Subject:
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Re: A question of remembrance...
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Mon, 30 Apr 2001 17:20:15 GMT
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Viewed:
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668 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Richard Marchetti writes:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Scott Arthur writes:
> > Or are you saying that this is not true:
> > "Turkey and Israel are "free to take care of it". However, both have a
> > history of ignoring human rights and murdering civilians in the process."
>
> Okay, let's assume this is true. It probably is.
>
> My question is: so what?
My point was that perhaps they “should take care of it” without torture etc.
>
> Who comes to the table with clean hands? When it comes time to talk of
> peace there is usually blood on all sides. No side is innocent. No side is
> able to speak from a standpoint of complete rightousness. To make peace you
> have to respect the voices of all concerned -- even if they are the
> terrorists or murderers. At some point everyone has to agree to stop the
> violence, or peace is impossible.
>
> BTW, as to the other undying part of this thread about the EU. I think I
> must agree with your opponent -- if there was money in it, concerns for
> human rights would go out the window and any country would be accepted in.
As I understand it, to join, Turkey would have to bring its legislation in
line with that of the EU.
> Frankly, if it weren't for the fact that every country was already
> economically in bed with the Nazis they might not have achieved the means
> and the power to cause what is known as WW II nor the many other atrocities
> they had a significant hand in.
>
> What's more, Scott, you seem to come at people from the perspective that you
> can take them personally to task for the actions of their respective
> countries, and this is more than unfair.
Appearances can be deceptive ;-)
> Everyone is a product of their
> circumstances and their culture. I expect that somewhere in the world
> someone is being eradicated for the sake of the U.S. -- but you know what?
> Nobody consulted me in this decision, so if it is made on my behalf, it is
> also made without my consent or approval.
I agree. But your fair land has laws which means assassination etc are illegal.
>
> Pointing the accusatory finger is SO not as cool as waving the olive branch
> of peace -- and it achieves a possible good only by accident or but very
> obliquely.
Indeed. Perhaps, the nations we are talking about should do just that.
>
> Your arguments are too heavy with Ethos And Logos, and lack any Pathos. Is
> it your opinion that wars go on and on because people are thinkly about
> their cultural values or the veracity of their position? I figure they are
> thinking with their hearts -- angry and hurt and seeking payback.
There are different kinds of wars and conflicts.
> You can't
> talk to wars with logic...it simply has nothing to do with it!
I live in a country where known, but un-convictable, terrorists live normal
lives - rather like stereotypical Hollywood mafia leaders:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/events/northern_ireland/latest_news/newsid_151000/151917.stm#top
I expect my government to work within the law to bring these people to task.
We will loose if we have them shot in their beds or have them disappear one
dark night. Once caught, I expect them to be treated with respect. Despite
that, the police do not always get it right:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/northern_ireland/newsid_779000/779926.stm
>
> At some point someone has to think and say something like: "You killed my
> daughter, and I am angry and hurt -- but I have come to talk of peace and
> not of justice. Both sides share in the common guilt of bringing death to
> the other side. Now it is time to talk of life -- of our lives together in
> this part of the world." And this person has their hand out in the most
> generous gesture possible from their experience as a human being -- they are
> probably setting aside their every blood instinct to kill in order to
> champion peace and non-violence. And that is no small feat, it is
> emotionally an internal cataclysm. It is an earthquake that shatters
> souls...and I stand in awe and enormous respect for anyone that can make
> this world-saving move.
I agree.
Scott A
>
> -- Richard
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Message is in Reply To:
 | | Re: A question of remembrance...
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| (...) Okay, let's assume this is true. It probably is. My question is: so what? Who comes to the table with clean hands? When it comes time to talk of peace there is usually blood on all sides. No side is innocent. No side is able to speak from a (...) (23 years ago, 30-Apr-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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