Subject:
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Re: Gun debate (was Re: New Web Page
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Fri, 14 May 1999 14:06:59 GMT
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Reply-To:
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lpien@ctp.iwantnospam./SayNoToSpam/com
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Viewed:
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935 times
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Ed Jones wrote:
> The founding fathers intent was clearly for the residents of America
> to be able to defend themselves against the British and any other
> possible "invaders". To be able to easily and quickly assemble armed
> forces for any impending attacks.
No, sorry. You're wrong. Not possible to convince you that you are, but
you are, nonetheless. The intent was to be the final check. A disarmed
populace falls victim to tyranny much more easily, no matter what the
source. Read the federalist papers, study why the revolution happened.
Remember that the British (the lawful government of the colonies) were
an oppressive regime that was busily enforcing gun control, among other
tyrannies.
The second amendment clearly states in the language of the 1790s that it
is there to allow the people to take arms against their lawful, but
tyrannical, government. The first step of a tyrannical government is to
disarm the populace.
You're wrong about the second amendment. Not possible to convince you
that you are, but you are, nonetheless.
> The right to bear arms - arms in those days were muskets - not machine guns,
> not missle launchers, not oozies, etc., etc., etc.
c /oozies/uzis/ (although oozie does evoke a certain imagery, does it
not?)
The right to bear arms is the right to bear whatever the most modern
hand carryable technology of the day is. Else the fathers would have
written the amendment to restrict the citizenry to bows and arrows,
because, after all, muskets were far more deadly and only the government
should have the good stuff.
> But isn't that exactly what caused Colorado??? Children with easy access to
> attack arms.
That may be the apparent proximate cause, but the real cause lies
deeper.
It lies with a school system that cannot deal with troublemakers and
troubled children because it cannot expel them and cannot put them in
treatment, educational theories that teach that there are no "correct"
morals, everything is relative, and it's OK to blow people away,
bureacracies and unions that are not incented to teach, and with a
society that absolves parents of responsibility for the actions of their
children.
Those are just as soundbitish, but they are more accurate than saying
that people get killed in auto accidents because gasoline is too easily
available, which is the argument that gun control advocates use.
One more time, slowly. Guns are tools. Criminals will use the best tools
available no matter what their legality. If you want to stop crime, get
at the root causes, not the tools. Tool control harms the honest, not
the criminal.
This argument is correct and irrefutable. But you won't agree so there's
no point in this discussion. I just suffer from lastword-itis as badly
as the rest of us do.
Any doctor will tell you that you cannot cure a disease by treating the
symptoms, unless you are certain that treating the symptoms will buy the
body time to heal itself. Controlling guns is treating the symptoms and
the body is too sick for that strategy to work.
>
> The right to bear arms, to the NRA, guarantees the right to use those arms
> indiscriminately and without repercussion.
That is the biggest mischaracterisation in your entire post and you know
it. The right to bear arms must fit within the framework of the rule of
law. We do not currently live under a tyranny so perfidious that taking
to the streets is called for, and we never can tolerate the initiation
of the use of force. Citizens must respect the rights of others.
Tools are subject to misuse, there is no perfect society, but we must
allow for the bad with the good. The upside of an armed, honest, law
abiding and polite populace far outweights the downside. But there is a
downside. We cannot legislate cause and effect out of existence, so
there is no perfect society.
I challenge you to find an official NRA statement that supports your
position.
--
Larry Pieniazek http://my.voyager.net/lar
FDIC Know your Customer is wounded, thanks to you, but not dead...
See http://www.defendyourprivacy.com for details
For me: No voyager e-mail please. All snail-mail to Ada, please.
- Posting Binaries to RTL causes flamage... Don't do it, please.
- Stick to the facts when posting about others, please.
- This is a family newsgroup, thanks.
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Message has 3 Replies:
 | | Re: Gun debate (was Re: New Web Page
|
| (...) Oh, Larry. You're not going to fall back on that tired "personal responsibility for personal actions" argument again, are you? When will you understand that the *government* is responsible for all our actions, or the companies who sold us (...) (26 years ago, 14-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Gun debate (was Re: New Web Page
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| (...) Something I'd like to add is that I recently read some historical accounts of April 19, 1775 (British march on Concord, Paul Revere, shot heard round the world and all that). Almost all of the colonial casualties that day were civilians (...) (26 years ago, 14-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Gun debate (was Re: New Web Page
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| (...) Yeah. Right. You're making this claim way too boldly here, IMHO. Oppressive to the colonies, hell yes, but oppressive in its own society? Not very. IOW, that does not an oppressive regime make. So, why haven't I seen anyone point to the two (...) (25 years ago, 28-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: Gun debate (was Re: New Web Page
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| (...) The founding fathers intent was clearly for the residents of America to be able to defend themselves against the British and any other possible "invaders". To be able to easily and quickly assemble armed forces for any impending attacks. The (...) (26 years ago, 14-May-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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