 | | An armed society...
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... is a society with countless tragedies! Sorry Heinlein, your sci-fi books were all fantastic, but your ideas suck. (22 years ago, 19-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Where is this comming from? The guy is dead. Furthermore an unarmed society only works in Star Trek, where people actually have no apparent reason to fear their neighbors or their government. (22 years ago, 19-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Eh? Where'd this come from? Are you trying to manufacture a political debate? Anyway, as a strictly amateur political scientist[1] I would never make such a blatant generalization. It depends on the culture, the state of mind of the society in (...) (22 years ago, 19-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Yes, I've heard about Switzerland, I even passed though it once. Their knifes and watches are famous and their bank system is a paradise for tax refugees. Also Americans always confuse Sweden and Switzerland, so I sure have about it. What (...) (22 years ago, 20-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) According to my (admittedly rather poor) knowledge of Switzerland, it is the perfect example of an armed society, with one of the highest gun-ownership levels in the world. It also has a massive national service program. According to my SBS (...) (22 years ago, 21-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) It sounds like you need to move house. ;) Scott A (...) (22 years ago, 21-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) It is covered in detail here: (URL) country has a population of six million, but there are estimated to be at least two million publicly-owned firearms, including about 600,000 automatic rifles and 500,000 pistols. This is in a very large part (...) (22 years ago, 21-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I don't know too much about Switzerland, but I tend to take the view of the nations as a very special place. They are kinda outsiders with respect to international politics, as they are not members of NATO nor the EU. So I'm not surprised to (...) (22 years ago, 21-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) way we can consider a system a success. Chris (22 years ago, 21-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Running away from problems might not be his style. ;) Chris (22 years ago, 21-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) This system is fairly similar to that in Norway. A fair amount of those men who undergo the compulsory military service are enrolled in "Heimevernet", probably fairly similar to the US National Guard. They keep an automatic rifle (AG3) at (...) (22 years ago, 21-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) The system is not to my liking on a number of levels... but I am no fan of national service. I wonder if the Swiss navy uses the same system? ;) Scott A (...) (22 years ago, 21-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I would suggest bringing a gun into his own home is no solution. Statistically, who is he most likely to shoot with the gun? Scott A (...) (22 years ago, 21-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) /objective mode on Well ignoring the propaganda on both sides of the Gun Control issue, and using indepentant statistics from Gallup Polls. This is all applicable to the USA. Roughly 10,000 crimes a year are committed with legally obtained (...) (22 years ago, 21-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) No one. Chris (22 years ago, 21-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) How many are prevented by unarmed citizens? How many times are guns used as a threat when there is no need? Does that count as a prevented crime? (...) That is because statistically legal gun owners are white middle income americans living in (...) (22 years ago, 21-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) In some countries, democratic elections are used for mostly the same effect. Fredrik (22 years ago, 21-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Exactly. Gun control is completely about control, but both sides of this issue fail to see the bigger picture--why do people obey the law, and those that break the law, why do they do that? When society gets to the point where everyone obeys (...) (22 years ago, 21-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) As Stalin so eloquently put it; "Those who cast the votes decide nothing, those who count the votes decide everything." Just remember Hittler was an elected offical. Also note that the United States Gun Control act of 1968 is virtually word (...) (22 years ago, 21-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Hitler was never elected chancellor. He never had more than ~35% of the vote. Scott A (22 years ago, 21-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Can I ask you a rhetorical question, while still staying with the Hitler subject? Hitler was a vegetarian. Does that prove anything about vegetarians? Fredrik (22 years ago, 21-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) You can ask a rhetorical question and you can ask someone a question but you cannot ask someone a rhetorical question for when you ask a rhetorical question you don't want and/or expect an answer, as in, "What's up with that?" You can ask a (...) (22 years ago, 21-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Flawed Logic. You have assumed I stated something along the lines of "[Hitler was an Elected offical therefore elected officals are bad]" What I stated, or at least was trying to convey, was that Hitler was an elected offical therefore (...) (22 years ago, 21-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Well, let's rephrase the question, since you seem to be invoking the "chances are he'll never use the gun at all" escape clause. Assuming the gun is at some point fired (other than for hunting or target practice) who is statistically the most (...) (22 years ago, 21-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) using (...) Not very many. They would tend to get shot for trying. (...) Only criminals use guns as a threat when there is no need. That is why they are criminals. (...) All things being equal otherwise, in areas where it is eaiser to legally (...) (22 years ago, 21-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Let's take the Hitler example, then. Hitler was not only democratically elected (although I doubt the soundness of the process), but he also enjoyed massive, sincere support from the population. Still, I feel confident that there were heaps of (...) (22 years ago, 21-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) This is more or less identical to the old "we've discovered 2/3 of all the oil in the world" argument. What qualifies as a "crime," in your example? What qualifies as "preventing" a "crime" in your example? If my possession of a handgun (...) (22 years ago, 21-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) No, I assumed you said something to the effect of "document A is similar to document B issued by Hitler, therefore document A is bad". Fredrik (22 years ago, 21-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Cite, please. I'd like to read evidence of the "all economic and social classes" bit. (...) Cite, please. I would say that of all family members shot by other family members, 100% are shot by guns (well, the people who wield them). Before (...) (22 years ago, 21-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Before some of the sillier rhetoric goes much further -- the historical reason for the 2nd Amendment in the U.S. is exactly as Mike states in the above. Yes, we have a system of checks and balances. Yes, we are supposed to have separate (...) (22 years ago, 21-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) social (...) In the SIRS from the local Library. Skip the NRA surveys and the Hangun Control Inc. surveys. Propaganda from either side is irrelivent. The Gallup Poll surveys and studies are the ones Congress uses (or at least is supposed to (...) (22 years ago, 21-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Most of the "major news stories" have been geared to distract the average mindless American into thinking they need the federal Government. The Y2K farce was a good example of that. Personally I really hope that some government faction did not (...) (22 years ago, 21-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) is (...) a (...) Not all crimes involve firearms. (...) Or people without enough information to decide whether there is a need or not. If Joe Six-pack sees a shop-lifter, and pulls out his legal firearm to stop them, when not required, does (...) (22 years ago, 21-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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[snip] (...) ownership (...) Well ABC news had a 20/20 report about a county in the USA. (I forget exactly where) That county had one of the highest crime rates in the country. A policy was enacted that required all able bodied, law abiding citizens (...) (22 years ago, 22-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) And we can always trust reporters to get the whole story 8?) (...) policy (...) fire (...) I'd be interested in more information about this. How did they ensure that non-law-abiding citizens didn't carry guns? Over what period did the change (...) (22 years ago, 22-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) In fact, they do need the Federal government, and so do you. How secure would the commercial shipping infrastructure be if our borders were not secure? How secure would US commerce be without the backing of the full-faith-and-credit of the US (...) (22 years ago, 22-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Interestingly, there was an article on BBC Radio 4 last night about crime control methods in Europe. Some facts about Switzerland: + Their crime rate is half the EU average (Switzerland is not part of the EU) + Their police force is around the (...) (22 years ago, 22-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) So why are you here moaning about gun control when "totalitarian factions in the US" are denying trial by jury to people? Is it because is not you or you family who is being held without charge? Scott A (22 years ago, 22-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) If I remember correctly from my school days, the 1932 vote in question earned the NSDAP around 37% of the votes, and Hitler was nominated chancellor with the help of some conservative politicians. I think there was also a later vote in 1933 (...) (22 years ago, 22-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) He was appointed chancellor by Hindenburg, despite the relative majority vote, because other options were voided (other parties were unable to form stable coalitions or fronts against NSDAP). So, in a way he WAS elected. There isn't an (...) (22 years ago, 22-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Sort of. It (coupled with an assumption about the eating habits of other bad men(tm) ) demonstrates that the big bad men in the world are less likely to be vegetarian. Vote vegetarian! Chris (22 years ago, 22-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) So? Everyone has the right to own a jumbojet loaded with fuel, or surface to air missles (depending on your point) too. Chris (22 years ago, 22-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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I'm sorta me-tooing, but hey, why not? (...) And our borders aren't 100% secure--and see what problems that wreaks? Imagine if we were fully balkanized--just look at the operation of the US under the Articles of Confederation if you want to see the (...) (22 years ago, 22-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Where would I find that stat? Chris (22 years ago, 22-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Well, not according to the 2nd Amendment, The Constitution in general, or in any litigation thus far brought before the Supreme Court. More specifically, the government's authority to regulate the ownership of arms by private citizens has (...) (22 years ago, 22-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I've read (and I'll try to find out where) that a gun in the home is X number of times more statistically likely to kill or injure a member of the household than an intruder. I'll try to find a web reference. Dave! (22 years ago, 22-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I've read (and I'll try to find out where) that a gun in the home is X number of times more statistically likely to kill or injure a member of the household than it is likely to kill or injure an intruder. I'll try to find a web reference. (...) (22 years ago, 22-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) While Y2K deserved much of the concern raised, it really was overblown. I don't remember how many times I had to re-explain exactly what the Y2K exposure of our product was, and it was a minor problem in that the next time the machine booted (...) (22 years ago, 22-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) You were lucky if that was the only problem you had to contend with. I was involved with the upgrade of a mainframe PIMS application, customised by the client from an OTS package, which needed major changes regarding data entry, reports, and (...) (22 years ago, 22-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I agree. You guys are heaps better off than us Aussies, just look at cheap LEGO availability 8?) ROSCO FUT .fun (22 years ago, 22-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Heh. Sorry, I'm so used to subsuming Oceana into the Western European cultural ecumene that I'm doing it geographically too. :) LFB (22 years ago, 23-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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(...) Why not indeed? Beats the heck out of butting in on a technicality while skirting the main issue, which is what I'm doing! (...) Many who live elsewhere do regard ours as an amazingly libertine society (isn't that one of the reasons they hate (...) (22 years ago, 23-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Well, getting back to the main issue of this subthread... ...check out: (URL) looks like the government printing office to me, and should be reasonably authoritative. In "Miller" the court seems to be dancing around questions of what kinds of (...) (22 years ago, 23-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Well I will admit that my statement was a bit "boneheaded" :-) What I was intending to convey was not what I typed. (Narf!) The US armed forces, the treasury, EPA, CIA, and FBI are some of the major organizations that are vital to the country. (...) (22 years ago, 23-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Well given that these particular reporters lean toward supporting gun control I would tend to assume the did their job (of being objective) by coming to the opposite conclusion. (...) anyway? (...) The SIRS are release yearly. 1 year ago is (...) (22 years ago, 23-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Richard Marchetti writes: [massive snip] (...) Probably wouldn't exist as they currently are, no. Who's to say what society would be like without firearms (or the fists, rocks, and swords which preceded them). Doesn't (...) (22 years ago, 23-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I don't happen to care what happens in Australia. Is there some reason I should? Y'all should do as pleases Australians best. -- Hop-Frog (22 years ago, 23-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Thanks for the suggestion. But if you're not interested in what happens in other countries, why should you worry about the laws in other US states? Maybe you don't? If you do, why should they worry about your opinion? They have their own laws. (...) (22 years ago, 23-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Sorry, gotta nitpick: Canada and Australia had no violent rebellions against British rule, yet both became de facto independent by roughly 1900. [1] A failure to revolt against British rule would not have kept us under anyone's thumb, it (...) (22 years ago, 23-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) The Federal system means that any precedent set in another state may affect our own laws--certainly, they will when we drive through, or relocate to, said state, and most American families are spread through many states. So I'd argue that it's (...) (22 years ago, 23-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Well, there is stuff that is covered by the federal government to make trade and travel amongst the many states more or less an easy thing -- one of the true limited purposes of the U.S. federal govt. I have no problems with any of that. But (...) (22 years ago, 23-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate) !
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(...) Um, I was kind of playing, but what do you mean? I think the 2nd is pretty clear on the matter. The issue of how the Supreme Court has allowed the curtailing of our constitutional rights is interesting, but I'm not sure that I'm ready to (...) (22 years ago, 23-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I hope for a good solid citation -- one that you would accept if our stances were reversed, not just some Newsweek opinion. The NRA tells us that those are made up by evil liberal-agendad politicians like Moynihan. Kleck and Kates (IIRC) (...) (22 years ago, 23-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Court rules that the right to keep and bear arms is specifically guaranteed in the U.S. Constitution." What does that mean? It seems self-evident and not something on which the court would need to rule. So I assume it means something more. (...) (22 years ago, 23-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) What if a society is mature enough to decide that guns have no place in the community? Is that society no longer "free"? Scott A (22 years ago, 23-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Well, the NRA can hardly be taken as a bastion of objective reporting, so it's difficult to accept its pronouncements at face value. One could point out, for example, the NRA has perpetuated the lie that the 2nd Amendment says anything at all (...) (22 years ago, 23-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Ah, the dangers of abridged source material. I found a more extensive discussion of that case at: (URL) appears that the case involved due process and the right to use one's property (in this case, residence) as one sees fit, as is spelled out (...) (22 years ago, 23-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Well, the original Presidential Oath of Office, according to the Constitution, is: I do solemnly swear/affirm that I will faithfully execute the Office of the President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, (...) (22 years ago, 23-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) But according to the Constitution, it is the Court that is empowered to interpret the law. (...) I've had a small and far-too-late epiphany on this matter, or at least on how to articulate my feelings about it, so I think I might finally have (...) (22 years ago, 23-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Mike Petrucelli talked about the possibility of using a gun to shoot a politician who was threating to take away his freedom. (If I understood him correctly.) I don't have any statistical data for this, but I have a feeling that this kind of (...) (22 years ago, 23-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) In a Pythonesque link, you cannot carry a Swiss Army knife into Legoland California. Even one with a brick seperator...? :-) Bruce (who had to leave his Master Tinker at Guest Relations) (22 years ago, 23-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) So Oslo is a bit like LEGOLand? Interesting! There are quite many toy shops (and almost all of them stock LEGO) in Oslo. My experience with other European capitals indicate that Oslo has more toy shops. But this may be related to my local (...) (22 years ago, 23-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Of course they're still free... until someone comes and takes that freedom away. Then those "free" people might wish they had the means to keep that freedom. (22 years ago, 23-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Hi everyone, Just an aside: No matter how well-written a .o-t.debate post is, is it really appropriate to go about highlighting it for the front page, given the number of people who studiously avoid and abhor this forum? (Yes, I know that 9/11 was (...) (22 years ago, 23-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Strange that you view that as an eventuality rather than a possibility. I prefer life in a society where we are able to take the decision to live largely without guns. Earlier, somebody said they needed a gun for protection from the big bad (...) (22 years ago, 23-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) This avoids Dave!'s point: the "liberal media" mantra is just that. It's a cheap label that intends to dismiss criticism of anything conservatives support as biased. Some, of course, is biased in the liberal direction. But some is biased in (...) (22 years ago, 23-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) <snip> (...) Yes, it is an eventuality. History repeats itself. Slavery in America would have been far different (and purhaps nonexistent) had the Africans been armed. The Jews may have avoided the Holocaust. An entire nation may not have been (...) (22 years ago, 23-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) But we need guns to prevent crime, right? Oh, wait... According to (URL)Most people took multiple precautions during the last year to protect (...) So it's a good thing we need to protect ourselves from the Guvmint--otherwise we wouldn't have (...) (22 years ago, 23-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) We don't have to look much further than the last U.S. Presidential election to find confirmation in that! (...) Rule Number 1 of political debates: He Who Mentions Hitler First Loses! :-) Bruce (22 years ago, 23-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Can we amend that rule so that the first mention of "Big Brother," "jackbooted thugs," or "brave new world" in any non-literary context is likewise a forfeiture? Dave! (22 years ago, 23-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...(what if?)
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With every gun debate I see/read, it seems to me more people would rather live unarmed. I seems likely to me that, within my lifetime, guns will be outlawed from private citizens. Why do I think this likely? Because I just don't see enough people (...) (22 years ago, 23-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Well, the obvious source is by Kellerman and Reay: "Protection or Peril? An Analysis of Firearm Related Deaths in the Home." The New England Journal of Medicine, vol. 314, no. 24, June 1986, pp. 1557-60. Gun apologists cite poor methodology (...) (22 years ago, 23-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) You are noting the difference between the "holding" in a decision, and what is termed "obiter dictum." ob·i·ter dic·tum, pl. ob·i·ter dic·ta. 1. an incidental or passing remark, opinion, etc. 2. Law. an incidental or supplementary opinion by a (...) (22 years ago, 23-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Well, in terms of Constitutional interpretation, it *is* the supreme word on the matter, until either congress legislates a higher law or another case before the Supreme Court results in an overturning of Miller. (...) Here's the text: (URL) I (...) (22 years ago, 23-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) abridged citations, right? I am just not wasting my time picking apart the wording and finding facts and figures to contradict yours -- I know they exist. We aren't going to settle this discussion in any way by arguing over statistics. BTW, (...) (22 years ago, 23-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) My point is that it's one thing for an author (not you, but the guy who put up that site) to cite an anecdotal and misrepresentational summary of a ruling, and it's quite another to post a link to an entire argument and highlight certain areas (...) (22 years ago, 23-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Dave, your post is too full of errors to take on as a whole so I picked just this one spot. I think it is also an erroneous statement. I could certainly mount arguments that would show that the second amendment is indeed a protection to keep (...) (22 years ago, 23-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...(what if?)
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(...) To do otherwise means you have to take on BY CHOICE the life forced upon Frodo and Sam Wise in LOTR -- to risk everything at each new moment striving for freedom. It's so much easier to build a series of temporary autonomous zones, and just (...) (22 years ago, 23-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...
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(...) Then it's odd that the NRA, the most vociferous and organized proponents of so-called gun rights, has never brought a case successfully before the Supreme Court, despite numerous opportunities to try. You are of course correct regarding the (...) (22 years ago, 23-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...
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(...) Actually, you would be missing the "duty" part of my argument in this little debate. But whatever... To fully understand the historical context of this debate, it is my opinion that those on the side of gun-control should read William (...) (22 years ago, 23-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...
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(...) I have posted about the Ashwander Doctrine before -- read it and connect the dots, pretty please. (URL) the record, I am not exactly a card-carrying NRA kinda guy...I barely care what they do. (...) No, taxation is Constitutional because of (...) (22 years ago, 23-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...
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(...) [snip] (...) I think discounting the possibility of change is short-sighted. The world changes. Laws change. Governments change. People change. Maybe this hasn't changed in a long time, but the fact there's a significant opposition to it (...) (22 years ago, 23-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...(what if?)
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(...) This could be the case, but it could also be the case that people think the need for such a right has passed. I would think it would take either a consititutional amendment (no easy thing) or a series of presidents that had a litmus test on (...) (22 years ago, 23-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...
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(...) Since this has evolved into a gun control debate, I thought the original message should be returned to. "An armed society is a polite society," is the quote used often by gun advocates to somehow indicate that politeness-by-threat is somehow (...) (22 years ago, 23-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...(what if?)
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(...) And a Lugnet contributor and featured guest of BricksWest is proof that it IS possible to win against the government after one of these outrageous confiscations... Frank (22 years ago, 24-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Definitions (was: An armed society...)
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(...) Hmmmf. Doesn't that definition also depend on the meaning of "citizen"? ROSCO (nit-picking again) (22 years ago, 24-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Definitions (was: An armed society...)
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(...) In a way that's my point, ultimately one has to admit that one knows precisely what a word means and stop playing the semantics game. The semantics game is almost endless if the point is to NEVER reach accord. My point was to show that there (...) (22 years ago, 24-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | "facts" (was Re: An armed society...)
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(...) <snip> I've been thinking about "facts" lately. Specifically statistics, polls, charts/graphs...etc. If pro gun advocates use "facts" to show the need for guns, anti-gun advocates can show just as many "facts" to show the uselessness of guns. (...) (22 years ago, 24-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Richard Marchetti writes: <snip> (...) I am SO glad someone FINALLY brought this up! The Federal Reserve and the 16th Amendment were beget by President Wilson. Mr. Wilson was heavily influenced by a friend of the (...) (22 years ago, 24-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Wouldn't it be nice if Americans woke up before they have to learn the hard way. Well Thomas Jefferson at least knew that we would one day reach the point where the Declaration of Independance would need to be re-issued. It is nice to know (...) (22 years ago, 24-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...(what if?)
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(...) Be sure to thank the media for setting the people straight on the matter. (...) President Wilson managed to sign into law the Federal Reserve as well as the 16th Amendment. (...) The individual cases are not conspiracies unto themselves. The (...) (22 years ago, 24-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) amen (22 years ago, 24-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Nonsense. (...) What about the native americans, were they not armed? (...) Not me personally. The community I live in. (...) Democracy is the limit. In the UK governments have fallen due to protests, not armed rebellion. When will the USA (...) (22 years ago, 24-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) So, if I understand your implication, you're saying that taking safety measure X is dumb if it is less helpful than safety measure Y. Right? Inherent in that idea is that only one safety precaution is appropriate, right? So if I surveyed (...) (22 years ago, 24-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) ...and then use it as an excellent selling point on his website! ;) best LFB (22 years ago, 24-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) And don't forget, the 2001 equivalent of the H-bomb: "Osama bin Laden." best LFB (22 years ago, 24-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...(what if?)
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(...) What does it mean to "live unarmed?" I'd wager that living armed can vary--if you have a handgun locked away somewhere in the home, that's very different from "packing" 24/7/365. I'd bet that the vast majority--more than 95%--of gun owners fit (...) (22 years ago, 24-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) In no.* groups, we have a rule which goes: Whenever the Hitler name is mentioned, the thread is decleared dead. This is called "to hitle" a thread. :) Fredrik (22 years ago, 24-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Bwaaa! You just made my day, Fredrik. LFB (22 years ago, 24-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) What's the difference if the gun is at home or at a person's side, they are still armed to protect themselves. As the law stands people still have the right to arm themselves, which is what the gun debate is all about to begin with. I simply (...) (22 years ago, 24-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...
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(...) Here you are being a fool. The Native Americans were lulled into a trust with the colonies. As time wore on, they began to depend on European lifestlyes, including hunting with rifles. Later as conflict grew, their population was largely (...) (22 years ago, 24-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...
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(...) So the oppressors had better weapons? Hmm, does your big bad government not have better weapons also? (...) They were armed. It is you who think that arms can protect you against a well trained force - I'm not so sure. (...) You mean France? (...) (22 years ago, 24-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...(what if?)
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(...) But we all know that Gamers (weird) can't be affected by the Secret Service (government) - it was a foregone conclusion. Fnord. Bruce (22 years ago, 24-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...(what if?)
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(...) Well, what do you expect? They put together a step-by-step manual of how to hack into every computer on the planet. Naturally the Secret Service had to take steps. Dave! (22 years ago, 24-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...(what if?)
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(...) For those keeping score at home, Kirby just stated in writing that his understanding is based on ignorance. Dave! (22 years ago, 24-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...(what if?)
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(...) I'm not sure what your point is or how you can draw that conclusion (I already addressed your "liberal media" comment - did I miss the reply?). (...) Well, you lost me again. What does that have to do with gun control? And passing a (...) (22 years ago, 24-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...
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(...) Does Charles the First count as a fallen government and parliment as an armed rebellion? :-) Was America part of the UK and did the UK government (locally) fall because of the rebellion or was it never in power? Bruce (not being particularly (...) (22 years ago, 24-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...(what if?)
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(...) So let's see, people who don't come to the same conclusion as you do, given the same evidence, are ignorant? No--rather, I'd argue that you've determined the "truth"--or the end conclusion--before you went out looking for evidence. I'm still (...) (22 years ago, 24-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...
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(...) No. In the British context, the Government is the Prime Minister and the Secretaries he or she assembles. The Monarch is, well, the Monarch. And it's not an armed rebellion, it was a Civil War. ;) (...) No. "United Kingdom" refers only to (...) (22 years ago, 24-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...
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(...) I meant to comment on this yesterday but didn't get around to it. You appear to be very fond of this quote; in looking for your post I searched for "+Brady +socialist" and found that you've previously cited the quote another two times. Three (...) (22 years ago, 24-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | ??? (was Re: An armed society...(what if?))
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(...) LFB, Kirby is a little too conspiracy prone for my taste also (really, it's his one obvious debate flaw), but that doesn't mean that he is wrong -- the fact is, Kirby is right in most of the broader strokes of his statements, even if he screws (...) (22 years ago, 24-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: ??? (was Re: An armed society...(what if?))
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(...) Hey, I resent that. I can be just as annoying and fierce privately as publicly. Dave! (22 years ago, 24-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | Re: ???
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(...) I hope that my rail against the intentionalist part of his statements doesn't come across as a "hunky-dory" sense of complacency. If you look at the end of my other message, you'll see the point--there are problems, and they DO need to be (...) (22 years ago, 24-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...(what if?)
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(...) Bruce, I agree with your take on why the laws were placed. However, I do think that a conspiracy evolved. Law enforcement's most important lobby is the continuation of the War On Drugs. Not because it's the right thing but because if we quit (...) (22 years ago, 24-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: "facts" (was Re: An armed society...)
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(...) In an attempt to get closer to the "truth," what else would you suggest? (...) Everyone likes facts that agree with them and discard facts that disagree. Everyone. I find myself doing the same when reading the gun stats cited by Dave! And I'm (...) (22 years ago, 24-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) They were. And in general, one injun vs. one settler and I'd bet on the injun. The problem is that they were locally massively outnumbered. (And not organized on the larger scale, of course.) (...) This is the traditional way that Britain (...) (22 years ago, 24-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...
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(...) The advantage of having a regular army have been proved in WW2. Otherwise, how could Britain have resisted? In comparison, the US took a lot of time to turn the tides of war, and I'd bet a considerable amount of time between Dec '41 and '43 (...) (22 years ago, 24-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...
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(...) the (...) Dunno about LFB, but I think the destruction of the Aussie aboriginals was more related to power & bigotry than economics. ROSCO (22 years ago, 24-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...(what if?)
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(...) I wouldn't call that a "conspiracy". They don't have to be clandestine to lobby for the continuation of the "war on drugs", in good or bad faith. I'd just as soon see the drugs legalized and have the drug dealers and drug-law enforcers put out (...) (22 years ago, 24-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...
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(...) In a sense, they're the same thing. You can't occupy land that someone else is living on. But the introduction of money taxes-- thus requiring colonial peoples to earn money, and thereby alien- ating them from the land and subsistence--was the (...) (22 years ago, 24-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...
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(...) chance (...) the (...) Well, for a start, anyone who happens to be shooting at me. Even if they're doing it in support of a nation-idea against which I am fighting. (...) So no nation would gain by taking the goods of another? I don't see that (...) (22 years ago, 25-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Well if I can find out where I read it, I will be happy to tell everyone. I do know that it was extremely unlikely that it was fake, otherwise I would not be quoting it. Then again we are talking about conspiracies here. :-) At any rate I will (...) (22 years ago, 25-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...(what if?)
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(...) For one semester in 1988, I was playing with being a criminal justice major. It ended up being really dull, so I moved on to several other major fields. But in that process I determined that there are cops who know what's going on and why (...) (22 years ago, 25-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: ??? (was Re: An armed society...(what if?))
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(...) Well I am certainly glad you did. You explained much that I know to be true, (and a good bit that I did not) but could not convey as effectively as you. Writing is just not my strong subject. (barring fiction of course :-) ) (...) Amen. (...) (...) (22 years ago, 25-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) the (...) Prior to WWII Germany was in debt to france for reparations from WWI. It was also in the midst of a huge economic crisis. It was literally cheaper to burn money than it was to buy coal. -Mike Petrucelli (22 years ago, 25-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...
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(...) …sounds like globalisation to me? ;) (...) Orginisation is also a factor. (...) I think the last people to invade the UK were the Vikings. But Scotalnd has been invaded a few times since then. But then so has England. ;) Scott A (...) (22 years ago, 25-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...
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(...) Err. I live in a "middle income" area - crime is very low, and nobody has guns. Can this be explained? Scott A (...) (22 years ago, 25-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: ???
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(...) <snip> (...) I think you've read me wrong. I don't fear a "systemic failure" (I assume you mean the collapse of society?) What I fear is the *enslavement* of our society. At many levels we are already slaves. So long as we depend upon (...) (22 years ago, 25-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...(what if?)
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(...) As further clarification, it might be useful to distinguish between the Foucault's-Pendulum-style Conspiracies and simple two-guys-working-together conspracies. The former generally cannot exist in its described form, since it demands far too (...) (22 years ago, 25-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...(what if?)
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(...) not (...) [snip] (...) In our nation (and every nation?) those with the power of wealth have a large amount of power over the laws of the land. They wield this power to assure that they keep their wealth. What degree of conspiracy is going on? (...) (22 years ago, 25-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...(what if?)
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(...) In what way are you asking? Do I think that a number of corporations are working independently, but simultaneously, to further their own wealth? Certainly, and the factions of each company are likely "conspiring" to achieve that end. Are (...) (22 years ago, 25-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...(what if?)
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(...) The Templars, indeed. It was the Hospitalars, but the money was provided by the Gnomes of Zurich. Fnord. (...) To actually address Chris' question back up at the top: as few as two. But conspiracy is usually defined as having some illegal (...) (22 years ago, 25-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...(what if?)
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(...) I'm not convinced that the distinction between the two is as clear as our language makes it seem. And anyway, my personal (patently predjudiced) experience suggests that those drawn into law enforcement tend to occupy both niches. (...) I (...) (22 years ago, 25-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...(what if?)
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(...) Like any self-respecting and haughty high-born conspirator, I much prefer the term "great unwashed" to "the sheep." So let's go with that please. (...) Actually, I think existence of such is mandatory, but you say unlikely, how fascinating. (22 years ago, 25-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...
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(...) Ummm, how do you know that? Have you asked everyone? Regardless, I also live in a middle class area with low crime, and would postulate the ownership of guns is also fairly low (seeing it's pretty hard to convince our PM of the need to own (...) (22 years ago, 25-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...
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(...) Maybe I am sticking my nose where it does not belong, but I find it unlikely that countries with insurmountable debt are the only countries that would be inclined to invade other countries. As I understand it, prior to WW2, most nations were (...) (22 years ago, 25-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...(what if?)
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(...) Can we go with hoi polloi? (...) That *is* fascinating--on what is that belief based? And where the heck have you been? I haven't seen you on OT.Debate in like a year?! Dave! (22 years ago, 25-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: ???
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(...) Actually, given the basis of the USA as constituted--its core principles--I'd argue that enslavement would, in fact, constitute the collapse of our society. (But I did read you in the "enslavement" sense, actually.) But it would require some (...) (22 years ago, 25-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...(what if?)
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(...) Baaa!! (...) I like what CJ Creig said in WW once, and can't remember exact wording but here's paraphrased... "I take comfort in the fact that once 2 or more people know something, it's impossible to keep it a secret for an extended period of (...) (22 years ago, 25-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...(what if?)
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(...) Dave! Is this the semantic game AGAIN?! Man, you love to talk about words... Maybe we just need another word for what happens -- maybe the word "conspiracy" is insufficient to describe observed phenomena. I keep thinking about chaos theory, (...) (22 years ago, 25-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...(what if?)
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(...) Hmm... Alanis Morisette => Some Retail Saint Maybe she's part of the plot to rework the commerce system with all that crazy monopoly money. Of course, Alanis Morisette also => Smartie Toenails. Hmm... And, now that I think of it, "Dave Thomas (...) (22 years ago, 25-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: ???
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(...) I think I want some clarification here-- society forces its members to abide by its rules, written, spoken, inferred, whatever. It's the nature of a society. And as the society grows, it becomes harder to avoid. But isn't part of that reason (...) (22 years ago, 25-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...(what if?)
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(...) Sorry, occupational hazard (English major)... The killer is that, the word does have an unfortunate overlap into two related but distinct applications, so it's tough to keep them separate. (...) I'll buy that. (...) I thought they bumped the (...) (22 years ago, 25-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...
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(...) OTOH, that person can think of you as a dangerous threat to his/her lifestyle. PLUS there is the chance you or that person are the villain, but cannot realize it due to strong conviction in your/his/her own ideals (i.e., "I'm right because I (...) (22 years ago, 25-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...(what if?)
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(...) I think that should be ammended to government can't be any smarter than the dumbest person (or sheep if you prefer) you let participate (vote) in it, but that doesn't sound very supportive of democracy, does it? However, it does explain a lot. (...) (22 years ago, 25-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...
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(...) I'm quite glad you dropped in. A debate isn't a debate unless different viewpoints are expressed, right? :-) (...) Agreed, for the generality of cases. (...) Perhaps you are neglecting the importance of the markets open for each country: (...) (22 years ago, 25-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | The Sheep (was: An armed society...(what if?))
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(...) exploit (...) I'm not sure if this was tongue in cheek or not, but just in case... In this segment of my note, the sheep were not the conspiracy nuts, they were the masses of people who, not knowing how to take advantage of the system (and (...) (22 years ago, 26-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...
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(...) And they'd be right. (...) No. If we accept that the notion of a villain is self-defined, then we are both our nemises villains. It's not like in comic books where some people are bad and some are good. Most people think they are good (even if (...) (22 years ago, 26-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: The Sheep (was: An armed society...(what if?))
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(...) Yeah, it was intended as more tongue in cheek than it came across--I was in part alluding to my recent calls for other additions to the Godwin list. "Petty and annoying" was a poor word choice... Dave! (22 years ago, 26-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...(what if?)
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(...) Maybe not. If you want to see the best the world of conspiracy theory has to offer, a good start is: (URL) Everything from alien intervention to New World Order Quadrant Sign Code! Fun for all! (The rest of the site is a hoot, too.) (22 years ago, 27-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | Re: An armed society...
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(...) :-) That can be interpreted in different ways... I'll go with the funny one. (...) They have to do with the law. The law is a sort of a commitment, it intends to define good and bad so that we can act accordingly. It sometimes fails, but heck, (...) (22 years ago, 27-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...
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First, I don't intend to troll, but it has been a long time since I participated here, and so I am finding it hard to recognize the limits of acceptable behaviour here. (...) It took me 27 years to realise that during the cold war the Russkies (...) (22 years ago, 28-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...
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(...) This was fine. Don't profane and don't attack people and I think everything else just falls into place. (...) I hold various opinions that I "know" are right and they are in opposition to my society (or at least the vast majority of it). (...) (...) (22 years ago, 28-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...
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(...) Those who think they can draw faster? ROSCO (22 years ago, 28-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...
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(...) I guess I was being too simplistic. How about when everyone carried onboard defense-ware that would automagically compute threats and attacks and either alert you to them or respond with massive lethal destructive force? And what if that were (...) (22 years ago, 28-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...
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(...) If you mean no "bombs" were dropped, I agree. On every other level is was a disaster. Its legacy lives on throughout the developing world today. Calling it a "cold" war is a complete misnomer. Perhaps of OBL had a few nukes, 911 would never (...) (22 years ago, 28-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...
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(...) Why would it be preferable, in this hypothetical example, to be ruled by machines than governed by humans? Dave! (Only half kidding... After all, we cannot allow a mine shaft gap.) (22 years ago, 28-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) So is "developing world." In fact, most people's conditions are becoming worse instead of better--and following a Western prescription for proper development is the crux of the problem. But I would argue that there is only a correlative (and (...) (22 years ago, 28-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...
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(...) I agree. (...) A simple question then: Did the cold war encourage poverty and war in (say) Africa? (...) Cold war : A state of rivalry and tension between two factions, groups, or individuals that stops short of open, violent confrontation. (...) (22 years ago, 28-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed gathering...?!?
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(...) Wargamers do not exist in the current version of the game, so I can pencil in whatever I want. :-) (...) At the time I originally read this, no. We get back from the Dominican Republic (arrrr, I gotta be finding the maritime museums thar) the (...) (22 years ago, 28-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) What do you mean exactly with "encourage"? IMO, the conditions for the present overabundance of conflicts in Africa has more to do with the Berlin Conference than it has to do with the Cold War. This period only enhanced pre-existing rivalries (...) (22 years ago, 28-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) And I'm not sure that the Cold War encouraged poverty and war in most of Africa, though it may have informed or triggered specific points of instability (a la Nasser). But I don't think the presence of that particular arrangement of world (...) (22 years ago, 29-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) So was I 8?) (...) That'd be kewl. (...) end (...) However, western media was always pointing out how far we were ahead of the russians, and I've no doubt they were saying exactly the opposite. Who has greater abilities (or fire-power) doesn't (...) (22 years ago, 29-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...
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(...) So the support we gave to tin-pot dictators around the world just because they were willing to fight local communists had no real outcome? (...) We shall have to disagree. "Cold" infers not battle took place - hundreds of thousands (millions) (...) (22 years ago, 29-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...
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(...) I think the "West" would have continued to exploit Africa even if the CW had not happened. However, I think the CW did have a significant effect there... and continues to do so. Where did our superfluous weapons go when the CW ended? (...) (...) (22 years ago, 29-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...
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(...) It did have a real outcome. My point is that such an outcome would probably have happened anyway. The majority of the CW "hotspots", where the two ideologies reached the point of conflict, had pre-existing tensions; they would have resulted in (...) (22 years ago, 29-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...
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(...) Or worse, if either side can win and lose at the same time (destroying and being destroyed). (...) Good point. Just imagine the present day US president were in office in 1962, and his Soviet counterpart were Yeltsin. Brrr... :-/ (...) In a (...) (22 years ago, 29-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...
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(...) Former Yougoslavia. Chechnya. The streets of "Anytown, USA". The Middle East. Taiwan. The Russian mob (no kidding, a month ago a whole bunch of russian military arms was found in a house in the Algarve, owned by russian mobsters. Scary!). And (...) (22 years ago, 29-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An armed society...
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(...) Hi Mike: This is just a follow up to our discussion so it doesn't seem like I was dogging you arbitrarily. I haven't yet found any "original" source for this quote (by which I mean the actual document or speech in which Brady made the comment) (...) (22 years ago, 31-Jan-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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