Subject:
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Re: A question of remembrance...
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Sat, 28 Apr 2001 02:16:37 GMT
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Viewed:
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761 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Richard Marchetti writes:
<snip rebuffing-of-Scott-part>
> But, here is more my point: no one is innocent, but some of us are guiltier
> than others. The point is not the past, or even the present, but rather the
> future! What shall we do tomorrow to make the world a better place?
I agree. That is definitely the key here.
> Like I said before, no one wins until everyone drops their weapons. And no
> it's not about taking up the fight again with fists instead, Shiri (not that
> you don't already know this!). People need to get together on both sides
> and talk. We can count grievances on both sides until everyone is blue in
> the face, and get nowhere. Until you come to care about your enemy as if
> s/he were your neighbor, you will achieve nothing. You must learn to
> humanize and care for your enemy, then you can begin to work toward the
> common end of peace.
I *completely* agree. I think I came off really different in my last post;
don't get me wrong here. I am all for peace, at almost all costs. I was
(still am) a strong supporter of Meretz, the most human-rights-oriented and
peace-searching political party in Israel. I was out in the streets
supporting Barak in the '98 election. (Not the recent one, though... I was
in the US ;-).
Believe me, I want peace in Israel *very* much, and I *am* willing to pay
the price for it. But I really don't want that to be a human price.
> Monsters aren't made in a day, it takes time. Time in which their own
> grievances are counted and become incipient hatred. The terrorist of today
> was once just someone's son or daughter, father or mother, friend or lover
> -- until they lost someone they cared for to the madness that is violence.
> We must all of us remember that the face of a terrorist is yet but a human
> face deserving of our compassion.
<sigh> True. Sad and true. But once that monsterous rage forms, how do you
get rid of it? How can you make those people sit down and talk to us? Even
if the Palestian *leaders* do that (which is not happening right now!), you
still can't make their followers to listen. And as long as they *don't want*
peace, how can there be any communication between us? When they announce
that they will not rest until every single Israeli is either dead or out of
the area, and the entire Israeli country is wiped out! And this, mind you,
is not a terrorist announcement; this is an official PLO statement, that
they refuse to retract (The Palestenian Pact or some'n like that - I dunno
the direct translation).
I wish I could be closed in a room - no weapons - with a Palestinian my age
(or not), and just *talk*. Seriously talk. When you're one-on-one it's so
much easier to talk things out.
Plus I've discovered in person what we all supposedly know: that when you
get to know someone - *really* get to know them - it doesn't matter if they
are black, white, Hispanic or Asian, Christian or Jewish or Muslem or
Buddhist, gay or straight, male or female. This is something I've definitely
grown into in the past two years or so. And I have actually experienced it
in person, wheras until then it was all theory. So yes, I would be 100%
willing to just sit down and talk. But yeah, I would want assurance that
there wouldn't be any hidden weapons or anything like that. Y'know?
> > Hmm. And what about the rocket attacks I see your army perpatrate alsmost
> > daily on small towns... are those ones ~ok~? Do they not end in "major >tragedy"?
>
> Boy, you really know how to get up someone's snout when you want to eh, Scott?
No comment. ;-)
> I am not sure that I have seen anyone defend violence as such in this
> thread. On the other hand, I would never ask anyone to NOT defend
> themselves and their loved ones -- I have to think that such an act is
> allowable under any rational moral system. You can't save a drowning man
> unless you can act from a position of safety, if you take my meaning.
Well, according to Thoreau, if it's *your* fault he's drowning, then you
should save him at any cost. But that's just Thoreau, right? ;-)
(j/k, I actually love Thoreau and his ideas.)
> Shiri, like anyone, feels instinctively protective of herself and her own
> people. Nothing wrong with that. If Shiri asked me, and she has not, I
> would counsel her to proffer the olive branch to her enemies instead of a
> gun. To humanize the faces of hatred and wash away with tears the
> bloodstains of the far too many.
>
> That would be a good start...
>
> Then again, I am not really sure what her options are...
Since you mentioned it, I don't really have many options. If the IDF decides
I'm physically fit to serve (most people are), I'll be drafted at 18.
Period. Two years minimum for girls, three for boys. As a sidenote though, I
have asthma and severe allergies, so I might not be drafted. But to
reiterate - most people are.
> I'd fight to defend my country, my state, my city, my home -- at the same
> time, I would never fight a war on foreign soil. To me that would be
> immoral and I wouldn't do it. If Canada attacked the U.S. tomorrow, I would
> fight them right back to the border -- and from there they could go in peace.
Interesting.
But think about it this way - if you just left the border, they would come
right back, now wouldn't they? As long as they're determined, they could
stay there and fight over the border for years and years. In a way, that's
what is happening in Israel - of course, that's oversimplifying it.
> I guess that leaves open the question of the degree to which Israel is the
> home of Jews AND the home of Palestinians. I don't favor either side, I see
> blood on everyone's hands. I thought for a while there they were going to
> declare two independent states, Israel and Palestine - I mean, if they can't
> play well together, let them play apart from each other.
A large portion of Israel wants that, believe it or not. Maybe not half, but
still a large part. I think I speak for many people when I say we were
*extremely* disappointed after the September riots. I know many people lost
hope and stopped believing that the Palestinians want peace as much as we
do. I still think there is a chance, but I feel it is growing slimmer as the
days go by and the violence continues.
> Why didn't that
> work out? Or can it still? Seems like an excellent solution to me.
Likewise, and like I said, I'm not the only one who thinks so. But OTOH
there is prejudice against the Palestinians in Israel (well - duh), and many
people believe that "if you give them a finger, they'll take the whole
hand". But you see - Barak offered Arafat that finger - he was willing to
cooperate and settle for a Palestinian state. But the Palestinian don't seem
to want that single finger if they can't have the whole hand.
> Can the world be as sad as it seems...?
I don't know. Can it? There's always hope. There's always an option. I wish
there were some Palestinians on lugnet to talk to, but you see, they can't
afford computers. <frown>
-Shiri
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Message has 2 Replies:
 | | Re: A question of remembrance...
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| (...) Well, see? Here is my point: acting defensively is totally ethical from my viewpoint. And that takes me fighting right up to the border -- my line in the sand. Once my would-be conquerors are on the other side of that line I just don't care (...) (23 years ago, 28-Apr-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: A question of remembrance...
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| (...) Richard did not rebuff me. He only gave the fact I quoted some context. Or are you saying that this is not true: "Turkey and Israel are "free to take care of it". However, both have a history of ignoring human rights and murdering civilians in (...) (23 years ago, 29-Apr-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: A question of remembrance...
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| (...) That's the way of blood feuds. Or gang-warfare. Or <your phrase of choice here>! Still, a less polemical tone might be more appropriate for someone in Great Britian. Britain is hardly a country without fault, historically speaking. If the sun (...) (23 years ago, 27-Apr-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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