 | | Re: Conspiracy theories: men on the moon
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(...) why not? aren't they debatable? (24 years ago, 8-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Conspiracy theories: men on the moon
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(...) Why ask about conspiracy theories? (24 years ago, 8-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Conspiracy theories: men on the moon
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes: <snip> (...) Ummm...why what? (24 years ago, 8-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) I think the mechanism being used so far (undercover employees reporting what they see) seems to be working fine for identifying problems. I am satisfied that this problem exists, just not as of yet clear on how endemic it is, nor clear that my (...) (24 years ago, 8-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Conspiracy theories: men on the moon
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(...) Beyond a shadow? I dunno. A shadow of doubt doesn't take much to support it. Beyond a reasonable doubt though, yes. (...) I share a trait with Dave! (see, got his name to be last in the sentence) I too will get into debates with people for no (...) (24 years ago, 8-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Conspiracy theories: men on the moon
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Is there anyone here who does not believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that men have indeed walked on the moon? I have spent some time in thought on this "conspiracy", and have decided, that I could never convince a skeptic that men have walked on the (...) (24 years ago, 8-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | bloody pictures
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Thank you Dan for providing the PETA link. Although the pictures and information on the site did not serve to change my cravings for beef products, it did serve to offer me a central source of information on the subject of animal cruelty and meat (...) (24 years ago, 8-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | on topic?
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the recent "debate" on animal rights/cruelty is "off-topic". The thread that this debate happens to be in, was originally about sexism in the work place. since someone kindly suggested to another that the "animal" debate should remain "on-topic", I (...) (24 years ago, 8-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | on the search for facts...
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I followed the PETA link that Dan provided. It was the first time I have ever been to the site and found it rather easy to navigate. Out of curiosity I even read an article specifically about animal abuse in rodeo. The article offered about a dozen (...) (24 years ago, 8-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Dog in pool incident
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(...) It happened when I was 16 years old. I was living in Michigan at the time and in the summer I made a trip to visit my family in California. Since my friends helped me get the pool running that summer, my mother agreed to let them swim there (...) (24 years ago, 8-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) I understand the motivation too, I think (who can be *sure* they understand the motivation of others?). But I cannot condone force initiation. We must exhaust the rule of law first before we get that extreme. I share your concern about farming (...) (24 years ago, 8-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) How do you mean 'only' Frank? I mean, you could just type an email to your senator and figure that you've done your part. That would be an alternative action. But it wouldn't do anything. You could picket in front of the place. That would be (...) (24 years ago, 8-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) I was trying to figure out how to say that, but I got hung up on how to actually do what you're suggesting Dan do. What about it? How would Dan, or I, substantiate claims of gross cruelty through negligence and intent? (...) Agreed. But do (...) (24 years ago, 8-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) I think there's a real difference between burning down a supposedly empty building (the reports I've read weren't "empty" buildings, and destroyed not just the potentially abusive research, but also research which did not use animals) and (...) (24 years ago, 8-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) I would assert that if you wish any success in encouraging people to change their views on the way animals are treated in this country that the onus is upon you to substantiate your claims. If the rest of us think that things are basically OK, (...) (24 years ago, 8-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) I don't think he was questioning the reasonability of your statement. He wanted you to cite some of the sources that you've used to come to that conclusion. Actually, I was reading the group yesterday when larry posted and went off to search (...) (24 years ago, 8-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) For the love of heaven, must we start a new thread as to define what a fact is? How about diatribe? Were there not enough facts given at these sites? The answers to your questions are often not right in front of you. Seek well and learn well. (...) (24 years ago, 8-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Pork chops anyone?
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(...) of them have cites). But they're better than the front page. (...) They appear to be hung off the media link. Not where I'd think to go first were I looking for facts. So no, in my exploring of a very busy and poorly laid out front page, I did (...) (24 years ago, 8-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) You assume too much. I did that already, or something close to it. Didn't like the quality of sites I found, and thought I'd just (without any aspersions being cast, which is why I just asked outright instead of prefacing it with "I already (...) (24 years ago, 8-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) What if it was an endorsement? Judge the motive before the deed. Sometimes certain causes lend themselves to extremes, so long as the innocent are not endangered. The worst fight I had in my life was when this guy threw my dog in my pool. I (...) (24 years ago, 8-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Pork chops anyone?
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(...) By all means, keep reading: (URL) you pass these up the first time around or are these reports the "rhetoric" you were talking about? Dan (24 years ago, 8-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) Well, perhaps I've lumped things together. It's something most of us do. On the other hand, I'm not so sure they "distance" themselves from ALF, they certainly mischaracterize the actions in this FAQ: (...) Or perhaps the not so harmless (...) (24 years ago, 8-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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I wasn't born yesterday, my friend. The way I see it, Larry, you have a computer and are smart enough to research the issue of animal abuse (or lack of) for yourself. The fact that you haven't yet (and you admitted this) speaks to your lack of (...) (24 years ago, 8-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Pork chops anyone?
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(...) And it certainly wouldn't help the cruel treatment of other animals which aren't bred for meat. I don't have any links, but I volunteered at the RSPCA (Royal Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Animals) for several years, and have seen photos (...) (24 years ago, 8-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Slaughterhouse images
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Warning, not for the squeamish: (URL) (24 years ago, 8-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Visit to a slaughterhouse
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Warning, not for the squeamish: (URL) (24 years ago, 8-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Pork chops anyone?
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(...) I support investigation of this and prosecution if warranted. There are laws on our books against this sort of thing and they need to be enforced. PETA alleges this is pervasive and endemic, (which I'm not convinced they have shown, per se, (...) (24 years ago, 8-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) That's vandalism, which isn't quite as nonviolent a form of civil disobedience as some other ones, but it's small potatoes, I suppose. Actually hitting someone might be a bit of "assault", though. (...) I'm with you on this, Dan. Their FAQ (...) (24 years ago, 8-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Pork chops anyone?
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Warning, not for the squeamish: (URL) (24 years ago, 8-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) It's not obvious to *me*. Always looking for the disagreement, eh? I ask for some reading material because I want to have an open mind and do some research and you conclude that I disagree apriori. (...) Not interested in *countering* it. I'm (...) (24 years ago, 8-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) PETA does this? That's news to me! I've heard of PETA protests where people threw pies and even animal blood on employees (mainly execs if I remember correctly) of fur makers and cosmetics companies that use animals for testing. Where did you (...) (24 years ago, 8-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) They are one of the most extreme "animal rights" organizations. While I do feel there probably are some bad practices with animals, I don't think blowing up buildings, burning buildings, and other such destructive (and possibly endangering (...) (24 years ago, 7-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) Why? Just curious. Dan (24 years ago, 7-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) I think some crop growing methods may be suspect also. Certainly there are situations of overuse of pesticides, and monoculture growing is probably not ideal either, but there's certainly less to potentially get up in arms about. (...) (...) (24 years ago, 7-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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>>In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Daniel Jassim writes: >> >>Seeing how horrid our agricultural practices are... (...) Then I'll rephrase it: "Seeing how horrid much of America's meat related agricultural practices are, in my opinion,..." Is that more (...) (24 years ago, 7-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) Do you have any cites for this? You've said it a few times, it may be time to take a closer look. I feel the need for a bit of reading on this topic so if you have some site cites that you feel present the case in a reasoned way, that would be (...) (24 years ago, 7-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: FOTM/LOTM (Loss of the Month) Some thoughts...
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(...) WARNING! Compartmentalized Dork-dom ahead! ;] Larry, I'm not sure why you're so convinced this isn't a .general topic. The discussion was about general "market goings-on" for LEGO. By its "charter", lugnet.off-topic.debate is for non-LEGO (...) (24 years ago, 7-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.admin.general)
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| |
| | Re: Ownership
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(...) Really? I just thought it was just an extension of man's territorial nature (maybe no different than dogs pissing on trees to mark territory). (...) Yeah, at what point can it be called exploitation? I think there is such thing as collective (...) (24 years ago, 7-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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Frank: Try envisioning the greater ethic behind my statement about ownership and maybe you'll appreciate it more. I think by picking it apart and making it overly technical, you've missed the greater lesson. If you want to disagree with the notion (...) (24 years ago, 7-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) Really? That's something I didn't know (but then again I dislike all seafood anyway so I know very little about it). Just out of curiousity, how does it make them poisonous? Is there some sort of drastic chemical change that happens when (...) (24 years ago, 7-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Scary Survey results about the US First Amendment
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(...) Keep reading. I think he came to grips with that contradiction and changed his viewpoint a bit. Very laudable! (24 years ago, 7-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Ownership (was: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?))
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(...) I've been having a crisis of faith over the past several months and tried to bring it up unsuccessfully once before, but this ties into it. To get to the point, I'm having trouble justifying ownership. The entire notion of ownership actually. (...) (24 years ago, 7-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Scary Survey results about the US First Amendment
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(...) Uh Duane...it appears as if you are saying that you're glad that the first ammendment was violated by restricting the press, but you'd never want to see the press restricted. What gives? Chris (24 years ago, 7-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) Sure you were. Weren't you purposely neglecting to consider the source of the food? :-) Chris (24 years ago, 7-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) Hmm, since we've been playing with taking interpretations to extremes to see how they work out, a technique which I wholeheartedly endorse... - Can you justify your ownership of anything metal? The metal was "found". - Can you justify your (...) (24 years ago, 7-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Validity testing (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) For the sake of staying within what I consider dubious givens, I would say that it was impossible for you to acquire ownership of sentient (the real meaning, not your vernacular one) beings (cows) without excercising some kind of 'might makes (...) (24 years ago, 7-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 3 Question (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) Don't I do this by discussing concepts of morality with you? (...) Do you mean the ability to conceive of morality and the lack there of, and different sets of morals? Or do you mean the tendency to act in a way that we consider moral? (...) (...) (24 years ago, 7-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) Honest question-- is this possible? I know that killing lobsters "incorrectly" makes them poisonous to eat. (...) Completely agree. However, since I don't kill my own cows, I feel quite morally distant from the act of their death-- But I (...) (24 years ago, 7-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) I say if you must eat them, at least kill them swiftly before tossing them in the boiling water. Why miss opportunities to be humane? It's good self discipline and shows character, in my opinion. For example, when an old and sick or dying pet (...) (24 years ago, 7-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) It was a combination of things. I think I've demonstrated by now that I can't help leaping into the argumentative fray, so when the opportunity presented itself to go head-to-head with an apologist of such a... litigious cul--I mean, religion, (...) (24 years ago, 7-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) Forget the magically appearing bus-- what I find totally amazing is that you actually spent 90 minutes with a Scientology recruiter! What did they do, bar the door shut? Maggie C. (24 years ago, 6-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) I'm certainly not saying Scientology is a cult. I would never say Scientology is a cult. Anyone who would say Scientology is a cult is nuts. No sir, Scientology definitely is no cult in my book. (...) Actually, while it's not high cinema, I (...) (24 years ago, 6-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) He'd tell you that you actualised your desire and voila, a bus. Or something like that. Warning, be very careful discussing this particular, ahem, well, whatever it is they are. I hear they have some majorly powerful lawyers and I'd rather (...) (24 years ago, 6-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) Gasp! You've read the super-secret extra-litigation copyrighted Operating Thetan documents? Don't you know that you can't properly appreciate those until you've been Declared Clear? You'd better take back that Undeserved and Inaccurate (...) (24 years ago, 6-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) Blasphemy! Who will protect us from Xenu (not The Warrior Princess) if not L. Ron? Dave! (24 years ago, 6-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) It was quite clearly a sign from God that Scientology is in fact stupid. DaveE (24 years ago, 6-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) Interestingly (or maybe not--you tell me), something analogous happened to me a few years ago during a one-on-one meeting with a Scientology "Advocate" (or whatever their brainwashers are called). Eventually I got sick of the crazy rhetoric (...) (24 years ago, 6-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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Ok, I noticed something odd while mulling over the topic on my way home last night... While I admitted elsewhere that I agree to a certain degree of immorality for eating meat, but that it was negligible, I'm actually not sure that's the case-- at (...) (24 years ago, 6-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Validity testing (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) Very disappointing. You guys never insulted each other either. :-) Try to do better next time Dave! (24 years ago, 6-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Validity testing (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Eaton writes: : (...) To-may-to, to-mah-to, I guess! The difference in our view seems to come down to this: I support a "transitional range" within which distinction is made between one state and another (be it (...) (24 years ago, 6-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Validity testing (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) Ah- I would are *similarly*. I.E. that a line *does* exist yet is next to impossible to find accurately. (...) Neither do I really-- that's why I said it only works if you define it differently. I really rather like the hot/cold example better (...) (24 years ago, 6-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Validity testing (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) Ah, now I see. That's what I get for jumping in mid-stride. I was approaching the issue as if you were espousing your own view, rather than pointing out the implications of an opposing view. Oops. (...) I would sum up by saying that it is not (...) (24 years ago, 6-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Scary Survey results about the US First Amendment
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|
(...) My intent is to spark interesting discussion, nothing more. I am not the only person who posts cites or excerpts from various places, although my frequency may be a bit higher than some. I would welcome others posting interesting discussion (...) (24 years ago, 6-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| |
| | Re: Scary Survey results about the US First Amendment
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Larry, I really would like to know what your intent is of continiously posting material from the Libertarian party? Are you hoping to "convert" people into Libertarians? That seems to be the general impression I am getting. Offhand, I cannot think (...) (24 years ago, 6-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| |
| | Re: The purpose of lugnet.off-topic.debate (was Re: What is spam?)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Matthew Gerber writes: <snip> (...) You've got a point, but it's not directed at the right group. *All* the off-topic groups are meant to discuss *non*-lego things, which is why (well... sorta (1)) they are on the default (...) (24 years ago, 6-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: The purpose of lugnet.off-topic.debate (was Re: What is spam?)
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(...) That wasn't Todd's intent, read the intro post he made that shows the charter. You are more than welcome not to participate. It would be too bad if you didn't, unlike some current participants we'd be better off without, but there is no one (...) (24 years ago, 6-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Validity testing (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) Long as its a 12 long technic axle so it can bend a bit.... 8?) (...) I think this is all consistent with my (current) view that we don't have any "fundamental" rights. They're all derived from our (collective) experience over the ages of (...) (24 years ago, 5-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Scary Survey results about the US First Amendment
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(...) I think I am defining that line of mine a little better. If there is questionable material on TV (which I feel there is), I don't watch it. If there are other people who feel as I do, ratings will drop. With dropping ratings, advertisers will (...) (24 years ago, 5-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | The purpose of lugnet.off-topic.debate (was Re: What is spam?)
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(...) Man, you're just lookin' for a debate (any debate!) today, aren't ya'? 8?D I know I'll likley break my own word at some time in the future, and probably get lambasted then for doing so, but here goes: <way too rightous for my own good> I read (...) (24 years ago, 5-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Scary Survey results about the US First Amendment
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(...) Yuck. The only checks on the media should be free market and property rights. (...) Protection against libel is a property right. (...) Things like autopsy photos should be adequately protected by property rights. The family most certainly has (...) (24 years ago, 5-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Validity testing (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) I never said they *must* emerge in their "fully developed" state-- only that they must, at some point, be considered "self-aware" at some *point*. And again, that's only assuming that at one point they *DON'T* exist AT ALL, and at another (...) (24 years ago, 5-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Scary Survey results about the US First Amendment
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(...) I think that the government *does* need to step in in cases of public interest and libel. Otherwise, if you don't like what you are reading - stop reading. On the other hand, those are both restrictions, so obviously I feel that governmental (...) (24 years ago, 5-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| |
| | Re: FOTM/LOTM (Loss of the Month) Some thoughts...
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|
In lugnet.general, Larry Pieniazek writes: - snip - (...) First of all, I would not define "class warfare" in this way. To me, "class warfare" sounds like a fight between the "have"s and the "have-not"s. Calling this discussion "class warfare" (...) (24 years ago, 5-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | What is spam? (was Re: Scary Survey results about the US First Amendment
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(...) People initiate topics all the time. Initiating a topic is, by nature, unbidden, except perhaps in the larger context of the events of the day raising awareness. So, then, any topic that is initiated by anyone can then be labeled spam by any (...) (24 years ago, 5-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) This, coming from you, is beyond laughable. You are the biggest contributor of useless noise to this group of anyone I've seen to date. (...) <ScottA> What's the matter? Not going to answer? Why not, afraid to? </ScottA> (...) -- | Tom Stangl, (...) (24 years ago, 5-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Scary Survey results about the US First Amendment
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(...) Come on, Larry. Look at it like whoever labeled it spam did: while YOU may have requested it, lugnet.off-topic.debate did NOT request it...you posted it for public consumption unbidden...that's why someone called it spam. That's all (Well, and (...) (24 years ago, 5-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Scary Survey results about the US First Amendment
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From my usual source, the Libertarian propaganda (NOT spam, mind you, I wanted it sent it to me, and I, as a regular participant of this group, feel it's worthy of discussion, so people who initially label it as spam are rude or clueless, take your (...) (24 years ago, 5-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Validity testing (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) Sort of, but you seem to keep forcing the choice to be made between only two options in a field of possibilities. (...) Not necessarily wrong, but the attempt is misguided if it seeks to form a hard distinction where none exists. You're (...) (24 years ago, 5-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Validity testing (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) That's my view as well-- they've got "rights" but their rights aren't nearly the same set of rights as we ascribe to humans. They're very diminished. (...) I'd say the latter. We have an obligation out of our own moral senses. Without such (...) (24 years ago, 5-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) Lacking, in my mind, means that something is able to have - just in a deficient or reduced manner. Unable is just that - without the ablity to have. The ability didn't exist in the first place. Like I said, I can see the distiction. I don't (...) (24 years ago, 5-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Validity testing (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Eaton writes: . I'm asking Larry where his line is, because I believe his (...) I'd agree that there needs to be a line or gray area or something. I sense I am about to well and thoroughly wrap myself around an axle (...) (24 years ago, 5-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Validity testing (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) Didn't I explain this before? I'm asking Larry where the line he's imagining is, not saying anything about what I believe with that statement-- And again, *IF* one asserts that animals do *NOT* have rights, *and* that humans *DO*, at some (...) (24 years ago, 5-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Validity testing (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) I agree that the boundary may not be as sharp as some may prefer. But is there a distinction? That is, are there things that do not have rights, in and of themselves? I'm in the camp that holds that there are. Rocks don't have rights, in and (...) (24 years ago, 5-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Validity testing (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) This, once again, is the false dichotomy at work. Are you not asking that a line be drawn as a crossroads between sentient and non-sentient (ie: crux)? It was my impression that you'd already agreed no such line could be drawn, even though a (...) (24 years ago, 5-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) within any moral framework? Or do you mean to say that we simply don't know if that framework exists or not? If the former, I think your disagreement with Larry is potentially flawed. If the latter, then your agreement with Chris's initial (...) (24 years ago, 5-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) Totally not following this. If something is unable, it clearly lacks. In what way is amoral an insufficient category to contain rocks, amoeba, grass and sheep (positing sheep are not self aware)? (...) If there is he hasn't given it. I would (...) (24 years ago, 5-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: FOTM/LOTM (Loss of the Month) Some thoughts...
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(...) Fair enough, sorry in turn if I came across a bit strong. In fairness you didn't, I was overreacting. In fact, reading back through various archives (I can't give a very crisp search string but try one with Quixote in it) here will reveal that (...) (24 years ago, 5-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) I still agree with Larry's distictions between being moral, immoral and amoral. Do you believe that things are either moral or immoral (to varying degrees), with no room for an amoral definition? Or is there a fourth definition in there (...) (24 years ago, 5-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: FOTM/LOTM (Loss of the Month) Some thoughts...
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(...) Actually, I didn't generalise at all. I criticized a "few" auctioneers who I have seen in the past rip the pants off of people( not neccesarily lego auctions only here ie. hockey card auctions, hotwheels auctions ). For example, a auctioneer (...) (24 years ago, 5-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Validity testing (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) While I agree that that *is* true in practice, the reason *behind* those social taboos *is* a moral reason, I think. So while it actually does violate *both* our morality *and* a social taboo, the actual reason behind it is purely moral, I (...) (24 years ago, 5-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Validity testing (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) Just as a quick note, I'm not sure I've given such a definition, other than by example ("I know it when I see it", or so I think). I'm open to someone trying to give one, I suspect it's a thorny problem. (the circular definition "you're self (...) (24 years ago, 5-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) I disagree. But I understand your point. Although the Cambridge link works for me, we can use your dictionary (above). It is not that your rock is "Lacking{1} moral sensibility" it is simply *unable* to have moral sensibility. The distinction (...) (24 years ago, 5-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Validity testing (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) Aha... now we've reached a potential crux. What do and do not have rights? Does a dog? How about a baby? Does a retarded human? Cro-magnon man? (...) Alright, I guess I'd dispute this, but only insofar as I think animals have rights. I just (...) (24 years ago, 5-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Validity testing (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) As far as I know, pigs are not self aware either. The only animals I know of that have been "scientifically" classified as self-aware are humans, dolphins and a couple species of great ape. Is there a correlation between intelligence and (...) (24 years ago, 5-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) The cambridge link didn't work for me. When I went here: (URL) got these: 1. Not admitting of moral distinctions or judgments; neither moral nor immoral. 2. Lacking moral sensibility; not caring about right and wrong. Seems to me that "moral", (...) (24 years ago, 5-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) I was asked if I thought A, B or C was true. I said "none". It is that simple. (...) I thought that, that is why I said "You are missing the point". :-) Scott A (...) (24 years ago, 5-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) What don't you understand? And how did "none" answer the question? I'm still confused Scott. Am I to infer your meaning? I've asked several times now for clarification and you have not even tried. (...) That's probably because I can't tell (...) (24 years ago, 5-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) That is not quite what I am saying. I am saying that it "can not be viewed within a moral framework". If we take amoral as meaning this: (URL) view that as being negative. (...) Taking it to its logical extreme is - illogical extreme is not (...) (24 years ago, 5-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) My voodoo doll comment was a jest - I hope you did not take it serious? But I did view yoru original comment as a little ominous. A little Coercive. A little paranoid. I find it stranger that you are not willing to explain it a little – (...) (24 years ago, 5-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) Because I find his comments very odd. No big deal. (...) You have never "met" me. Scott A (...) (24 years ago, 5-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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