Debate : 21714


Off-Topic / Debate / 21714

Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Chris Maddison

Hey fellas, I've read a few of the many recent posts about firearms and whatnot. Welp, it's late and I feel like rambling a bit. Bear with me. Why is it that people dislike firearms so? I don't mean to pick on anyone, but in recent posts Dave and (...) (21 years ago, 26-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Chris Maddison

(...) Oops! That should be Dave, Dave and Scott. Don't want to be leaving anyone out. :-) -Chris (21 years ago, 26-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —John Neal

(...) Then you must mean "Dave, Scott and Dave!";-) JOHN (21 years ago, 26-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Scott Costello

(...) And I have no problem as the newer of the two Scott's being refeffered to as Scott C., the other Scott, The American Scott, or even Great Scott (. I just laughed when I read your post and thought "Hey, I'm pro gun, what is he talking about." (...) (21 years ago, 28-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Scott Arthur

(...) Ah. But I don't live in the USA; I live in Scotland (think Whisky, Haggis, Great Scenery & Rain). Where I live only 1 or 2 home-owners are killed by burglars each year. In 2000 there were a total of 64 (sixy-four) handgun offences in Scotland. (...) (21 years ago, 28-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Dave Schuler

(...) Pittsburgh, PA alone has about that many offenses each month. Maybe it's because we spell offenses with an "s" rather than a "c." (...) That suggests an interesting thought experiment, which I pose to our resident self-proclaimed "gun toting (...) (21 years ago, 28-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Mike Petrucelli

(...) Well you would kind of have to now wouldn't you? Of course enacting regulation in the first place and no impact on the crime rate so I don't see why deregulation would either. -Mike Petrucelli (21 years ago, 28-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Scott Arthur

(...) The latest stats for Scotland show: Handgun crime is lower now than 10 years ago (they were “banned” in 97). 50% of gun crime involves air weapons. Gun deaths per 100,000 = 0.12 (in the USA it is 4.08 - that's 3400% higher!) I think overall (...) (21 years ago, 28-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Chris Maddison

(...) Gotta stop ya right there. I think there should be a ban on certain firearms - Joe Schlub has no need to go buy an Uzi, AK-47, grenade launcher, etc. Sure, recreational shooting and all, yeah. These were weapons designed and built to take (...) (21 years ago, 28-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Richard Marchetti

(...) What's the problem? Under certain circumstances freemen have the right, and perhaps the duty, to take human lives in the defense of their home or homelands. Tool designed for the purpose of taking human life in the hands of the rightfully (...) (21 years ago, 28-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Terry Prosper

(...) I don't know the guy personnally, but one thing I can tell you, he is FAR from being an idiot. In fact, calling him an idiot because you don't like him and don't agree to his opinions makes me believe you are probably not as intelligent as he (...) (21 years ago, 7-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Mike Petrucelli

(...) Well if you are going to dig up old threads on this subject then you should probably read (URL) this one.> (...) Every country and US State that has enacted gun control laws has not had any noticable difference in gun crimes. The only thing (...) (21 years ago, 10-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Scott Arthur

(...) From this very thread: (URL) crime is lower now (in Scotland) than 10 years ago (they were "banned" in 97)." Scott A (21 years ago, 10-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Mike Petrucelli

(...) Also from that same post. "I think overall gun crime is rising (perhaps we should ban all guns?), but I doubt you’ll find data that suggest increased gun ownership in the UK would improve things?" Well guess what, the gun crime rate in the (...) (21 years ago, 10-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Scott Arthur

(...) Let's assume that's true. Look back to 10-15 years ago; there were large fluctuations in gun crime in the USA caused by the "shall-issue" laws. So your comparison with Bonnie Scotland is bogus. (...) Are you blind? Read what I said again: (...) (21 years ago, 11-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Mike Petrucelli

(...) Did you read what you wrote? (...) So making Hadguns illegal has only caused criminals to use other guns. (What a surprise.) Have you ever heard of the Black Market. Criminals will always have guns. (...) can draw is that both sides are using (...) (21 years ago, 12-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Dave Schuler

(...) That's not quite right. Logically, data cannot be used selectively to demonstrate the efficacy of gun control laws. However, it does not logically follow, therefore, that no correlation exists between gun control and gun crime. I happen to (...) (21 years ago, 12-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Scott Arthur

(...) As half-a-million legally owned guns are stolen in the USA each year, I'd suggest gun crime is somewhat dependent on lack of gun control legislation. ;) Ownership is one thing; ownership without responsibility is a different kettle of fish. (...) (21 years ago, 12-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Mike Petrucelli

(...) I agree with that. Now I am not an NRA member but one of their biggest "causes" (for lack of a better word) is insisting on responsible owenership. They also support mandatory minimum prison sentances for persons who commit crimes with guns. (...) (21 years ago, 13-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Bruce Schlickbernd

(...) "Insisting" is not a word that I think the NRA would use or want you to use. "Insisting" would means that they back mandatory gun safety courses as a precursor to gun ownership, something I don't believe they back (they want no impediments to (...) (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —David Koudys

(...) And scissors, pencils, and LEGO all have a primary function which has nothing to do with the ending or maiming of a life. What is a gun's *primary* function? As soon as you start realizing you can't sit there and say, "Well, such-n-such can (...) (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Dave Schuler

(...) But a gun's purpose isn't interently to shoot a person; that's an inferential purpose. By extension, the purpose of a pair of scissors is to cut things, therefore I can cut someone's throat with them, so scissors should be banned. A baseball (...) (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Bruce Schlickbernd

(...) (snipping rest of silly examples) The primary purpose of a gun is to shoot something - the primary purpose of a handgun is to shoot someone. The reason that they were developed in the first place were to shoot someone. The primary purpose of a (...) (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Dave Schuler

(...) Doh! Well, I guess that's right, but see below: (...) So you're saying that my specious argument (which took up lot of space) and Dave's specious argument (which also took up a lot of space) were of the same spacious specious species? After (...) (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —David Koudys

In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Dave Schuler wrote: <snip> (...) But are you a master debater? Dave K -I says pardon??? (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —David Koudys

(...) Hence I didn't say that the inherent purpose of a gun is to shoot someone. However, the 'usual' purpose of a gun *user* is to shoot at someone, either in an act of "defense" or in an act of crime. Maybe to scare, maybe to intimidate, and maybe (...) (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Dave Schuler

(...) Okay, but now we're back to "guns don't kill people; people kill people." If you wish to condemn guns based on their "intent," then you can't simply abandon that argument in favor of the user's "'usual' purpose." You seem to be claiming (...) (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —David Koudys

(...) I was cutting the other side some slack with my 'diplomatic wording'. It's called being nice to the other side. It is my personal contention that a gun's main purpose is to kill/main someone else in front of the gun, and I have as yet to be (...) (21 years ago, 16-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Mike Petrucelli

(...) Specifically what I said was: "Anyone that tries to take away my constitutionally protected fundamental rights better find a cure for brain lead first." (...) One that recognizes Freedom was purchased in blood. I highly doubt that I will ever (...) (21 years ago, 16-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —David Koudys

(...) Psst! Hey Mike, just for an FYI--we're in the 21st century. What worked in 1776 may not work so much right now. But that's just my personal opinion. And I'll point out once again that the 'establishment' has nukes and what else comes with the (...) (21 years ago, 16-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Mike Petrucelli

(...) Your right but the guns in the other 200ish million homes does. (...) Even a Muskett in everyone's hands would still work. The modern Military can not defend itself from millions of people attacking them in their own bases. (I honestly don't (...) (21 years ago, 16-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Pedro Silva

(...) I could not resist to comment: 1-americans must *really* feel lonely, at 1.4 per home! (*) 2-Those 200million guns (or whatever the figure) can never work as one. For starters, no wanna-be-oppressor would be dumb enough not to have a power (...) (21 years ago, 16-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —David Koudys

In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Mike Petrucelli wrote: <snip> (...) And I don't understand why you have a difficult time grasping the truth. 1776 history shows the differential in technology between the ruling powers and the common man to be rather (...) (21 years ago, 16-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Mike Petrucelli

(...) Maybe in Canada but not here in the U.S. (...) The only thing that garuntees the right to vote is the armed citizenry. (...) And won't be so long as we retain the ability to combat such opressors. (...) So long as I am armed my vote can never (...) (21 years ago, 16-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —David Koudys

(...) Constant avoidance of the truth does not make the truth go away. A citizen cannot purchase an F22. A citizen cannot have at his or her disposal an ICBM. A citizen can only have, at best, a gun. This makes the differntial rather large. It's the (...) (21 years ago, 17-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Frank Filz

(...) However, fighter jets and ICBMs don't "hold" territory. Just look at what's going on in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Palestine for examples of what an "armed" citizenry might be able to do to resist oppressors. (...) Right now the situation is not (...) (21 years ago, 17-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Frank Filz

(...) A cynic might even claim that the only reason the civil rights movement progressed was that a white minister was killed... See: (URL) (21 years ago, 17-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —David Koudys

(...) And I mentioned that in other countries, an armed citizenry is needed in order for them to make it to the end of a day. Are you saying that America is on par with Afghanistan? That you face the same problems? (...) Cites please. Show me at (...) (21 years ago, 17-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Bruce Schlickbernd

(...) Explain the Civil War (from {either} vantage point). (...) That is an extremely false analogy - is Frank saying that we need to have flintlock rifles and muskets? No, so where does this stuff about candles and dirt come in? Technological (...) (21 years ago, 17-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Mike Petrucelli

(...) My vote has no power at all. The power of the people is derived from their status of being collectively stronger than the military forces of the government. I seriously doubt that will ever need to be used, but so long as the government has (...) (21 years ago, 17-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Richard Marchetti

(...) Well, call my old man paranoid, but he is convinced the "smaller" nukes just okayed by the Senate are for use "in country." I generally support the right of citizens to be armed at the same level as the professional military, but I think I'll (...) (21 years ago, 18-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Mike Petrucelli

(...) I think if it actually came to nukes everyone lost already. Of course I happen to think oblivion is better than slavery, but I would still consider that losing. (I may be a little crazy, but I am not stupid.) -Mike Petrucelli (21 years ago, 18-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Mike Petrucelli

(...) I could be difficult and argue the definition of is*, but I think your logically right. ;-) There are quite a few things that might be responsible for the decrease in crime, like the increased rate of incarceration of criminals for example. I (...) (21 years ago, 13-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —John Neal

(...) Mike, for maximum effect: "I could be difficult and argue what the definition of is is". All I do is give, JOHN (21 years ago, 13-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Dave Schuler

(...) Citation, please. Dave! (21 years ago, 11-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Mike Petrucelli

(...) Online, I have no idea. Now in the papers, on the radio, on TV there have been numerous citations of studies which indicate that the crime rate as gone down but the brutality of crimes that do happen has increased, giving the overall (...) (21 years ago, 12-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Dave Schuler

(...) I would add to that the media slogan "if it bleeds, it leads" in terms of priority of news coverage. At least one study has demonstrated that murder rates have gone down by something like 18% over some recent period of time, but news coverage (...) (21 years ago, 12-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Scott Arthur

(...) Living in fear helps us all become good consumers. Have you never heard of Edward Bernase or his uncle? Scott A “I'm proud to be maladjusted and to which I call upon you to continue to be maladjusted." MLK (...) (21 years ago, 12-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Bruce Schlickbernd

(...) Ah, yes, but death by Claymores was twice that, death by Haggis twice the Claymore rate, and death by Single Malt...don't even get me started! -->Bruce<-- (yes, I was named after that Bruce) (21 years ago, 29-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Scott Arthur

(...) ...too true. The biggest killer in Scotland is actually the deep-fat-fryer (aka "chip-pan"). When my countrymen boil vegetables... it is usually in lard! Basically, if one can fit a food item in, that's the way to cook it. This includes: (...) (21 years ago, 29-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —David Laswell

(...) Okay... Let me toss out a few numbers to put this a bit more into perspective: Scotland Population (ca. 1991): 5,102,400 Population Density: 169/sq. mi. US Population (ca. 2000): 281,421,906 (55x Scotland) Population Density: 80/sq. mi. (0.47x (...) (21 years ago, 10-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Scott Arthur

(...) Does that really surprise you? I expect every hamlet, village, town and city on the planet has a greater population density than the whole of Scotland - think about it. Heck, my office has a population density of 200,000 / sq. mi... and there (...) (21 years ago, 11-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Dave Schuler

(...) As one of the Daves in this go-around, I'll offer my thoughts in response. I should underscore outright that I'm definitely not anti-gun. I admit that I have leaned more in that direction in the past, but my opinion has evolved, and I no (...) (21 years ago, 28-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Chris Maddison

(...) Very well put. I'd say I agree with 99% of that. Pumping a shotgun is a rather dramatic sound, eh? Tangent, but I always find it interesting that in movies, the action of the gun is always shown (heard) before the actual firing, simply because (...) (21 years ago, 28-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Dave Schuler

(...) Good point, but here's something that's always bothered me. Very often we'll see some menacing fellow onscreen brandishing a .45 or even a shotgun, and by brandishing it he coerces some other character to undertake some action or inaction. But (...) (21 years ago, 28-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Chris Maddison

(...) Exactly - for emphasis. It's all Hollywood. Common sense abandoned for dynamics. (...) Splitting hairs here, but I was taught (back to the respect and responsibility thing) that all guns are dangerous. Always treat it as if it's loaded, don't (...) (21 years ago, 28-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Bruce Schlickbernd

(...) It's about telling a story - it's a short-cut to tell the audience that tension is ratcheting up and that events are now balanced upon a fine hair. Using a gun in single-action mode (manually pulling back the trigger) is usually entirely (...) (21 years ago, 29-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Bruce Schlickbernd

(...) My favorite is the sound of a cocking gun in a movie with a hammerless gun. Or sounds of Bruce Campbell racking the slide on his double-barrel shotgun. -->Bruce<-- Good, bad: I'm the guy with the keyboard. (21 years ago, 29-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —David Koudys

In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Bruce Schlickbernd wrote: <snip> (...) "All right you primitive screwheads, listen up! See this? This is my BOOM STICK!!!!" My favourite dialogue from any movie ever! The quotes from that movie... "It's a trick (...) (21 years ago, 29-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Tim David

First I should say I am anti-gun ownership, possibly partly due to the fact that I am a UK subject (not citizen as I don't live in a republic) A point that appears in this thread is the term gun crime. In the UK pretty much all gun deaths/injuries (...) (21 years ago, 18-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Richard Marchetti

(...) I always see the term "gun related deaths" used when I see these kinds of statistics. I have no idea whether there's a criminal factor in the assessment of the deaths at all -- frankly, why should there be? I think its possible that you are (...) (21 years ago, 18-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —David Koudys

In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Richard Marchetti wrote: <snip> (...) <snip> (...) What a fascinating site. Here's a few figures-- 1. What was tthe intent or manner of the injury? -violence-related 2. What was the cause or mechanism of the injury? -all (...) (21 years ago, 18-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Richard Marchetti

(...) So what? All you've done is show that people are smart enough to use the best tool for a certain task -- if you intend to kill someone a gun is a good choice for that job. In a sense, if you could eliminate a person's motivation to kill you (...) (21 years ago, 18-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —David Koudys

(...) Why is that? What in your society, supposedly the freeest society on the planet, causes you to kill each other more often, per capita, than any other country in the world during peace time? I'll go so far as to grant you the premise that if (...) (21 years ago, 18-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Mike Petrucelli

(...) Well lets see... According to that site only 0.00004 percent of people decide to abuse freedom by killing others with guns. And only 0.00006 percent of people decide to kill themselves with guns. So in the "supposedly freeest society" only (...) (21 years ago, 18-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —David Koudys

(...) 25,000 violent deaths per year due to firearms is not a 'rampant problem'? 68 deaths a day 3 per hour. In the time it took us to write back and forth, say 3 hours, 9 people have died. 9 people whos violent "non accidental" deaths could have (...) (21 years ago, 18-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Bruce Schlickbernd

In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Koudys wrote: Massive ka-snip! (...) Those that don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. -->Bruce<-- (but then again, those that don't adapt to changing conditions are destined for extinction) :-) (21 years ago, 18-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —David Koudys

(...) And those that believe in dogma to the exclusion of rational thought are brain washed. Appealing to history to keep things the same as they were is not the same as learning from history in order to make oneself better. Saying you need guns in (...) (21 years ago, 18-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Bruce Schlickbernd

(...) You need to establish that - over the course of this and other threads you have repeatedly refered to the 1776 date as if that was the extent of people throwing off their governemtn in this country, and I have on more than one occassion (and (...) (21 years ago, 18-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —David Koudys

(...) The point is that we don't live the same way today as we did in '76. And we don't live in the civil war era. And, again, both condtions were war-time scenarios, and, again, both times there were armies involved. THe civil war was the army of (...) (21 years ago, 19-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Bruce Schlickbernd

(...) And if there was a revolt today against Dubya, why do you think it would not be a war time scenario, or that the opposition wouldn't form into an army? Or that the armed opposition wouldn't have come from home? And the point was that you kept (...) (21 years ago, 19-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —David Koudys

(...) Wasn't it a massive insurrection against a tyranny? Didn't the newly started country raise a rather large army to ward off the Brits? Wasn't it, then, really, an army against an army? Whether you Yanks partook in gurrilla warfare in the woods (...) (21 years ago, 19-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Frank Filz

(...) True, but it didn't start that way. And if the farmers in 1775 had quietly rolled over and turned in their guns, the army of 1776 would not have been able to be raised. Here's a pretty good short account of the day: (URL) (21 years ago, 19-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Frank Filz

(...) You know, I just don't think many people really think about the implications of 1775 (which is actually far more relevant to this debate than 1776, by 1776 the whole thing was well under way). How many people have thought about the (...) (21 years ago, 19-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Democratic? (was: Sticking my gun ...) —Ross Crawford

(...) However the party system stuffs all that up by forcing members to vote "along party lines" instead of how their constituents want them to vote (except in conscience votes, which don't happen often in parliament). Note that I'm referring to (...) (21 years ago, 23-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Richard Marchetti

(...) This is not a small thing. See these newsbits: An open invitation to election fraud (URL) Not only is the country's leading touch-screen voting system so badly designed that votes can be easily changed, but its manufacturer is run by a (...) (21 years ago, 23-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —David Koudys

In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Richard Marchetti wrote: <snip all good links that I'll spend time readig...> (...) You'd think that if the 'equalizer' is the 'final check and balancer of the system', then the system would have that mandated somewhere, (...) (21 years ago, 23-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

The Blood of Patriots & Tyrants (was Re: Sticking my gun...etc.) —Richard Marchetti

From Thomas Jefferson to William Smith Paris, November 13, 1787 Dear Sir, -- I am now to acknowledge the receipt of your favors of October the 4th, 8th, & 26th. In the last you apologise for your letters of introduction to Americans coming here. It (...) (21 years ago, 23-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: The Blood of Patriots & Tyrants (was Re: Sticking my gun...etc.) —David Koudys

(...) <snip to the part which I believe, is the relavent part to this discussion> (...) <snip> TJ was a thoughtful and thorougly well versed man. For 1786. First, it's a letter, not a law, nor part of the constitution. If this 'preserving democracy (...) (21 years ago, 23-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: The Blood of Patriots & Tyrants (was Re: Sticking my gun...etc.) —Richard Marchetti

(...) Apples and oranges, Kooties. Xtian authorities have nothing to do with civil laws. My higher authority was variously a founder of my country, one of its primary legal authors, and an incredibly politically influential person besides. (...) (...) (21 years ago, 23-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: The Blood of Patriots & Tyrants (was Re: Sticking my gun...etc.) —David Koudys

(...) Not according to your current president, or some ex-judge stating that your judicial system is based on the 10 commandments--these political people are appealing to God and the Bible. I'd say it's a difference b/w Macintosh and Golden (...) (21 years ago, 23-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: The Blood of Patriots & Tyrants (was Re: Sticking my gun...etc.) —Richard Marchetti

Asked and answered ad nauseum. You want justification? I don't need any more than the law of the land on my side as far as I am concerned. You claim the law doesn't say what I claim it does, but my actions and those of thousands like me and unlike (...) (21 years ago, 23-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: The Blood of Patriots & Tyrants (was Re: Sticking my gun...etc.) —David Koudys

In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Richard Marchetti wrote: It's absolutely amazing how you keep missing the point. Let's just snip everything and go on a tirade that has nothing to do with the issue at hand, nor deal with any point that was raised. In the (...) (21 years ago, 24-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: The Blood of Patriots & Tyrants (was Re: Sticking my gun...etc.) —Larry Pieniazek

(...) You need to do a cost benefit analysis here. Even one homicide or accidental death is undeniably tragic, but death, in the long run, is not preventable. Everyone dies of something some time. Weigh those 11,000 or 25.000 (tragic) yearly deaths (...) (21 years ago, 24-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: The Blood of Patriots & Tyrants (was Re: Sticking my gun...etc.) —David Koudys

(...) Nicely stated Larry. There was a discusion earlier differentiating between accidents and homicides--people dying in mining or oil platform accidents is tragic, but is not the same as willfully taking another life in an act of homicide. (...) (21 years ago, 26-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: The Blood of Patriots & Tyrants (was Re: Sticking my gun...etc.) —David Koudys

In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Koudys wrote: Curse you whomever is doing the DoS attack! double posted--sorry about that... Dave K (21 years ago, 26-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: The Blood of Patriots & Tyrants (was Re: Sticking my gun...etc.) —Richard Marchetti

(...) " A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state..." The 2nd Amendment. militia = free state. Do you see it now? I could waste my time looking up references in state constitutions too, but why bother? I have this (...) (21 years ago, 24-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: The Blood of Patriots & Tyrants (was Re: Sticking my gun...etc.) —Mike Petrucelli

(...) Are you joking? "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." What the heck do you think it says? Well allow me to translate this into modern (...) (21 years ago, 24-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Voting Fraud (was Re: Sticking my etc.) —Richard Marchetti

More on this stuff today... Diebold takes down blackboxvoting.org (URL) This appears to be a public relations gaffe of staggering proportions on Diebold's part. It's not like bunging the terms "Diebold election fraud" into Google brings up only that (...) (21 years ago, 1-Oct-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Richard Marchetti

(...) In what way have you refuted every argument. This point you have about guns no longer serving a military use seems entirely specious. So specious that I think most people reading it are thinking to themselves, "Ugh, why bother trying to argue (...) (21 years ago, 18-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —David Koudys

(...) And we're back to appealing to what's going on in *other* countries and in other times. In *America*, *today*, your gun in your house does *nothing* to preserve your freedom. Your gun in your house takes away the freedom of your fellow (...) (21 years ago, 19-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Richard Marchetti

(...) Uh, that is seriously a load of crap. The U.S. is practically a warzone depending on where you live and the color of your skin. I have mentiond here before that I know of several instances of police abuse amongst people I know -- immediate (...) (21 years ago, 19-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —David Koudys

(...) And your gun in your house helped how? You bring up non-sequiters. Police corruption isn't fixed by having a gun in your house, it's fixed by 'the people' getting active--voting, educating, and fixing the system. And none of that requires a (...) (21 years ago, 19-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Richard Marchetti

(...) What exactly are you looking for here? Anecdotal evidence that a gun and self-reliance are political necessaries? If you don't believe that then nothing I say will change your mind. I guess I could tell you a story, but then you'd just tell me (...) (21 years ago, 22-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —David Koudys

In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Richard Marchetti wrote: <snip> (...) Well if ya wanna talk traffic, then that's a different kettle of fish. I was once driving to Toronto every weekend from work. On a good day it would be a 30 minute drive. On a bad (...) (21 years ago, 23-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Mike Petrucelli

(...) I belive the actuall number you wanted was 11,071. The other 16,586 are suicides. So you are slightly more likely to commit suicide with a gun than get shot by one. Regardless suicides only affect those that pull the trigger much like the (...) (21 years ago, 18-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —David Koudys

(...) I deny the validity of that point--an armed citizenry was valid for preserving freedom in the 18th century against a king who wanted to take that freedom away, but for those of us living in a long running democracy, now in the 21st century, (...) (21 years ago, 18-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Mike Petrucelli

(...) And yet you still have not addressed the post linked above. Throughout history there has never been a democracy where the citizenry was unarmed. Even in Canada, Britian, and Austrailia you still have armed citizenries. Nixion left office, my (...) (21 years ago, 18-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —David Koudys

In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Mike Petrucelli wrote: <snip> (...) I've been addressing it from the beginning--An armed citizenry is not needed I've talked with my local MPP, I've spoken with other politicians at various levels of political power (...) (21 years ago, 19-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Mike Petrucelli

(...) The opinions of a handful of politicians are irrelavent (as if they would be honest about it anyway.) You (and your politicians) can believe whatever hippy notions you want about the power of the people, but the real power of the people comes (...) (21 years ago, 23-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —David Koudys

(...) And we're right back to the beginning. I went to university, I minored in poli-sci and, occasionally, I went to class...(1) I had to read your constitution. I studied your laws. I looked at the democratic process. Not once did it say in *any* (...) (21 years ago, 23-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Bruce Schlickbernd

(...) Well, that's because I try to vote for people I won't have to shoot! Of course, having a peaceful alternative to shooting is always an advantage (if we can recall Davis, why not Bush! is my battlecry). :-) (...) Wrong - though perhaps you a (...) (21 years ago, 18-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Dave Schuler

(...) If I'm reading your statistics right, then I think the actual figure is 0.004 percent. I selected only homicide-related firearm deaths, yielding a total of 10,801, which represents 0.0039 percent. If my calculation is wrong, someone please (...) (21 years ago, 18-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Mike Petrucelli

(...) Well using the stats from here: (URL) 11,071 divided by 275,264,999 equals 4.0219425E-5 or 0.000040219425 (...) 1,100 divided by 275,264,999 equals 3.9961492E-6 or 0.0000039961492 And for the record, I trust that 0.000004 percent of the (...) (21 years ago, 18-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Dave Schuler

(...) Okay, but help out a poor English major. I thought that 0.00004 is 0.004%, rather than .00004 percent, just as 0.86 is 86%. Am I wrong? I admit that it's entirely possible! Dave! (semi-math-illiterate, to my shame) (21 years ago, 18-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Mike Petrucelli

(...) Oh! (...) No that was my mistake. Narf. :-) (...) -Mike Petrucelli (semi-spilling-illiterate, not really ashamed of it though.) P.S. 'Spelling' spelled 'spilling' is from a letter read in my 8th grade English class from the early 1800s written (...) (21 years ago, 18-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Dave Schuler

(...) A coworker once penned a letter of explanation to a client whose account had suffered an error in processing. My coworker wrote thus: "I apologize for any incontinence this may have caused you." Dave! (21 years ago, 18-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Mike Petrucelli

(...) LOL. Nice. -Mike Petrucelli (21 years ago, 18-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Maggie Cambron

(...) Dave! I think you meant to say you were semi-innumerate! Or heck, that would be the same as saying you were semi-numerate, wouldn't it? Not that I am convinced either is actually so. Maggie C. (who has been exposed to some real innumerates in (...) (21 years ago, 19-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.fun, FTX)

Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong... —Dave Schuler

(...) For a while I was semi-innumerable. I was absolutely beside myself and myself and myself and myself and myself and myself and myself and myself and myself and myself and myself and myself and myself and myself and myself and myself and myself (...) (21 years ago, 19-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.fun, FTX)