Subject:
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Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong...
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Fri, 19 Sep 2003 17:11:02 GMT
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Viewed:
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750 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Richard Marchetti wrote:
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Koudys wrote:
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I agree. In a country where you don’t know if you’re going to be alive 5
minutes from now, in a country where there’s no police forces cutting down
the crime, in a country where the armed forces are not working to maintain
the peace, order and freedoms of the citizens, then yes, have the gun. But
if you live at 32 Elm Street, Anywhere, USA, you aren’t living in that
country.
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Uh, that is seriously a load of crap. The U.S. is practically a warzone
depending on where you live and the color of your skin.
I have mentiond here before that I know of several instances of police abuse
amongst people I know -- immediate friends of mine. One such case would be
when the police forced their way into my pal’s apartment, planted drugs on
him, then beat him for a while, ultimately arresting him for possession of
the drugs they had planted on him in the first place. Luckily he had
neighbors witness the whole thing from the doorway of his flat. He was still
arrested and prosecuted but he managed to beat the rap. Afterwards, he had
to spend considerable time suing the policemen that did all of that BS to
him. And let’s not forget the permanent spinal injuries he suffered while
they had him on the ground and kicked him. Burbank, CA. circa the early
1980s. Not exactly the ghetto either.
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And your gun in your house helped how?
You bring up non-sequiters. Police corruption isn’t fixed by having a gun in
your house, it’s fixed by ‘the people’ getting active--voting, educating, and
fixing the system. And none of that requires a gun. A gun impedes the process
by having 30 violent deaths a day make the news, which causes more anger, more
frustration, and even *more* violence as the result.
Again your gun in your house isn’t fixing the system.
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If you don’t like that story, read the famous one:
Bivens v. Six Unknown Fed. Narcotics Agents, 403 U.S. 388
http://www.lectlaw.com/files/cas80.htm
“In such cases, there is no safety for the citizen, 403 U.S. 395 except in
the protection of the judicial tribunals, for rights which have been invaded
by the officers of the government, professing to act in its name. There
remains to him but the alternative of resistance, which may amount to crime.
What was that again, Kooties? Right -- the govt. is my friend and the police
are just there to “serve and protect” me. Did you know that the police have
no liability to serve and protect anyone not already in police custody? Think
about it -- if it were otherwise anyone suffering an injury of any kind in a
criminal matter would have the right to sue the police for dereliction of
duty and negligence. Of course, they have no such duty -- and consequently no
such lawsuits pending. And it has been tried, BTW.
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Put a sock in it Froggy--irrelevant points aren’t contributing to your case. If
the system needs fixing then fix it. I never said it didn’t. But show me how
your gun in your house helped in these instances. I showed you 11 thousand dead
people and you show me articles that, if there were guns on the victims or in
the victims homes, there would be a drastically higher probability that they’d
be dead as well. As if that helps.
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The contortions of logic necessary to see your side of this argument are
getting a little extreme. You have proven nothing and asserted much. I am
not against your position theoretically, but you are talking about things you
clearly do not understand.
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You’ve not once shown how your gun protects. I’ve showed how your gun kills
your fellow citizen. It is yourself, and not I, who is twisting reality to suit
your wants. I’ve showed you that the democratic process, flawed though it is,
works without the aid of guns. You clearly have no concept that guns in the
hands of Americans, have killed Americans, and will continue to do so. You
appeal to outmoded and flawed analogies to prop up your desire to own a gun.
You don’t talk about fixing the issues, you just point and say, “There! My
friend got beat up so I need a gun in my house!” “The freedom fighters in Iraq
have guns so I need one in my house!” “The 2nd says I have the right to bear
arms so I need one in my house!” At the cost of thousands of your fellow
citizens? You go hide in the closet with your gun and leave the real issues to
those of us who don’t hide from the truth.
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You express yourself in platitudes intended to pursuade, but what you haven’t
done is show me how an AK-47 is not the weapon upon which a political
rebellion could be predicated. You speak of the transition of power from
president to president as if that were the only game in town -- but hey, we
just had the losing party appointed president the last time around. Talk
about ignoring the facts.
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You haven’t shown me how America is going to be at a point where rebellion is
remotely necessary. Your own history has shown consistantly that when the
people speak, gov’ts change hands. Yes your president was appointed. Stuff
happens. Make sure you citizens fix the problems that caused that scenario to
occur. Fixing ahs nothing to do with guns--the guns aren’t going to fix
‘hanging chads’. The guns aren’t going to fix Dubya’s lies. The guns *only*
end the lives of your fellow Americans. That is all that guns can do in the
21st century in America, in the homes of people like you, and you haven’t shown
otherwise. You *can’t* show otherwise, because there isn’t any otherwise.
Again, go hide in the closet with your gun. Go ignore the deaths of people due
to your personal wants and desires. Just understand that, as time goes by, your
ignorant stance will become more apparent to those around you and, sooner or
later, others who once believed as you do will grow up and put away their wispy
notions based on false ideologies in favour of a better society, in which their
fellow citizen needn’t die in a violent homicide due to gun possession.
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Now I’m not ready today to do anything revolutionary, but the time may yet
come to perform acts as a matter of right and civic duty. Acts that may only
be exercised tomorrow if the right to bear arms is preserved today.
I don’t mean to be offensive here, but your debate style in this thread has
seemed quite thin and shrill, at least to me. Where’s the meat in your
arguments?
-- Hop-Frog
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And that, sir, signifies arrogant ignorance on your part. If you don’t wish to
remove your blinders, I can’t do it for you. We’re done.
Dave K
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Message has 1 Reply:
 | | Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong...
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| (...) What exactly are you looking for here? Anecdotal evidence that a gun and self-reliance are political necessaries? If you don't believe that then nothing I say will change your mind. I guess I could tell you a story, but then you'd just tell me (...) (21 years ago, 22-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong...
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| (...) Uh, that is seriously a load of crap. The U.S. is practically a warzone depending on where you live and the color of your skin. I have mentiond here before that I know of several instances of police abuse amongst people I know -- immediate (...) (21 years ago, 19-Sep-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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