
My nightmare is that next they will change white. Please, no!
One problem for a very small minority, custom kit designers, is trying to
decide whether to even use gray in a kit or not. Will I be able to get the
parts I need in the old OR the new color? Will I have to retire older
designs that use a lot of grey (like this:
http://www.lionsgatemodels.com/cat-gfac.htm ) because I can't get all the
parts in the same shade of grey?
LEGO has really opened a can of worms here. Not even worms... snakes. Nasty.
Kevin
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Farmhouse kit: http://www.lionsgatemodels.com/cat-farm.htm
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
LEGO TOWN PLANNING information:
http://www.lionsgatemodels.com/COntent/Townplan/townplan.htm
BrickLink Lego parts store: http://www.bricklink.com/store.asp?p=Kevinw1
The Guild of Bricksmiths(TM): http://www.bricksmiths.com
Personal Lego Web page:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/kwilson_tccs/lego.html
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In lugnet.lego, Jake McKee wrote:
| |
It’s only a couple of weeks in the new year, and it looks like it’s going to
be an interesting 2004!
SNIP
|
I’m still very unhappy with the change. My spending had been way up to gather
the old colors. Once they are gone most of my money will go to Lego’s newest
competitor - the after market.
This was a bad decision at a worse time. As they bemoan profit loss they have
shot themselves in the foot. The Santa Fe had to be a profitable venture. It’s
brought me and countless others into the hobby. This model would look compleatly
absurd in blue grey. If a similar model were released today I would build my own
in the old colors instead of buying the set.
They bemoan the cost of licenced lines. They recently bragged about the huge
numbers of Hogwarts Castle that had been sold. They haven’t scratched the
surface in terms of possible sales. However now on top of the licence cost they
have to add the cost of redesigning and repackaging the set inorder to
accomadate the color change. No wonder they cant make money.
It’s most interesting that the new Lego stores use warm lighting. As anyone
involved in retail knows merchandise sells better under warm lighting as people
perceive it as looking better. Inside the Lego store it’s difficult to tell the
diffrence between old and new grey even when you know what you are looking for.
If blue-grey is so important why don’t they run cool lighting so people can see
what they are going to see when they get home.
AFOLs are often quoted as 5%. I don’t know where the number comes from, nor do I
know if that means bodies or dollers. In either case the number dosn’t begin to
take in to account the goodwill and publicity that Lego often dosn’t do for
itself. I find it quite interesting that a company that is crying so much about
profit loss while turning it’s back on 5% of it most solid customer base.
Ken
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First of all Jake let me say thanks for providing us the stage to say what we
think despite the fact you know it probably won’t be good things:-(
I am a LEGO fan for the last 23 years I think or so since I got my very first
LEGO set and mainly a Castle fan so Gray is bones and skins in most of my LEGO
creations. I probably won’t say a lot of new things that others havn’t pointed
out already. I haven’t seen the new Gray myself so I can’t pass the judgment and
I know that what I’m about to say won’t bring back the old gray.
If you ask anyone from the LEGO community when LEGO stopped being LEGO you’ll
get the year 1997. So why 1997? I think the problem is that since 1997 TLC
trying too “hard” to do what it can to fit itself with “Modern Times” but lost
it’s traditional believes.
It started out with computer games that weren’t really interesting and “in
internet days” are available freely and again virtual LEGO is not LEGO. TLC
started producing wierd theme lines like Bionicles and Galidor that don’t even
got any resemblance to LEGO bricks. You can’t build with those stuff anything
creative. When I were little I had this set (744 - basic line). 90% of that set
was pure bricks (yellow and black most of them) and a lot of them. The
modularity of that set was amazing. You had so many ideas to do with that set,
my parents and my grandparents were amazed how a 6 years old could build such an
amazing stuff. Nowdays LEGO inventes more and more unique bricks that are
usefull for one purpose only. The same with Harry Potter, I mean I know that
Harry Potter was a big success but the sets looks really bad and you can hardly
make something else decent from them at all.
Another point as some1 noted earlier, a lot of new colors in such a short period
of time. I admit that can be a very good thing, but you can’t find simple bricks
or plates with those colors, only wierd unique shapes. Most of them don’t even
fit for more then one purpose.
Another thing that TLC did the last few years is of course, probably the best
toy ever invented for kids and adults as one, they made Mindstorms. Over the
last 3 years I’ve seen people made amazing stuff in Lugnet with that “toy”.
Looks like TLC stroke gold, and then stalemate, why? Your crew is not brillient
enough to develop it further? Hire a new crew that can. Don’t give up the entire
theme altogether.
So we are in “Modern Times” 2004, the new millenium, people are more lazy, they
want simple, assemble few bricks and shout I finished!!! Thing becomes shinier
and brighter, and so is LEGO. A lot of people suggested that bulk parts of the
old gray should solve the trick. Well I don’t think it’s the answer since those
bulks will be only available on Shop@Home and as we know it does not ship
worldwide. I don’t see what’s the problem to keep the old gray in co-exsitence
with the new one? 4 shades of Gray can be great, particulary for castles (the
same with brown).
Sorry for this long replay.
---------------------------
Yaron “Webrain” Dori
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From my standpoint as a castle-head, color variations is not a horrible thing
per se--real stone walls aren’t all one shade, so mixing shade differences is
fine. However, the new dark gray looks too blue to me and is therefore not very
useful. I hope that bulk bricks can be produced and sold through S@H in the
original grays. Otherwise you have simply created an occasion for skyrocketing
prices for the old gray on Bricklink.
Bruce
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Sorry to answer my own post, but I forgot about the new brown. I actually have
not seen this in person yet, but from what I’ve seen in photos that is even
worse than the new dark gray.
Bruce
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Hi,
Personally, I have no problem with the new colours. I can remember getting gray
1x1x1 clips in the mid-80s that didn’t match the gray of other bricks, I thought
it strange, but it didn’t really bother me. My only concern with a colour
change is that it will make replacing old bricks with new (not second hand)
bricks impossible.
Regardless, I think the new light gray is a nicer shade, and frankly it differs
so slightly from the old gray that IMHO most people are making a big fuss over
very little. For people to say they are going to stop buying LEGO because of a
slight colour change is pretty pathetic, and I would suggest (cynically perhaps)
that it’s being used as an excuse.
If colour is really that important, then how many of those against the new
colours, replace their white bricks once they’ve gone off-white with age?
Happy building everyone :-)
Martin
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I like the new colours and support their introduction.
I have somewhere over 100,000 pieces including a lot of light and dark grey,
both of which have always been too yellowish or brownish for my tastes. The new
light grey is nicer and I will probably just sort it in with the rest (haven’t
actually dismantled anything using it yet to really compare). The dark grey is
sufficiently different to the old dark grey that it will be sorted separately,
but that is not a problem for me. I prefer the steely colour.
--
Jacob Davies
jacob@well.com
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Despite the fact that I have a large collection of the old colors, I like the
new colors as well.
Thanks
:-)
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In lugnet.lego, Jake McKee wrote:
| |
It’s only a couple of weeks in the new year, and it looks like it’s going to
be an interesting 2004!
|
Is that anything like the ancient Chinese blessing/curse “May you live in
interesting times”?
The only product change in history that I can think of that begins to equate to
this is New Coke, which has since been revealed as an attempt to draw
Pepsi-drinkers over to a more Pepsi-like product in certain Pepsi-favoring
markets, while fully intended all along to switch back to Classic Coke in
markets that originally favored Coke over Pepsi. The big difference here is
that once you’re done drinking a Coke, it’s gone forever. Switching from one
recipe to another poses no compatibility problems with previous batches because
it’s a consumable. Noone is going to complain that they can’t use the new
version because it won’t mix properly with the old product.
I have no real opinion between the two light-greys, other than that whichever
came first should have stayed, just for consistency between old and new pieces.
I can see a difference, but honestly, it’s not enough to judge one as superior
over the other.
I’m not particularly fond of the new gunmetal grey, and I’ve only had one person
state within my hearing that he actually liked it (and that was based on the
idea of making streetlamps look metallic while leaving the sidewalks in a more
natural shade...which still requires the production of old dark-grey). While
judicial mixing of dark-grey with gunmetal grey could lead to some interesting
designs, anything less will look haphazard at best. Add to this the fact that
this shade has rapidly become associated with guns, tanks, Nazis, and
Megablocks, and I wonder what possible PR catastrophes might be coming down the
pipe. The only group of MOC-builders that I can see being wholehearedly behind
this specific change are those who build 20th-century military vehicles. That’d
be fine and well if TLC produced lots of 20th-century military sets. I can only
think of two that have actually seen production, and neither is predominantly
grey.
And as for the new brown, I have no positive thoughts about this change at all.
It doesn’t look brown. It doesn’t look like any wood that I’ve ever worked
with, and I spent three years working for a boat-builder whose staple lumber was
marine-grade 100% mahogany plywood. Frankly, it does look like something
specific to me, but decorum prohibits me from saying exactly what, beyond that
it doesn’t look particularly healthy.
As someone who builds predominently with BIONICLE sets, and lots of them, I
can’t help but feel that regardless of what happens (other than an immediate
recall of all NewColor(tm) parts), my piece palette has been permanently harmed.
Each new wave of sets introduces a wide variety of new parts, and very few
repeats of the main parts. The BIONICLE line has seen the production of close
to 150 new parts. I can think of 32 of them that have been produced in the
classic dark-grey (5 have never been produced in any other colors), 4 that have
been produced in gunmetal grey (3 have never been produced in any other color),
and only one that has been produced in both. Many of those parts would never be
produced in gunmetal grey (particularly the Kanohi and Krana, as new masks are
always being introduced to replace the old ones), and currently it looks as if
none of the new parts will ever be produced in classic dark-grey either. As the
Rahkshi, Toa Metru, and Metru Matoran seem to indicate, a lot of the newer parts
will only ever be produced in gunmetal grey, which seriously hurts the
compatibility of pre-2004 BIONICLE sets with anything going forward from here.
I’d say that the only theme that has been as significantly impacted by this
decision is the Trains line, specifically when looking at such core pieces as
train track. However, this has even more impact on the BIONICLE fan when you
consider that this comes at a time when the entire color pallete has shifted
from bright colors to the much more muted dark colors, so that the only three
main “colors” that remain unchanged between 2003 and 2004 are black, white, and
silver. Part of the whole appeal of the BIONICLE line was the the combination
of highly creative new shapes with the classic bright vibrant colors, and now
half of that equation has been thrown out the window. The one odd benefit of
this is that now the black pieces appear much brighter, crisper, and more
colorful when compared to the rest of the 2004 line. And when you think about
it, that doesn’t even make sense.
Looking at this entire situation, it appears that TLC has used very slow-drying
paint to paint themselves into a tiny corner of a very large room. Not changing
anything back will hurt their image. Changing everything back right now will
hurt their image. Waiting a while and changing everything back will hurt their
image. Recalling all NewColor(tm) pieces right now will help salvage their
image, but at staggeringly monumental cost to a company that just announced
their largest annual loss.
In light of the claim that this was all an attempt to help unify the color
scheme, I’m just wondering how long it will be before we see the introduction of
the new red ( ), the new blue (), the
new yellow (), the new green (), the
new black (), and the new white ().
And for those of you who like windows, let’s not forget the new clear
().
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In lugnet.lego, Jake McKee wrote:
> I would ask that you reply to this thread with your thoughts and feelings
> about the color issue, both for and against.
Jake,
Thank you for taking the time to solicit opinions from the fan base. Much has
already been said in this message thread and others about the color change. For
me personally, the color change means two things:
1. One of my favorite colors (Dark Grey) is going away and being replaced by a
hue that (in my opinion) does not coordinate as well with other colors such as
Yellow, Tan, Brown, and Green. For the kinds of models I build, the new Dark
Grey just doesn't seem as appropriate.
2. The new Light Grey is close enough to the old one that it is not easy to tell
which one I am holding in my hand until after it has been dropped into a sorting
bin or snapped onto a model containing the other. This makes it difficult to
sort and build with Light Grey pieces.
I generally welcome new LEGO colors as long as they are different enough from
the existing colors to actually provide new building opportunities. And I will
eventually make room in my storage system for any colors that I acquire enough
of. However, this change has caused me to put the bulk of my LEGO purchases on
hold, probably for several months to come. This will give me time to finish
sorting all of my old color brick and evaluate the impact of this color change
on my sorting/storage system.
I have spoken with many people about the color change: AFOLs, parents,
non-AFOLs, and even LEGO employees. Almost everyone I have spoken with was very
surprised that you would make a change like this to what has otherwise been a
very consistent toy for decades. I am willing to consider that I may have
influenced these reactions with my own feelings about the issue, but you should
likewise consider that you may have influenced the participants in your focus
group in a similar manner.
It seems to me that the last thing TLC needs right now is to create uncertainty
in the minds of your most loyal and active customers. Please bring the old
colors back into production!
Thanks for listening.
- Chris.
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In lugnet.lego, Jake McKee wrote:
| |
I would ask that you reply to this thread with your thoughts and feelings
about the color issue, both for and against.
|
Jake,
I really don’t much care one way or the other exactly what the
colours are - whatever shade of grey we have will be right for
something and not quite right for something else.
HOWEVER I’m very upset that standard colours should change on me. Like many
others here, I’ve invested quite a lot in my current collection of
light and dark grey pieces, and the prospect of being unable to extend
it does not please me. In particular, the prospect of having to start
all over does nothing to help my loving relationship with your employers.
I don’t know exactly how much I’ve spent on LEGO, but last time I
estimated my collection (a couple of years ago) it was hovering around
the 200,000 piece mark. I know there are plenty of people with more,
but even so I would hope this made me a customer that the company
wanted not to upset too badly.
| |
Again, we are not changing the colors back, and from what I know now, we
aren’t considering it. This is an information gathering mission only.
|
I’m disappointed by that, and I really think the issue should be
reconsidered. Someone made a bad mistake. Ploughing on and pretending
that everything is all right is not the right way to handle it. I’d
have thought maintaining the new greys as distinct (and possibly
minority) colours while continuing to produce the old ones would be
most likely to upset the fewest people. I can’t see that minor
changes in the shades of grey are going to make much of a difference
to the large market of people who occasionally buy a LEGO set for
someone’s birthday or for Christmas. It makes a big difference to some
of the relatively big spenders though.
Andrew Lipson
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In lugnet.lego, Jake McKee wrote:
| |
I would ask that you reply to this thread with your thoughts and feelings
about the color issue, both for and against.
|
My biggest personal gripe: it’s just another step farther away from the
nostalgic feeling I get when interacting with the product. The biggest reason
why I still have LEGO in my life (and lots of it), is that it brings me back to
childhood. But ever since the death of Classic Space in 1987, bits and pieces
(pardon the pun) of that quality have been replaced, and by ‘99, vanished
forever. I have only my old sets with which to wallow in good feelings. I
swear to God I still buy new stuff out of a sick habit, or simply forever
hopeful my original feeling is somehow re-kindled. And there’s coolness to be
found here and there. But it’s not the same.
Maybe it’s just that I’m not the same. But I’m not on trial here! :o)
I get emails from 15-year-old visitors to my site, talking about the “good old
days in 1999” when the “original, classic Star Wars sets” were out, and that how
“things have really changed, man.” So everything’s relative. Things change,
older generations whine while the vastly larger market of the latest generation
say “cool” and buy whatever’s on the shelf.
Change is inevitable.
But this change was unnecessary, and having avoided it would have just been one
less thorn in my aging side.
Now. You can apologize by bringing back Classic Space. ;o)
--Dave
LUGNET member #95
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If I had to pick my favorite ever LEGO color, it would have to be (the old) dark
gray. Don't know why, I've just always thought that a dash of dark gray always
adds something good to a model asthetically. It's going to take me a while to
adjust to the new colors. I'm not sure if there's anything intrinsically better
or worse about either pair of grays but with all the time I've logged with LEGO
bricks the new colors just look wrong (too blue!).
My enjoyment with this hobby comes more from building official sets than
building MOCs (partly lack of time, partly lack of talent). Unlike a lot of
folks here I don't often mix the parts from my sets and practically never buy a
set just for its parts (that's why I'm always thrilled when folks share
instructions for alternate model MOCs).
Since its the official sets that grab me the most, I honestly can't say that the
new colors are going to affect my buying habits at all. As always, if a new set
looks cool (e.g. new Millenium Falcon) I'm sure I'm going to buy it. But coming
from my angle, I can't help but wonder what the LEGO artists and set designers
think of the new colors.
I mean I wonder if all of the top set designers and model builders were always
complaining stuff like "Man, I hate these grays, they don't 'line up' with the
other colors, I wish I had better grays in my palette, these sets and models
would look so much better." You know what I mean? If the real artists and set
wizards at TLC were complaining that the grays needed to change for them to
really be able to deliver great works -- then it would be easier to accept this
as a smart move and defend it to others who disagree. Unfortunately we have no
way to know what those folks think. All I can say is that the fan model
designing wizards who post to LUGNET seem to all hate the color change. That
makes me wonder if the top TLC designers could think much differently.
In the end kids want to buy the LEGO sets that look cool and do cool things. If
the choice of colors is not coming from your top artists and set/model designers
then I find it hard to believe it will have much value and is even worth the
effort. If you give your most gifted designers the palette that they really
want to bring these products to life then you're bound to do well. All that
other business with focus groups and color studies isn't worth anything if the
sets don't look their best in the end. It's the look of the set and the ideas
it sparks that gets it off of the shelf and into the shopping cart. It's the
quality of the play experience that gets them to go back that aisle in the toy
store looking for more. If you're truly giving your artists what they want and
need to make magic with those bricks then I can't find much reason to complain.
Regards,
Paul D.
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Here is what I think of the new colors.
Firstly, from a business standpoint:
1) The color change is baffling.
In a time when the LEGO company is in finanial straits, and each business
decision it makes becomes the more crucial, how could it possibly have passed as
a good idea to spend great amounts of company time and effort on a move that
will only confuse and inconvenience LEGO consumers while doing nothing to
attract new customers?
2) The color change was handled terribly.
By not alerting consumers to the change in colors either beforehand or on the
boxes of the new sets, the regular LEGO customer will not make the discovery of
the color-mismatch (old vs new) until they've already bought and opened the new
sets, raising the likelihood of confusion or disappointment. And to find out
that even LEGO employees were unaware of this change until after the fact is
just mind-boggling.
Secondly, from a personal standpoint on the colors themselves:
The original light gray and dark gray colors have become old, fond friends.
Both have been immensely useful colors of LEGO bricks to build with, and I am
saddened by their passing.
The replacement light gray looks to be a slightly less useful version of its
former self. Being very-close but not-quite-a-match to the original light gray,
it promises headaches for anyone who sorts their bricks by color and annoyances
any MOC builders who own both original and new bricks but want their creations
to have a uniform light gray color.
The new dark gray with its bluish tone seems to be a significantly less useful
version of its previous self. It is different enough from the original dark
gray that it doesn't even seem to really be a "replacement" color, but rather a
new color that happens to be getting introduced at the same time that dark gray
is being retired.
The original brown hasn't been around nearly as long (in any reasonable
quantity), but has proven very useful. The new brown with its reddish tone
seems somewhat less useful, and like the new gray, it will cause the same sorts
of inconveniences for anyone with both the original and replacement brown bricks
in their collection.
Finally, the color change seems at odds with LEGO's "core value" of
compatibility throughout their product lines and throughout the ages. It seems
especially ironic that this is the first noticeable new step taken by a company
that is pledging a return to its core values. And unfortunately it makes us,
the LEGO fans, worry about the company's future business decisions.
-Brendan Powell Smith
PS. There does seem to be a certain futility to all this, given that the
company is not even considering re-instating the original colors. (Though with
the rapid rate and apparent ease with which LEGO has been producing new colors
over the past few years it seems unreasonable to say that a re-instatement would
be out of the question, no matter what the public reaction to the replacement
colors.)
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"Jake McKee" <jacob.mckee@america.lego.com> wrote in message
news:HrInyA.22B1@lugnet.com...
> I would ask that you reply to this thread with your thoughts and feelings • about
> the color issue, both for and against. One post per person, I would think • would
> make sense. I would ask that the debate be restricted to other threads, • and that
> all posts be rational, calm, and non-hateful. This will ensure that I can • more
> easily pass along the information, and that the message isn't bogged down • in
> debate.
I didn't care for the way the color change was handled, nor for the official
explanation afterward which struck me as hollow. The new colors I actually
don't mind, but because the explanation seemed nonsensical, the change
seemed to have no real purpose. If, as I suspect and others have also
suggested, the color change is a cost-cutting production measure, then the
change would make more sense from a logical standpoint, even if it wouldn't
make the fact that three of the most useful and widely used colors are being
discontinued go away.
It seems that many of the Lugnetters who are upset by the color change are
MOC builders, whereas many of the newer users, particularly the younger
hobbyists coming in to the LEGO due to the Star Wars and Harry Potter
licenses (as well as Bionicle), are building the primary model, and may not
break down the sets for their own MOCs--they are "collectors" of the hobby.
If that is true, the color change will not affect whether or not that type
of buyer will purchase a (and perhaps only) 2004 set, as the pieces will
remain as the original set. It seems it is this kind of builder, the
collectors, that TLC was considering in the color change. MOC builders, on
the other hand, will be dissuaded from making bulk purchases or multiple
copies of that set as the colors will no longer be compatible with their
existing accumulations of bricks.
Personally, I see myself as a bit of both kinds of hobbyist. After the past
17 years of both acquiring and trading away LEGO pieces, I currently have
about 200,000 pieces, much of which is light gray from Castle. Roughly half
of my bricks are parts of sets (if "completeness" still means anything, I am
almost "castle complete" and "Star Wars system complete", as you can see
from my inventory). The other 100,000 bricks are loose from sets I parted
out primarily from clearance buys, Bricklink purchases, and bulk direct and
go into my town and castle MOCs. I've decided to deal with the color change
by continuing to collect sets in the themes I like (Star Wars, castle, etc.)
but to not buy 2004 sets to add to my MOC brick stock but to go to Bricklink
or Direct exclusively for those types of needs. 100,000 pieces is plenty,
anyway.
That said, again being logical about it, considering the kinds of sets I
used to get to part out for my MOCs--sets on clearance, 90% off retail many
times, I doubt these are the kinds of purchases that made a dent in the
company's
bottom line--I admit, I almost never buy multiple copies of a set at retail
for its parts. Because of that, I can logically see that my 1 cent as a MOC
builder isn't worth as much to the company as my 1 cent as a collector.
binky
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I bought all four of the new SW mini sets just so that I could comment
intelligently on this topic. I couldn’t afford the sets with the new brown, so I
will restrict my comments only to the greys.
I tried with the other colours. In every case they simply looked better than the
old greys. MOC builders should be excited by the opportunities offered by the
new colours. Anyone who doubts this should build the new Sith Infiltrator. The
combination of sand blue, new light grey and new dark grey just looks awesome.
The new light grey goes OK when mixed with the old light grey, but the new dark
grey only looks good with the new dark grey in very specific contexts.
For some reason I don’t feel like my 1000’s of old grey parts are obsolete. Its
just another consideration to keep in mind when building. If I wanted a “carte
blanche” open ended building experience, I wouldn’t be using Lego.
I really hope you continue with this because I love the new colours. But you
should consider lotsa parts packs in both old and new colours to make people
more comfy with the changeover.
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This is my first post on Lugnet and it couldn’t be on a better topic. I was
very closed minded that I would hate the new colors when I first read about the
change on here. After getting some of the 2004 sets my mind changed. The dark
gray is a little blue but it’s not a bad color and the light gray is really
good. I’m fairly pleased with the colors and as a castle person myself I will
find ways to incorporate the new colors into my creations to make them more life
like giving the castle bricks different shades. Thanks for the opportunity to
let us speak our minds.
-Andy
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Thanks for the opportunity to offer my opinions on the new 2004 colors.
I’ll have to admit that I’m disappointed with the new grays and brown. While
they look great in the handful of new sets I have purchased, they simply do not
match my existing pieces. While I have a meager collection compared to many
here, I have been buying Lego as a hobby since the late 80s. I still barely have
enough gray bricks to fill a 15qt tub. It is frustrating that that’s going to
be it forever.
And from a sorting standpoint, having a few of a just-slightly-different color
is going to be a nightmare. If and when my 6 y/o ever lets me take these new
sets apart, the new colors will probably be set aside in my “Rare Colors” box.
They’ll look great as details, but I can’t imagine having enough to build
anything worthwhile.
This color change will definitely negatively influence my decision to purchase a
predominately gray (ie castle) set.
I just wish they had simply been”new” colors and not replacements.
Thanks for listening, Kristine
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Jake,
Thank-you for asking. I am very much in favor of TLG bringing back the old
colors. The cornerstone of the Lego System is compatibility. The idea that set
elements can be combined. Colors are every bit as much a part of the Lego
System as stud diameter and spacing. Replacing colors so enduring as the greys
is devastating to builders... But I can’t see retail sales increasing as a
result of such a slight color difference. What I can see is a flood of calls
from consumers reporting quality control problems as children combine 2004 sets
in with their older bricks. Buidings with windows that alternate in color. And
how will train layouts look once track made with the new greys gets mixed in
with older track? If there is anyone higher up that you can push this issue
then by all means please do.
- Brian Williams
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Hi Jake! Thank you for the chance to ‘chime in’ on an official thread dealing
with the new colors. As many other Lego fans are aware, I’m one of the company’s
biggest supporters of new colors. From the day Dark Grey debuted, I knew I would
be hooked into Lego for the rest of my days based on color alone. Teal and
Purple brought me out of my dark ages. You get my drift.
That said, I was disappointed when I opened 4492 for the first time only to
discover the colors didn’t match items I already owned. I’m all for the new
colors (light grey, especially), but not as replacement colors. These should
exist side by side with the original brown/Dgrey/Lgrey, not replace them.
Becasue of this, I have seriously curtailed my purchases of new sets pending a
preview of it’s inventory first...just to make certain I don’t end up with many
of the new colors too quickly.
Sorry, but even this color lover can’t put his full approval behind this move.
Even so, I feel the amount of whining being generated by those who only build in
the older colors is quite annoying in a public forum and should be confined to
email instead.
My $.02,
-Dave
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Surely one of the main values of a construction toy is that more bricks can
be added over time to create new models. This is why I cannot understand why
the LEGO company is removing the colour compatibility of new sets with old.
The changes are particularly upsetting because they have been made to three
of my favourite and most valuable colours. These are three basic colours
that appear across all LEGO themes and for life-like models, these "natural"
tones are fantastic. The new colours are similar enough to cause sorting
headaches but different enough to not be interchangeable with the old ones.
I don't think introducing new colours is a bad thing in itself, but
replacing old favourites and making a large proportion of my collection
obsolete is very painful. It has taken me a long time and a lot of money to
collect the bricks that I have, and I am gutted that I will no longer be
able to add to my collection of these basic colours by buying new LEGO sets.
It also means that I will never be able to get any new elements in the old
greys or brown or old elements in the new colours.
I am also concerned that halfway through a theme the bricks change colour.
It seems incredible that, for example, in the Harry Potter theme, any new
sets will not match the ones that already exist. Having marketed the HP sets
with the option of collecting to build the modular "Ultimate Hogwarts", it
feels very wrong that new sets won't match - I think there will be many
confused and disappointed kids as well as us adult fans.
Much as I love the LEGO Company and will always play with its bricks, my
opinion has definitely been soured by these changes. It does feel as if the
company does not care at all about the collections of loyal children and
adults around the world. LEGO has long been a trusted brand, but certainly
for me that trust has significantly deteriorated.
Mags McHardy
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In lugnet.lego, Jake McKee wrote:
| |
...
I would ask that you reply to this thread with your thoughts and feelings
about the color issue, both for and against.
...
Jake
|
Jake,
Thanks for asking.
The new colors are fine.
The lost of the old colors is what scares me. Why?
AFOL numbers do not qualify for a product dedicated to us, but up until now the
principles of never-ending compatibility have meant that we could tag along with
this child’s toy and not have to worry about too much change. But this change
hits us with the hard fact that we wish we could ignore ... these are not our
toys. This change proves that Lego has it’s eyes focused squarely on the
present and future (kids), and that we (AFOL) are the past. This change shows
that there is no loyalty for that past, and if there is no loyalty for the past
anything can change. One day, I expect to hear about making the bricks easier
for young people to pull apart by changing the studs. You can say that this
isn’t in the works, but after this, I doubt that the stud will remain constant
forever.
So what can I do? Complain, but in the end this is a child’s toy ... not
mine. Perhaps one day someone will introduce modeling bricks and elements with
as high quality as Lego, but targeted to adults. With an eye toward
compatibility not trendy marketeering, then we will have a product of our own.
James ‘Thug’ Rivenbark
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In lugnet.lego, Jake McKee wrote:
| |
I would ask that you reply to this thread with your thoughts and feelings
about the color issue, both for and against. One post per person, I would
think would make sense. I would ask that the debate be restricted to other
threads, and that all posts be rational, calm, and non-hateful. This will
ensure that I can more easily pass along the information, and that the
message isn’t bogged down in debate.
|
Hi,
I am in the camp that likes the new colors, and I think the new light grey may
be better than the old. But then, I have a pretty large collection of the old
colors, and for what I do with LEGO, it’s all I should need going forward. For
me, the new colors are additions, not substitutions. If anything, the problem I
have is that, even after buying one or two each of all of the new sets (SW,
Racers, and World City), I have less than a handful of bricks and plates to
build something with (more on that later.)
That said, I do see this whole situation as a problem for others. First off,
how the change affects the general consumer, the non-AFOL crowd. TLC has stated
that the reason for this color change is that the new colors are “better”.
Normally when a company makes an expensive change for the better, that company
does all it can to publicize the switch. If you go down the laundry detergent
aisle at the grocery store, you will see boxes marked “New Brighter Colors!”
Yet TLC has done NOTHING to advertise a switch which is alledgedly better for
the consumer. It’s as if TLC is just trying to sneak it by people...why, if
it’s such a great improvement? And most of the time people might not notice,
chalking it up to just another new color release (of which there have been quite
a few in recent years.) The problem is, there are sets out there with
history...the movie licenses and the Legends. TLC did a great job designing the
Harry Potter line so that the set-piece sets can all be linked into one huge
Hogwarts castle. The problem is, those sets use a lot of grey, and the floors
are all dark grey...I’m sure kids will notice this summer when their Hogwarts
flooring doesn’t match. The same with Chewbacca in the new Millenium
Falcon...put him with an old Chewie, and the difference is obvious. I’m sure
there are more than a few kids out there who have old Chewies lying around.
You say you haven’t received many complaints from Customer Service. I’m not
surprised, as there haven’t been that many opportunities yet...most of the
complaints have been from AFOLs who heard about the switch on the Internet,
because they are aware there was a switch. Like I said, wait till Harry Potter
comes out this summer...if the line sells like it has historically around movie
time, I bet you’ll hear about the “problem”. Or maybe not. Here’s a story from
my youth: I was 5 when Star Wars came out. From the outset (the Early Bird
Special box), my parents were buying action figures for me. The original
figures came with black, hard plastic guns. When I was around 9, Kenner had a
mail-in offer for an accessory pack that included 5 guns. The new guns were
blue (NOT the color from the movies), and apparently a softer plastic. I didn’t
tell my mom, and she never called Kenner Customer Service to complain, but I
never liked those guns. I was 9 when I noticed this change...definitely in the
LEGO target age group. If it’s LEGO, maybe I don’t complain about the new
colors...maybe I also don’t ask for more LEGO toys for Christmas and birthdays.
And then there is the Adult Fan crowd, which has different considerations.
AFOLs prize the stability of the product over time. That’s seen as both the
linkability of the bricks, as well as the color. I realize LEGO wants to make a
change...but people get used to certain things, and don’t want a change. We do
a lot of things in this world because of history, when a change would be better.
For example, Americans have been extremely resistant to changing to the metric
system because we aren’t used to it. You usually have to stick with the way
things have always been done, unless there is a compelling reason to
change...and unless TLC thinks it’s losing a lot of sales because of the old
greys and brown, “the new colors are brighter” just doesn’t seem to be a good
reason to change. And as you’ve seen from the comments here, you WILL lose
sales BECAUSE of the change.
So please, reconsider your color change. Put out products with new colors if
you want, but at the very least use the old colors with licenses and Legends and
in providing parts packs and Pick-a-Brick.
I’d also like to diverge a little from the topic (as others have) and comment on
TLC’s well-publicized “return to core values”. Here’s one fan’s input on what
that means:
1. The aforementioned stability. A lot of people know what “Duplo” means...it’s
a name that’s been around for years, and it has stuck. A lot of people are used
to the old colors. Please change both back.
2. LEGO makes building bricks and building sets. Not games! I don’t know how
well your Sports lines are doing, but the shelves are always full of the NBA
sets...that’s not a good thing. The great thing about LEGO is that a kid can
build the model on the box, play with it, and then take it apart and build
something completely different. The problem with the Sports sets is that you
can’t really do anything else with them after you get bored of the game
(although, I personally love the “skateboard ramp” pieces for the walls of the
NBA arena or the Snowboard Super Pipe...but then, I’m an AFOL with a sizable
collection, and I have other things in mind for those pieces.) Also, the Orient
Adventures are great sets, but they all include pieces for a game...again,
people buy LEGO to build, not to play a game. If I don’t buy the largest sets
in that line, and only buy the smaller ones, I get game cards I’ll never
use...I’d rather have either a cheaper set or more bricks for the money.
3. There’s been a big interest in the AFOL community for the 4400 and 4405 sets,
and it’s not because of the regular black and red and blue bricks...it’s the
odd, yet interesting, mix of colors and parts that are included as “300 extra”.
Problem #1 is, you need to buy a bunch of those sets to get an appreciable
amount of those one- and two-count parts. Problem #2 is that the 4405 isn’t
even offered for sale in the US (that info comes from LEGO Customer Service),
and the 4400 sold out on the Shop@Home website in about a day, has been rather
unpredictable to find elsewhere, and sells out quickly when found. My
recommendation for LEGO is that you put out more parts/color assortment
packs...as others have said, the newer colors like dark red, teal, etc. are
great, but it’s tough to get a decent amount. And few people have access to
Pick-a-Brick...like you, Jake, I live in the second-most-populous state in the
nation, yet the nearest Pick-A-Brick is 1000 miles away. It would be great to
be able to order from Shop@Home an assortment of, say, 5 of each uncommon PAB
offering, or parts packs similar to the 300 extras from 4400/4405. Include bulk
packs of both the old and new greys, and this whole color switch would be easier
for some to swallow. Give people choices on what to build with!
4. AFOLs are great champions and ambassadors for the LEGO company, without
compensation other than their own enjoyment. We’ve helped customers in the
aisles at stores, we give LEGO products as gifts to others in addtion to our own
purchases, we give testimony as to the quality of the LEGO product now and over
the past years. Unlike others here, I accept the “less than 1% of customers/a
few percent of sales” numbers that TLC gives us for AFOL buying activity (I made
ballpark estimates, and those numbers seem logical.) But it’s been stated that
TLC was pleasantly surprised at how well the ISD did sales-wise (and the
Blockade Runner that preceded it)...parents aren’t buying for their kids
$200-300 ship models that just sit there. And the influence of AFOLs goes
beyond those sales numbers. Take advantage of that loyalty and that knowledge,
and maybe consult with some AFOLs about possible future products and changes
(with non-disclosure agreements, of course.) I’m sure you’ll get a share of
“sky is falling” comments, but you’ll also find some honest criticism...and it
would help minimize problems like the color change down the road with your
customers.
Thanks for this opportunity to share our opinions!
Doug
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In lugnet.lego, Jake McKee wrote:
SNIP
| |
As both my duty as the Community Development Manager, and as an AFOL, I’m
interested in helping to make sure that the LEGO Company fully understands
the issues you have as well. I’m looking for your help to deliver the
message. To be totally clear, this is me asking in order to have answers
ready if and when my colleagues ask.
|
SNIP
| |
Jake
---
Jake McKee
Community Development Manager
LEGO Community Development
|
Overall, I like the new colors INDEPENDENTLY, but I don’t think they are better
than the old colors, and I do NOT like the fact that the old colors aren’t going
to be produced any more. Per color, my thoughts are:
new light gray: I can see the difference , but to me, it’s not enough to
severely clash with the old version. to me it is a cleaner, fresher color, but
gray is gray, so it’s not really much ‘better’ overall.
new dark gray: WOW; severe clashing all over! DEFINITELY a noticeable
difference. I personally like blueish-gray, but I think that’s really where the
new color fails-it should have been a new color: ‘bluish-gray’, & NOT replace
the VERY useful warm, earthy dark gray.
New brown: Hmmm...a little more reddish, kinda wierd, but relatively closer to
old brown than old dark gray is to new ‘blue gray’ (see above.) I like the old
rich chocolatey brown, so, the new reddish-brown should be just that; a new
color: ‘reddish brown’ & NOT replace the deep old brown. Overall, I don’t see
why the change was made; it seems really useless: different enough to
TECHNICALLY be a distinct, separate NEW color (along with maintaining the old
brown), but not different enough from good old brown to be ‘better’. It almost
looks like a color-mix accident.
I don’t know what the 4th color is, so I don’t know what to tell you.
I really hope the color change does not foretell brick plastic or stud changes.
This is a very important point, which I think gets at the heart of the matter.
I think those of us who do not like the color change feel betrayed by LEGO. The
following statement is my attempt to sum up these sour feelings: “LEGO didn’t
seem to care about compatibility of the look/color of the brick, so why trust
them to maintain the quality of the plastic, or strength, or shape of the core
brick design?” I’d like to drive that request home:
PLEASE DON’T CHANGE THE BRICK PLASTIC (UNLESS IT’S STRONGER, MORE DURABLE, MORE
COLORFAST ETC & FEELS THE SAME WITH SAME ‘WEIGHT’)
PLEASE DO NOT CHANGE THE STUD/TUBE DESIGN TO MAKE IT EASIER FOR YOUNGER KIDS
TO USE; THEY HAVE DUPLO & JUNIOR LINES. I will add, that within my lifetime,
I’ve seen the holes in the studs (like in the top of a 1x1 round brick):
get ‘squarer’ to insrease the strength. That was a good change, which is
acceptable, but only if it does not affect the continuity of form or function of
the piece.
While you’ve graciously given your attention, I’d like to add that the ‘new’
click-hinges are great in some applications, like basic 1x? hinge-brick/plate to
1x? hinge-brick/plate when they’re solidly connected within the overall
construction OR, used as a simple arm or langing ‘foot’ etc. The click-hinges
are TERRIBLE in the panel uses, like the back of the new X-Wing:, or panels on
the new cargo train(or even cockpit windows sometimes); they have large ugly
gaps at the hinge area, and the hinge tends to be stronger than the stud
connection, so the hinge-piece comes off when you try to use it:
The solution to the hinged panel problem is NOT to weaken the hinge; rather, on
panel pieces, stop using the click-hinge & go back to using the older ‘fingered’
hinges:
keep the other old hinges too:
since they also are better for some applications like non-standard angles,
changing stud direction (SNOT), etc.
thanks for your time & listening
Jeff
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First off, thanks for putting this out there, Jake. Now, to answer your
question:
Personally, I LIKE the new colors. I have amassed a lot of “old” light gray and
I build a lot of spaceships in that color. I like to use old, worn and faded
light gray bricks here and there to compliment my “panel work” add some grit and
realism to the ship. For me, the new light gray will serve that purpose. Same
goes for the dark gray.
However, for the same reason of having so much old gray I want to maintain
consistency throughout my collection. So I want to keep buying the old gray,
particularly if new pieces are to be made in that color or even older or current
pieces that have yet to be made in light gray.
Although I think TLC has excellent customer service, I’m not a Lego purist
entirely for reasons of “customer loyalty.” The reason why I have stuck with
Lego building toys over the years is partly because of the quality/durability of
the ABS plastic and the variety of parts, but mainly because of the consistency
in colors. However, if the colors are going to keep changing I think I might as
well start buying Megablocks too.
So I think it’s fine to keep the new colors but don’t get rid of the old colors.
--Dan Jassim
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"Jake McKee" <jacob.mckee@america.lego.com> wrote in message
news:HrInyA.22B1@lugnet.com...
> It's only a couple of weeks in the new year, and it looks like it's going • to be
> an interesting 2004!
[ ... snipped ... ]
> Thanks in advance for your help!
>
> Jake
>
> ---¬
> Jake McKee¬
> Community Development Manager¬
> LEGO Community Development
> ¬
For the most part, I have stayed out of the color debate. I appreciate the
opportunity to comment on this topic, I do hope TLC takes some time to
review the feedback you receive and it all doesn't end up in the proverbial
'bit bucket'.
When I first read about the color change I thought to myself "Now why would
they do that?" and "How different can it be?". Before commenting, I decided
to take a look myself and went to TRU and purchased a mini Star Destroyer.
Before leaving the parking lot of TRU I opened the package and looked at the
parts. To my eye the new dark grey color was noticably different, it had a
blue tint to it. The light grey was not as noticable and quite frankly, had
I not known it was different, I probably wouldn't have noticed until I had a
part next to an older light grey element.
At home I started to build the model when my son (who is 8) asked if he
could build it for me. I said sure and let him at it. I asked him if he
noticed anything different about it and he said non chalantly "the dark grey
is different" and kept building. He noticed it immediately however didn't
voice any opinion on it one way or another.
As I read the flurry of posts on the color change topic the only rational
conclusion I could come to as to why LEGO would replace several recolors was
based on cost. The newer colors must be cheaper to make and in an era where
many companies, TLC included, have major initiatives to reduce cost,
changing these colors could save TLC millions of dollars (it would actually
have to be 10's of millions of dollars for TLC to do this, saving a few
million has a negligible effect on TLC's bottom line).
In my mind I could see how this would play out. Imagine this conversation
between a Supply Chain Guy (SCG) and a Manufacturing Guy (MG):
SCG: You need to analyze your operation and come back with ideas on how we
can reduce costs. I need some ideas from you by the end of the week.
MG: What? I have squeezed everything I can out of my operation!
Later that week ...
SCG: So, what have you got for me?
MG: We looked around and we have automated virtually everything we can. We
have reduced the number of employees to a bare minium in order to produce
the number of bricks we are selling. We have the best possible pricing we
can get from our suppliers. About the only thing else we can do is tool up
in the Far East and we fundamentally believe that would adversely affect our
quality. I believe it would be foolish to do that.
SCG: There has to be something, go look at your operation again and get
back to me this afternoon.
MG: Well, there is this one other thing ...
SCG: Yes?
MG: We could use a different ABS forumula for some of the colors. It is
quite a bit cheaper but the bricks would be slightly different color than
those we have produced for the past 25 years.
SCG: Which colors?
MG: The greys, brown, and a few others.
SCG: How different are the colors? Would anyone notice?
MG: Oh, I am sure someone will notice but they aren't that different.
Slightly different hue.
SCG: How much could we save?
MG: In the volumes we are producing and with us getting ready to tool up
for another run of Star Wars, probably $40M - $50M a year.
SCG: That's what I am talking about. Why didn't you include that in your
report?
MG: Because for as long as I have worked here, changing colors was simply
not an option! It would be like asking if we could change the brick
geometry. It was just something we understood that TLC wouldn't change.
SCG: Yeah, true, but we're talking about a significant cost savings. Let's
get some marketing people involved and see if we should pursue it.
You can imagine a conversation like this happening at virtually any
manufacturing company (which is what TLC is, they just happen to make toys
where as Intel makes silicon). If we ever find out the real story on the
reason to change colors, I would be surprised if it is somewhat similar to
what I just outlined.
How does TLC pick focus groups? I have no idea. However, with the "What
will you make?" Roadshow which traveled around the US last summer, TLC had
about the best possible market research opportunity they could possibly hope
to have. They could have tested these colors with their most loyal (i.e.
not LUGNET AFOLs) customers - kids and families who came to the events.
I don't think the color change bothers me nearly as much as many of the
voices here on LUGNET. Granted, I don't like it and I'd prefer they had
never done it. I also fear it is highly unlikely that (a) we'll ever know
the real story and (b) they will change it back. It takes a long time to
turn a battleship, even longer if you want to turn it in a direction against
which it is already moving!
It is my belief that the people within LEGO who made this decision simply
didn't think anyone would notice. "Ah, the new colors are close enough to
the old one, no one will notice." Well, we did notice and anyone who has
been building with LEGO bricks for a while will notice too. I was surprised
to see the change credited to feedback from a focus group. Focus groups are
a tool to gather data. They should not be used for the basis of a decision.
It is also fairly easy to manipulate a focus group to get the answer you
want. If someone wants the feedback to come out that customers prefer the
new colors, you ask feedback accordingly.
But this raises a question: How does TLC pick focus groups? I have no
idea. However, with the "What will you make?" Roadshow which traveled
around the US last summer, TLC had about the best possible market research
opportunity they could possibly hope to have. They could have tested these
colors with their most loyal (i.e. not LUGNET AFOLs) customers - kids and
families who came to the events. These are the kids who subscribe to the
Mania Magazine and read it cover to cover. These are the kids who absorb
every page of the S@H catalog. These are the core LEGO consumers (and their
parents of course).
Like others have mentioned, I find it curious that LEGO hasn't made a big
splash about "New and Improved" colors. With some of the new colors out
before Christmas, it would have been the ideal time to get the word out on
TV in the US and get a bunch of 8 year old LEGO Maniacs asking their parents
for the "cool new LEGO colors" for Christmas.
I guess my take-away from this is I feel insulted a bit by LEGO. IMHO they
have tried to pass a off color change hoping no one would even notice. Once
it was noticed, they offered a lame excuse as to why it was done. If LEGO
had issued a statement that stated "In order to keep price points where they
are, we have had to make changes to several colors in order to prevent them
from being to expensive to produce. The net result is our ability to
mainatain our high quality at current price points however, several of the
colors (grey, dark grey, brown, etc.) have changed slightly."
I could deal with something like this because it makes sense from a
"business perspective" where as what we have seen/heard from LEGO to date
does not. Change simply for the sake of change makes a company look
desparate. "Hmm, we have tried dumbing down the sets, action figures,
clothing, PC games, brand name changes, and nothing seems to work. I know!
Let's change some of the colors!" This may be a bit of an exageration, but
from the outside this is what I see. I'd like to see LEGO as a healthy,
profitable business. If some tough decisions have to be made in order for
that to happen, I am okay with it. An unprofitable TLC will be bad for
everyone, employees and consumers alike.
A quick sidebar, I am rather surprised that the US print or television media
hasn't picked up on the color change. The media are always looking for
someone or some company to gnaw on. A story like this would get tons of
exposure since there are probably few people in the US who don't at least
know what LEGO is.
A quick comment on new colors. I don't need lots of new colors, I'd much
prefer that the colors which are available have a wide variety of elements
available in them. I love the new dark red color, I think most of us do.
But to have so few elements available in this color is almost teasing us.
Orange was the same way for years. The element palette for orange is
getting pretty complete now (1x1 bricks are finally available) but colors
like medium blue, light yellow and lime green are now in a state where
orange was two or three years ago. Neat colors but with only a few parts
available in a few sets, it is difficult, expensive or impossible to amass a
sufficient quantity to build with them. I'd much prefer fewer colors but
having a comprehensive palette of elements in the colors which are
available.
If you are going to introduce new colors, please don't tease me. Complement
your new sets with buckets and tubs which contain basic bricks and plates of
the same colors so I can obtain a reasonable number of them at a reasonable
cost. IMHO the smartest thing TLC could do would be to get a tub to retail
which contains an extensive selection of new greys and browns.
With the new colors, the biggest headache for me personally is storage
however, I recognize storage is a problem 99+% of TLC's customers don't
have. After all, if you store all your bricks in one big tub, it doesn't
matter what color they are! The change to dark grey is the biggest impact
to me as I have a lot of it and I really like the color. The new dark grey
looks like a good choice for space ships but not much else. Light Grey is a
lesser issue because for some reason, I don't have a lot of grey bricks. I
have a lot of brown too but as I haven't seen the new brown yet, I can't
comment on that one.
Will I buy new sets? Sure, I already have. Will I buy as many as I have in
the past? Probably not but I can't attribute that to the color change. I
am to the point where I don't use all I have so I am trying to limit my
expenditures although I am doing a poor job of it.
Since criticism without suggestions for improvement are less than helpful,
in closing I have two suggestions for LEGO should they want to stick with
the new colors and make them succesful.
1) Start marketing the color change as a "good thing". Talk it up, sell
it, make it something your proud you did. Make sure every LEGO employees
knows all the details on what changed and why (at least the public version
of why anyway). Uninformed employees do not instill consumer confidence.
2) Augment the selection in the 2004 product line with reasonbly priced
tubs (like 4400 for $10) which contain bricks and plates in the new colors
in quantity as soon as you can. Even if it is a loss leader, if your
customer base quickly adopts your new product it will be good for LEGO in
the long run.
The other option (unlikely IMHO) is to switch back. That will also be
costly in terms of potentially unusable products and unused raw inventory.
I suspect the supply chain ramifications of a switch back aren't pretty
either.
All for now. If you made it this far, thanks for indulging me. I have
tried not to come across negative but many of my comments can and should be
viewed negatively. If I didn't care, I wouldn't have spent as much time as
I have writing this. I would simply take my disposable income elsewhere. I
don't want to do that, I really enjoy this hobby and plan to stick with it.
Mike
PS: If you are wondering why this appears post dated, I started writing it
on an airplane four days ago but didn't get back to it until tonight.
PPS: Glad to see others discussing their displeasure with the prolific use
of click hinges. They still bother me far more than the change of color.
IMHO, click hinges make LEGO look "cheap" and in most cases, they are a far
inferior choice to the finger hinges.
--
Mike Walsh - mike_walsh at mindspring.com
http://www.ncltc.cc - North Carolina LEGO Train Club
http://www.carolinatrainbuilders.com - Carolina Train Builders
http://www.bricklink.com/store.asp?p=mpw - CTB/Brick Depot
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
Jake, thank you so much for soliciting feedback.
There are a number of aspects to this topic for me, so I will try to be a
succinct as possible:
1. Adding new colors is *always* a good thing. The reason is simple in that
it spurs new creative possibilities. This seems very in-line with TLC's
creative play policy.
2. Discontinuing colors is *always* a bad thing. The reason is simple in
that it hinders creative possibilities. This seems counter to TLC's
creative play policy.
3. Communication of the change, that is to say the complete lack of
communication, was handled in an extremely poor manner. There was no
external communications to the media nor to this community, even though
these channels clearly exist. Furthermore, it seems the reason for this is
that internal communication (again, lack there of) was the real cause for
this. On the one hand, TLC has extended its hand to the community by trying
to involve us in roadshows, designing sets and even created a department to
help foster these relationships and in one fell swoop, indicates that its
all more or less irrelevant. Our contributions may be small, even minute,
to TLC, but they are enormous to us. I do not see how hiding such a
fundamental change promotes our relationship.
4. While it is understood that color is the single easiest (and therefore
least costly) thing to change relating to production modifications, only
TLC's business case was presumably looked at and not those of its millions
of customers. My business case indicates that I will lose thousands of
dollars over the next 5 years (it will take me at least that long to grow a
comparable grey collection...I have not factored in brown yet). This year,
the issue is not so big as there is still plenty of supply of the
discontinued colors on hand and the new colors seem to be coming out at a
quick pace. However, the discontinued colors will no longer evolve (none of
the new pieces produced will ever be in these colors) and, therefore, hinder
my creative possibilities moving forward. Furthermore, I must now build up
a collection of pieces in the new colors and I will not have the benefit of
using discontinued parts in these colors (which I have in the discontinued
color). TLC has effectively cut me off from its heritage and the
considerable investment I have made, not just in terms of money, but in
terms compatibility; Oh yes, the pieces fit together, but I still contend
that they are no longer compatible.
5. The most important aspect of this whole situation is that TLC has taken
something that has withstood the test of time, something that I have always
looked at since I was a child with a sense of comfort and never changing
value and has now proven to me that there is nothing magic about it, that it
is just plastic after all. I find this inexcusable.
- Joe
"Jake McKee" <jacob.mckee@america.lego.com> wrote in message
news:HrInyA.22B1@lugnet.com...
> It's only a couple of weeks in the new year, and it looks like it's going • to be
> an interesting 2004!
>
> I have a request, but before I go any further, let me say that personally, • I
> understand the concerns surrounding the color changes. I know many of you • think
> of me as a marketer here to shill products. I'm an AFOL too with a healthy
> collection of light and dark gray, so I can understand your concerns.
>
> As both my duty as the Community Development Manager, and as an AFOL, I'm
> interested in helping to make sure that the LEGO Company fully understands • the
> issues you have as well. I'm looking for your help to deliver the message. • To be
> totally clear, this is me asking in order to have answers ready if and • when my
> colleagues ask.
>
> I would ask that you reply to this thread with your thoughts and feelings • about
> the color issue, both for and against. One post per person, I would think • would
> make sense. I would ask that the debate be restricted to other threads, • and that
> all posts be rational, calm, and non-hateful. This will ensure that I can • more
> easily pass along the information, and that the message isn't bogged down • in
> debate.
>
> Please understand that this is simply a fact/feeling/thought finding • mission,
> and does not mean that the decision to change colors is going to be • changed.
> Many of you have asked for the latest status information. There is nothing • new
> to report at this point. The color change is proceeding as planned, and • sets are
> rolling (and have already rolled) off the line with the new colors.
>
> But I know that you don't like this answer, so please use this opportunity • (as
> well as continuing to direct complaints and feedback through LEGO Customer
> Service) as a way to have your voices heard.
>
> Again, we are not changing the colors back, and from what I know now, we • aren't
> considering it. This is an information gathering mission only.
>
> Thanks in advance for your help!
>
> Jake
>
> ---¬
> Jake McKee¬
> Community Development Manager¬
> LEGO Community Development
> ¬
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In lugnet.lego, Jake McKee wrote:
| |
I would ask that you reply to this thread with your thoughts and feelings
about the color issue, both for and against. One post per person, I would
think would make sense. I would ask that the debate be restricted to other
threads, and that all posts be rational, calm, and non-hateful. This will
ensure that I can more easily pass along the information, and that the
message isn’t bogged down in debate.
|
They’re fine.
I look forward to getting hold of some (because they don’t seem to be available
at retail in Australia yet).
I have enough ‘old’ grey to be going on with, and I’ll use the new colours as
highlights.... until I get enough of the new colours to start using the old
colours as highlights ;-)
I’ll buy another three or so boxes for storage (which I would have needed sooner
or later anyway).
So, no problems with the new colours for me. (Except actually getting hold of
them down under!).
Cheers
Richie Dulin
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| |
|
I’m reposting this from a thread at FBTB:
I’m a stickler for color matching and schemes, building in sometimes wacky color
schemes, yes, but always unified. For a person like me, the two greys are
distinct colors, one better used with blues (the new) one better used with reds.
The creation of a new color bothers me not (although I may go blind sorting
through bricks now ). Instead, it is the destruction and discontinuation of
another color. This reminds me of the death of Paradisa. I remember looking at
the pitiful selection of Paradisa Pink in the stores (and in later years on
Bricklink and Peeron) wanting it in quantity to build Miami-type Deco buildings.
That color was discontinued (for the great part, as Bricks are concerned) from
the consumer pallate. No big loss, as my collection of pink is tiny. I will
never build that pink and white apartment building in Paradisa pink.
But, my collection of grey outstrips my collection of pink. I can go to the
store today, point to a set, and odds are it contains grey. My
albeit-small-collection is flowing with grey, so much so that I need to seek out
uses for the color. Discontinuing a color that, as the odds point to, EVERY
child in America that owns LEGO has in their collection destroys the building
viability of that color for the children like I used to be, a furvorent color
matcher.
This brighter color was done for the children?
Wow, that wasn’t supposed to be that long or heartfelt...
-John Rudy
(To Visit the Full Thread, and read the views of some other FBTB-ers, go to
http://pub180.ezboard.com/fthefbtbcommunityfrm7.showMessage?topicID=2899.topic)
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Boo! Hiss.....By discontinuing existing colors, TLC seems to be shooting itself
in the foot (again). Noting the rather large monetary losses shown by TLC last
year I have to wonder if this is simply another “focusing on the wrong things”
Sounds like a “new Coke” type of marketing move. Oooh....more losses. Change
colors! Focus on the real issues guys. Too many of the newer sets are
expensive, and not that “interesting” so they don’t sell as well. Is anyone
really looking at what kind of gray sells better? My kids (and their friends)
LOVE Legos but other than my kids, few others really have a large enough
“critical mass” of pieces to really have fun. Why? Cost. Parents tend to balk
at the cost of the really “cool” elaborate sets that have tons of parts. But
ironically, I suspect that TLC doesn’t make that much in spite of the prices
charged.
I buy an amazing amount of stuff marked down - often absurdly low. I suspect
TLC’d make more money if they didn’t have vendors dumping slow selling stuff at
whatever price they can get. Of course there’s a ton of DAMAGED PACKAGING sets
as well (another real problem of late).
My youngest is still enamored of “classic castle” - hmmmm haven’t seen any of
those sets lately what with the (expensive to license) Harry Potter stuff. Have
gotten a bunch of those marked down.
Being vested in a large (both in a $ and volume sense) collection of parts I
think it’s simply dumb. I expect all TLC has done is create a future booming
market on eBay and elsewhere for “old” grays.
New colors are cool - they open up the pallet but I have an absurd number of
gray pieces (regular, castle, technic) that pretty much matched each other - no
matter how old (yes, there might be some yellowing on the 20year old
stuff).That’s one of the things I liked - and what gave the product real value.
The consistency.
BTW, whatever happened to “build what you want” online and order the parts???
And while bulk parts are nice, a few “odd” numbered bricks might be nice -
especially 1x1 bricks - ever build a castle without them????lol How about a
revival of the bulk tubs (the 1200 piece ones in grays, black and browns)?
But then what does my opinion matter.....I’ve only got a (literallly) cubic
meter or so of Lego pieces - and that doesn’t even include the Technic and
Robotics stuff.
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.lego, Jake McKee wrote:
SNIP
| |
I would ask that you reply to this thread with your thoughts and feelings
about the color issue, both for and against. One post per person, I would
think would make sense. I would ask that the debate be restricted to other
threads, and that all posts be rational, calm, and non-hateful. This will
ensure that I can more easily pass along the information, and that the
message isn’t bogged down in debate.
|
SNIP
| |
Thanks in advance for your help!
Jake
|
Hey Jake,
I’m not going to repeat a lot of what I’ve read in this thread. However, I
haven’t read the entire thread, just too lazy I guess, so I hope what I *AM*
going to say hasn’t been said already.
While driving with my fiancee tonight to Wally World, I was struck by a great
analogy about the new grey colors, and how I felt about them.
You see, our new, ‘blue’ grey colors are a lot like, to me, the new blue tinted
automobile headlights.
These headlights, at least in my area, started appearing a few years ago, and
have grown in popularity very quickly. And hey, it was a great idea. It was
touted by the manufacturer as a great and wonderful improvement over the old
style of headlight.
And to most people they were. I mean, hey, these new blue halogens (which I’m
not sure but I’m thinking use a blue filter as opposed to a blue bulb, dunno for
sure) shine much brighter and much farther than their old counterpart. They
bring attention to the car and they almost look pretty.
And to put the icing on the cake, the once bright, shining old style of
headlights now looked yellow in comparison to the new headlights. Putting both
kinds of headlights on the same car just looked wrong. The new headlight design
looked cleaner, brighter, and made the old style look dull and dingy.
Everything the headlight manufacturers tested their design with showed an
improved headlight.
But once the blue tinted headlights started going onto the open market, and
became more and more popular, a small voice began growing in the public’s mind.
These new headlights are distracting! Among other headlights on the road,
they’re very distracting, and hard to look at!
They hurt your eyes, they blind you. They might be brighter, but they’re also
too bright! The old ‘yellow’ bulbs didn’t for most people, their softer tone
was easier on the eyes and did not blind as much.
It’s becoming so bad that in many states, my home state of Texas included, there
are huge numbers of people who are trying to get these headlights banned from
being used. Personally I agree.
And I find this whole situation oddly similar to LEGO’s decision with it’s new
bricks.
The new grey colors are blue in comparison to the old bricks, and LEGO is
touting the change as this great new thing. The older grey bricks now look dull
and dingy, and aren’t NEARLY as pretty when placed next to the new grey bricks.
But when used on the same creation, the new colors clash. They look bad, the
new grey color, to me, is distracting, too distracting. They’re too bright,
they look too blue.
And we AFOLs may be complaining, but I am sure as the year goes on more of the
public will start to complain, too. As they learn what has happened to their
collection has been made to look dingy and old in comparison, and that all their
old bricks cannot be used with their new ones without clashing, there will be a
backlash.
Sure, there will be camps on both side of the fence, as with any situation. And
I know that we most likely won’t be changing LEGO’s mind on the subject. I just
hope that LEGO can pull itself out of the rut its in, and I hope that this color
change won’t dig the rut even deeper.
--Anthony
www.ikros.net
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In lugnet.lego, Jake McKee wrote:
| |
It’s only a couple of weeks in the new year, and it looks like it’s going to
be an interesting 2004!
I have a request, but before I go any further, let me say that personally, I
understand the concerns surrounding the color changes. I know many of you
think of me as a marketer here to shill products. I’m an AFOL too with a
healthy collection of light and dark gray, so I can understand your concerns.
|
.....
Jake,
Thank you for taking the time to ask for this input and presumably to collate
it.
After thinking a lot about this subject I think that it boils down to one main
issue:
The perception that the color change will make it more difficult for many
AFOLS to ‘build.’
I have been out of my dark ages officially for about three years now. I
discovered early on that to pursue this hobby as an AFOL that along with money,
one must spend time and concentration on acquisition, storage and sorting. The
color changes will definitely increase all of these aspects and thus take time
and energy from the ‘payoff’ portion of the hobby which to me is both the
building and the satisfication derived from completing something.
Aside from the storage, sorting and cost of acquiring new parts, probably the
most frustrating aspect to me is that it will be litterally impossible to build
certain creations for years if ever. For example, if I want to create an
aircraft MOC in the new grays I may need a tailpiece that has not been released
in the new color... and may not be for several years if ever. On the other
hand, that tailpiece is currently available (at least used) in light gray. If
lego NEVER makes it again in the original light gray, there are still a fair
quantity out ther that will make their way to bricklink or ebay and these are
compatible with all the other light gray that has been made. I have around
100,000 parts. despite that I still come up short on the parts I need in
certain colors. Some times I find they appear to never have been made or are
scarce enough as to not be available... or are but cost dollars a piece. This
is frustrating for the AFOL builder and this color change only exacerbates that.
I have read that AFOLS comprise less than 5% of lego sales. While this is not
much it seems like it is not something that you want to diminish, but rather
grow. To grow that it seems to me you would want to facilitate the ‘payoff’
portion of the hobby, make it easier for people to build and complete projects.
Many AFOLs are chearleaders for the product. We do train shows and other
venues. Making our hobby more difficult makes doing those shows more difficult.
My consolation on this topic has been that .. since we are only 5% of the
market, there is a LOT of old brick still out there that will continue to hit
the channel, so my goal of a large gray mountain is still ultimately attainable.
None-the-less, the prospect of dimishing sources of new (original) gray brick
and the elimination of the perpetual hope of new releases of old parts in
original colors or new part in old colors...its just plain discouraging.
So, in closing I just want to reiterate that I think the color changes will have
a real impact on making it more difficult for many AFOLS to ‘build.’ That may
be a bad side effect of a good decision for TLC as a whole, but I think that’s
hard to say.
Ken
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|
Hi Jake!
First of all, I admit that I haven’t read all of the replys: only the first 50
or something like that. So if my thought have already been expresed by someone
else, then just move along.
Many times when I see a commercial for an item, they include the words “Now even
better!”, “New and improved!” or something along that line.
On the other end of another line, there’s the fact that when a retail producer
starts putting less coffee in the jar or less ketchup in the bottle, they do it
very quietly and hope that we (the consumers) won’t notice it that much.
In this case I find it strange that The Lego Company has made such a big change
without advertising about it. There hasn’t been any press releases saying how
proud TLC are to introduce us to the new colors. There are no labeles on the
Lego boxes saying “Includes the NEW and improved gray pieces!”
I don’t have much to say about the change itself that hasn’t already been said.
But I do find it strange that TLC has made this big change without commercials,
press releases and similar things. That fact in itself makes me think that they
are not very proud of this color change.
/ Josefin
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Hi Jake,
I’m in the same boat as those who feel that it’s already been said (and, in some
cases, much better than I could ever do). But I do feel like I should comment,
if for no other reason than to add my name to the list of discontents and not
remain among the quite masses.
Beyond what’s already been said, I’d like to add that I do not have a giant,
500-pound collection of grey. I have a modest collection and sort of envy those
who already have what appears to be a critical mass. The amount of grey that I
have is just enough to be really annoyed with the change. It means that I am,
most likely, stuck with having to mix the new and the old to accomplish anything
significant in the future. At the very least it means that MOCs will probably
have to be constantly cannibalized for their grey parts on newer projects.
I feel like I’ve been set back to square one in this department.
-Evil Wayne
In lugnet.lego, Jake McKee wrote:
| |
It’s only a couple of weeks in the new year, and it looks like it’s going to
be an interesting 2004!
I have a request, but before I go any further, let me say that personally, I
understand the concerns surrounding the color changes. I know many of you
think of me as a marketer here to shill products. I’m an AFOL too with a
healthy collection of light and dark gray, so I can understand your concerns.
As both my duty as the Community Development Manager, and as an AFOL, I’m
interested in helping to make sure that the LEGO Company fully understands
the issues you have as well. I’m looking for your help to deliver the
message. To be totally clear, this is me asking in order to have answers
ready if and when my colleagues ask.
I would ask that you reply to this thread with your thoughts and feelings
about the color issue, both for and against. One post per person, I would
think would make sense. I would ask that the debate be restricted to other
threads, and that all posts be rational, calm, and non-hateful. This will
ensure that I can more easily pass along the information, and that the
message isn’t bogged down in debate.
Please understand that this is simply a fact/feeling/thought finding mission,
and does not mean that the decision to change colors is going to be changed.
Many of you have asked for the latest status information. There is nothing
new to report at this point. The color change is proceeding as planned, and
sets are rolling (and have already rolled) off the line with the new colors.
But I know that you don’t like this answer, so please use this opportunity
(as well as continuing to direct complaints and feedback through LEGO
Customer Service) as a way to have your voices heard.
Again, we are not changing the colors back, and from what I know now, we
aren’t considering it. This is an information gathering mission only.
Thanks in advance for your help!
Jake
---
Jake McKee
Community Development Manager
LEGO Community Development
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Hi Jake,
thank you for your concern in our dislike in the new colors and for starting
this posting.
This is my first posting here on Lugnet. I am usually a quiet reader here. And I
think if it hadn’t been for the color change, I keep my lips shut.
But the move TLC made is a good excuse for me to speak up and add my opinion to
this communities effort to bring back the old colors.
Most people here already expressed my feelings about the recent color change. So
I think at this stage I won’t have to talk about any color mismatches, sorting
problems and my many year long commitment to building with Lego bricks, always
relying on quality and color for years to come.
But one little story I have for you. In the summer of 2003, I visited the
1000steine-Land in Berlin, Germany. I took with me two of my dearest frieds,
Daniela and Carsten. Both were so positivly overwhelmed of the huge
train-layout, all the MOCs and simply about the fact that one can bulid so many
wonderful and different things with Lego bricks. A few days after the show,
Carsten got so excited about getting his old Lego collection down from the attic
and we both started to make out all the Lego Sets he possessed and building up
his 7740 Trainset. As a result, Daniela and Carsten put the Lego Star Destroyer
and ALL three Lego Plane Sculptures on their Christmas list and they GOT them
all! It is quite a fortune these students and Lego newbies spent on Lego last
year!
Now I think you can imagine how disappointed they were, when I gave them the
word on the color change. I didn’t have to explain much. They knew Lego is never
going to be that what it once was.
Dear TLC, even if you lost a little in sales in 2003, I think you also won alot
of new customers in 2003, which will certainly give you positive numbers in
2004. Then again, through this color change, you will certainly lose customers
in 2004, giving you bad numbers for 2005! I for sure know you just lost Daniela
and Carsten in 2004. Try to win them back in 2005!
Think about it.
Best regards
Klaus Dobisch
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Hello Jake,
I've been unpleasantly affected by the color issue, especially because of the
surprisingly sudden and unannounced nature of this change. During the past year,
I've been collecting an extensive range of special parts in light gray, for a
large project I had planned. This is a slow process due to availability of some
parts and financial constrains, and this also forced me to concentrate on these
special parts first. I was relaying on The Lego Company for the more standard
types of elements to become more and more available, as prooved by last years
devellopment with Pick a Brick outlets. But now it seems I have to abandon the
project I looked foreward to do.
I feel bad there was no propper announcement in advance, I've lost my trust in
The Lego Company regarding this point. I would have been helped with a
transition period keeping the old color available for a while, similair to what
has been done with the change from a 12V to a 9V train system.
I support the opinion that the old grays are preferable for representation of
buidings and natural surfaces, like rocks, stone masonry and concrete.
With friendly greetings, M. Moolhuysen.
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.lego, Jake McKee wrote:
| |
| |
Thanks in advance for your help!
|
|
I just saw the new colors in person, so now I can make an informed assessment. I
ordered a few sample pieces from BrickLink so I could see what all the fuss is
about.
In simplest terms, looking at the new and old colors side by side, I prefer the
new grays, and the old brown. The new reddish brown looks all right, it’s just
not a true brown to my eyes.
I have a small collection (1000-2000 pieces each?) of the three old colors. I’m
not going to get too upset about the situation. If I had a large castle or
cathedral under construction, I would be upset. While the two browns could be
mixed, the grays don’t go together very well. I’m not going to get rid of my
current collection, nor start another collection of the new colors.
While I understand the desire to align the color palette, and sample audiences
may prefer the new colors, the real question is whether the color changes will
sell more products? NO! I don’t think the average kid or their parents will buy,
or not buy, based on the shade of gray. From my perspective, I buy Lego sets
based on the content, cost and value. These changes will not spur any increase
in sales volume. I also don’t believe the AFOL backlash will last long, nor have
a significant affect either.
So if the color changes won’t have a significant affect, why bother? The
addition of less common colors (brown, tan, gray, purple, etc) to buckets and
tubs in recent years has generated many purchases by me. I will spent my money
to build a collection of new (not replacement) colors. The best way to increase
future sales to me would be to increase the availability of varied colors.
Increased variety and availability at Pick A Brick, Shop at home bulk sales, and
buckets and tubs will drive larger and more frequent purchases.
I realize there is no turning back, but I would suggest that changing basic
colors again in the future would be a bad idea!
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Jake,
This change means that I will spend most of my money on Bricklink rather on
new sets. I will only be purchasing the original gray colors that match my
current collection. While my dollars won't make much of an impact on The
Lego Company, enough people with the same feelings will certainly make a
difference. I hope that TLC doesn't suffer as a result, since the company
has brought me hundreds of pleasant memories over the years.
This thought probably doesn't fall under your "rational" classification, so
you might want to take it out before you pass my thoughts on:
Aren't there better ways to compete with Mega Blok?
-Aaron
"Jake McKee" <jacob.mckee@america.lego.com> wrote in message
news:HrInyA.22B1@lugnet.com...
> It's only a couple of weeks in the new year, and it looks like it's going • to be
> an interesting 2004!
>
> I have a request, but before I go any further, let me say that personally, • I
> understand the concerns surrounding the color changes. I know many of you • think
> of me as a marketer here to shill products. I'm an AFOL too with a healthy
> collection of light and dark gray, so I can understand your concerns.
>
> As both my duty as the Community Development Manager, and as an AFOL, I'm
> interested in helping to make sure that the LEGO Company fully understands • the
> issues you have as well. I'm looking for your help to deliver the message. • To be
> totally clear, this is me asking in order to have answers ready if and • when my
> colleagues ask.
>
> I would ask that you reply to this thread with your thoughts and feelings • about
> the color issue, both for and against. One post per person, I would think • would
> make sense. I would ask that the debate be restricted to other threads, • and that
> all posts be rational, calm, and non-hateful. This will ensure that I can • more
> easily pass along the information, and that the message isn't bogged down • in
> debate.
>
> Please understand that this is simply a fact/feeling/thought finding • mission,
> and does not mean that the decision to change colors is going to be • changed.
> Many of you have asked for the latest status information. There is nothing • new
> to report at this point. The color change is proceeding as planned, and • sets are
> rolling (and have already rolled) off the line with the new colors.
>
> But I know that you don't like this answer, so please use this opportunity • (as
> well as continuing to direct complaints and feedback through LEGO Customer
> Service) as a way to have your voices heard.
>
> Again, we are not changing the colors back, and from what I know now, we • aren't
> considering it. This is an information gathering mission only.
>
> Thanks in advance for your help!
>
> Jake
>
> ---¬
> Jake McKee¬
> Community Development Manager¬
> LEGO Community Development
> ¬
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I doubt that I’ll have much to add to this debate that hasn’t already been said
-
Not too many years ago, one of the pillars of Lego’s marketing strategy was that
every new Lego product you bought multiplied the value of the Lego products you
already had.
Now this was a brilliant move for the company, since it meant that the product
marketed itself. After a certain critical mass is reached, the customer no
longer goes to a toy store to buy ‘toys’ - he goes there to buy Lego, because
for the cost of a single set he effectively transforms his entire collection.
Most kids that got caught up in this cycle could be relied on for three or four
years of repeat business, if not more, off of a couple of initial sales.
This system of affairs is hugely advantageous to both the company and to the
consumer. In fact it served the interests of nearly everyone involved, with the
conspicuous exception of the marketing execs, whose power within the company is
largely proportionate to the company’s dependence on attracting new business.
So it’s not particularly surprising that once Marketing started to gain
executive control of every decision at Lego, the “multiplying value” pillar was
deprioritized in favor of short-term sales. Obvious declines in product
consistency concerning color, shape, and material were combined with a
pronounced design-philosophy shift from products that emphasized “System” and
delivered a “Lego experience” to products that emphasize “regular toy” and
deliver a “Toy experience.” Newly-purchased products are becoming no more
consistent with already-owned products than if the customer bought Mega Bloks
instead. The emphasis on producing specific “toys” with the least possible
amount of construction activity robs children of any experience that would cause
them to prefer Lego to regular toys later. The task of convincing kids to buy
Lego requires more money and power on behalf of the marketing department with
every passing year. Machiavelli applauds.
Some of these trends have reversed since hitting their nadir towards the end of
the Nineties; I personally believe that 2003’s poor performance had less to do
with any defect in the 2003 product lines, and more to do with the cumulative
effect of the free sales we failed to secure because of the wealth of customer
loyalty squandered over the course of the previous decade.
Lego’s decision to render some of its most basic colors obsolete is just one
more example of sacrificing the satisfaction and continued business of existing
customers in order to attract one-time sales from new ones. We’ve all been
stabbed in the back so that the photo on the front of the packaging can be one
percent shinier.
LEGO is already LEGO. Trying to out-Mega-Bloks Mega Bloks is not going to
improve our position.
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
I hope the genius who decided on the color changes gets paid more than I used to
spend on new bricks each year... because you’ve lost my business!
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Daniel Siskind <blackened@visi.com> wrote:
> I hope the genius who decided on the color changes gets paid more than I
> used to spend on new bricks each year... because you've lost my
> business!
I'd be pretty impressed if you spent more on Lego than an entire executive
salary.
But that doesn't make much sense anyway -- do companies now _make_ money
from what they pay their employees?
--
Matthew Miller mattdm@mattdm.org <http://www.mattdm.org/>
Boston University Linux ------> <http://linux.bu.edu/>
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When I came home from reading week one of the first things my younger brothers
did was tell me how ugly and blue the new dark gray was. They came and showed
me the new light gray on my brother’s mini imperial shuttle, and my brother had
already replaced the blue/gray “binocular guns” with older dark gray binoculars.
Adult Lego fans are not the only ones who will be disappointed with the colour
change, however they may be the only ones who will express their concerns
directly to TLC. Children who are upset by this change will likely only tell
their parents, who may respond by buying their kids something different for
Christmas next year, but will probably never pass the messag on to TLC.
Growing up I was always looking for small sets that contained the pieces I
needed to replace the ones I was missing from my other sets. Back then would
have been even more disappointed about the color change then than I am today.
At least now I have replaced all the missing pieces for most of my old sets, and
I can find the color of brick I want on ebay and bricklink (markets wich are not
available to kids). I have been playing with Lego for as long as I can
remember. I got my first castle for my 6th birthday and was completely
thrilled. After a few days I took it apart and began building other things with
the pieces. A couple years later I tried to rebuild it, my instructions had
fallen apart and most of the booklet had gone missing. I managed to reconstruct
the castle using only steps 1-6, 41 & 42, the box, and my memory. Once in a
while I would take a closer look at the box, and try to see if there was any
thing I had not built quite right. By the time the missing part of the
instructions was finally found, (about five years later) I had the entire castle
assembled correctly with the exception of about a handful of pieces. It was not
until last year that I was finally able to replace the last of the broken pieces
for that set. If a colour change had of occurred when I was younger I would
have been extremely upset, and would have probably lost all hope of replacing
the broken and missing parts from my favorite sets.
I realize that not all kids care whether the colours match as much as I did, (I
rarely ever built anything that did not have matching colours, and if I did it
would not stay together long). But it is the kids that do care about matching
colours who build modles that amaze other childeren and cause them to begin to
get into lego. Most of the kids I played with growing up were inspired to start
building and playing with lego after seeing my collection. Once I had a friend
follow me home from school just to see what lego can do. Kids who don’t care
about matching colours will be much more likely to use other brands anyways, as
they cost half as much.
As a fan of classic castle I do not like the new colours of gray because they
are too blue, and do not look as realistic as the older greys. However my main
concern is that they do not match the old pieces. If they were blueish all
along I don’t think any one would have been bothered by it. This change was a
terrible mistake, you are upseting (and in some cases losing) your biggest
customers, without any gain whatsoever. If anyone from TLC would have bothered
to look at ebay sales, they would have noticed that customers were not
dissatisfied with the old grey colours. Instead bulk auctions of a single
colour of bricks usually sell for twice as much when the colour is grey, (I
noticed this before the colour change was announced on bricklink).
I, and so many others have invested so much time and money into Lego collections
in the old colours. This change will make it verry dificult for us to expand
our collections. PLEASE BRING THE OLD LEGO COLOURS BACK! I would much rather
be able to get the peices I want from the local department store, reater than
having to pay much higher prices on bricklink and ebay to buy peices that are
compatable with the collection I have been Accumulating for almost my entire
life.
Sincerly:
Daniel Walker
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In lugnet.lego, Dan Walker wrote:
| |
As a fan of classic castle I do not like the new colours of gray because they
are too blue, and do not look as realistic as the older greys. However my
main concern is that they do not match the old pieces. If they were blueish
all along I don’t think any one would have been bothered by it.
|
Not necessarily true. The entire LEGO color pallete leans well towards the warm
side of the spectrum, including colors that you wouldn’t immediately think of,
like green and white (this probably has something to do with the fact that
natural ABS is actually beige). The only colors that I can think of that don’t
lean at least a tiny bit in the warm direction are the various blues (not
counting teal/turquoise/aqua/whatever), black, violet, some of the silver
shades, and the new greys. Consequently, the new greys (esp. dark-grey) look
odd with almost every other color. And when a color can actually manage to
clash with white, you know something is seriously wrong with it.
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|
I think they're just refusing to admit that one of the reasons for the color change
is that they use recycled ABS now for some grey and black (as noted in various
articles on the web). Since they seem to LOVE the color blue (ever notice how much
blue is in tubs/buckets? For a couple years, well over half the plates in them were
blue), I propose that they found that the recycled dark "grey" was heavily tinted
blue, and they decided to pass it off as a choice, rather than something they were
forced into by the recycling process. I'm sure it's cheaper to just spend some time
making excuses for the color, rather than spending money on dyes to correct the
color shift.
Purple Dave wrote:
> In lugnet.lego, Dan Walker wrote:
> > As a fan of classic castle I do not like the new colours of gray because they
> > are too blue, and do not look as realistic as the older greys. However my
> > main concern is that they do not match the old pieces. If they were blueish
> > all along I don’t think any one would have been bothered by it.
>
> Not necessarily true. The entire LEGO color pallete leans well towards the warm
> side of the spectrum, including colors that you wouldn't immediately think of,
> like green and white (this probably has something to do with the fact that
> natural ABS is actually beige). The only colors that I can think of that don't
> lean at least a tiny bit in the warm direction are the various blues (not
> counting teal/turquoise/aqua/whatever), black, violet, some of the silver
> shades, and the new greys. Consequently, the new greys (esp. dark-grey) look
> odd with almost every other color. And when a color can actually manage to
> clash with white, you know something is seriously wrong with it.
--
Tom Stangl
*http://www.vfaq.com/
*DSM Visual FAQ home
*http://www.vfaq.net/
*Prius Visual FAQ Home
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Great conspiracy theory, but I think it would be too difficult in practice to
get the same amount of each color in each batch of recycled ABS - otherwise
you’d have variation in the new colors from batch to batch.
Oh, wait, haven’t we seen that in the purple in the Knight Bus?! You may be on
to something!
James Wilson
Dallas, TX
In lugnet.lego, Thomas Stangl wrote:
| |
I think they’re just refusing to admit that one of the reasons for the color
change is that they use recycled ABS now for some grey and black (as noted in
various articles on the web). Since they seem to LOVE the color blue (ever
notice how much blue is in tubs/buckets? For a couple years, well over half
the plates in them were blue), I propose that they found that the recycled
dark “grey” was heavily tinted blue, and they decided to pass it off as a
choice, rather than something they were forced into by the recycling process.
I’m sure it’s cheaper to just spend some time making excuses for the color,
rather than spending money on dyes to correct the color shift.
|
| |
--
Tom Stangl
*http://www.vfaq.com/
*DSM Visual FAQ home
*http://www.vfaq.net/
*Prius Visual FAQ Home
|
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In lugnet.lego, James Wilson wrote:
| |
Great conspiracy theory, but I think it would be too difficult in practice to
get the same amount of each color in each batch of recycled ABS - otherwise
you’d have variation in the new colors from batch to batch.
|
It’s not as difficult as it sounds. Well, assuming your recycled material
maintains a consistent color (clearly, that’s not happening). Plastic colors
are minutely fine-tuned, so as long as you know the specific color of the batch
(a lot less difficult for LEGO bricks than the wide variety that might be seen
at an extrusion shop), and the weight of the total batch, you can plug those
numbers into an equation to figure out exactly how much of what colors to add to
the recycled material to make it match the color that you intend to recycle
into. Except black. That’s a lot simpler. Just add a bunch of carbon and call
it good. You’ll never see the old color through the black, and carbon has a
very consistent look.
| |
Oh, wait, haven’t we seen that in the purple in the Knight Bus?! You may be
on to something!
|
If cross-color recycling is the heart of this problem, as they actually get
experience in doing so (assuming they realize there’s a problem), it should help
narrow the band of color variation, but it might never go away completely until
they figure out that the combination of replacement colors and inconsistent
colors is seriously hurting them. Truthfully, with the advances that have been
made in mold design (such as sprueless tooling), and the claims on how few parts
get rejected, there shouldn’t be a huge amount of material that actually needs
to get recycled. Unfortunately, the bulk of what there is will probably be the
flame-colored bricks that happen between color batches, which not only is
impossible to determine exactly how much of each color is involved, but it’s
also a lot harder to find a suitable color to recycle it into. Black is the
goto color, but there’s a limit to how much recycled plastic you can use before
the product gets brittle enough to crack under stress, and the molecular chains
in injection molded plastic are already shorter than they are for extruded
plastic, so you need to keep the recycled content lower than you would for
something that’s going to be sheet-formed, like the thin baseplates.
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|
Have you guys called the LEGO S@H service? I talked over half an hour with a
lady from LEGO and filed a complaint regarding the new colors. She said that
they knew of the situation but they didn't get many complaints. I think that if
more people call to complain about this issue, they might consider this a
serious issue and go back.
Also, I asked for them to replace my new colors with parts of the former color.
They of course said no, so I said I wouldn't buy any sets with the new colors
and asked for a complete list of the sets I want to avoid. Someone is supposed
to call me back with more information on this. I also think you should all do
the same. It's a bit 3vil, but if we flood them with such demands, they will be
overwelmed with pointless work to do just because they changed the colors and
they might see this as a bad thing for the company. A color change back to the
right colors would therefore be good for them.
I propose we work as a team on this issue. I know many (most?) people are upset
with this stupid decesion of changing our beloved grays and brown and it's time
we show some attitude to TLG.
Terry
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In lugnet.lego, Terry Prosper wrote:
| |
Have you guys called the LEGO S@H service? I talked over half an hour with a
lady from LEGO and filed a complaint regarding the new colors. She said that
they knew of the situation but they didn’t get many complaints. I think that
if more people call to complain about this issue, they might consider this a
serious issue and go back.
Also, I asked for them to replace my new colors with parts of the former
color. They of course said no, so I said I wouldn’t buy any sets with the new
colors and asked for a complete list of the sets I want to avoid. Someone is
supposed to call me back with more information on this. I also think you
should all do the same. It’s a bit 3vil, but if we flood them with such
demands, they will be overwelmed with pointless work to do just because they
changed the colors and they might see this as a bad thing for the company. A
color change back to the right colors would therefore be good for them.
I propose we work as a team on this issue. I know many (most?) people are
upset with this stupid decesion of changing our beloved grays and brown and
it’s time we show some attitude to TLG.
Terry
|
Yep, you put it to the man, dude. Yah! 30 minutes of pure righteous “3vil”
fury where it will do the most good: Customer Service!
Wooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! (devil fingers) They are keeping you down,
brother! They are keeping your children down, my brother. They are keeping
all the children down all my brothers!
Attica! Attica! Attica! Attica! Attica!
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|
In lugnet.lego, Jake McKee wrote:
> It's only a couple of weeks in the new year, and it looks like it's going to
> be an interesting 2004!
>
> I have a request, but before I go any further, let me say that personally, I
> understand the concerns surrounding the color changes. I know many of you
> think of me as a marketer here to shill products. I'm an AFOL too with a
> healthy collection of light and dark gray, so I can understand your concerns.
>
> As both my duty as the Community Development Manager, and as an AFOL, I'm
> interested in helping to make sure that the LEGO Company fully understands
> the issues you have as well. I'm looking for your help to deliver the
> message. To be totally clear, this is me asking in order to have answers
> ready if and when my colleagues ask.
>
> I would ask that you reply to this thread with your thoughts and feelings
> about the color issue, both for and against. One post per person, I would
> think would make sense. I would ask that the debate be restricted to other
> threads, and that all posts be rational, calm, and non-hateful. This will
> ensure that I can more easily pass along the information, and that the
> message isn't bogged down in debate.
>
> Please understand that this is simply a fact/feeling/thought finding mission,
> and does not mean that the decision to change colors is going to be changed.
> Many of you have asked for the latest status information. There is nothing
> new to report at this point. The color change is proceeding as planned, and
> sets are rolling (and have already rolled) off the line with the new colors.
>
> But I know that you don't like this answer, so please use this opportunity
> (as well as continuing to direct complaints and feedback through LEGO
> Customer Service) as a way to have your voices heard.
>
> Again, we are not changing the colors back, and from what I know now, we
> aren’t considering it. This is an information gathering mission only.
>
> Thanks in advance for your help!
>
> Jake
>
> ---¬
> Jake McKee¬
> Community Development Manager¬
> LEGO Community Development
> ¬
Chiming in late, but then my biggest concerns are only just arising....
New colors good - retiring old staple colors bad. That said, while it may change
things, it's not something I'll discontinue my hobby over. In fact, I'm looking
forward to it in some ways.
However, what should be a moment of frustration as we adjust to the news looks
as though it will be 1-2 years or more of frustration. We understand that 'all
new production' will be in the new colors, but LEGO consumers can only readily
identify 'new production' when a new set is released. What about existing sets?
bulk packs? mosaic kits?
If I were a consumer looking to embrace this color change (which I am) one of
the first things I would be drooling over the thought of is an ISD in the new
shade. I realize there may be no way for LEGO to tell right now if there will
ever be another production run of the ISD, but as it stands now consumers won't
know if it ever does happen. Even if we hear online that someone got their ISD
in the new gray that is no guarantee that the next order placed will be the
same. Will new and old production mingle in the warehouse? How about re-sellable
returns?
Bulk packs are another way people are going to try and stock up on the new
shades (and/or old shades). Anyone ordering bulk packs of grey bricks is likely
to be upset if they get a combination of colors within or between sizes. But how
are we to know in advance that is going to happen? Will we have to go through
the same thing if we try to return and replace them?
I for one am extremely anxious to get mosaic kits with the new shades. Again, I
have no idea when I'll be able to do so, if all colors will transition together,
or if I can expect consistency from set to set or order to order. To deliver two
shades of the same grey within a mosaic kit would largely spoil the concept so
TLC has got to have some plan in mind for inventory control, yes?
I think what this all boils down to is a request for better communication from
LEGO. Please do something to let us know what to expect and identify what we'll
get when we place an order (for items not obviously '2004'.) Plan for a clean
cut-off date, send leftover 'old production' to the retail outlets, adjust
product descriptions during this transition time, have a checklist from the
warehouse readily available to your call center, something, anything.... just
don't leave us playing guessing games or the frustration, confusion, and
alienation some fans are feeling is only going to continue.
my 2 cents,
John
#388
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