Subject:
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Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Thu, 5 Jul 2001 10:06:43 GMT
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Viewed:
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1018 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Eaton writes:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Scott Arthur writes:
> > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Eaton writes:
> > > So, in that case, perhaps I should ask this: Were you wrong to agree? Or
> > > were to agreeing with something else? Were you agreeing that amorality is
> > > not immorality? Was that even an issue? Sounded to me like you were agreeing
> > > that the lion's action in such a case was amoral, seeing as that was the
> > > point being discussed.
> >
> > You are correct, it is not all that clear what I mean (from my perspective).
> > I was agreeing that the lion's view can not be viewed within a moral
> > framework, but I also think they should not be compared to one.
>
> ? So you were able to agree that the lion's view is amoral, but at the same
> time you think that such a statement should not be made? Are you saying "If
> I had to guess, I'd say it was amoral, but I don't think I should be forced
> to guess, as the guessing of such forces a moral,immoral, or amoral state
> upon the lion, none of which may be in order"?
That is not quite what I am saying. I am saying that it "can not be viewed
within a moral framework". If we take amoral as meaning this:
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=amoral*1+0
I view that as being negative.
>
> > I think it
> > is misleading to do so. Despite that, I admit that before this debate I
> > would have agreed that a lion’s own morals as we understand them. But now I
> > will go further than that and say we should not compare the way they
> > (animals) make decisions to our morals in anyway.
>
> Personally, I'll disagree. I don't think it can be a comparison of much
> "fact" so much as hypothesis, but I would be so bold as to assign morality
> of similar nature to our own to animals-- just not as highly developed.
>
> > > > > Ah, so all morality is conceited? If not, please clarify.
> > > >
> > > > No, inferring ones own morals on others is. If an individual makes a
> > > > donation to a charity they deem worthy - good for them. But it is wrong of
> > > > them to pass judgement on me for not doing the same.
> > >
> > > So morality is only useful insofar as how we judge ourselves? It would be
> > > conceited, rude, and incorrect to assume me being immoral for torturing a
> > > baby?
> >
> > You are taking an argument to its illogical extreme.
>
> Excellent. As I've advocated many times, taking something to the extreme is
> the only way to test its validity. If it doesn't hold at the extremes, it
> doesn't hold.
Taking it to its logical extreme is - illogical extreme is not (in my opinion).
>
> > None of us like to be
> > told that our morals do not live up to the high standard of others. To a
> > large extent, it is up to us how to live our lives, and I am not about to
> > pass judgement on anyone because they to not live to my moral standards. Do
> > you?
>
> Living up to *my* standards? No. However, the question is, of what use is
> the ability to judge morally? By your account, it would seem that the only
> "correct" application of moral judgement is on one's own self. Is that a
> fair assessment of your position?
Why should it not be? Most of us judge ourself far herder than anyone else
does. But if I were in the wrong, I would expect friends and family to
question me in some way - but not strangers.
>
> If so, what place is it of yours to tell me to keep my moral judgements to
> myself? Is it not "wrong" of you (incorrect, not immoral-- unless you *mean*
> immoral) to place such a judgement?
I am not say you should keep you moral judgements to yourself, I am saying
you should not judge others based on your own morals.
>
> > > How about if I *told* you I felt immoral? Can you *then* pass
> > > judgement on *me* based on *my* morality?
> >
> > No.
>
> Here's where I'll disagree *kinda*. Personally, I've agreed with you thus
> far with regards to moral judgement. However, since I agree that judging
> *ourselves* with our own moral judgement is "correct", I would also agree
> that judging someone else by their own moral standards is *also* correct.
> Does that mean accepting what they *tell* you per se? No. But the better
> idea of their morality you have, the more "accurately" you can judge them
> morally. Hence, if I think someone's violating their own moral code, I think
> they're immoral. Are they? Only insofar as my assessment is correct. I will
> of course concede that I may be wrong.
I shall let you be the judge of that. :-)
>
> > Individual morals, I expect, flow mainly from our parents and/or religion. I
> > do not think that individual morality is necessarily conceited, but I can
> > see how it could be argued that it is.
>
> So. What is the necessary difference between individual morality and
> societal morality? Is your (you Scott's) morality not a product of the
> society in which you were brought up?
Not really. Within my liftime many past "sins" have become the norm.
>
> > I do not think morality is conceited, I think moralising is. I *personally*
> > may not believe in sex before marriage (say) - it does not mean I have to
> > think any less of anyone for doing so. One could say the same about
> > vegetarianism. I have a lot of respect fore people who are able to stick to
> > a vegetarian diet, but I do get annoyed when I am told “meat is murder”.
>
> I'll merely attempt to make a further clarification, since it's what I
> believe: do you intend to say that moralizing is *conceited* or *incorrect*?
> Does moralizing *necessarily* imply conceit?
I think it does. Vegetarianism is a bad example, but many other moral issues
are just based of pejudice or gut feeling.
> > > > > Can we pass judgement on society?
> > > >
> > > > Why not? Some societies are clearly questionable.
> > >
> > > Isn't passing judgement on soceity conceited and wrong of us?
> >
> > That depends, I think we have to respect cultural morals as much as we can.
>
> Wait a sec-- so it depends? On what? What will/will not allow me to pass
> judgement on a society? From what you say above, it would sound like you
> should have said that such would be moralizing and hence at least conceited,
> if not my implied "incorrect".
There are many great cultures around us. Many have morals which do not match
our own - but I say "live and let live". But when these cultures use
"morals" to persecute individuals - I feel that is wrong.
Scott A
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