Subject:
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Re: Lobster Bisque (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Sun, 8 Jul 2001 14:07:56 GMT
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Viewed:
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1471 times
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> > > Seeing how horrid our agricultural practices are...
> > Do you have any cites for this?
>
> Then I'll rephrase it: "Seeing how horrid much of America's meat related
> agricultural practices are, in my opinion,..." Is that more reasonable?
I don't think he was questioning the reasonability of your statement. He
wanted you to cite some of the sources that you've used to come to that
conclusion. Actually, I was reading the group yesterday when larry posted and
went off to search at the various permaculture sites that I occasionally read.
I had a tough time of it. There are tons and tons and tons (more than anyone
could reasonably digest) of government studies about how well particular
alternative agriculture (designed to fight one or another ag problem) practices
work, but not much actually demonstrating that those problems exist at all.
But they do. I just haven't found easy to digest sources yet. Our overworking
of soil causes it to blow away and wash into the Gulf of Mexico. Our
overreliance on pesticide and herbicide and fungicide and nematocide and is
poisoning the earth for more than just right now. How long has DDT been
illegal in the US? It is still found in potatoes and other plants grown here.
Nothing in use today is as bad, but it is common to apply poisons that kill
wildlife. The entire ecology's reliance on variety is difficult to explain
because the topic is so big. But it is bad that we are poisoning lots of birds
and fish and the occasional mamal. Plants won't be distributed. The critters
that survive the poison, but needed to eat the no longer abundant fish, birds,
etc die off, and so on.
Dan took this in a way that I hadn't been thinking of (oddly), animal cruelty.
There are so many stories on routine animal cruelty, that I can't even imagine
what kind of cites would be needed. I think the CowsAreCool site is good
enough. Click at the link at the bottom that takes you to a horrific story of
a single cow's treatment. Obviously it was written and presented to make
humans feel bad for the cow. Does that mean that it isn't right? Or do we
just think that's OK? I know people who do, because it's just a cow.
There aren't good (that is, ones Larry would like, I suspect) cites on animal
cruelty because the only ones to conduct such studies arent interested. There
is too much money being made from animal cruelty because you people support it
hugely. It won't be given up as long as you all want it to keep happening and
keep paying those people to do it.
The whole discussionette that Dan, Frank, and Larry had about the rightness of
the ALF was ludicrous. I agree with Dan, but go farther. It is OK to do
anything that needs to be done to stop certain abominations. Dan thinks
property destruction is OK as long as people aren't hurt. To hell with that.
If people want to do the hurting they can damn well expect to be hurt back.
The only hesitation I have is that I've met some of these people and they're
kooks. I don't trust them to do so righteously.
> > I feel the need for a bit of reading on this topic so
> > if you have some site cites that you feel present the case in a reasoned
> > way, that would be great.
>
> Following the subtext of your statement above, reasonably speaking, it's
> obvious you take issue with my opinion or perhaps disagree with part or all
> of my statement.
Dan, get off your defensiveness. Larry can mostly be reasoned with. But
that's not what you're doing. He wants logic and fact. There's nothing wrong
with that. This particular argument can (as, I believe, all sound arguments
can) be won with those tools. But not with defensive reflex attacks.
> If that's the case, perhaps it would be more reasonable if
> you provide cites to counter my statement.
I know that Larry has already pointed this out, but he's not trying to counter
them. He wants to know what you have used to come to your conclusions.
Chris
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