Subject:
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Re: A question of remembrance...
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Mon, 7 May 2001 22:19:59 GMT
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1190 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Daniel Jassim writes:
> Alsalaam aleikum! Shalom!
Markhaban, Ahalan (wasahalan), hi, what's up :-)
(My knowledge of Arabic consists of, umm, "Markhaban ya talamiz, Ana Mualima
Ismi Salma", and, well, I forget the rest... since I left .il without taking
high-school Arabic. If I had not had such horrible Arabic teachers (hey were
not Arabs, mind you! Just bad teachers) perhaps I would've taken it in a more
advanced level. Oh well... <sigh> I digress again.)
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Shiri Dori writes:
> > On the other hand, you had a couple of millions of survivors emerging from a
> > world war in which they had been opressed, and were worried that the same
> > thing
> > will happen again. They wanted a solution. YES, they played on world
> > sympathies, but NO, they weren't doing it out of greed or deception.
>
> Actually, the Zionists WERE doing it out of greed and hoodwinked the mass of
> Holocaust victims worrying about a homeland. No real Jew would ever have
> supported invading someone's land, murdering, crippling and running them
> out, bulldozing their homes and building shiny new resorts.
>
> http://www.jewsnotzionists.org
Umm, all I see in that link is a "we're under construction" sign.
As for your accusations of Zionists - perhaps that's true. I don't know, I
never met one of the type you are accusing, since I was not around when Israel
was formed. What I do know is that the "real" Jews you are referring to WERE
desperate for a safe place. Some went to America, some went to Palestine, some
already had family members there (like my grandmother whose father and brother
were here already). Others were just hoping for a better place - anywhere - and
yeah, the area seemed to lend itself. If you wanna call it hoodwinking - go
ahead. But you gotta make a distinction between a couple of things...:
The Zionists of "then" and the "Zionists", and the *Israelis* now.
As Lindsay mentions, and I completely agree with everything in his well-said
post, the people you are telling to go home are not the same ones who formed
the country out of greed, as you claim. The people there now are Israelis as
much as you are American. People who live there now are not staying because of
greed, mind you, but because this is were they were raised, because this is
their home NOW. I cannot make this point any clearer, so if you fail to see it,
I really don't know what else to say.
I'm quoting you from here ( http://news.lugnet.com/off-topic/debate/?n=10251 ):
> I believe in the brotherhood of Jews and Moslems, but the Zionists have
> ruined it. They've demonstrated their greed and lack of respect for human
> rights. How can anyone believe that the Israelis want peace when the
> occupation, bulldozing and construction continues?
Believe it, because not all Israelis support that. Depends on who you're
talking to. *Yes*, Sharon was elected, but you know what? He supports the
settlements just about as much as Barak does. Because the parties that are
interested in settlements (Zionists, I think, by your definition) are supported
by certain religious streams, and unfortunately, Israel (by definition, mind
you!!) has no seperation of religion and government. And the religious parties
in my country are so strong that neither of the leading parties can form a
coalition without them, and both of them are too stubborn to set aside their
inter-party differences and work together without the extreme religious
parties.
The politics of Israel are a lot more complicated than you think. I used to be
interested in them, now I'm disgusted by them. But do me a favor, don't
generalize (again)... *believe* me that some Israelis want peace. A lot of
today's youth especially - the generation that was most shook up from Rabin's
assassination, the generation that is hoping for "Yes to peace, no to
violence" (the slogan at the peace assembly where he was murdered). Believe me
Dan - I'm not making this up, people want peace, but they are not sure how to
get it. All they're getting is slapped back in the face, even when they're
trying to stop the violence. Because no matter how hard the left wing tries,
the right wing just keeps pissing the Palestinian extremists off, and more
violence drags more violence, and where does it end? *You* try not to get
frustrated in a situation like that. In fact, you *are* frustrated, just from
the other side. It's so hard to see what the other side is looking at. I'm
trying to see yours... please try to see mine.
> No, I don't think the general Jewish public was wrong but they were misled
> and misinformed by the Zionists and put in the middle of the crossfire.
Possibly. Actually, very likely. But don't think that the Jewish public was
blind about the creation of Israel. Most of them wanted it as much as anyone
else. Perhaps if they had other (good) options, this course would not have been
taken. Perhaps it would've led to a different bloodshed somewhere else. Who
knows. But all we can do is study the past, not change it - learn from it and
move on... onwards and upwards, hopefully!
> And
> the Zionists are still at it. Your life is in their hands, if I'm not
> mistaken. You have no choice but to serve in the military, though it is
> obvious you don't want to.
Well, you are sort-of mistaken. *My* life, as a female, would not be put on the
line. It's also not obvious that I do not want to serve. I do have a choice
about the military, although granted it is a very small window of opportunity,
but I do not want to take it. I could stay in the U.S. for a few more years and
thus not be required to serve; I could also get married, or claim for "profile
21" (IDF talk for mentally ill) as some people do. But I feel that would be
shirking what I *do* consider my duty. I would never agree to fight in the
Jewish settlements even if I were a boy and were offered to do so. But I would
(and probably *will*, unless I am medically unfit, which is not for me to
decide) still serve in the army. Perhaps you find that morally wrong, and
perhaps I should follow Thoreau and stop supporting a war I feel is wrong.
Perhaps. Don't think the thought never crossed my mind. In the past few years
I've been struggling with that dilemma, but eventually I decided that I will
not resist the draft. (But then again, when my pediatrician asked me if I
wanted her to write a letter putting a lot of emphasis or less emphasis on my
health problems, I did not tell her to put less...)
These are issues I've been struggling with, like I said. Not one-sided issues,
there are a lot of factors involved. Life is a complex thing, and every issue
I'm discussing here could be talked about for days without end. Too bad I still
have homework tonight... ;-) ... but you see, it's really not that simple.
> > But what was done was done, and we can't turn the wheel back. (I think that's
> > *one* thing we can't argue about! ;-) ... now Israel exists, and there are
> > people like me who grew up there and love the country... to death... (no pun
> > intended, right?)... unfortunately.
>
> I want to say this as sincerely as I can... Think about what you just said
> if you ever end up in the Israeli military and you're looking down the
> barrel of your machine gun at a Palistinian stone-thrower and you are
> ordered to fire.
Like I mentioned, I would never be put in such a position. But I hate to think
of that. Like I said, if I were a boy I would probably have tougher issues with
the draft, and possibly my decisions about it would be different. But I know
that I will be put in a non-combatant unit, no matter what I want or don't
want.
> > So now what do we do? How do we put the past behind us? Decades and centuries
> > of hate, almost two millenia of anti-Jew sentiments...
>
> I am sorry Shiri, but the whole "everyone hates the Jews" stuff is also a
> concoction of the Zionists. Don't buy into the hype. There was a
> brotherhood, the Zionists ruined it in favor of greed.
Ahh, you misquote, by snipping out the rest of my sentence. I was not trying
to single out hate against Jews. Plus Dan, ever since the original kingdoms of
Israel and Judea were (each in a different time) taken over and sent to exile,
they have experienced many different reactions. I *know*, just as well as you
do that the original Islam faith welcomed Judaism and Christianity, do not
think I'm ignoring that. However *Christians* did not welcome Jews at the
time, and in Christian countries they DID experience anti-semetic sentiments,
say what you will. (e.g. The Spanish exile of 1492, the inquisition?... I'm not
jsut talking the Holocaust). I'm not buying into any hypes, I'm incorportating
my knowledge of history. And yes, history is subjective - I've studied it from
both Israeli and American perspectives. And thought of it from many different
others. Trust me, what I say here is not just blind repetition of what I've
heard. These are things I have thought of, many times. I've thought of the
similarities between the Palestinians' actions and the
Israeli-formation-movements of 60-70 years ago. They want independence as much
as we did then. I realize that and that's why I support giving them land - but
YES, on *peaceful* terms. I don't want them to wage war on us once they have
that. I want "them" to stop the violence, and I want "us" to stop "ours". Do
you see what I'm saying? Looking for guilty parties is just not helpful (that's
why I sayed out of the debate thus far).
To end on a better note, I'd like to loosely translate a couple of verses from
a David Broza and Yonathan Gefen song, "It'll be Good", that was originally
written in 1977 (IIRC) and I just heard Broza perform it live this Saturday...:
Children grow wings / and fly to the army / and after two years / they return
without answers // people live in tension / looking for a reason to berathe /
and between hate and murder / they ask for the peace...
And it'll be good, it'll be good, yeah, sometimes I break down... so tonight,
oh, tonight... with you I'll stay.
I don't think I convey it well, but it's a song of hope, for peace, and
everyone singing it in the audience yesterday (the hall was packed with
Israelis and Americans) was sincerely hoping for it, I think. The sad thing is
that Broza is still singing it... he mentioned it before the song... but let's
hope that someday it *will* be good.
-Shiri
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Message has 1 Reply:
 | | Re: A question of remembrance...
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| Alsalaam aleikum! Shalom! Regarding the link I gave you, perhaps you'll have to wait a little while and try back again. It's something worth reading. More bloodshed today, more Palestinians dead, more excuses from Israel. I'm glad that you at least (...) (23 years ago, 8-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: A question of remembrance...
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| Alsalaam aleikum! Shalom! (...) Actually, the Zionists WERE doing it out of greed and hoodwinked the mass of Holocaust victims worrying about a homeland. No real Jew would ever have supported invading someone's land, murdering, crippling and running (...) (23 years ago, 7-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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