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(...) Why? People are usually as polarized on this issue as the abortion issue. (...) It is my contention that the only thing more disgusting than bringing up a tragedy like this in such a "if you support the right to own a gun you think those (...) (26 years ago, 12-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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I just want to put my two cents on this one, whereas I will just keep my big mouth shut about the other threads... For what its worth, Mike Stanly seems to absolutely right! (again) Mike Stanley wrote in message ... (...) Good point, I think I will (...) (26 years ago, 13-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I would have to agree with Mike. The biggest problem with gun legislation, is that it's in the second amendment of the US Constitution. Spelled out specifically. If the government deems is necessary to take away that amendement, what's to stop (...) (26 years ago, 13-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) For the record, I think that my beliefs are subject to change, but others have tried to convince me and it hasn't happened on this issue. (...) This is the key practical point, as far as I see it. (...) And this is the key ethical point which (...) (26 years ago, 13-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I agree with this statement. I think a 'gun license', similar to a 'driving license', is a reasonable and rational requirement for gun ownership. Anyone who wants to legally obtain a gun should be willing to go through a period of training and (...) (26 years ago, 13-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) The only problem I see with a gun license is the creation of a list of gun owners, which would make the job of the out of control government cracking down on the population easier (recall that this is one of the major reasons for the 2nd (...) (26 years ago, 13-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I believe it has something to do with the fact that the police are only *supposed* to be involved in situations where a crime has been committed. No crime, no punishment. Can you imagine what would happen if citizens could be punished because (...) (26 years ago, 13-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) There's already nothing to stop them from overruling any of the amendments. I don't see your argument. Steve (26 years ago, 13-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) There's already several sources of information about who owns various non-lethal pieces of property. Houses, cars, businesses. The government knows about the cars I own from at least two different sources already: the title and the (...) (26 years ago, 13-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Steve Bliss wrote in message <373b2d40.4308071@lu...et.com>... (...) strange. (...) If our country wasn't over run by this "its not a crime unless convicted" mentality I might find this argument credible. However, so much crime occurs because it is (...) (26 years ago, 13-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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On Thu, 13 May 1999 15:07:00 GMT, Lee Jorgensen uttered the following profundities... (...) I was under the impression that legislation was necessary to amend an amendment, such as a referendum. Is that not the case? (...) But please demonstrate a (...) (26 years ago, 13-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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On Thu, 13 May 1999 15:34:45 GMT, Steve Bliss uttered the following profundities... (...) This is getting close to what I was trying to say. Which Mike has decided to close off to, rather than trying to understand what was meant, and blow everything (...) (26 years ago, 13-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Mike and John are doing fine. I wish I had time to participate in this debate as I usually do... it's fun. Not likely to change anyone's mind but fun. (26 years ago, 14-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Demonstrate the need to own LEGO, then. What a silly question. No one should have to demonstrate needs here. We're talking about acquisition of property. If I have the resources, and the acquisition of property per se does not infringe the (...) (26 years ago, 14-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Well, so much of everything else you said was complete and utter crap that I guess I didn't have the energy to read your mind instead of reading what you wrote. Sorry, but that lead-in (if you support the right to own a gun you must think the (...) (26 years ago, 14-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Yeah, that's why I won't be wasting much time on it. The total nuts on both sides are wrong, imo. (26 years ago, 14-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) The founding fathers intent was clearly for the residents of America to be able to defend themselves against the British and any other possible "invaders". To be able to easily and quickly assemble armed forces for any impending attacks. The (...) (26 years ago, 14-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) No, sorry. You're wrong. Not possible to convince you that you are, but you are, nonetheless. The intent was to be the final check. A disarmed populace falls victim to tyranny much more easily, no matter what the source. Read the federalist (...) (26 years ago, 14-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) able (...) To (...) The tradgedy in Littleton would more than likely have happened even if guns were severely restricted. Remember, three out of four of the guns that were used to kill people, were regular hunting rifles. Of those three (...) (26 years ago, 14-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I agree wholeheartedly here ... I don't _NEED_ a gun currently, however if I want to purchase one, why do I need to wait up to 30 days now? Also, the Congress elated me, and is now disappointing me. The gun legislation that is being pushed (...) (26 years ago, 14-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) 'Cause a doberman will bite your face off if it misfires. :-P Cheers, - jsproat (26 years ago, 14-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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(...) To the best of my knowledge, my Ruger never has. (...) What possible reason could you have for that? They are quite obviously protected by the second amendment. Every weapon available to the agents of government are protected by the second. (...) (26 years ago, 14-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) That's what they say on the news...I guess it must be true. Why can't they make the numbers reflect that then? Verrrry interestingk. How would this training prevent crimes of passion? (...) Really? So saving ten and losing one isn't a good (...) (26 years ago, 14-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) It says: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." Now, what is a militia? According to dictionary.com, militia means "In the widest (...) (26 years ago, 14-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) All laws are reasonable, even that one in New York(?) that says it is illegal to have an Ice Cream cone in you pocket. ;) Jeff (26 years ago, 14-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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(...) Oh, that is *so* unfair to us ice cream enthusiasts. This is cruel and unusual nourishment, and has language *specifically* addressing it in the Constitution. Cheers, - jsproat (26 years ago, 14-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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(...) Oh, Larry. You're not going to fall back on that tired "personal responsibility for personal actions" argument again, are you? When will you understand that the *government* is responsible for all our actions, or the companies who sold us (...) (26 years ago, 14-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) The second amendment means that if they get too carried away with negating our rights, we can take them back. (26 years ago, 14-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) illegal (...) LOL I get around that law by carrying it in my shoe. But I guess I'm still breaking the Constitution! BTW, is it just the cone that's illegal or does it have to have ice cream in it? Here in California if there was no ice cream (...) (26 years ago, 14-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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(...) A) Many of us consider this a bad thing. B) Those on the gun-control side of things typically espouse a significant (but faulty) difference between guns and cars in that guns are intentionally dangerous. I am constantly frustrated by this, but (...) (26 years ago, 14-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) breaking (...) Hehehehe! It may just be Ice Cream, but I'm not sure. I *think* I heard this on the history channel. There's another I forgot to mention. In Florida, it is illegal to tie your elephant to a parking meter. ;) Jeff (26 years ago, 14-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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(...) Give me one example of a fire arm that was produced, but never intened to discharge a projectile (other than a starting pistol). (...) it. (...) I will concede that they are currently protected under the second amendment, but I _personally_ (...) (26 years ago, 14-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Grrrr. That does it! I am *finished* goofing around. This kind of legistlature just gets me all red in the nose. It gives me a big frown on my face. Great. Now my makeup's running and my hankie is making strange honking sounds. I'm taking my (...) (26 years ago, 14-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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(...) I was about to seriously flame you, but then I figured that you were being sarcastic. ...You were being sarcastic, weren't you? Duane (26 years ago, 14-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) That's because they can't cash in on it. I can see some of the courtroom proceedings now: Defendant: "Well there wasn't a meter when I got there, your honor." Judge: "No meter at all? We have other parking tickets dated that day for that (...) (26 years ago, 14-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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(...) Are you saying the to discharge a projectile is the same as to kill? My ruger has discharged many projectiles, but probably never killed...I bought it new. But, for the sake of the argument, I believe that there are collectible firearms that (...) (26 years ago, 14-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Why does it matter? The first half of it is merely a justification for the second which is direction on what rights are granted to (actually affirmed for) whom. (...) No. (...) That's right, they didn't want to limit it to any particular kind (...) (26 years ago, 14-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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The LP had a pretty good PR release recently. Paraphrasing... suppose other amendments were as watered down as the 2nd? Each of these is a parallel to a existing law that regulates the acquisition or ownership of guns. Fortunately, each is currently (...) (26 years ago, 14-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Discharging a projectile is not the same as to kill. If that were true, I could be arrested just for vomiting. My point was that guns were designed to kill by shooting at the intended victim (animal, vegitable, or mineral). I asked if you (...) (26 years ago, 14-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Yes. I think the lack of feeling/being responsible for one's actions is a major problem in our society. A second problem is civil lawsuits following innocent verdicts in criminal trials. Steve (26 years ago, 14-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Why are we in this NG then? I can't debate either statement :-) Duane (26 years ago, 14-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Something I'd like to add is that I recently read some historical accounts of April 19, 1775 (British march on Concord, Paul Revere, shot heard round the world and all that). Almost all of the colonial casualties that day were civilians (...) (26 years ago, 14-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) What does "well regulated" mean, in the context of the Second Amendment? Seriously. "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." Steve (26 years ago, 14-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) When the British marched on Concord April 19, 1775, the militia essentially consisted every able bodied citizen. I believe that the 2nd amendment is specifically referring to an informal militia NOT controlled by the wider government (though (...) (26 years ago, 14-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I have been following along with all you guys arguing over this subject (sorry, "debating"). Interesting points from all sides, but of course ultimately it is fruitless - neither side will convince the other to significantly change their (...) (26 years ago, 14-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Christopher L. Weeks wrote in message <373C485D.E0DE68AA@c...ri.edu>... (...) Probably so, but less traumatic than being shot or worse, killed. Thats the how I feel about it - I don't want to be killed or even shot. Anyone want to argue with that? (...) (26 years ago, 14-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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John DiRienzo wrote: <snip> (...) Well said and very libertarian, thank you. (26 years ago, 14-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Amen to that, brother. And it is the Democratic Party that is fueling *that* fire by trying to have Government "take care" of everyone-- and deny personal freedoms in the process, and thus responsibility. (...) What, are you kidding!! I got (...) (26 years ago, 15-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Don't pin that on the D only. The R is right there behind them in "me too" mode. (26 years ago, 16-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) There's a specific procedure for overruling an amendment. One that no congresscritter, no matter how liberal, has the guts to try to initiate. Unfortunately, nothing can prevent them from working towards the same goal with stupid little (...) (26 years ago, 16-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Reply-To: cjc@newsguy.com Followup-To: (...) Demonstrate a need to own anything other than plaid pants or frilly pink shirts. Demonstrate a need to own more than one pair of shoes. It's none of your or anyone else's business why I own a gun, (...) (26 years ago, 16-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Well, except for maybe that one case that happens every now and then when the criminal trial verdict was clearly wrong. (26 years ago, 16-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Do you think you or I can go to a gun store and buy an automatic weapon? Do you know why or why not? Do you understand what a semi-automatic weapon is? Do you know what kind of handguns and rifles you would leave us with if all "automatic and (...) (26 years ago, 16-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) So it is your belief that a revolver is ok while a semi-automatic pistol like my Glock is not. What's the difference, really? I can almost guarantee you that I could kill someone with the revolver more efficiently than the Glock, if for no (...) (26 years ago, 16-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) It also sounds like a stupid question. What do you think, that if enough people admit that guns, in essence, are meant to shot projectiles that will kill another person, they'll just vanish? Or gunowners the world over will just jump up and (...) (26 years ago, 16-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Depends on which definition of regulate you want to accept, I suppose. 'Course, you also have to try to understand what the founders might have meant by it, something a lot of people don't want to do if it doesn't fit their side of the (...) (26 years ago, 16-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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<snip> (...) I think this point comes close to getting at why folks are a little leery of semi-automatic and automatic weapons so readily available. Because most of the population is *not* as responsible and conscientious about using their weapons (...) (26 years ago, 17-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Mike Stanley wrote in message ... (...) A comment to add to this: A gun owner has total control over his weapon. A dog owner has incomplete . Either means of protection is subject to serious abuse by irresponsible owners. Of course a responsible (...) (26 years ago, 17-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Mike Stanley wrote in message ... (...) Of course if one got down to it, one could make a constitional issue of it since the Bill of Rights specifically indicates that it is not the sole enumeration of rights. It is an enumeration of the rights (...) (26 years ago, 17-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) That is my hope, belief, and aim. Steve (26 years ago, 17-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Wouldn't matter then. No one would be able to hear you over the THX sound system. ;) (...) Preserving some rights means restricting other rights. Right? Steve (26 years ago, 17-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Yes, I am very aware of the impact that this would have. That is my point. (...) weapons (...) a (...) useless (...) from (...) (26 years ago, 17-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Why is this? (...) Paintball leaves a lot to be desired with respect to accuracy. I guess part of my bias here is that I own my own marker and know how it shoots. I understand what its limitations are, and work with them. (...) I don't see the (...) (26 years ago, 17-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) This may be some common ground where we can all agree. Duane (26 years ago, 17-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) <snipped OJ stuff> (...) opinion? Well, the first thing that pops into mind as far as 'clearly wrong' goes is outdated laws. Laws do not cover all eventualities, and occaisonally, a situation occurs where a law has been broken, but blame does (...) (26 years ago, 17-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) What makes a criminal trial verdict clearly wrong? For instance with OJ: everyone I knew had an opinion, most of them thought he was guilty as hell and should fry, but a few were absolutely sure that he was innocent. So, he got off and (...) (26 years ago, 17-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) It means practiced. That is, the militia (the people) will have the opportunity to practice as much as they want because they have the right to own any arm. Because of this, the people will be ready to revolt or defend against foreign (...) (26 years ago, 17-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) So, should we assume that taxation, in any form other than optional user fees, by your definition is evil? (If so, we agree.) (26 years ago, 17-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Once. (...) Once. (same case both times) I was the foreman on a jury that got the "wrong" verdict. Wrong in that we let someone go who clearly was guilty. But "clearly" was not clear to us until after the fact, when we talked to the prosecutor (...) (26 years ago, 17-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Perhaps if HCI wanted to make a better world they'd push for things that would incent people to be as responsible as Mike (and myself, I fancy to think) are. Then we'd be safe from all manner of ills which cannot be wished out of existance. (...) (26 years ago, 17-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Two things. 1) You can *never* be 100% sure that anyone committed any crime with circumstantial evidence. 2) Were you a juror for the O.J. travesty, uh sorry, trial? -John <donning asbestos suit for wrath of Lar> (...) Repeat after me. I was (...) (26 years ago, 17-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I can agree with the thought. Never safe to assume that the losers who end up making up the regulations and nit-picky junk would actually create a program that would be effective. (26 years ago, 17-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Sounds like a movie title, or a 'professional' wrestling bill; "Lugnet Gun Debate Wars III: The Wrath Of Lar" -- Terry K -- (26 years ago, 17-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) True. And any who did would throw popcorn and tell you to shut up. (...) Yep. That is the idea. Complete freedom in a society is a chimera. -- Terry K -- (26 years ago, 17-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Agreed. But it takes "beyond a reasonable doubt" not "certain", We had very reasonable doubts based on what we were presented. But I'm pretty sure this particular perp was guilty, or that the DA was lying to us about the circumstances. There (...) (26 years ago, 17-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) ?? [1] (...) [1] didn't you mean to put the footnote *after* "H"? ;-) -John (...) (26 years ago, 18-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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(...) True. In which case, it would be time to change the legislation. But, I think training which is mostly ineffective is still better than no training. Maybe I've been watching too much TV (entirely likely), but I have these mental images of (...) (26 years ago, 18-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) What's HCI? (...) On the open road, you are only seconds away from death. Scary thought, the first time you realize it. Especially if you're doing 70MPH through a forest area at the time. In case anyone hasn't noticed, I see a *big* parallel (...) (26 years ago, 18-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I much prefer to yell "Use the force, Luke!" in showings of any of the first three movies. SW is starting to sound like a bad Abbott and Costello bit[1]. "What's the first movie?" "Number 4" "No, the first one" "Right" Steve /1/ Did the "Click (...) (26 years ago, 18-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I can only hope that anyone who holds a gun has the same feelings that I do. I have enough experience with guns (at least rifles and a few different types of handgun) that I am confident in my own abilities to use one if need be, but it still (...) (26 years ago, 18-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Actually, unless theres an amendment I'm not aware of, you don't have the right to own a car. You have the opportunity to own a car, like any property, based on their availability and your financial capability. You can be granted the (...) (26 years ago, 18-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Christopher L. Weeks wrote in message <37402D13.FE6DEC19@c...ri.edu>... (...) a (...) Well, obviously! And to think the evil man Jesus said, "Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's!" This may be good advice which can be worded in other ways - obey your (...) (26 years ago, 18-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) perform proper subexpression substitution (1) and you get IMNAAHO which after variable substitution(1) results in In My Not At All Humble Opinion. So no. it was in the right place. Anyone here think of me as humble? Didn't think so. (1) (...) (26 years ago, 18-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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(...) Sorry to be the fly in the ointment, but not for me, thanks. I believe that requiring training is an infringement on the RKBA and specifically violates the second. If the government can require training, and they want to make guns improbably (...) (26 years ago, 18-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Debatable, I guess. The "training" that they require in TN, at least as administered here in Knox county, is laughable. The written test is practically answered question by question by the instructor. The firing test is about as hard as it (...) (26 years ago, 18-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Hi, I don't know if I am like a hair in the soup but I don't have time to read all previous postings in that thread. What I can see is that your debating gun control, in Canada if you want to buy a weapon you need a permit and succed a weapon (...) (26 years ago, 18-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Man, that's really cold... SteveC (URL) (26 years ago, 18-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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(...) Holy purple imacs, Macman, we've been slighted! (I think) Lar's quite obscure here...must go look up "innumerate" in this context. At least we mac users don't end our sentences with prepositions;-) -John (...) (26 years ago, 18-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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<slrn7k3ois.1dt.cjc@...S.UTK.EDU> <FBy91u.K5w@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) You came late but your statement above is the crux of the debate. A lot of people do not buy this link, do (...) (26 years ago, 19-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Real Computers are grey, or possibly black. Furthermore, that was a fragment, not a sentence. Stuff THAT up your 8 wide tunnel portal. (26 years ago, 19-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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(...) Or periods. Apparently, anyway. (26 years ago, 19-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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(...) So true. I hit a turkey last year. Damn thing stepped out of the brush and started to walk onto the road. In slow motion, I see its legs flex and launch itself into the air....... SMACK! Right into the windshield on the passenger side. Thought (...) (26 years ago, 19-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) How's this Jurassic (...) (26 years ago, 19-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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(...) Which, a "real computer", or your fragment [1]? If you meant the computer, then I guess it is a *good* thing it's 8 wide;-) [1] Naughty sentence structure we mac users would never use on our pink computers;-) -John (...) (26 years ago, 19-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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(...) In your case, Neanderthal springs to mind. But that's not a period, it's a subspecies. That fits. When I think of you, subhuman DOES seem to fill the bill. (26 years ago, 19-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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(...) And old granddads. While we're at it, get rid of Johnny Walker! (...) Still applies. Followups set to .pun (26 years ago, 19-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.pun)
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(...) What can change the opinions? I know that in discussions, I have changed my mind on stances, but I can't isolate the essential element of what convinced me - beyond inarguable logic. But why is it that with pretty similar backgrounds, we see (...) (26 years ago, 19-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes: <Snipped a bunch of stuff> Larry, you are correct in saying that very few opinions will be changed as a result of the debating that is currently raging withing this group. The reason that I debate (...) (26 years ago, 19-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) <Duck!> Another one, ProtoimacMan! Quick, do something! What's that? You want a banana?! Not me, I already eight;-) -John (...) (26 years ago, 19-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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(...) And if you did this in TN, you could have turkey for dinner. Steve (26 years ago, 19-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) number (...) I feel happy to know another (1) american that is not "gun crazy". Some time poeple realy realy want to do or own wathever they want that they will find any excuse possible to validate their choice even if they now that they are (...) (26 years ago, 19-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Just as long as you don't get rid of Bushmills. (26 years ago, 20-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.pun)
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<37421ED7.8F4BB887@voyager.net> <FBzGnp.L04@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) Ya, me too. A debate is different than an argument! In formal debating the goal is to convince the bystanders, (...) (26 years ago, 20-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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<37421ED7.8F4BB887@voyager.net> <FC01x0.2AH@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) Who? I am not "gun crazy", whatever that means, but I own a handgun, am trained in its effective use(1), am (...) (26 years ago, 20-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Wow, you lost me there. Please clarify the "evil man Jesus" and "better fictitious god" statements. -John (...) (26 years ago, 20-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Under his analysis Jesus was evil, not just misguided, and was a man, not the Son of God. Further, God is fictitious, and there exist better fictions, for example the one he gave. Seems clear to me. Try to keep up, eh? I confess I hadn't taken (...) (26 years ago, 20-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Analysis?! Based on what? Not facts. For "rational folk", y'all seem pretty confident in things about which you know nothing, which to me sounds irrational. Further, you hold God is fictitious because you have no proof, which *certainly* (...) (26 years ago, 20-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Here we go again. History does have a way of repeating itself. (26 years ago, 20-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) <snip> (...) Ho no! you do! :-( (...) (26 years ago, 20-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) **I'M** certainly not going to plow this ground again. This has been talked about here ad nauseum and I haven't the bandwidth to get into a debate about the existence of god. Suffice it to say that I'm as satisfied of his non existance as (...) (26 years ago, 21-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I've heard that before;-) (...) The Inquisition moved to Michigan??! What a terrible imposition;-) (...) Don't look at me. **I'M** not the troll who trolled out "evil Jesus" and "fictitious god". I have no intentions of cramming anything down (...) (26 years ago, 21-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) BTW, The preposition rule doesn't really exist. It's up there with the one that says "never split infinitives," which doesn't really exist either. Bill Bryson wrote a rather entertaining exposition on it in _Mother Tongue_ that made a (...) (26 years ago, 21-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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On Fri, 21 May 1999 09:56:29 GMT, Mr L F Braun <braunli1@pilot.msu.edu> wrote: [interesting stuff snipped off] (...) ... I am a miwwionaire ... Steve (26 years ago, 21-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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(...) Tell me about it. I spend all day dodging the inquisitor. Steve (26 years ago, 21-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) You're a lot more humble than "The Humblest Man On The Net". So, well... No further comment. Jasper (26 years ago, 27-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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(...) I just noticed today that one of the Teletubbies is an ObMelanin-challenged character. I thought they kept PC out of that show (considering Mr Falwell's recent gaffe), but alack, no such luck. Jasper (26 years ago, 27-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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(...) Yeah. Right. You're making this claim way too boldly here, IMHO. Oppressive to the colonies, hell yes, but oppressive in its own society? Not very. IOW, that does not an oppressive regime make. So, why haven't I seen anyone point to the two (...) (26 years ago, 28-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Redefine the fucking Second, then. Include the amount of training and how selective it can be. Just don't make it another driving license, for which virtually nobody ever fails.. Jasper (26 years ago, 28-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Now _that_ (the latter) would be an improvement. Jasper (26 years ago, 28-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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(...) IF you mean that the constitution should be amended so that the right to keep and bear arms is dependent on some very specific training, then I agree with your method of making that change (as opposed to just passing laws that violate the (...) (26 years ago, 28-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Whoops. Musta thought I was still in alt.peeves (where I am currently also involved in a gun-control thread that is, at last count, something on the order of 1000 messages and growing...). (...) Well, yeah. I mean, however much _anyone_ may or (...) (25 years ago, 30-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Larry! For shame! Indigo is a perfectly acceptable color for a computer. It runs Unix (Well.. kindasorta Unix, anyway), after all. Jasper (25 years ago, 30-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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(...) <stuff> (...) Has Mr Neal been doing naughty things in my absence? Jasper (25 years ago, 30-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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(...) *I* have been good. But enough about me. Where have *you* been? It's been fun watching you whirling through the posts getting caught up and getting in your .02's worth;-) -John (...) (25 years ago, 31-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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On Mon, 17 May 1999 14:25:19 GMT, Christopher L. Weeks uttered the following profundities... (...) An argument I had often used here in relation to Louise Woodward. (The general populace in the UK were convinced of her innocence, but had not the (...) (25 years ago, 31-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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On Mon, 17 May 1999 23:40:30 GMT, Larry Pieniazek uttered the following profundities... (...) Why the death penalty was abolished in the UK. Shall we go down that road? Would the incorrect execution of one individual sway the overwhelmingly (...) (25 years ago, 31-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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On Fri, 21 May 1999 09:56:29 GMT, Mr L F Braun uttered the following profundities... (...) Teletubbies cannot possibly be a cause of violence, merely a reaction to it. I propose as a target for violent urges. Though students in the UK suggest they (...) (25 years ago, 31-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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On Fri, 14 May 1999 14:37:11 GMT, Duane Hess uttered the following profundities... (...) But is in itself an amendment. Other rights and issues have been amended, reinforced, clarified, etc. (and one repealed). One observation, and I am not (...) (25 years ago, 31-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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On Sun, 16 May 1999 16:26:40 GMT, Mike Stanley uttered the following profundities... (...) Unable for those particular items. However, as stated elsewhere, requested the information to lead to understanding and enlightenment. It is possible to (...) (25 years ago, 31-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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On Wed, 19 May 1999 13:55:11 GMT, Christopher L. Weeks uttered the following profundities... (...) Because to some (not necessarily me, I am not stating my true beliefs until I have read all posts), gun ownership can restrict freedom. By which I (...) (25 years ago, 31-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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On Wed, 19 May 1999 14:09:25 GMT, Duane Hess uttered the following profundities... (...) Was I challenging them? Wishing to understand them? Trolling you? (25 years ago, 31-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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On Fri, 14 May 1999 21:58:19 GMT, John DiRienzo uttered the following profundities... (...) There's that word, Constitutionally, again. Used as though it was without flaw, without error, a holy scripture as though written by god(s) (...) (25 years ago, 31-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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On Fri, 14 May 1999 16:30:06 GMT, Jeff Stembel uttered the following profundities... (...) And implies justification for the draft/conscription, subject to personal ownership of arms. (25 years ago, 31-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Been down it before. Most libertarians are opposed to Capital Punishment. Too irreversible. Now, granted, even if you're sentenced to life, you could still die before your time due to some random prisoner or guard, but at least the odds of (...) (25 years ago, 31-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Wow, Richard. Remember, any time spent watching that show cannot be gotten back;-) -John (...) (25 years ago, 31-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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(...) If I were a mindreader and could know what I was dealing with was a petty thief who wanted nothing more than my television or my toys, then MAYBE, just maybe I wouldn't shoot him to death. Given the fact that I would more than likely be (...) (25 years ago, 31-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Glad you like it ;) I've been everywhere, sorta. alt.comics.user-friendly alt.fan.bert-hubert alt.folklore.urban alt.humor.best-of-usenet alt.lifestyle.barefoot alt.peeves alt.sex.ctulhu alt.sport.darts alt.sport.snooker alt.sysadmin.bofh (...) (25 years ago, 31-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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(...) They don't have to make license plates. They could be making low-tech electronics, as currently typically hand-made in the East. Jasper (25 years ago, 1-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) You can run for president if both your parents, at the time of your birth, had the American nationality. Army brats _can_ run for president. Also, if you are born in a region which later _becomes_ part of the US, you can do so. This was (...) (25 years ago, 1-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Or they could be put to work staffing phones for airline reservations. Handling credit card transactions for unsuspecting travelers. Oh, wait. Been done. Stupid idea. :-/ -- Terry K -- (25 years ago, 1-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I'd say prisoners should be put to hard physical labor. I've always pictured the most appropriate and just prison as one that in many ways resembles what I lived in during basic training in the Army. Very tight "living quarters" with no (...) (25 years ago, 1-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Yes, you were challenging me. Which is not a bad thing. In trying to understand my point of view you were asking questions which I may, or may not have had an answer for. For those questions that I had an answer for, I stated my answer. For (...) (25 years ago, 1-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) In fact, I seem to remember that Michael Dukakis (former govener or Massachussetts and one time presidential canditate for non-americans and those with short memories) caught flak for being soft on crime for finally officially recognizing that (...) (25 years ago, 1-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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<MPG.11bcd21f4c15bcb...ugnet.com> <FCnK1r.I33@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) This reminds me of the bone-head required English writing class that I had to take for my college degree in (...) (25 years ago, 1-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Cool. (...) Now, if we look at the number of automobile-related deaths, I think adopting something similar for the US might be in order. Guns are really pretty safe, but cars are dangerous as hell. (25 years ago, 1-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I think it's a pretty strong corner-stone for our nation. It may need to be altered as time marches on...I just don't see a burning need. Actually, I would like to see the ammendments that pass the rights and duties which aren't specifically (...) (25 years ago, 1-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) As much as anyone can. Can you rule out the possibility that you might freak out and decide to use your automobile as a deadly weapon? Since you can not rule that out any more than Mike can rule out the same WRT his handgun(s), I figure that (...) (25 years ago, 1-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Right. Just pop a cap in each knee and let the f@*#er get away easy. :-) (...) Right. Ya pays ya money ya takes ya chances. The burgler chose a line of work that was likely to be short-lived. (...) Oops, maybe I was wrong in my earlier note. (25 years ago, 1-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) <SNIP> (...) OK, I don't agree with you on gun control, but I agree with this statement. I don't see any difference between running the country (government) and running a business. One issue that comes to mind is a top heavy business. If the (...) (25 years ago, 1-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Ha, so he could go find himself a bloodsucker and sue *you*!! And he'd prolly win. It's the American Way... (...) (25 years ago, 1-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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On Mon, 31 May 1999 23:04:38 GMT, John Neal uttered the following profundities... (...) I watched it at work. :o) Watch mindless drivel? Or watch the dribbling mindless? (1) (1) Sort-of supervisory position....work for an airline.(2) (2) May or may (...) (25 years ago, 1-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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On Tue, 1 Jun 1999 00:17:12 GMT, Jasper Janssen uttered the following profundities... (...) Even higher-tech! But those are jobs that potentially pay very well in the west. There are bound to be some regional-margin, profit potential products, where (...) (25 years ago, 1-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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On Mon, 31 May 1999 22:11:06 GMT, Larry Pieniazek uttered the following profundities... (...) We agree on something. Even though most that have been executed have no doubt received a correct conviction, the irreversibility of it.... Productivity (...) (25 years ago, 1-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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On Tue, 1 Jun 1999 18:35:52 GMT, Frank Filz uttered the following profundities... (...) Probably not known about because it is too common an occurrence, in countries where capital punishment exists, or has existed. (If it happens twice, anywhere, (...) (25 years ago, 1-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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On Mon, 31 May 1999 23:10:10 GMT, Mike Stanley uttered the following profundities... <snipped for brevity> (...) Perhaps I might have worded it more specifically, such as you surprise a burglar, wearing shorts, no shirt, holding a tv or castle in (...) (25 years ago, 1-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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On Tue, 1 Jun 1999 02:21:22 GMT, Mike Stanley uttered the following profundities... (...) Road building. People always need new roads. Roads always need repair. Cleaning of public monuments or buildings. With a toothbrush. Mining. With a hammer and (...) (25 years ago, 1-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Cleaning? Building! The Egyptians built the Pyramids with hand labor, I'm sure we could too. Or a row of sphinxes, each with the likeness of a president...one each. (...) Honestly, I think it's silly to waste their time...why not seek to use (...) (25 years ago, 2-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) While I do agree that prisoners should be put to work, the Bill of Rights also has a statement about cruel and unusual punishments. Also, overly mindless work is likely to result in more problems in prison. I say give them less desireable, yet (...) (25 years ago, 2-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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On Tue, 1 Jun 1999 20:11:48 GMT, Duane Hess uttered the following profundities... How depressing. I posted non-controversial things. People actually agreed with a statement or two I had made. Should go to fun instead of debate. A country is a (...) (25 years ago, 2-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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On Tue, 1 Jun 1999 19:45:08 GMT, Christopher L. Weeks uttered the following profundities... (...) And, as much as I hate guns, can no more say now how my opinions would change (or not) had I or someone close to me been, or should become, a victim of (...) (25 years ago, 2-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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<MPG.11be590bb94e339...ugnet.com> <37553A69.6AA0B7DF@c...souri.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) I do not think that the Egyptians built the (...) (25 years ago, 2-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: constitutional discussion (was:Re: Gun debate (was Re: New Web Page
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On Tue, 1 Jun 1999 19:21:06 GMT, Christopher L. Weeks uttered the following profundities... (...) But horses are non-humanoid quadrapeds, and slaves were in fact bipedal humanoid. The only difference between slaves and non-slaves were skin kerotin (...) (25 years ago, 2-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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On Wed, 2 Jun 1999 14:09:10 GMT, Christopher L. Weeks uttered the following profundities... (...) But it should be punishment, as well as rehabilitation, no? (25 years ago, 2-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) No particular LP stance. Divisive issue, but we're a big tent. There are those of the libertarian persuasion, including myself, who are not convinced that soverignity requires territoriality, that is, that only one governmental system should (...) (25 years ago, 3-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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<MPG.11be590bb94e339...ugnet.com> <37553A69.6AA0B7DF@c...souri.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) Question: Would Grover Cleveland get two? :) LFB. (25 years ago, 3-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) No. Well, sort of. This will fly in the face of what many people believe, but punishment - in and of itself - is silly. Punishment only makes sense if it will achieve some outcome...typically teaching a lesson. When children are punished, most (...) (25 years ago, 3-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I have not been convinced of the existance of some ancient astronauts who would have helped out. I do not believe that they are a recent project. This only leaves the ancients. (25 years ago, 3-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I agree that the distinction was foolish, and it was clear that some (Jefferson possibly) slave owners purposfully deluded themselves because they had it so good with slaves. nontheless, I think that is the explanation of why slaves didn't (...) (25 years ago, 3-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) Is it really a divisive issue? (...) Puhleeese? We can all read The Machinery of Freedom and discuss the historical legal system of Iceland and relate how a PPL might (...) (25 years ago, 3-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 (...) But then there's no competition, so they don't have any incentive to increase value. Steve (25 years ago, 3-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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<375581D8.3E8859C3@uswest.net> <37568EBF.4515046D@c...souri.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) But of course! [1] Actually, Dr. Graham Hancock (URL) (...) (25 years ago, 3-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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On Thu, 3 Jun 1999 14:50:20 GMT, Christopher L. Weeks uttered the following profundities... (...) They did get a lot of other things correct, though. A shame it took another 109 years for the world to become re- enlightened. (Cuba in 1898 I believe (...) (25 years ago, 3-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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On Thu, 3 Jun 1999 14:22:07 GMT, Christopher L. Weeks uttered the following profundities... (...) I am sure we agree somewhere in there, except for maybe the interpretation of punishment. The work would be productive, & repay the debt to society (...) (25 years ago, 3-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 On Thu, 3 Jun 1999 00:05:56 GMT, Larry Pieniazek uttered the following profundities... (...) I shall perhaps look that up. One example which came to mind was the Mars Trilogy by Kim Stanley Robinson. (...) (...) (25 years ago, 3-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) By all means Troll away. :-) Might be fun. Though it will inevitably lead to someone mentioning that Von Daniken (sp?) guy. (oh wait, I just did) -- Terry K -- (25 years ago, 3-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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<3756A767.EB4CE78@uswest.net> <37570950.2349784@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) See, it was inevitable. ;-) (25 years ago, 4-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) And everyone is going to tremble when Alabama gets the bomb... (25 years ago, 4-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Or for a slightly darker, and shorter, look, try the Spike Bike series, available on the internet. Jasper (25 years ago, 5-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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On Thu, 3 Jun 1999 15:47:24 GMT, blisses@worldnet.att.net (Steve Bliss) wrote: <governments> (...) Sure there is. There is just as much competition between governments as between companies. There's over 200 countries on this globe. Contrast _that_ (...) (25 years ago, 5-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) + All right, Humphrey, close down the hospital. - Yes, Prime Minister. Jasper (25 years ago, 5-Jun-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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