Subject:
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Re: A question of remembrance...
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Mon, 7 May 2001 07:20:03 GMT
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Viewed:
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1032 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Shiri Dori writes:
> Hi Dan,
>
> I've been following this part of the debate and specifically staying out of
> it, because I can tell when a cool-headed discussion turns into a hot flame
> war. Although this isn't a full-fledged flame war, it is certainly not a
> great debate, and once pointing fingers starts (on either side) I'd rather
> just stay out. But I want to post one thing, so I don't feel like I'm
> standing by as you totally disavow my country and my beliefs. I don't think
> I will post anything in this thread after this, sorry, I daresay I don't
> expect to completely change your mind, but I just want you to think of the
> other side for just one second. (And perhaps if I feel I can add anything
> useful, I'll post again.)
>
>
> <snip of pointing fingers at the British, Russians, Paletinians and Israelis>
>
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Daniel Jassim writes:
> > I am an Arab. I don't kill anyone, I don't assult anyone, I don't even own a
> > gun and I have no criminal record (not even a traffic offense). In fact, if
> > you research crime statistics in America, you'll find that Arabs are among
> > THE MOST law abiding citizens of America. Yet, since I was a boy, my Arab
> > ethnicity earned me so much grief in this country that I eventually changed
> > my name.
>
> I think that it's entirely shameful that you should have to, and I have no
> doubt that you're a great person. I think I'm correct in saying that you are
> like me in the sense that you hate hate. (Does that make sense?) I wish our
> world had never came as far as that, and I think that something needs to be
> done about this. And it *is* being done, little by little, bit by bit, by
> individuals and by groups, by people who care and who refuse to buy into
> stereotypes such as those you describe. I feel that both you and I will
> educate our children (I don't know if you already have any) to love and not
> hate, to take people for *who* they are and not for *what* they are. And
> hopefully, in turn, your children and mine will pass that on. Let's hope
> that someday the *human race* will not have to worry about such issues, and
> that both hate and the wars that stem from it will be gone from this world.
> Until then, let's do our best to take individual steps towards that end.
> Whaddaya say?
>
>
> > So, when I hear a man as yourself sprouting invalid opinions (i.e.
> > PLO is "far worse"), I feel it is my moral obligation to tell you the truth
> > so there's at least one less Zionist puppet in the world.
>
> That's fair enough, every person is entitled to their own convictions, and
> you're free to believe that. However, convincing Larry is pretty impossible,
> and I doubt you'll get anything from it but high blood-pressure levels.
> <only half tongue-in-cheek>
>
> <snip>
>
> > Have it your way, my dear friend. You are right, the Israelis just want to
> > live in peace and didn't do anything to deserve those dastardly attacks by
> > the PLO.
>
> Believe it or not, Dan, most of us Israelis really *do* want to live in
> peace.
Yes, but peace on what terms?
"Israel sticks to settlement policy"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1315000/1315755.stm
When your country voted for Sharon they did not vote for diplomacy.
Scott A
> Don't make generalizations like that - they are the same kind that
> you suffered from as a child. And *nobody* deserves to be blown up, whether
> in buses or in their homes, *nobody* deserves to be taught to hate or to be
> hated. Not Israelis, not Palestinians, not Christians or Jews or Muslems.
>
> But I'll be honest with you. I must admit that I am less upset when two
> Palestinians are killed by Israeli soldiers than when it's the other way
> around. Even though both upset me. Sorry, such is reality, and I'd rather
> see no one die... but yeah, I won't lie, I'm more upset when it's Israelis,
> and I'm sure you're more upset when it's Palestinians, Dan. Wish it weren't
> so. And yeah, propaganda plays a big role in that, certainly. But that works
> both ways, mind you.
>
>
> The attacks Larry is condemning (or at least that *I* condemn) are mostly
> *not* by the PLO but by the Hamas and the Hizbollah (forgive me if I
> misspell those, I know them in Hebrew). *They* are terrorists in *my* eyes,
> they are kids and adults detonating bombs in civilian centers. And yes, the
> only reponse that Israel knows how to reply with is bombing them back. Dumb,
> isn't it? I think so, too, sometimes. Then I recall that they turned down
> peace agreements and that they will not rest until I, and every Jew in my
> country, is either dead or evicted. That's where they lose 99% of my
> sympathy. They still have that 1% (I can still sort-of see where they're
> coming from, although I completely disagree with their methods of action),
> and they could regain all of it back in a second if they only asked to sit
> down and talk.
>
> > The PLO is a terrorist group led by Yassir Arafat, who uses
> > children as terrorists. The Israelis have a right to live there because the
> > Bible says it's their home. By the way, the earth is flat, the moon is made
> > from cheese and stars are just pinholes in the curtain of night.
>
> Really? Good to know. ;-)
>
> As for the first two sentences, I disagree with them as much as you do. The
> Israelis have as much "right" to live there as the Palestinians do, or
> anyone else, for that matter. At times of my life I was totally going for
> "let's abandon the institution of country/state, it's a disgusting thing to
> have" line... and I still have my relapses.
>
> ("Imagine there's no country / It isn't hard to do / Nothing to live, or die
> for / And no religion too // Imagine all the people, living life in peace...")
>
> But I digress. As much as I love being a utopian, I have to inject a bit of
> reality into my system every now and then.
>
> > I respect your right to your opinions on the Middle East and I have no
> > intent, nor do I have any right, to suppress you. But I will continue to
> > exercise my right to debate whenever you express your opinions on this
> > matter. That is my promise to you!
>
> That's great (honestly!!) and please keep doing so. But just be wary about
> telling people they are not peaceful, and making generalizations - that part
> really got to me. And since, I think, you hate hate as much as I do, the
> best thing to do is to pay attention to things like that.
>
> I've already stayed up an hour more than I expected, and my fingers are
> shaking... ;-) So good night!
>
> -Shiri (an idealist as much as possible, but realistic as well)
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Message is in Reply To:
 | | Re: A question of remembrance...
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| Hi Dan, I've been following this part of the debate and specifically staying out of it, because I can tell when a cool-headed discussion turns into a hot flame war. Although this isn't a full-fledged flame war, it is certainly not a great debate, (...) (23 years ago, 7-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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