Subject:
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Re: A question of remembrance...
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Mon, 7 May 2001 09:15:14 GMT
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Viewed:
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1197 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> > But you obviously favor the Israelis, right?
>
> For about the 9th time, no. It is not favoritism to say one side is worse
> than another.
Then for the 10th time, YES IT IS when the opinion is biased, gained from
pro-Zionist media. What part of that do you not understand? Stop pretending
that you are somehow open minded or unbiased about the Middle East. Name ONE
Arabic newspaper you have read in your entire lifetime? They're online and
all you need is Adobe Acrobat. Until then, I know where you stand my friend,
stop kidding yourself.
> You didn't get, or chose to ignore, my Stalin/Hitler analogy.
> Saying either is "worse" does not mean you are a proponent of the other.
One analogy, Larry, and a poor one at that. How many facts, examples and
explanations have I given you?
> Further, as soon as you start initiating force you give up claim to
> legitimacy. Both sides have done so, both sides have therefore lost that
> claim in my book. (Just as McVeigh forever tarnished the claim freedom
> loving citizens have against the Butcher of Waco, Murderer Reno... what he
> did is inexcusable no matter how great the provocation.)
There's the magic word: FORCE! Just like concepts in physics, there are acts
of FORCE and RESISTANCE. There's a difference between killing for greed and
killing for survival. I don't kill and I don't hate but if I am starved I'll
eat the flesh of my oppressor.
> I'm *NOT* on either "side".
Saying and being are two entirely different things. You've formed an opinion
based on lies, I gave you the facts, you stuck by the lies. What more can I say?
> Clearly this hits home with you, it may well be one of your most important
> issues. It's not one of mine, though, so I yield primacy of passion.
> Normally you are much more analytical than this but I can see that analysis
> does sometimes fall by the wayside when it's your primary issue.
What?! Where have I faltered here? I've stuck with the facts and implored
you to be your own man and change your paradigm for the sake of justice.
Yes, human rights is a big issue in my life, how is it obscuring the
analysis? Is it because the facts I've presented go against your mainstream,
Zionist paradigm? Is it because I'm Dan Jassim, the guy who featured Jar Jar
getting beaten? What is it?! Darn it, Larry, pretend I'm Captain Kirk if you
wish but realize you've got the wrong idea about the PLO.
> > This IS close to
> > home because America pours billions of our tax dollars
>
> Now here is something I can agree with. I see no reason to fund Israel. Or
> anyone else for that matter, at this point in time. Let the other nations of
> the world make their own way. Our foreign aid, at this point in time, does
> much more harm than good to all who receive it. (right after WW II was a far
> different time, to forestall someone bringing up the Marshall Plan)
Sad how it came down to money to get you to agree on something...
> > to support the
> > oppressive Israeli government, guilty of countless human rights and
> > international law violations! This IS close to home because the blatantly
> > pro-Zionist media continually dehumanizes Arabs and portrays them as
> > "swarthy" villians and tricksters in movies, TV shows and video games. Is
> > this the image you want your children to grow up with? Will my son also be
> > beaten and called "camel jockey" like his dad?
>
> Come off it. I have never said any such thing. I can condemn the PLO (and
> Israel as well) without saying anything bad about the ordinary Palestinian
> (and Israeli) Joe in the street.
> I challenge you to find any instance where I have EVER advocated that sort
> of behaviour against ordinary citizens (not terrorists, mind you, but
> ordinary citizens).
You come off it, Larry! >:(
Who is the one who gave the Intifadah as an example of how "far worse" the
PLO was?! Either you didn't know what the heck you are talking about, or you
somehow consider the Intifadah, the uprising of ordinary citizens against
the Israeli occupation, as terrorists?! Terrorists that you "never
negotiate" with that need to be "smacked down" and "apprehended." So what,
round up all the Palistinians in the street for protesting the occupation
and shoot them?! Wait a minute, the Israelis are already doing that.
> The most I can hold ordinary citizens to blame for is
> not speaking out against their government.
Well, my friend, do you think kids chucking all those stones at Israeli
soldiers with machine guns, grenades, rockets, and tanks was just for the
exercise?! I don't know whether I should laugh or cry.
> And I don't do even that without
> feeling a quite bit hypocritical and remembering that my mother did not
> speak out against Nazism... instead she and her brother both volunteered for
> the army, to my eternal shame.
Then do justice for your family and not repeat their mistake.
> So I don't feel that ordinary citizens should be dehumanized or mistreated
> because of the actions of their governments.
Yep, it's okay that the PLO is "far worse" even though the Israelis have
been bombing the living crap out of Arabs for 50 years.
<snipped comments about exchange students>
That's fantastic, but doesn't change your Middle East bias. I challenge you
to host a Palistinian exchange student and try to explain this.
> DO NOT use that argument with me, it is beneath your dignity. Argue on merit
> or not at all.
Human rights, my friend. Doesn't basic human rights have any merit to you?
You have given merit to pro-Zionist propaganda, not the truth and certainly
not justice because you have decided that the PLO is "far worse" and gave
the Intifadah as an example of terrorism. And you've sidestepped and snipped
every fact I've given you about the occupation. Try as you may, you cannot
hide the truth?
> I'm rather disappointed in you for that one, Dan.
Be disappointed in yourself that you cannot see the forest from the trees...
That you are willingly allowing your perception of the world to be neatly
packaged and delivered in soundbites from the pro-Zionist media. They could
care less about you, why care for them? Why be their puppet?
Dan
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Message is in Reply To:
 | | Re: A question of remembrance...
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| Shiri's right. This isn't much of a debate (most that involve Scott A. in some significant way tend not to be) and neither of us are moving much. But I just can't let a couple of points slide. (...) For about the 9th time, no. It is not favoritism (...) (24 years ago, 7-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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