Debate : 19423


Off-Topic / Debate / 19423

Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Richard Marchetti

Recent articles that intrigued me: ---...--- BBC brings the heat: "War with Iraq 'could be illegal'" (URL) Flatly Declares No Connection Between Saddam and al Qaeda: (URL) a joke) Associated Press reports "thousands", while BBC reports "millions" of (...) (22 years ago, 16-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Orion Pobursky

(...) This guy really touched a nerve with me. As a military member I know that we do what we're told and the consequences of not doing that is severe punishment including possible jail time. The writer of the article above essentially states that (...) (22 years ago, 16-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Dave Schuler

(...) For my part, I can think of no better way to support our troops than to demand that they not be placed in harm's way for an arbitrary, unjustified war. Dave! (22 years ago, 17-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Scott Arthur

(...) I thought "I was only following orders" was no excuse? Scott A (22 years ago, 17-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Richard Marchetti

Orion: It's a vexed issue. If you read some of the other articles you know that the legality of this possible war with Iraq is very much in question. If you are a catholic I think the Pope just gave you the basis for objecting to war on religious (...) (22 years ago, 17-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Orion Pobursky

(...) The bottom line is this: When I joined the Navy six and a half years ago I took an oath. Basically, among other things, it said I would obey the President and other officers appointed above me. Do you renig on an oath simply becuse someone (...) (22 years ago, 17-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Scott Arthur

(...) It may seem strange, but there are Iraqis with mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, sons, daughters, husbands, wives, and co-workers too. I expect the vast majority of them mean you no harm; most of the rest are just following orders like (...) (22 years ago, 17-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Orion Pobursky

Note to all to read this thread. I'm am not going to contribute this topic any further for reasons of my own sanity. Most of use have already made our opinions known and, if you're like me, stubborn enough to stick to you guns even in the face of (...) (22 years ago, 17-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Richard Marchetti

Orion: I believe we have both the means and the intelligence (spy-style intelligence) to go after A.Q. (a well-known terrorist organization that claims at least some part in the WTC disaster and that has few, if any, sympathizers) -- but we do not (...) (22 years ago, 17-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Bruce Schlickbernd

(...) Just remember you are responsible for your actions and act accordingly. (...) I'm not quite sure what your point is here. That you regard 25% as foolish for thinking such? That you think the 25% actually believe that there is an imminent (...) (22 years ago, 17-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) Are not the consequences of doing what you're told also severe? Obviously, I don't know anything about what you do for the services, so this is hypothetical. But after enacting butchery on countless innocents, you will have a lifetime to (...) (22 years ago, 17-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Richard Marchetti

(...) "International War Crimes Court Is Inaugurated, but Without U.S." (URL) portions: ---...--- Since abrogating the Clinton administration's signature last year, the Bush administration has persuaded 24 countries to sign bilateral agreements with (...) (22 years ago, 17-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Richard Marchetti

Ladies and Gentlemen, it's laugh or cry time: (by the rockets red glare...) ---...--- [today's performance only, the part of Billy is played by the President of the United States -- George W. Bush, Jr.!] (Spoken) Roxie, you got nothing to worry (...) (22 years ago, 18-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Dave Schuler

(...) **snip of a little razzle dazzle** (And I don't care what movie that song shows up in; I'll always remember Joel Grey singing it on The Muppet Show) Here's something likewise keeping in the spirit of upcoming events: ---...--- Dulce Et Decorum (...) (22 years ago, 18-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Fredrik Glöckner

(...) By the way, I remember that during his speach, Bush threatened to prosecute Iraqi soldiers for war crimes if they fought against "the coalition" during a forthcoming war. I find this a bit odd, as he does not cooperate with the war crime (...) (22 years ago, 18-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Richard Marchetti

Fredrik, my dear... "Cooperate"?!!! He has tried for and achieved apparent exemption from the long reach of the Hague! Why mince words about it? -- Hop-Frog (22 years ago, 19-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Mike Petrucelli

(...) Does anyone know why? Lets see; no right to fair jury, no right to language translator, no right to legal counsel, and you can be imprisoned in any country the court chooses. This applies to civilians as well as military personel. I don't (...) (22 years ago, 19-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Pedro Silva

(...) Define "fair jury". (...) That'd be a première, in UN instances... Anyway, why are you complaining? It's not as if the judges were to speak anything other than English among themselves! :-) (...) Please elaborate. What are the guaranties for (...) (22 years ago, 19-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Larry Pieniazek

(...) Ya, you're right. What the US is doing to the terrorism detainees, as you describe above, is shocking and disgusting. Thanks for reminding us. Oh wait, you're talking about the ICC, aren't you? I got confused for a minute (...) It does? Not if (...) (22 years ago, 19-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Dave Schuler

(...) My understanding is that "enemy comabatant" is a term coined by the Dubya administration as a convenient way of referring to people that the admin found inconvenient. Since no war has been formally declared, the US can (nominally) claim not to (...) (22 years ago, 19-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Richard Marchetti

Interestingly, none of these objections seem to bother other participating countries, and it didn't bother Clinton any either (last time I checked he was a red blooded american also, and hey at least he showed signs of life) -- it bothers Shrub!!! (...) (22 years ago, 19-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Spencer Nowak

(...) Show me hard evidence that proves we are only there for oil. otherwise i will regard you as just another empty-headed anti-war protester jumping on the no blood for oil bandwagon for lack of a better objection.... (22 years ago, 21-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Richard Marchetti

(...) My current proof is the currently skewed state of affairs that leans our govt. very heavily in the direction of multinational corporations. These corporations are stealing our collective wealth through tax breaks, reporting fraud, stock fraud, (...) (22 years ago, 21-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) So, I wonder why you require "hard" evidence for one side of the coin, but such amazingly soft (ie clearly fabricated) evidence for the other. (...) What better objection could there be? You are essentially claiming that blood is a fine (...) (22 years ago, 21-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Dave Schuler

(...) Just sit tight, Chris--after Spencer spends about six quarts of his own, then the market will probably run dry for him. Dave! (22 years ago, 21-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Spencer Nowak

(...) I could say the same... why do we need "hard evidence" to go to war(which, by the way, we have given saddam ample chances to avoid by simply telling us what he has) and "soft evidence" to stay home and let a US hating dictator get wmds? (22 years ago, 21-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Dave Schuler

(...) Are you out of your mind? That would be like me saying: 1. I believe Spencer plans to acquire a gun (though I have no evidence of this) 2. I believe that Spencer dislikes me intensely. Therefore 3. I am justified in lauching a mammoth (...) (22 years ago, 21-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —John Neal

(...) People like Saddam Hussein? Emphatically YES! JOHN (22 years ago, 21-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Larry Pieniazek

(...) Yes, because a UN weapons inspector says something, that makes it true. That's the same bunch that includes members who tipped off the Iraqis that inspections were about to happen so that they could shift stuff around. (...) You know, for (...) (22 years ago, 21-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —John Neal

(...) Thank you for saying so! I have about had it with RM's silly conspiratorial blathering. JOHN (22 years ago, 21-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Larry Pieniazek

(...) Well, you're welcome, but I wish you would have left at least one more sentence of what I posted, *the very next one* in fact: "Ashcroft (and his bunch) actually ARE out there undermining liberty" This is true, you can't argue it, so maybe (...) (22 years ago, 21-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —John Neal

(...) I snipped it because it's another debate. JOHN (22 years ago, 21-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Richard Marchetti

(...) Sorry Larry, you're thinking is too simplistic in my view. You ascribe everything to stupidity and not everything works that way. What is their motive? Or had you forgotten that most people have motives for the things that they do? And what? (...) (22 years ago, 22-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Bruce Schlickbernd

(...) "Do not ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity." -Richard Feynmann (...) The French are upset because of Dubya's stOOpid actions. I'd describe his "diplomacy" as perhaps the worst I've ever seen (and this from a (...) (22 years ago, 22-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Richard Marchetti

(...) Wasn't it Napoleon Bonaparte that said something like this? (...) It cannot be that he rolls out of bed each morning and says to himself: "God, I am so stupid I think I'll declare war today." He has to have motive. He has to think there is (...) (22 years ago, 22-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Spencer Nowak

(...) Hypothetical Situation: Let ! =a group of terrorists Let @ =an autocratic country with wmds, built or in progress. Also, they dont have a single resource anyone would want Let # =a country that the 2 above hate with every fiber of their being (...) (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Richard Marchetti

Did you not read how Bush and Blair both admit they cannot connect AQ and SH? It's on the white house's own pages. So your hypothetical is just that -- entirely imaginary. And I have yet to see where Iraq has these fearful weapons of mass (...) (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —John Neal

(...) hehe maybe not for long: (URL) (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Larry Pieniazek

(...) (URL) didn't because it's too early to know whether there's anything to this. Maybe it's a false alarm... Of course with our great powers of fakery, all part of the Vast Conspiracy(tm), it wouldn't take more than a day or two to knock up a 100 (...) (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Richard Marchetti

Fox is hardly a cite I consider without bias -- I'll wait until at least a few other sources join in confirming the story. And while I don't claim any conspiracy exists to make Saddam appear to be a bad guy (I mean, I accept that he is a bad guy), (...) (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) Modified hypothetical: Let a = whacky terrorist group run by a psychopath. Let b = nuke-bearing dictatorship run by a guy who likes living the good life and pretty evil, but not plausibly insane. Let c = big country that they both hate. So, a (...) (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Spencer Nowak

In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Christopher L. Weeks writes:> (...) Not necessarily nukes. they know c would annihilate them for that. however a terrorist group *could* come up with chem or bio weapons themselves, and therefore using them would hurt c (...) (22 years ago, 26-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Richard Marchetti

(...) Something we agree on. Given the "problems" with our itelligence, why would you rather err on the side of war? Kill 'em all, let god sort 'em out? Perhaps you can explain it better... -- Hop-Frog (22 years ago, 26-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —David Koudys

(...) Because one way people don't die. Inspections and containment was working. The other way people die--bombing and fighting. There had better be a physical "smoking gun" for me to consider the very option of thinking about starting a war. And if (...) (22 years ago, 21-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Larry Pieniazek

(...) False. It was doing no such thing. (...) False again. Tell that to the Kurds, er, Shiites, er Chaldeans he gassed/starved/paved over during the peace Hussein's imposition of his will on his oppressed people cost how many hundreds of thousands (...) (22 years ago, 21-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Rats Leaving the Sinking Ship (Re: Just Teasing...) —Richard Marchetti

"Top White House anti-terror boss resigns" (URL) March 19 (UPI) -- The top National Security Council official in the war on terror resigned this week for what a NSC spokesman said were personal reasons, but intelligence sources say the move reflects (...) (22 years ago, 20-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Rats Leaving the Sinking Ship (Re: Just Teasing...) —Bruce Schlickbernd

(...) This actually sums up a lot of the reasons I oppose this war. It is an unnecessary distraction. Even with UN sanctioning, it is terribly mis-timed. This should not be our focus; this war has diluted our efforts against Al Qaeda at best, and is (...) (22 years ago, 20-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Rats Leaving the Sinking Ship (Re: Just Teasing...) —Richard Marchetti

(...) Exactly. I love peace, but I am not a pacificist. When terror comes home they can expect a fight, more likely a serious beating, and possibly death. And they will have gotten what they so richly deserved. From the word go on 911, I have stated (...) (22 years ago, 20-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Rats Leaving the Sinking Ship (Re: Just Teasing...) —John Neal

(...) From the same article: "I found his resignation shocking," said one official closely involved in the domestic fight on terror. "And it might reflect a certain frustration over the allocation of resources. But I'm not positive that there's a (...) (22 years ago, 29-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Whose Wealth is it Again? (Re: Just Teasing...) —Richard Marchetti

"Iraq Oil Wells May Have Been Set Ablaze" (URL) before the war began, the Pentagon (news - web sites) expressed fears that Saddam Hussein had planned to sabotage Iraq's oil fields by booby-trapping wells so one person could blow them up. A loss of (...) (22 years ago, 20-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Shame on Us (was Re: Just Teasing...) —Richard Marchetti

"Opening War Salvos Spark Global Protests" (URL) and Australia, the only nations to commit significant numbers of troops to the U.S.-led effort, resolutely stuck by Washington. ---...--- So, that's basically the English speaking world except for (...) (22 years ago, 20-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Richard Marchetti

I previously noted: (...) Q: One question for you both. Do you believe that there is a link between Saddam Hussein, a direct link, and the men who attacked on September the 11th? THE PRESIDENT [Bush]: I can't make that claim. THE PRIME MINISTER (...) (22 years ago, 21-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) What I don't get about all this is how much we have failed to appreciate the 11 September 2001 attack and what it could do for us. We were gifted with the opportunity to walk in the other guy's shoes. We were, just for a day or two, knocked (...) (22 years ago, 21-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Dave Schuler

(...) I've been wondering about that point for a few weeks, and it's given me perspective on a similar issue from a few decades ago (my apologies to those among us who've already heard this story): Anyone who invokes Godwin's Law with the same zeal (...) (22 years ago, 21-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Larry Pieniazek

I'm sort of not following you here, Chris. (...) I don't know if we *have* but some think we *can*...see (URL) gives a link making the argument that working to overthrow tyrants is useful. Again, I'm not sure I agree with that writer's view. Do you? (...) (22 years ago, 21-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) You and I agree that we should not be contributing aid to the worst nations in the world. It is a disgrace that China is a PNTR partner. Supporting Israel with no strings attached (and maybe at all) is also bad. Being there to help them up (...) (22 years ago, 21-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —John Neal

(...) You contradict yourself. How would letting Israel fall *decrease* their misery? (...) Very good question. The answer is because of the UN. We didn't have a mandate to enter Iraq; only to free Kuwait. We *should* have continued on to Baghdad (...) (22 years ago, 21-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) Making Israel play by "the rules" would, I think, be the first step in reaching a peace in the region. Most of the Arab world objects to the way that Israel is treated to a double standard. I know you just don't think that's a reasonable (...) (22 years ago, 22-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —John Neal

(...) What you are failing to place into the Israeli question is Palestinian terrorism. Most if not all of Israeli aggression is in retaliation for terrorism. What is going to bring peace in that region is for the Palestinians to eschew terror and (...) (22 years ago, 22-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) And most if not all of the Palestinian aggression is in retaliation for Israeli terrorism. I'm not even saying that you're wrong. I think you're right. But that doesn't change the rightness of what I said. They are in a cycle of violence (...) (22 years ago, 22-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —John Neal

(...) <snip> (...) Palestinian "aggression"? You can't even bring yourself to call it "terrorism". I don't really want to go here, though, because I fear it is an issue of differing perspectives. (...) Agreed. (...) Well, I bet you can guess how (...) (22 years ago, 23-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Frank Filz

(...) Hmm, in a "totally open and free US society" (which we've never had, or certainly haven't had this century), I don't think nuking one city would collapse us. See, the thing is, with a totally open and free society, the power is sufficiently (...) (22 years ago, 23-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —John Neal

(...) Come on, Frank, you can't possibly make the comparison of the incineration of 2 *buildings* to the incineration of an entire *city*. And I wasn't talking about just *any* city; I specifically meant Washington, D.C. And what if the attack came (...) (22 years ago, 23-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Richard Marchetti

John: You really will just argue inanely over almost anything won't you? Frank's post was so reasonable, so even-handed as to almost be void of interesting comment. At face value, and as history has taught us again and again -- taking out a single (...) (22 years ago, 23-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —John Neal

(...) Speaking of trolls... (...) Please cite for me examples in history where the taking out of a capital by a nuclear weapon has been manifestly unimportant in the grand scheme of things. (...) So, let me get this straight-- you assert that the (...) (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Mike Petrucelli

(...) No that would not end our society as we know it. It would go a long way toward restoring the government though. At the very least we should try to go back to the pre-FDR days. Ask your grandparents about how the elected representatives used (...) (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Dave Schuler

(...) In the interest of furthering my understanding, are you talking about the same time period in which civil rights were non-existent, Presidents could serve an unlimited number of terms, the securities industry was wholly (and tragically) (...) (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) While I agree with the trend of your note as a whole -- times have never been perfect and nostalgia is often silly, This one point seems weird. I would rather that people have the ability to trick me losing my money than to take it from me at (...) (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Dave Schuler

(...) I presume you're talking about the government in the latter case, but can you rephrase that without the "at gunpoint" phrase? There's no initiation of force involved; it's simple enforcement of social contract. You may disagree with the (...) (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) False. Contracts are things agreed to by both parties. I was never given a choice to reject taxes and the attendant benefits. I am no more _morally_ bound by this "social contract" than were the Africans enslaved in the south through their (...) (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Dave Schuler

(...) That is absolutely true. (...) By remaining in the country (and partaking of the benefits of government programs) you have willingingly entered the contract (or your parents entered you into the contract, which you must take up with them). (...) (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —David Koudys

(...) I think there's a big difference b/w the two--in your case, the services you receive via 'your tax dollar' aid you as well as your fellow man. Sure you were 'born into' the agreement, or 'moved into' the agreement when you become a citizen of (...) (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Larry Pieniazek

(...) What do these goods have to do with taxes? Except for the second order effect of a legal framework to protect contracts, that is. There's no reason any of these have to be government provided. You picked the wrong goods to praise government (...) (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) Right, and the "taxes" paid by the slaves -- in the form of 100% of their productivity -- aided them as well as their fellows. They were fed, clothed, and housed without ever having to worry about those things. And in some cases, the system (...) (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Dave Schuler

(...) You've got to stop using the slaves as an example, because you're hurting your argument. The slaves were forcibly removed from their homeland and forcibly kept at work here as property. They had no opportunity to renounce citizenship and leave (...) (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Christopher L. Weeks

What are the criteria used to determine if an analogy is adequate? No analogy will be perfect because it isn't the exact situation that is being discussed. It is a tool used to point out certain particular similarities that are important to the (...) (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Dave Schuler

(...) Oh, come on. An analogy is inadequate if the salient characteristic likened between the two subjects is fundamentally distinct, as in the case of a slave who cannot leave the US and a citizen who can freely expatriate (and renounce that same (...) (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Bruce Schlickbernd

(...) This ia always an interesting quandry. The contract has always been viewed as new-generation-enforcable, but is that correct? Are you bound by your parent's contract (or as far back as necessary to either the original constitution or your (...) (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) And I pay my taxes and vote my concience. I just think it's messed up to call it a contract. It's a dodge. I'd be happier if we just enunciated the fact that we are partially or sort-of owned by the state. As long as they control our right to (...) (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Dave Schuler

(...) Rather than simply asserting that it is not a contract, you must demonstrate why it is not a contract. You can't just say "it's a dodge" and pretend to have refuted it. (...) The slaves who were freed (and thereafter remained in the US) (...) (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Bruce Schlickbernd

(...) As I said, morally you may be correct, but practically, I see no better way to proceed. It's not an ideal contract, because you are bound by your predessor's contract, not one you made for yourself. I must admit I categorically reject the (...) (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Larry Pieniazek

(...) The problem is there's no free market in governmental systems at the moment, and the present players collude to keep it that way. (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Bruce Schlickbernd

(...) That doesn't really address the topic at hand (and perhaps that was your intent). -->Bruce<-- (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Larry Pieniazek

(...) Sure it does. You can't argue that we have the right of choice if there's no free market (of ideas, or of systems) to choose from, except unless you argue that we have to lump the choices, constrained as they are by the International (...) (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Bruce Schlickbernd

(...) You seem to be confusing between choosing from what's available, with having a right to choose from what's available, with somehow expecting that you should be offered whatever happens to suit your fancy. So, yes, I can argue it. (...) I'm not (...) (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Larry Pieniazek

(...) Sorry if I haven't been clear. I don't have any expectation that the market will provide me whatever I fancy, in this market or any other. What my expectation is, though, is that for it to be a free market, there cannot be unreasonable (...) (22 years ago, 25-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Bruce Schlickbernd

(...) I'm still not getting where you are going with this, Larry. Free market of governments? What in the world does that have to do with inheritable contracts as a system of stable (or coercive) government? Unreasonable coercive barriers to entry (...) (22 years ago, 25-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Larry Pieniazek

(...) This subthread got a start when someone said "if you don't like it (that you inherited a contract), vote with your feet". Perfectly valid statement. What I was trying to point out was that it is not a perfect solution. Life isn't perfect, of (...) (22 years ago, 28-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —David Koudys

(...) News Flash--nothing is perfect. Not to bring religion into it, but we live in a fallen world. Beyond the religions scope, Democracy is the 'lesser of all evils". Heck, you and I don't even live in a pure democratic society, and basically used (...) (22 years ago, 28-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —David Koudys

(...) I would surmise that "Fre Market" and "Governmental Systems" are exclusive. There has to be oversight to "Free Market" in order to maintain the safety and health of those involved in the Free Market system--hence Gov't. I live in a reasonably (...) (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Larry Pieniazek

(...) Sorry, David, you were reading too fast. You missed the point. I speak of a marketplace*of* ideas themselves, a marketplace IN government systems. But be that as it may, past reading in this group will show that I don't agree that government (...) (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) If it is being tampered with, then it isn't free. Or is that what you meant? (...) Building codes also prevent a wide array of construction techniques that are cheaper and safer because the building industry is entrenched in the code setting (...) (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Dave Schuler

(...) The market is plenty free--we have 200+ nations to choose from! The fact that no nation has arisen to suit the desires of every last person is irrelevant. That's the market in action. Dave! (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Larry Pieniazek

(...) There are sufficiently high barriers to entry (the 200+ nations collude together to prevent new entrants) that your assertion that "the market is free" is false, Dave! (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Dave Schuler

(...) How so? Do you mean we're not free to form a new nation, or that we're not free to move from one to the next? In some cases, the latter is certainly true, but that's just the market in action; different types of product are available, with (...) (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Larry Pieniazek

Preface: Plowed ground alert. I probably shouldn't have posted a flurry of responses, just summarised and let it go. This has been discussed before at length. That said, onward. (...) Not in and of itself. But if you had a grand scheme for a $1000 (...) (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Dave Schuler

(...) I think you simply couldn't resist an opportunity to invoke Dave! (...) I may be misunderstanding the question, but let me try with a hypothetical stab at it. Suppose you and a group of like-minded individuals locate and claim a previously (...) (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —John Neal

(...) I think Larry is referring to the constraints of the monopoly of the 2 party system in America. As I have in the past, I see nothing wrong with joining one of the 2 parties and working for change *within* that context instead of trying to (...) (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —David Koudys

(...) Because others do things in a way that doesn't adhere to the "Too high" standard that the almighty United States sets for the rest of the world... I'll stick with Canada, where new political party(s) can spring up overnight, and long standing (...) (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Larry Pieniazek

(...) Does such an island exist? As far as I can tell, all land on this planet is either claimed by some particular government (and thus ought not to be hived off without the acquiescence of that government, or of the landowners or at least of (...) (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Dave Schuler

(...) Alas, that's just the way it goes; do you think that in a government-less world that wouldn't be the case? I want the free market to cough up a free place for me to live, but the free market doesn't do that any more than the current situation (...) (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Larry Pieniazek

(...) I'll let the market (of ideas) decide. Oh wait, it did! You lost, Dave! (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Dave Schuler

(...) Really? Then why can I only choose from a field of one cable company in my area? Dave! (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Larry Pieniazek

(...) Because you have a coercive monopoly. A government granted that company a monopoly... But you know this already, Dave! What are you up to? (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —David Koudys

(...) Yes, seriously--why is that? One cable company--I hate that. I don't want to go to satellite 'cause then I lose my internet connex, and I dislike High Speed dial-up, etc. But every few months, my cable bill goes up a couple of dollars, even (...) (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Larry Pieniazek

(...) How does one exit? What if the contract was abrogated by one side (the side with the big guns)? (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Dave Schuler

(...) Well, explain how it was abrogated (in legally specific terms) and then file suit. Otherwise, leave the country and renounce your US citizenship. Dave! (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Scott Arthur

(...) Then they will discover the power of democracy. ;) Remember Bush’s "Read my lips" promise? Scott A (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Mike Petrucelli

Ok, I was refering to the operation of the Government, not the social changes that occured between now and then despite the government's best efforts to the contrary. See maybe we have a slight difference of opinion here. I see the Government, not (...) (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Dave Schuler

(...) You may freely assert that point, but you must also document it, and you should also document how things would have been better without government intervention. The examples I gave: (...) are not social changes (with the exception of the (...) (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Mike Petrucelli

(...) the (...) Which resolved regardless of the the attempts to stop it. (...) So? That is why we have an election. (...) So? Who's fault is it if they lose everything gambling on the securities industry. (...) Also resolved despite efforts to the (...) (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Dave Schuler

(...) Excuse me? In many cases it was forcibly resolved by the Federal Government. (...) As was demonstrated in 2000, the will of a majority of the people is not necessarily reflected in the election process. (...) You misunderstand--brokers (...) (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Frank Filz

(...) Who is comprised of people just like you and me. There is nothing magical about the Federal Government compared to any other group of concerned people. I would also point out that the government didn't do very much to stop the abuse until (...) (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Mike Petrucelli

(...) Allow me to repeat this yet again. The percentage of votes that Gore supposedly won the nation wide popular vote by was less than the percentage of votes bush won in Florida by. Both numbers are well within the margin of error. However the (...) (22 years ago, 25-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Richard Marchetti

Mike: A lot of us believe the election was rigged in Florida by thousands of votes months before the election took place. (URL) am no friend to Gore or to his psycho wife Tipper -- I just want to know that we had an honest election, and we did not. (...) (22 years ago, 25-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Mike Petrucelli

(...) for their actions but probably won't. (...) For the record, I voted for Bush Jr. simply because I felt he was the least unquaified at the time. Gore just plain scared me, whereas Bush simply came off as stupid. -Mike Petrucelli (22 years ago, 25-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Richard Marchetti

(...) Ah, who knows? I think it bears far greater investigation but our press is asleep at the wheel. I can't even watch CNN anymore, and is Fox is a bloody joke. There's still some hard-hitting stuff on the web, but you have to dig a little -- (...) (22 years ago, 25-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Frank Filz

(...) I wonder how well that would really work, or do you mean I should have my own generator for the winter months when solar is unlikely to provide the power I need. I think electric plants are far more efficient than a generator could be (and of (...) (22 years ago, 25-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) Good modern photovoltaics pay for themselves in ~13 years and last ~20 years. Because they're modular, you can scale your installation easily to provide far in excess of the power you need. Or am I misunderstanding your meaning? (...) You just (...) (22 years ago, 26-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Pelton wheels, photovoltaics, hydro, biomas and marine current [not the "war"] —Scott Arthur

(...) Not in Scotland; here photovoltaics & wind power are predictably unpredictable. We are taking a centralised broad-spectrum approach to renewables: hydro, biomas, wind and marine current power. Right now about 10% of our power needs come from (...) (22 years ago, 26-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Dave Schuler

(...) Right, but that's just a recount of the accepted votes, and it doesn't factor in the irregularities in ballot format, the use of obsolete machines in democrat-friendly districts, the unlawful removal of legal voters from the voting registries, (...) (22 years ago, 25-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Mike Petrucelli

(...) In each case I advocated shooting someone they either would have or did cause physical harm or were violating basic freedoms. Disagreeing with someone (...) Politicians only went to washington when there was actually something that needed (...) (22 years ago, 25-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Dave Schuler

(...) Care to finish that thought? But even without the finish I can take issue with your point. You're advocating the preemptive murder of people whom you perceive to violate your basic freedoms, am I right? Doesn't that sound a trifle insane to (...) (22 years ago, 25-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Richard Marchetti

(...) I can vouch for the disparagement of solar power in CA where there is bill either under consideration or that has been passed that allows PG&E to "tax" an individual's non-use of the utility when that individual is using alternative energy (...) (22 years ago, 25-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Dave Schuler

(...) Wow, that *is* pretty lame. By that logic, they could charge dead people for their non-use of food, air, and water. Dave! (22 years ago, 25-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Richard Marchetti

(...) Estate taxes? =) -- Hop-Frog (22 years ago, 25-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —John Neal

(...) Zing! Good one! JOHN (22 years ago, 25-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Mike Petrucelli

(...) fire? (...) is not grounds for shooting them. (How did that happen?) (...) a (...) there (...) You misunderstand due to me not being more clear in that post. She was attacked by 7 different people. After the first 4 she bought a gun which was (...) (22 years ago, 25-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Dave Schuler

(...) Before someone points out my error, I should have describe the woman's actions as "second degree murder" rather than "third degree murder." I'm reluctant to address the specifics of your story in case further details should be revealed as we (...) (22 years ago, 26-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Scott Arthur

(...) Indeed, whole countries have been invaded [allegedly] on that basis. :-\ Scott A (22 years ago, 26-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —David Koudys

(...) Ouch! Down goes Fraser! He'll be reeling after that hit! Dave K (22 years ago, 26-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Scott Arthur

(...) I have to say, I could not agree more with this point. Searching for legal loopholes to justify highly questionable in/actions is a major annoyance to me. The UK's use of cluster bombs in Iraq [anti-personnel bombs in all but name] is an (...) (22 years ago, 26-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Mike Petrucelli

(...) attacked (...) registered (...) be (...) Oh trust me, if I could find a link I would post it. It was in the local paper about 2 or 3 years ago. I can not claim to remember everything and if you want to analyze it I don't blame you one bit. I (...) (22 years ago, 27-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Dave Schuler

(...) The most damning part of this tale isn't given; was the woman sentenced or acquitted? (...) I appreciate your candor and your understanding of my skepticism. I still have trouble believing that the case could have been gagged or swept under (...) (22 years ago, 27-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Mike Petrucelli

(...) or (...) she (...) neccessary (...) I don't remember for sure but I don't think she was acquitted. (...) It has happened before. You won't find this in any paper... I know a women who's 70something year old neigbor was sentenced to 25 years in (...) (22 years ago, 28-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Stand your ground (ie., go ahead and shoot) —Dave Schuler

(...) What had been a primarily theoretical debate for Mike and me has turned into policy in the great state of Florida: (URL) the kicker--now you can shoot someone in the street just because you *feel* threatened! So when that apparently middle (...) (19 years ago, 6-Apr-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —John Neal

(...) As Rodney might say, "tough crowd"-- it's almost as if people think the idea isn't all half bad:-) (...) I see your point, but even if we were able to go back, it would certainly have a profound effect upon society *as we know it*. But how (...) (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Frank Filz

(...) Hmm, doesn't each of the original 13 states have a copy of the constitution? Of course nuking D.C. wouldn't get the oldest constitution in effect (you'd have to nuke Boston to do that). Also, the nuke isn't going to incinerate the whole city, (...) (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) That's just silly. I have no problem calling it terrorism. Any tactic designed primarily to inspire fear (or "shock and awe?") is a terrorist tactic. I still stand behind the notion that terrorism sometimes makes good sense. My verbiage was (...) (22 years ago, 23-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —John Neal

(...) Fair enough. (...) Yeah, because I *do* make a distinction between the deadly force perpetrated by both sides. The Israelis desire to root out and kill *terrorists*-- the fact that these cowardly scumbags hide in and among the civilian (...) (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Bruce Schlickbernd

(...) Are you saying that Gore isn't a Christian? Quick internet check: Southern Baptist. Oh hey, his favorite movie is Local Hero and TV show is Futurama. Well, alright! Oh, sorry for the digression. So, if what you say is true, then the Left hates (...) (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —John Neal

(...) Not necessarily. If he believes like a good boy in global warming, abortion, gun control, entitlements, etc,etc, and keeps his (misguided) religion to himself he's okay. I wonder if Bush's favorite TV show is King of the Hill? :-) (...) No, (...) (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Bruce Schlickbernd

(...) This is all a dodge: you stated that the left hates Bush because he is a Christian, and yet they supported a Christian for president. The evidence doesn't support your theory. (...) So was I. (...) Actually, they get what they want even if (...) (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) Yes. I can't think of a plausible reason to think that we are more concerned with doing good than _everyone_ else. I think that all people are motivated by their own interests which means that any country or society will have "good" and "bad" (...) (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —John Neal

(...) Pretty cynical. And un-American, I might add. (...) As in investing, "past performance doesn't guarantee future results";-) (...) Rigged??? Come on. How did those who "rigged" the election know it would be so close in popular vote? The idea is (...) (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) It's unamerican to think that people are self interested? Or to think that nations are made up of good and bad people? Or to think that America is largely like many other countries? (...) Well, they couldn't know _how_ close it would be until (...) (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —John Neal

(...) Bingo. That is exactly what I meant. I believe that the US is unique and special; a shining example of Freedom to the world. I am proud to be an American, and I believe all Americans should be proud of their country and grateful for living in (...) (22 years ago, 25-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Richard Marchetti

(...) Wow, more crazy delusions! There are no chosen people or countries, John -- stop scaring the neighbors! We choose ourselves. Some of us have the benefit of NOT having to obey the voices in YOUR head. He's a John Neal -- The Covenant, the (...) (22 years ago, 25-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —John Neal

(...) You have a license to practice that pop psychology? (...) As far as you know. (...) You probably think you are a hoot. JOHN (22 years ago, 25-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Thomas Stangl

(...) I think he's much less dangerous than people like you, John. Because Richard, while often extremely annoying, is more interested in everyone's freedom from oppression. You, however, are one of the most oppressive people in this forum, and if (...) (22 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) So, obviously you think it is untrue, but why? It seems like virtually all the evidence points the way I'm suggesting. And for the record, I don't think that he's as dumb as he seems...he almost couldn't be! But even if he were, it is still (...) (22 years ago, 25-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Selçuk Göre

(...) from enother message: (...) I always believed that the 'merican sterotype (arrogant, ignorant, self centric), that every foreigner (to US) is familiar enough, is just a comically exaggerated unreality. At least I know too many american friends (...) (22 years ago, 2-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Richard Marchetti

Weeks said: (...) Then Neal said: (...) Isn't the basis of your faith a struggle between the good and bad out to achieve their own goals? I my world view self-interest is a given. It is the moving force behind every human action since the beginning. (...) (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Richard Marchetti

This one's for resident heavy-hitter and heavy-lifter Larry P, y'all know how he loves a cite from authority: "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only (...) (22 years ago, 24-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Richard Marchetti

(...) Disagree. I do not believe in the one peace -- not the Pax Romanus, nor the Pax Americana. Ever play "King of the Hill" -- where one person stands atop a rock or a small dirt mound and everyone else tries to forcibly remove the king from his (...) (22 years ago, 21-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —John Neal

(...) Ever play "King of the Hill" with a *really* big guy (an adult)? The adult *stays* king and all of the little guys have fun trying to topple him. He may feign that he is almost fallen, but that, too, is part of the game. The end result is that (...) (22 years ago, 21-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Dave Schuler

(...) For the adult, perhaps. But in that case, the adult is behaving like a jackass. Dave! (22 years ago, 21-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —John Neal

(...) Really? In what way? JOHN (22 years ago, 21-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Dave Schuler

(...) Oh, let me count the ways: 1. The adult can obviously overpower the children, so any overpowering action taken by the adult must be greatly tempered by thoughtful restraint 2. If the adult has any kind of maturity, he wouldn't simply squash (...) (22 years ago, 21-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —John Neal

(...) But of course; it's a game. (...) But of course! (...) Now that's when it *really* gets fun for the kids! And they are actually learning something about cooperation and teamwork! (...) Never said that. It's a game. (...) But of course. It (...) (22 years ago, 21-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Richard Marchetti

Thank you for being so transparent about your thinking. I leave you to the horror that is your thought process. Might makes right. He's a John Neal. The Arm of the Lord. Pathetic. -- Hop-Frog (22 years ago, 21-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —John Neal

(...) Not what I said. Might *can make* right, if the might is right(eous). JOHN (22 years ago, 21-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —David Koudys

(...) You condescending jackass! If this is what you believe America portrays, or even should portray, to the world, i.e. "The Responsible Adult", while all the other countries, i.e. "The Kiddies" play around--oh my goodness--you truly are (...) (22 years ago, 21-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This... —Frank Filz

(...) Hmm, the question of what to do if the locals don't want a a free state. It seems obvious to us that anyone (who won't have substantial power in the alternative state) should prefer a free state, but is that really true? If it isn't, what do (...) (22 years ago, 21-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)