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Ooh, Selçuk - now you're talking things I can relate to. What you're describing here reminds me a lot of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict that Scott and Dan were condemning earlier. I stayed out of the discussion because I know where those things (...) (24 years ago, 27-Apr-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Turkey and Israel are "free to take care of it". However, both have a history of ignoring human rights and murdering civilians in the process. (...) Hmm. And what about the rocket attacks I see your army perpatrate alsmost daily on small (...) (24 years ago, 27-Apr-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) That's the way of blood feuds. Or gang-warfare. Or <your phrase of choice here>! Still, a less polemical tone might be more appropriate for someone in Great Britian. Britain is hardly a country without fault, historically speaking. If the sun (...) (24 years ago, 27-Apr-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) That was in the bad old days... most other countries were doing pretty much the same - or wanted to. But sure, I'm still not proud of it. Anyhow, we have rebranded ourselves as the "UK" :-) (...) I view some laws as protection for the poor or (...) (24 years ago, 27-Apr-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Good thing for most of Europe enough people thought it was moral to fight a war on foreight soil (though I guess in some cases, outside participation was invited). I also don't think we would have the relative peace we have in Europe had we (...) (24 years ago, 27-Apr-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Richard Marchetti writes: <snip rebuffing-of-Scott-part> (...) I agree. That is definitely the key here. (...) I *completely* agree. I think I came off really different in my last post; don't get me wrong here. I am all (...) (24 years ago, 28-Apr-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) <snip> Man I hate it when you're right about something! A less polemical tone on the part of US and UK (and Israeli and USSR and etc etc. heck, on the part of all of us) speakers would indeed be a good idea. ++Lar (24 years ago, 28-Apr-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Well, see? Here is my point: acting defensively is totally ethical from my viewpoint. And that takes me fighting right up to the border -- my line in the sand. Once my would-be conquerors are on the other side of that line I just don't care (...) (24 years ago, 28-Apr-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I thought for a while that they (the UK) DID declare two independent states... Israel and Jordan. When the UK partitioned Palestine, that was the idea. Jordan was to be one part, and Israel the other. Why didn't that work out? Or, why do the (...) (24 years ago, 29-Apr-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Richard did not rebuff me. He only gave the fact I quoted some context. Or are you saying that this is not true: "Turkey and Israel are "free to take care of it". However, both have a history of ignoring human rights and murdering civilians in (...) (24 years ago, 29-Apr-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) He can speak for himself of course, but calling your tone polemic strikes me as a rebuke... and a well deserved one. You've been called on this point before, you are quick to criticise some sides (who deserve criticism, in this case Israel) (...) (24 years ago, 30-Apr-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) You are mixing tone and content. In any event, I was happy to have my tone called "polemic": (URL) (...) That is because I am talking about now. You are talking about the past. The UK's colonial past does not make it ok for Israelto torture (...) (24 years ago, 30-Apr-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Snippage, as usual. (...) that I would relish being called a braggart... L0L ) I like the last definition (of a related word) in your cite (thanks for that, by the way, always nice to have a different source than good old dictionary.com) "Her (...) (24 years ago, 30-Apr-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I am tempted to say the same about you, but I won't. (...) Hmm. Rather a simplistic argument. (...) You are free to criticise what ever you wish. I am not going to put you in jail for your political views. (...) Nope, that shows my general (...) (24 years ago, 30-Apr-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Yes, two of them. I made them already. But for your benefit, since you missed it: 1. You seem to be saying that Israel and the PLO are equally bad. This is incorrect. The PLO is far worse. To say that they are equal shows your bias. 2. The UK (...) (24 years ago, 30-Apr-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Okay, let's assume this is true. It probably is. My question is: so what? Who comes to the table with clean hands? When it comes time to talk of peace there is usually blood on all sides. No side is innocent. No side is able to speak from a (...) (24 years ago, 30-Apr-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) In your opinion. Black is black. I am not going to get into a "who is the baddest" debate... it would be rather pointless. (...) You have no idea what I am "willing to acknowledge". As I said before, you are talking about the past. Considering (...) (24 years ago, 30-Apr-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) My point was that perhaps they “should take care of it” without torture etc. (...) As I understand it, to join, Turkey would have to bring its legislation in line with that of the EU. (...) Appearances can be deceptive ;-) (...) I agree. But (...) (24 years ago, 30-Apr-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Where the fault is split 60-40 I think you're right. But what if the fault is almost all on one side? (it's not 60-40 in this case but it's not 99-1 either, so this is a hypothetical, I want to know what you think) What then? I come from the (...) (24 years ago, 30-Apr-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Very noble Larry. Perhaps you could tell us how this can be done? And what about state sponsored/enacted terrorism? Scott A (24 years ago, 1-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Scott: I would turn the question around and ask how you would propose to achieve peace with the state sponsors of terrorism, when those same states have demonstrated irrefutably that they accept the destruction of innocent life as a valid (...) (24 years ago, 1-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Heh. It may be sobering to point out that the "brand" of UK was born in 1800, following the forced Act of Union with Ireland. That's when the name becomes valid, and it starts a new era of incredible colonial bloodshed. But I'm not sure all of (...) (24 years ago, 1-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Then what are you willing to acknowledge, beyond what we've seen here? There's no reason in this long .debate to think that Larry's wrong on that score. (...) The past should be absolutely crucial in considering "the real world." The problem (...) (24 years ago, 1-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Great! So now that your country has the benefits of conquest -- wealth and power -- it is possible for it to show the "kinder and gentler" face of colonialism -- the hypocrisy of the congenial tyrant. I'd just like you to know that other (...) (24 years ago, 1-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Well, this is a very hard question to answer in the hypothetical without more specifics, so I leave it to you to pose a more detailed hypothetical should you choose to do so. Given the real world instance of the nations of Israel and (...) (24 years ago, 2-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Education. (...) It worked for a while in Spain. It is working in NI. It worked in south africa. Scott A (...) (24 years ago, 2-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Indeed. But is was not until more recently untail it came into common usage. Most of the the world still refers to the UK as Britain, or more annoyingly England. (...) I do not doubt what you are saying. However, I have to say that the same (...) (24 years ago, 2-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) The point I think I am failing to acknowledge is that Britain’s past is any justification for Israel to torture and murder today. Although, I am sure it would make a very convenient defence / smokescreen. (...) Yes, but considering the past is (...) (24 years ago, 2-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) This is a very good point. I took the time on Sunday to watch a programme about a so called "hero of libertarian America" - Rany Weaver. From a UK perspective this guy appeared to nothing better that a moron with a gun. However, I could not (...) (24 years ago, 2-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I assume you live in the USA. Does your economy, some would argue, not owe a lot to slavery, exploitation of native Americans, pillaging of the developing world by multi-nationals and destruction of the global environment? I could well say to (...) (24 years ago, 2-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) How about when one side is a nation that says it wants to exterminate a certain religion's adherents and the other side is an almost weaponless group of members of that religion in the inner city of an occupied capital of a country that nation (...) (24 years ago, 2-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Nonsense. Terrorism can are be perpitrated against a state. Groups such as the IRA worked that killing "bystanders" is bad PR. So they attack the state : Police, Army, & the Post Office(!). Recently the IRA have taken to apologising when (...) (24 years ago, 2-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) And this is the point the Palestinians need to understand. So long as they threaten Israel, Israel can do nothing less than take steps to assure the safety of its people. Unfortunately, sometimes the only way to make sure you are safe from (...) (24 years ago, 2-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) ... by building homes on the land which does not belong to them for immigrants from eastern Europe? The people who were causing trouble in London yesterday were the children of the British middle class. Their idea of suffering is haveing to (...) (24 years ago, 2-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Please elucidate; such education as would seem to be necessary requires a fundamental restructuring of one side's world view, and can be perceived as colonial indoctrination by the restructured party. (...) Interesting, but I'm not convinced (...) (24 years ago, 2-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) And that remark doesn't show your bias? Please be so kind as to explain to all of us why the PLO is "far worse"... Dan (24 years ago, 2-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Please define "terrorist". Dan (24 years ago, 2-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) All of this depends on our definition of "terrorist". The best example I can give us is George Washington. We see him as an American hero, a general who led soldiers against an oppressive British monarchy. Now, the British saw him as a (...) (24 years ago, 2-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I thought this was supposed to be hypothetical, not rhetorical... =oP Plus I plead the 5th, or maybe the 9th -- whatever gets me out of the trouble of having to answer this one... (...) Did he really write this? Was this the motivation behind (...) (24 years ago, 2-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Those have long been a problem. I can agree with respect to "UK" not being the common usage; however, the official usage dates from that period, and in the records it's standard from 1800 even when the records are informal (although the (...) (24 years ago, 2-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Good question. I gave my definition in this post: (URL) about the second or third para down. To your point about soldier==terrorist and vice versa, I agree that the perception sometimes runs that way. But that's at least in part an effect of a (...) (24 years ago, 2-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) The intifadah. ++Lar (24 years ago, 2-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Lar, I read your post about what a terrorist is: "I would tend to say it's a person or group using violence against bystanders as a way to make a political point or get a political outcome." By your definition, here's a list of "terrorists" for you: (...) (24 years ago, 3-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) And....? I believe intifadah means "uprising" so what are the Palistinians rising up against? Still wondering how the PLO is "far worse" than the Israeli government? Here's some food for thought: (URL) (24 years ago, 3-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Is that the thing where Israel have shot dead a bunch of kids, bombed homes and carried out assasinations? How does that show the PLO is "far worse"? Scott A (...) (24 years ago, 3-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Intifadeh (1979) actually refers to the open uprising against Israel by the population, not terrorist actions per se. The people throwing stones and bottles at tanks and soldiers are the symbol of the intifadeh, not snipers or car bombs or the (...) (24 years ago, 3-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) And we're still waiting to hear his explanation for that statement. While were waiting: (URL) (24 years ago, 3-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) And we're still waiting to hear his explanation for that statement. While we're waiting: (URL) (24 years ago, 3-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Don't hold your breath. I don't respond to every distortion Scott slings, or even very many of them, actually. (...) by my characterisation of the PLO as far worse. ++Lar (24 years ago, 4-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Well, that's just dandy though it doesn't stand to reason why you'd take the side of the oppressor? If that's your attitude, I can only say that I strongly feel you are choosing to fill your head with the garbage the mainstream media would (...) (24 years ago, 4-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) No distortion Larry. Just facts. Scott A (...) (24 years ago, 4-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I suppoose that reflects your biased standpoint. If found it rather depressing. I am sure sites are out there which can show the "other side" which would be just as bad. (...) Don't be too hard on Larry on this - he can't help being (...) (24 years ago, 4-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I suppoose that reflects your biased standpoint. I found it rather depressing. I am sure sites are out there which can show the "other side" which would be just as bad. (...) Don't be too hard on Larry on this - he can't help being (...) (24 years ago, 4-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) As I see, you can be quite reasonable when it is for your advantage, right?..:-) Selçuk (24 years ago, 4-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I am always reasonable. Scott A (...) (24 years ago, 4-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Knowing yourself is nice, but better to leave this to other readers..:-) Selçuk (24 years ago, 4-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Ok, then, there may be some flaw in the definition as that is an unexpected result. Let's dig in a bit. What makes ALL of these guys terrorists? (some might be, I suppose). What is your definition of terrorism? What if we c/as a way/as the (...) (24 years ago, 4-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Sorry, I didn't follow that last bit: "c/as a way/as the primary way/ ??" I am not familiar with all of the internet shorthand yet. To answer your question about my definition of terrorism, I can only say that the popular use of the term (...) (24 years ago, 4-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Sorry, that just means this: What if, in the definition wording, we changed "as a way" to "as a primary way"... the shorthand comes in because c/xx/yy/ is an editor command in several old skool line editors to effect a change of xx to yy. When (...) (24 years ago, 4-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Your internal notion is your paradigm of world issues, including what you consider to be a terrorist. You have formed this paradigm through whatever media you've accepted as "the truth"...whether it is ABC, CNN, or newspapers, magazines or (...) (24 years ago, 4-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Daniel Jassim writes: <snip> I appreciate your concern for my morals and my tax dollars. However... I want to stay narrow and not specific to this issue. What is a terrorist? Divorce it from the context. I gave a (...) (24 years ago, 4-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Simple question: Why do you take the side of the oppressor? Divorce that from the context too. Dan (24 years ago, 5-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Oops, sorry if I left you hanging on that question, I thought it was rhetorical. I believe the dictionary would use the literal meaning as "one who instills terror in others." Perhaps a bit too general for an America that prefer's having (...) (24 years ago, 5-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Three part answer: - I'm not taking sides when I say one side is worse than the other... we are talking shades of black, after all, not black vs. white. - Oppressor is such a loaded word, really. You haven't demonstrated that either side in (...) (24 years ago, 5-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Then, my friend, you are chosing the PLO to be the "far worse" shade when, factually and morally, it is totally opposite. Stop lumping things together and believing the Zionist propaganda about the Intifadah (the uprising of Palistinian (...) (24 years ago, 5-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Indeed. You were asked for a definition after your sentenced terrorists to an arbitrary fate. But then it turned out you were a little muddled about what a terrorist is. Scott A (...) (24 years ago, 6-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Wrong: (URL)- That said, I don't ever *intend* to take the side of an oppressor. You (...) Others are. As I understand it, a report is about to be published which will lay much of the blame on Israel: Report condemns Israeli expansion (URL) (...) (24 years ago, 6-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) my satisfaction". However under yours: "to govern (people) in an unfair and cruel way and prevent them from having opportunities and freedom" I don't see that being the case with the Israeli governance. (...) Don't intend to try to convince (...) (24 years ago, 6-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Oh, forgot to toss this stick into the hornets nest... turns out that the *PLO*, under *your* definition is an oppressor. The PLO oppresses the very people that it is governing under the limited mandate given it by the Israelis... since its (...) (24 years ago, 6-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) One of the purposes of a dictionary is to ensure that words have the same meaning for all of us. Assuming our own meanings on words dilutes the power of language... in my opinion. (...) Really? (...) I am beginning to you lack any thinking on (...) (24 years ago, 6-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Spoken like a true Zionist, Larry. You are allowing yourself to be a puppet for a political group that has turned the same Nazi tactics, that previously oppressed the Jews, on the Palistinian population to get them to bow down. The same (...) (24 years ago, 6-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) As I said before Larry, both sides are equally bad. (...) The "nightmare" they have voted for is not high taxes, it is the use of helicopter gunships of residential areas. Scott A (...) (24 years ago, 6-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Spoken like a true Zionist again! Learn the truth and stand up for what's right. Dan (24 years ago, 6-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Scott Arthur writes: Snip. (...) Both sides are bad. but... (...) the PLO are far worse. That's it. End of point. Saying this does not make me a Zionist. Sorry, Dan, but it just doesn't. Saying that Hitler was worse than (...) (24 years ago, 6-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Spoken like a ture Zionist once more. Don't be a puppet, Larry. (...) Didn't say you were a Zionist, but you are speaking for them. The Israelis stand against basic human rights, the same rights that Americans fought for against the British (...) (24 years ago, 6-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Well, Dan did bring up Nazi before you brought up Hitler... Frank (24 years ago, 6-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) That's a reach. (...) *Which* invader? Let's see... how about: The phoenicians, the egyptians, the greeks, the romans, the crusaders, the turks, the french, the british. There have been so many, no one has clear title. The zionists just (...) (24 years ago, 6-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) But you obviously favor the Israelis, right? Okay, let's consider the Zionist story regarding Israel as the "home of the Jews" and their claim to distant Semetic bloodlines (fraudulent, by the way). Considering Judaism is a Semetic religion (...) (24 years ago, 7-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Hi Dan, I've been following this part of the debate and specifically staying out of it, because I can tell when a cool-headed discussion turns into a hot flame war. Although this isn't a full-fledged flame war, it is certainly not a great debate, (...) (24 years ago, 7-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Shiri's right. This isn't much of a debate (most that involve Scott A. in some significant way tend not to be) and neither of us are moving much. But I just can't let a couple of points slide. (...) For about the 9th time, no. It is not favoritism (...) (24 years ago, 7-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) But it is a point you are not able to justify... or so it appears. (...) The is no loosing or winning here Larry. Scott A (...) (24 years ago, 7-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Geez, this is really becoming the thread that would not die! And I can see that some are getting overheated about some of the points being made. MY point would be to suggest that no one will get much closer to peace until everyone concerned is (...) (24 years ago, 7-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Yes, but peace on what terms? "Israel sticks to settlement policy" (URL) your country voted for Sharon they did not vote for diplomacy. Scott A (...) (24 years ago, 7-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Hi Shiri, Alsalaam aleikum! Shalom! I genuinely appreciate the olive branch. :) I try not to generalize, but I'm guilty of trying a few shortcuts in my last post. It seems I unwittingly made a point about generalizations because most, dare I say (...) (24 years ago, 7-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) The debate has not moved on Larry as you have failed to justify your "far worse" comment. Instead you squirm, muddy the water and make cheap shots like the one above. (...) If the PLO is "far worse" than the Israelis, are the Israelis not far (...) (24 years ago, 7-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Then for the 10th time, YES IT IS when the opinion is biased, gained from pro-Zionist media. What part of that do you not understand? Stop pretending that you are somehow open minded or unbiased about the Middle East. Name ONE Arabic newspaper (...) (24 years ago, 7-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Richard, I am very sorry about this debate dragging on but I cannot, with clear conscience, allow certain blatantly Zionist remarks to slide. The moral issue I've maintained is "who invaded who" and "who is oppressing who" and I'll add "who is (...) (24 years ago, 7-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Actually I really can't understand why there is a term like terrorist? We already have enough terms that define the actions of "terrorist" like murder, kidnapping, burglary, plunder, and so on. What is the difference if you killed someone for (...) (24 years ago, 7-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Oh, now thats a solution. By that generalization, I belive almost NO ONE in the world has any right to live where they live. I doubt ANY population in the world can be documented to be living on land they didn't take from someone else (and in (...) (24 years ago, 7-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I know many people who shouldn't be trusted with weapons, and most of them aren't police. However, you've hit on an important point, regarding both the necessity of a professional military and the difficulty of reducing it. No one with a stake (...) (24 years ago, 7-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) The people who least want to see a reduction in the military are those who make the weapons. Take a look how much the companies who will work on Son of Star Wars gave Dubya for his election. Scott A (24 years ago, 7-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Ugh! Don't even start me on that ridiculous cash cow! I foresee, shortly after the implementation of this fine umbrella, someone boating up the Potomac with a suitcase bomb or a big tank full of anthrax. I think a real distinction can be (...) (24 years ago, 7-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Why make my statement sound so far fetched? Is it any more or less valid than the British finally pulling out of India? With regard to Israel, I wouldn't call my statement a generalization. The specific fact remains that the European Jews ran (...) (24 years ago, 7-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) See today's WSJ. All the pieces of Brilliant Pebbles have been tested and shown to work (although not as part of an integrated system). Most of them in Clementine, one of the most cost effective civilian space missions ever! According to the (...) (24 years ago, 7-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) But is the intent of the Umbrella to stop attacks by other nations against other nations? That's how Dubya is trying to sell it, but it doesn't sound like any other nation is buying the rhetoric. (...) That's true--my example wasn't especially (...) (24 years ago, 7-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Um, wrong. Yet another reason to question anything coming across the pages of the WSJ. Not that I've read it since they'd declared breatfeeding dangerous to infants... I've been seeing the antiballistic missile development more-or-less behind (...) (24 years ago, 7-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Right. Hence my question, is it our duty to be the world's policeman (in the area of incoming missiles) just because we CAN? I tend to say no. I say build the thing and then announce that there is a 1B USD charge per missile for stopping (...) (24 years ago, 7-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Because after the British "left" India, there were still a lot of Britons who elected to stay, and India still existed. Who would leave if "the greedy Zionists" packed up and "went home" to the places where they--pardon me, their grandparents (...) (24 years ago, 7-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Jeremy... Clementine was a SINGLE spacecraft. No backup. Sure, there was QA performed on components on the ground to put only ones believed to work into it, but all the components worked (for that mission, which of course was to do mapping, (...) (24 years ago, 7-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Oops, I thought we were talking about the missile shield program, not one portion of it succeeding with 99% already-proven technology. Clementine was less about proving technology, and more about PR. Badly-needed PR, I might add, for an (...) (24 years ago, 7-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) First, no apologies are necessary. You obviously have some things you wish to express. (...) To be honest, I don't support much of anything outside of U.S. borders. I want to mind my own business in relation to my neighbors, and I want U.S. (...) (24 years ago, 7-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Well said! You, me and Jefferson: "Honest friendship with all who wish it, entangling alliances with none" (...) Although they got a nice piece of change by owning Foxwoods! THAT was shrewd working within the system. :-) (...) Maybe not but (...) (24 years ago, 7-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) That's ridiculous. That's like saying "you think the KKK is far worse than the Black Panthers, so you must support the Black Panthers", which is obviously NOT true (in my case, anyways). -- | Tom Stangl, iPlanet Web Server Technical Support (...) (24 years ago, 7-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Um, you're missing the point. If everyone lays down their claim, that INCLUDES your Arabs. <cluephone, ring, ring> -- | Tom Stangl, iPlanet Web Server Technical Support Netscape Communications Corp | iPlanet Support - (URL) A division of AOL (...) (24 years ago, 7-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) This is an oft-quoted snippet, and I have no doubt that it was fine foreign policy for an infant nation two centuries ago, but in an age when we can cross the globe in hours, I think its relevance is more metaphorical than actual. And while (...) (24 years ago, 7-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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In replying both to Richard and Dan - I agree. We all want peace, and naturally everyone's peace will be on different terms. We cannot change the past, but we can try and deal with what's here. I agree that Israel as it was formed was not a good (...) (24 years ago, 7-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Thank you for your input, Lindsay, and for presenting the "facts on the ground" point of view about the Israeli occupation. The Zionists would like nothing better than to hold up their children born in Israel as a further claim to the land they took (...) (24 years ago, 7-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Just for my own clarity, Dan, what would you say to the Jews born in Israel in the last fifty years? While their births don't "entitle" the Jews as a people to usurp land from anyone, I don't understand why the native-born Israelis wouldn't (...) (24 years ago, 7-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Couldn't have said it better myself! From what I've seen in my life so far, the sort of "peace" that Israel wants. Dan (24 years ago, 7-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Alsalaam aleikum! Shalom! (...) Actually, the Zionists WERE doing it out of greed and hoodwinked the mass of Holocaust victims worrying about a homeland. No real Jew would ever have supported invading someone's land, murdering, crippling and running (...) (24 years ago, 7-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Markhaban, Ahalan (wasahalan), hi, what's up :-) (My knowledge of Arabic consists of, umm, "Markhaban ya talamiz, Ana Mualima Ismi Salma", and, well, I forget the rest... since I left .il without taking high-school Arabic. If I had not had (...) (24 years ago, 7-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) ::sigh:: I knew I should have left in my qualifier about the Nazis... In my last post I WAS going to include that the nations of the world should have spotted the threat the Nazis represented much earlier on and not have jumped into bed with (...) (24 years ago, 7-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Well, yes and no. The world does not admit of us huddling behind our borders and assuming that distance keeps us safe, but nevertheless there is merit in not getting entangled in alliances quite as much as we seem to have gotten lately. No (...) (24 years ago, 7-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) That's interesting! During last year's debates about Libertopia et al, I tried to envision the type of world that could support a free nation like Libertopia (remember when I oh-so-cleverly coined it Liberama? Ah, such wit!) I still don't know (...) (24 years ago, 8-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Alsalaam aleikum! Shalom! Regarding the link I gave you, perhaps you'll have to wait a little while and try back again. It's something worth reading. More bloodshed today, more Palestinians dead, more excuses from Israel. I'm glad that you at least (...) (24 years ago, 8-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Put it this way, when was the last time you were personally threatened by the Lichtenstein Army? Now if Lichtenstein turns into a pocket dicatorship that kind of stinks for the Lichtensteiners but it won't last. Bill Gates could afford to do (...) (24 years ago, 8-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) It's not within the context of Larry's "argument". That's like saying "you think the KKK is far worse than the (...) I have no idea who the Black Panthers are. Scott A (...) (24 years ago, 8-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Indeed. (...) It does not have one. They rely on the Swiss for defence. (...) Big business would only do such a thing if there was $$ involved fom them. Individuals would only do such as thing if there was kudos involved. I would rather these (...) (24 years ago, 8-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) You are missing the point! It has nothing to do with defence. It has two objectives: 1. Start a "new" arms race and bankrupt China. 2. Move large amounts of money from US taxpayers to US shareholders. Everything else is salesman’s banter. (...) (24 years ago, 8-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I am perfectly willing to give you the last word, Dan -- but tell me this: what do you propose should happen if you got everything you wanted? I don't want a fantasy, answer with what you would do tomorrow if "fixing" the situation were up to (...) (24 years ago, 8-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Na, Dave! has it right, all it is going to do is save the attacking country ~ 10 billion dollars or so, on ICBM research as well as Special Weapons (Gas/Bugs/Nukes). It's a farce. An expensive farce, that I don't think will bankrupt China, (...) (24 years ago, 8-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Very good point. However, both arguments assume there is the real risk of an attack. (...) I doubt it will bankrupt China too, especially given the amount of $$ the west is pumping into it! Scott A (...) (24 years ago, 8-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Come on Larry, tell us. Tell us how your rights based personal philosophy came up with these tomes of wisdom. Scott A (24 years ago, 8-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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An addendum to my previous posts regarding the Israeli occupation: Although I have used the term "Palestinian" repeatedly to describe the Arabs of that area, I realize that there are certain inaccuracies with the term. The root word is (...) (24 years ago, 8-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Another addendum to my last post: (...) What I meant to say: There isn't a violent "Palestinian" action against Israeli civilians on record since the creation on Israel that matches the Massacre of Deir Yassin. My apologies, I am usually more (...) (24 years ago, 8-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Yet another addendum: (...) I mean "of" Israel not "on." Never type tired... Dan (24 years ago, 8-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Got me... I did not know that. Pick some other tiny country as the root of the example then... one that does have a tiny army. How about if we use the Grand Duchy of Fenwick, because that's obviously fictional. This is a fictional example, (...) (24 years ago, 8-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Ya, Taiwan can sleep well at night, Mainland China has no desire to "take back its rogue province" and all those platforms they're building in the Spratleys are just fishing shacks. Ya, Japan can sleep well at night, North Korea is the most (...) (24 years ago, 8-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I can't disagree at all with that last prescription. I've been reading very closely articles that point out that even within the territory Israel claims as sovereign, Palestinians and other non-Jewish residents will outnumber Jews within 20 (...) (24 years ago, 8-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I do. (...) For people "in general" I do. (...) Well, what were his motives? (...) That is the important question. Many things are clearly "wrong" : mass murder etc. But at the other edge of the scale it is harder to tell... but perhaps the (...) (24 years ago, 8-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I hadn't thought about the etymology, odd! Even odder, when considering that the inhabitants of Philistia were Mycenaean Greeks displaced by the Dorian Invasions of c. 800BC. :) I do wonder, then, how much of their genetics and culture ended (...) (24 years ago, 8-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) What is that got to do with the USA? (...) What is that got to do with the USA? (...) What is that got to do with the USA? (...) Perhaps to you. Scott A (...) (24 years ago, 8-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Kind of an obtuse way of saying "forgotten" or "ignored". :-) Bruce (for the younger, Michael Collins was the Astronaut from the Apollo 11 moon mission that didn't walk on the moon) (24 years ago, 8-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Actually, I was thinking Lindsay was trying to start up another Liam Neeson movie controversy. Dave! (24 years ago, 8-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Heh, actually, that's an interesting link I hadn't thought of. I wonder if we can work Darkman in here too? LFB (24 years ago, 8-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Nope. Wrong Michael Collins. See below, it's not obtuse at all. (...) Actually, that's a different Michael Collins. The one I'm thinking of was the one sent in 1922 by Eamon de Valera to negotiate the Good Friday Agreement that created the (...) (24 years ago, 8-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) So, you forgot about the Astronaut? You're just proving my point! ;-) Bruce (sheesh, I shoulda known it was a more esoteric answer...) (24 years ago, 8-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) And let's not forget Krull. Oh wait. On second thought, let's! Dave! (24 years ago, 8-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Ack! Purged from the memory banks. What else have I forgotten? LFB (24 years ago, 8-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Heh...:-) I think you don't know much about what could be the cost of a corrupt government to you, perhaps you never have to live with one, generations long. Selçuk (...) (24 years ago, 9-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I suppose these things are all realtive ;-) Scott A (...) (24 years ago, 9-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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