Subject:
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Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong...
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:52:24 GMT
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Viewed:
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632 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Richard Marchetti wrote:
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Koudys wrote:
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Give arguements for having a gun in your house today. I’ve refuted every
one.
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In what way have you refuted every argument. This point you have about guns
no longer serving a military use seems entirely specious. So specious that I
think most people reading it are thinking to themselves, “Ugh, why bother
trying to argue with someone convinced of that?”
Are we not armed with gun-like weapons in Iraq?
Frankly, what the hell are you talking about?
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And 25,000 folks a year won’t have to die just so the gun owners can have
their false security.
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Tell it to the people that fended off the Nazis in the Warsaw Ghetto,
Kooties.
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And we’re back to appealing to what’s going on in *other* countries and in other
times. In *America*, *today*, your gun in your house does *nothing* to preserve
your freedom. Your gun in your house takes away the freedom of your fellow
citizens.
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Tell it to the Iraqis who may soon be trying for a little more freedom than
they have had of late. I’m pretty sure that armed rebellions are built on
guns.
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I agree. In a country where you don’t know if you’re going to be alive 5
minutes from now, in a country where there’s no police forces cutting down the
crime, in a country where the armed forces are not working to maintain the
peace, order and freedoms of the citizens, then yes, have the gun. But if you
live at 32 Elm Street, Anywhere, USA, you aren’t living in that country.
So, again, I show you the deaths of your fellow citizens and you show me
specious arguements about other times and other countries.
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It’s your assertion that semi auto AK-47s, easily made fully auto, would be
worthless? I don’t happen to own one, but I know more than one person that
does.
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Good for you.
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You are blithely skipping over still living history as if the blood of the
many could be washed over by your pointedly ignorant words. Again, I ask
you: what the hell are you talking about?
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You’re ignoring the dying citizens around you *today*. What the hell are you
talking about? I’m ‘blithly skipping over still living history’? I gave you
Nixon. I gave you MLK, and elections every 2 or 4 years. I gave you thousands
of dead Americans today. And you give me Warsaw, Iraq, and the civil war.
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Prove to me that higher level rifles, shotguns, and semi-autos are going to
be worthless should an insurrection occur.
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Show me when a president in America didn’t leave power when the people voted him
out. Then we can talk about a ficticious insurrection.
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7,318,638 Swiss are just dead wrong, eh? The Swiss that intelligently stay
out of almost every international fracas. They are certainly as non-violent
as they can be. They are every bit as armed to the teeth as are americans.
Try this one (I just happened upon it by accident):
Gun Control: Myths and Realities
http://www.cato.org/cgi-bin/scripts/printtech.cgi/dailys/05-13-00.html
6. Lower murder rates in foreign countries prove that gun control works.
False. This is one of the favorite arguments of gun control proponents, and
yet the facts show that there is simply no correlation between gun control
laws and murder or suicide rates across a wide spectrum of nations and
cultures. In Israel and Switzerland, for example, a license to possess guns
is available on demand to every law-abiding adult, and guns are easily
obtainable in both nations. Both countries also allow widespread carrying of
concealed firearms, and yet, admits Dr. Arthur Kellerman, one of the foremost
medical advocates of gun control, Switzerland and Israel “have rates of
homicide that are low despite rates of home firearm ownership that are at
least as high as those in the United States.” A comparison of crime rates
within Europe reveals no correlation between access to guns and crime.
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And I gave you that a change in mindset would be better than getting the guns.
The Swiss aren’t going around talking about ‘brain lead’. Canadians certainly
aren’t. But see, the study doens’t delve into the attitudes of the country
where guns are concerned. So this is a cute study and all, but it doesn’t help
your point. If Americans had the mental fortitude where guns are concerned that
the Swiss, et al. do, then by all means, keep the guns. But you don’t, and with
‘outta my cold dead hands’ being passed down to subsequent generations, you
won’t.
Guns aren’t cancerous to the Swiss. They are to you. Cut the cancer.
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Interestingly, those same Israelis seem to have a problem with homemade
explosives strapped to people bent on suicide! If they should go to meet
their maker taking out some Israelis in a nightclub -- well, so much the
better for them, eh? I’m not advocating it, I’m not supporting it or the
aims of the persons that would do such a crazy thing. I am saying it can be
done, that is all. When people have the intent to kill each other a way to
accomplish it can be found -- however loathsome the means for achieving their
goals may be.
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And we’re back to this--cars, bats, and home-made bombs. Stop with the 5 year
old “Timmy can do it, so so can I!”
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You do not know what you are talking about when anyone can see that you are
pointedly ignoring simple and obvious facts of recent history.
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You’re ignoring the deaths of your fellow Americans. I don’t think I’ve ignored
one flawed point of yours, but have put out many “simple and obvious facts of
recent history” for you to refute, and they’ve been pointedly ignored.
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I think there are many things at work in the high incidents of violence in
the U.S. -- for one thing a lot of people come here from all kinds of
different places and that’s a lot of people not quite understanding each
other’s culture very well. Look how quickly many americans have reflexively
and ignorantly turned against even American Muslims!
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True.
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I’d say intolerance was a greater enemy to the peace than the guns in my
neighbors’ homes. Intolerance goes to motive. Having motive, people find the
means to achieve their ends.
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True. Mindsets can change!
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And me with my hunk of metal? My hunk of metal has never harmed a single
living thing. It has never been used by me for anything but practice
marksmanship. I hope it is never used for anything more than that. I am
about as non-violent a person as you are likely to meet. I am as anti-war as
it is reasonably possible to be; some might even consider me unreasonably
pacifistic. It is also the case that I’m just not stupid enough to give up my
guns.
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Again, like the cigarette, some people won’t get cancer if they smoke their
entire lives. How do *you* know that you won’t get cancer if you smoke? How do
*you* know that your gun in your house won’t be stolen or used in a violent
manner against your fellow citizen at sometime in the future?
You don’t. You can’t. Explain that to the family that just lost a family
member to a gun related violent death. You’ll have 30 opportunities today to do
just that.
Dave K
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Message has 1 Reply:
 | | Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong...
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| (...) Uh, that is seriously a load of crap. The U.S. is practically a warzone depending on where you live and the color of your skin. I have mentiond here before that I know of several instances of police abuse amongst people I know -- immediate (...) (21 years ago, 19-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong...
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| (...) In what way have you refuted every argument. This point you have about guns no longer serving a military use seems entirely specious. So specious that I think most people reading it are thinking to themselves, "Ugh, why bother trying to argue (...) (21 years ago, 18-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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