Debate : 23665


Off-Topic / Debate / 23665

Re: From Reason: "It's all bad news - Chaos in liberated Iraq" —Scott Costello

(...) Here again the age old question, which is worse, stable but evil leaders, or democracy and instability. Similar thing happened in the Philippines, Marcos was corrupt and evil, but his regime was stable. As soon as he was removed chaos ensued. (...) (21 years ago, 6-Apr-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: From Reason: "It's all bad news - Chaos in occupied Iraq" —Scott Arthur

(...) ...and, like SH, Marcos was supported by Washington. (...) Forgive me, but I don’t remember the Philippines being invaded as part of an illegal and immoral war to remove Marcos? (...) It has been part of the occupation plan to fragment the (...) (21 years ago, 7-Apr-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Reason: "It's all bad news - Chaos in occupied Iraq" —Dave Schuler

(...) Well, let's look at the facts. The porn industry rakes in about $20 billion annually; how much money to Iraqis make off of their religious expression? Obviously, if they're not making a tidy profit, they're savages. Besides, don't castigate (...) (21 years ago, 7-Apr-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Reason: "It's all bad news - Chaos in occupied Iraq" —Larry Pieniazek

(...) Hey, Dave! Perhaps we should! The stuff is MUCH more offensive than looking at the human temple, er body, after all, Dave! (21 years ago, 7-Apr-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Reason: "It's all bad news - Chaos in occupied Iraq" —Scott Arthur

(...) That very much depends on the body in question! ;) I'll be spending the next few days cycling (MTB) around (URL) and Blair Athol>, if I see a (URL) real one> I'll take it's picture and post it here! Scott A(URL) .> (21 years ago, 7-Apr-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Reason: "It's all bad news - Chaos in occupied Iraq" —Scott Costello

(...) I’ve always thought that this was a silly criticism, true twenty years ago, during the Iran/Iraq war we supported Hussein as the lesser of two evils, you act as if we furnished his palace and rolled out the red carpet. We often have dealings (...) (21 years ago, 7-Apr-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Reason: "It's all bad news - Chaos in occupied Iraq" —Dave Schuler

(...) Well, the point is that to justify his choice to invade Iraq, Dubya condemned Hussein for using chemical and biological weapons against his enemies and his own people. Dubya did not mention that these were the very same weapons and delivery (...) (21 years ago, 7-Apr-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Reason: "It's all bad news - Chaos in occupied Iraq" —Scott Arthur

(...) Nor does he mention Washington's “inaction” at the time; did the washington not block a UN motion condemning SH? (...) No, some say it is second only to Scottish Haggis. Scott A (21 years ago, 7-Apr-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Reason: "It's all bad news - Chaos in occupied Iraq" —Scott Arthur

(...) lol. By "dealings", I assume you mean give them WMD and help oppress their populations? BTW: Don't forget, SH was the "lesser of two evils" during the 1991 uprising. (...) Are you saying all post 1945 US military actions have been illegal? (...) (21 years ago, 7-Apr-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Reason: "It's all bad news - Chaos in occupied Iraq" —Scott Costello

(...) No need to find a marriage licence between Hussein and OBL. The only link neccessary is that they both posed a threat. OBL was able to carry out his evil intentions in 2001, Hussein was stopped before he was able to harm us. (...) If Iraqi's (...) (21 years ago, 7-Apr-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Reason: "It's all bad news - Chaos in occupied Iraq" —Scott Arthur

(...) You have not answered my question! (...) What planet are you on!? Read (URL) this>: Up to 200,000 Iraqi believers, many of them Shias, crowded into the precinct of Baghdad's largest Sunni mosque yesterday to denounce the American occupation (...) (21 years ago, 11-Apr-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Reason: "It's all bad news - Chaos in occupied Iraq" —Dave Schuler

(...) If I could stop the murder of Iraqi civilians simply by over-estimating the number of deaths, I would certainly do so. Wouldn't you? Anyway, do you have documentation for your rebuttal of Iraqbodycount's methodology? If you're correct, then (...) (21 years ago, 12-Apr-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Reason: "It's all bad news - Chaos in occupied Iraq" —Dave Schuler

(...) Without commenting directly on www.iraqbodycount.net, I would like to offer (URL) this> article for consideration. You'll either need to subscribe to Salon or watch a brief promotional ad from a sponser, but it takes less than a minute. The (...) (21 years ago, 24-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Reason: "It's all bad news - Chaos in occupied Iraq" —John Neal

(...) Incorrect. In fact, the responsibility of those lost Iraqi lives can be attributed to OBL as well. Consider this recent NYT article by Thomas Friedman: (URL) The resistance in Iraq is coming primarily from outside Iraq, not in. As Friedman (...) (21 years ago, 24-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Reason: "It's all bad news - Chaos in occupied Iraq" —Dave Schuler

(...) It requires registration. Can you summarize it? Either way, since there is no valid, pre-existing link between Iraq and al Qaida, and since Dubya used that falsified link as one of the justifications for initiating his war, then al Qaida and (...) (21 years ago, 24-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Reason: "It's all bad news - Chaos in occupied Iraq" —Scott Arthur

(...) Is this really worth subscribing for? (...) Like those folks at that wedding? (...) ...Bush is increasing the threat; don't doubt that! Scott A (...) (21 years ago, 24-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Reason: "It's all bad news - Chaos in occupied Iraq" —John Neal

(...) Please. The New York Times is considered the most respected and established news source in the US (registration costs nothing). (...) Won't dignify that smart-ass remark with a repl.....uh, nevermind. (...) How do you increase a threat as (...) (21 years ago, 24-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Reason: "It's all bad news - Chaos in occupied Iraq" —Scott Arthur

(...) Only time and the risk of even more spam. (...) From its very pages: Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, a spokesman for the occupation forces, estimated that there were a total of 3,000 to 5,000 guerrilla fighters in Iraq, with 5 to 10 percent of those (...) (21 years ago, 25-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Reason: "It's all bad news - Chaos in occupied Iraq" —John Neal

(...) They are the ones who keep blowing themselves up and wreaking all of the havoc-- exactly what al-qaeda wants (not Iraq) (...) (snipped) Is this where I reply by posting a link to the Nick Berg slaughter? You are being a jerk. (...) So, 9-11 (...) (21 years ago, 25-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Reason: "It's all bad news - Chaos in occupied Iraq" —David Koudys

(...) You may think that Scotts missing your point, but the point you seem to be oblivious to is that the actions undertaken by this US administration isn't helpful to reducing or eliminating the terrorist threats. It's like this-- If 'the people' (...) (21 years ago, 25-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Reason: "It's all bad news - Chaos in occupied Iraq" —Dave Schuler

(...) Are you channeling a little (URL) Luc Picard> there? Dave! FUT OT.Geek (21 years ago, 25-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Reason: "It's all bad news - Chaos in occupied Iraq" —David Koudys

(...) Sign me up for that course! Dave K -I used to be able to talk 'Trek' with the best of 'em... now, not so much (21 years ago, 25-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, FTX)

Re: From Reason: "It's all bad news - Chaos in occupied Iraq" —John Neal

(...) Well, I'm totally lost-- I thought it was a little Inigo Montoya.... Who's "PB"? (...) DANGER, bank account ST:V season 2 out today! JOHN (21 years ago, 25-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, FTX)

Re: From Reason: "It's all bad news - Chaos in occupied Iraq" —David Koudys

(...) You already got it--Princess Bride--See, Inigo said the phrase in all seriousness--as a viewer of the Princess Bride, however, we can see the phrase as Satire (at least, that's how I took it) (...) I have as yet to own any of the ST franchise (...) (21 years ago, 25-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, FTX)

Re: From Reason: "It's all bad news - Chaos in occupied Iraq" —Dave Schuler

(...) , I'm totally lost-- I thought it was a little Inigo Montoya.... Who's (...) (URL) Paul Bunyan?> (URL) Peter Billingsley?> (URL) Peter Brady?> (URL) Philip Bailey?> (URL) Pearl Bailey?> (URL) Pearl Buck?> (URL) Patrick Bergen?> Dave! (21 years ago, 25-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, FTX)

Re: From Reason: "It's all bad news - Chaos in occupied Iraq" —John Neal

(...) :-) (URL) Peanut Butter?> ("Breakfast of Champions") (URL) Lead?> JOHN (Peter Brady....Good one, Dave!) (21 years ago, 25-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, FTX)

Re: From Reason: "It's all bad news - Chaos in occupied Iraq" —Dave Schuler

(...) I think Breakfast of Champions is either (URL) or (URL) WH> (...) Nice one! Dave! (21 years ago, 25-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, FTX)

Re: From Reason: "It's all bad news - Chaos in occupied Iraq" —John Neal

(...) What part of wiping out the Taliban in Afganistan wasn't helpful? What part of deposing SH, a known sponsor of terrorism and possessor of WMDs wasn't helpful? What would you suggest as an alternative response? (...) What war are you talking (...) (21 years ago, 25-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Reason: "It's all bad news - Chaos in occupied Iraq" —Scott Arthur

(...) From the New York Times: Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, a spokesman for the occupation forces, estimated that there were a total of 3,000 to 5,000 guerrilla fighters in Iraq, with 5 to 10 percent of those coming from outside the country. Since when (...) (21 years ago, 25-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Reason: "It's all bad news - Chaos in occupied Iraq" —Dave Schuler

(...) I know that John doesn't hang out in OT.Debate much anymore, and this isn't really an attempt to refute the claim he makes in this paragraph, but I recalled his statement when I read (URL) this.> A few 1,000 indeed. (...) Other thoughts re: a (...) (20 years ago, 4-Jan-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Reason: "It's all bad news - Chaos in occupied Iraq" —Scott Arthur

(...) Dave, that is all well and good, but those quotes are from before Iraq launched the 911(tm) attacks on the USA… please don’t over look that… er… fact. Bush (Jr): We have learned that terrorist attacks are not caused by the use of strength; (...) (20 years ago, 5-Jan-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Reason: "It's all bad news - Chaos in occupied Iraq" —Dave Schuler

In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Scott Arthur wrote:> that is all well and good, but those quotes are from before Iraq launched the (...) I forgot that Everything Changed On September Eleventh. Dave! (20 years ago, 5-Jan-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

What's a freedom fighter? —Don Heyse

(...) I know, I know. I promised myself I'd try to stay away from .debate. But this freedom fighter thing got me thinking. What's a freedom fighter? Who gets to decide? Were the IRA ever called freedom fighters? How are they generally perceived in (...) (21 years ago, 25-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: What's a freedom fighter? —Scott Arthur

(...) I expect they were; much of their funds came from the USA afterall. Read about (URL) & (URL) then tell us what you think. Scott A (...) (21 years ago, 25-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: What's a freedom fighter? —Pedro Silva

(...) Congratulations! You've just managed to sum up nearly all the wars: we're right, the enemy is wrong. We're brave, the enemy is villanous. We'll win, the enemy will lose. We think all this, the enemy... does too. So why is it he's the enemy, (...) (21 years ago, 25-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: What's a freedom fighter? —Don Heyse

(...) So if it really is all that muddy then what drives certain people (URL) post their opinion on it over and over and over and over and over, driving me nuts. I mean, I look at his background there and I don't see anything that says "crazy person (...) (21 years ago, 25-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

This is strange. (was: Re: What's a freedom fighter?) —Lindsay Frederick Braun

(...) This is totally an aside, but that is a very strange academic page, because it does not say where (from what institution) Scott got his PhD. Usually that is something that is broadcast far and wide to the heavens above, even in British (...) (21 years ago, 25-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: This is strange. (was: Re: What's a freedom fighter?) —Scott Arthur

(...) I have two work pages. This is "my" one, so the data you want is buried in the page... well the 1st paragraph really. Scott A (...) (21 years ago, 26-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: What's a freedom fighter? —David Koudys

In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Don Heyse wrote: <snip> (...) Scott, is that you? I knew you were pretty smart but my goodness! Nicely done. Now you're teaching? Shaping the minds of the younger generation? ;) Dave K (21 years ago, 26-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: What's a freedom fighter? —Larry Pieniazek

(...) Scary, isn't it? :-) (21 years ago, 26-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

work-pages & bridge postcards —Scott Arthur

(...) Indeed it is... at least he looks just as handsome as me. ;) (...) Yeah, but they won't let me teach politics. ;( (...) But these days a few of the "younger generation" are older than me... which I think is a good thing! I'm not sure how I (...) (21 years ago, 26-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: work-pages & bridge postcards —David Koudys

In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Scott Arthur wrote: snip (...) All I have is my personal website-- (URL) sometimes you'll see pics of me, which are usually humourous in and of themselves... snip (...) (21 years ago, 26-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: work-pages & bridge postcards —Larry Pieniazek

(...) I'm confused by that. Is it a public site or not? You'd get the feeling that Scott is embarassed by his work. (I do recall asking repeatedly what his doctorate was in and his curious refusal to answer directly). I look at that work site and I (...) (21 years ago, 26-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: work-pages & bridge postcards —Scott Arthur

(...) It is viewable. It can be found via (URL). What do you think? (...) Indeed, that is why the page has links to some of my publications. I'm not embarassed by my work, I now just choose not to talk about it here. No big deal. (...) I don't (...) (21 years ago, 26-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: work-pages & bridge postcards —John Neal

(...) I wonder why....too many Lefties on the faculty already? I know why they won't let you teach grammar>;^D JOHN (21 years ago, 26-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: work-pages & bridge postcards —Larry Pieniazek

(...) That must be some sort of slur against the UK, because his grammar is fine. So you must be saying it's too good to pass muster, or something. Which, as an anglophile, I resent. :-) (21 years ago, 26-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: work-pages & bridge postcards —John Neal

(...) Look again. (21 years ago, 27-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: What's a freedom fighter? —Scott Arthur

(...) I suppose there are 2 types of people: Those who accept the world is a crappy place. Those who want to do something about it. Which are you? As an aside, would I bother you less if I were pro-Bush? Scott A (21 years ago, 26-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: What's a freedom fighter? —Don Heyse

(...) You left out a third choice. Those who like to complain about it. (...) I don't think I fit in either of your categories. The world is not black and white. I accept the fact that I cannot change much of it and try to do what little I can to (...) (21 years ago, 26-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: What's a freedom fighter? —Scott Arthur

(...) Would you say that quite so readily if I were an American? BTW: I'm sorry if you are disturbed. ;) Scott A (21 years ago, 26-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: What's a freedom fighter? —Don Heyse

(...) Sure, why not. Hateful sentiments are disturbing regardless of the source. For instance, I find Dave Schuler's rabidness disturbing as well, but I take comfort in the fact that he's still somehow able to find time for the megablocks. You are (...) (21 years ago, 26-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: What's a freedom fighter? —Pedro Silva

(...) Rabid, Dave! :-O (...) Note this is the "off-topic" section - if you start speaking LEGO here, it gets kinda weird... there are better groups for that (most of lugnet, really) Then again, I am not the curator; Lar is better qualified than I am (...) (21 years ago, 26-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: What's a freedom fighter? —David Koudys

(...) If I may-- Don used a previous posting of someone (who shall remain nameless) and quoted almost word for word, substituting Iraq, AQ, et al, with Africa, UN, et al. I thought it was a fine demonstration of wording that can be used in other (...) (21 years ago, 26-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: What's a freedom fighter? —Pedro Silva

(...) It did sound familiar, yes. (...) No argument there, Dave. I merely point out the fact it appears incoherent to denounce whomever complains in o-t.d, and then go and do the same thing. In no way I criticize the content or style of the post; (...) (21 years ago, 26-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: What's a freedom fighter? —Don Heyse

(...) Nuts. I thought you were calling the words incoherent. Anyhow, I posted that as an attempt to show the ill effects of the emotionally charged language some people use in here. I don't have the energy to produce those kinds of words on my own. (...) (21 years ago, 26-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: What's a freedom fighter? —Scott Arthur

(...) It takes more than energy. Scott A (21 years ago, 26-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: What's a freedom fighter? —Don Heyse

(...) I'm not sure what you mean by that. Usually your writing is a bit long for me, but fairly clear. (21 years ago, 26-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: What's a freedom fighter? —Larry Pieniazek

(...) I've always associated "disturbed" with Dave! But not in a serious, bad way. More of a good way. I don't see him as rabid, I see him more as "consistent". Some of his premises are fallacious, but he's mostly on the side of the angels, as they (...) (21 years ago, 26-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

(canceled) —Don Heyse

(canceled) —Scott Arthur

(canceled) —Don Heyse

(canceled) —Larry Pieniazek

(canceled) —Don Heyse

(canceled) —Dave Schuler

(canceled) —David Koudys

(canceled) —Larry Pieniazek

(canceled) —Don Heyse

Re: What's a freedom fighter? —Don Heyse

(...) I don't know how. His writing is like a powerful magnetic field. Very polarizing. Normally my perspective spins around, tilting ever so slightly to the right these days. But in his presence I feel compelled to align myself against him. I don't (...) (21 years ago, 27-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: What's a freedom fighter? —Larry Pieniazek

(...) No I don't. It's grammatically correct, yes but rhetorically, it's quite weak. He dodges questions, doesn't address refutations, writes as if he doesn't get the point of other people's arguments even when spelt out in detail, and doesn't make (...) (21 years ago, 27-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: What's a freedom fighter? —Don Heyse

(...) See, now that's what I'm talking about. You debators probably all know what you meant by that sentence. I'm gonna have to look up "rhetorically" and find out what it means in that context. (...) Well, he's got me fooled then. I have enough (...) (21 years ago, 27-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: What's a freedom fighter? —Dave Schuler

This one's for Mike P! (...) I thought it was a Gone With The Wind/Star Wars reference: Rhett or Ric Olie. Dave! FUT OT.Deja-Vu (21 years ago, 27-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: What's a freedom fighter? —Scott Arthur

(...) Your posts yesterday suggest otherwise; 6 out of your last 7 have related to me. As an aside, there is something upsetting about having one's posts discussed by the only two (URL) plagiarists> I know on LUGNET. Before you both continue this (...) (21 years ago, 27-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: What's a freedom fighter? —Don Heyse

(...) Is that me? My vocab isn't what I wish it was, but I thought it was called something different when you substitute just a few of your own words. Kinda like Weird Al singing "Eat It", but not quite. Oh well, you're the PhD here, so you must be (...) (21 years ago, 27-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: What's a freedom fighter? —Larry Pieniazek

(...) Scott's been trotting that old canard out against me for years. I'm surprised and disappointed that he's trying to use it against you too now. My advice? Just ignore it, unless you want to make a complaint under announce/1629 yourself. I (...) (21 years ago, 27-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: What's a freedom fighter? —Scott Arthur

(...) I suggest you read (URL) this> and then apologise. Scott A (...) (21 years ago, 27-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: What's a freedom fighter? —Richard Parsons

(...) Its an interesting observation about the similarities between Scott and teenagers, and to my mind not nearly so negative as Larry might cheekily imply by ignoring them. Even more telling is the truly American approach of simply filtering out (...) (21 years ago, 28-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: What's a freedom fighter? —Dave Schuler

(...) See? I told you Australians hate freedom. Dave! (20 years ago, 28-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: What's a freedom fighter? —Scott Arthur

(...) They love it; most of their grandparents were convicts. ;) Scott A (...) (20 years ago, 28-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: What's a freedom fighter? —Richard Parsons

(...) Ha! No convicts in my line as far as I know (I'm sorry to say), but definitely some displaced Irish, downtrodden English, and the odd Scot. Mind you, that was all a long time ago, and its not like genealogy has been a big interest in my family (...) (20 years ago, 28-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: What's a freedom fighter? —John Neal

(...) Then we may be the same. Our FF were very wary of government and set up our Constitution to basically protect the people's freedom from the government they were establishing. Our heritage is colorful, but not for the same reasons as yours;-) (...) (20 years ago, 28-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: What's a freedom fighter? —Larry Pieniazek

(...) C /be/have been/ (...) Too bad we've deviated so far from that in the 200+ years since then. c.f. the Patriot Act for instance. ++Lar (who just got a telemarketing call from the GOP with one of those quasi surveys... after answering a few (...) (20 years ago, 28-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: What's a freedom fighter? —Scott Arthur

(...) Let's look at my "disturbing" (URL) again: Don: Were the IRA ever called freedom fighters? Scott: I expect they were; much of their funds came from the USA after all. Read and think about what I'm linking. I'm saying the IRA and the USA are (...) (21 years ago, 26-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: What's a freedom fighter? —Don Heyse

(...) Forget Dave, forget John. I was talking about you. Let me get this straight. Was I mistakenly reading anti-american sentiments into your remarks? I got the distinct impression that you despise me and everyone like me from your writings. To me (...) (21 years ago, 26-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: What's a freedom fighter? —John Neal

(...) Clearly? Please cite for those of us less enlightened than you. JOHN (21 years ago, 26-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: What's a freedom fighter? —Scott Arthur

(...) I must admit to enjoying this (URL). Scott A (21 years ago, 26-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: What's a freedom fighter? —Larry Pieniazek

(...) The problem with that theory denunciation is that, every once in a while, there IS a good guy bad guy war... And the problem wht THAT theory denunciation is that, "every once in a while" isn't very often, and it's hard to tell (from the (...) (21 years ago, 26-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: What's a freedom fighter? —John Neal

(...) I agree. So help me refute Dave! and his fallacious argument by assertion accusation:-) JOHN (21 years ago, 26-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: What's a freedom fighter? —Larry Pieniazek

(...) You snipped too much. The problem is this... The evidence so far is that this(1) isn't one of those cases. 1 - the war in Iraq, not the war on intolerance demonstrated via explosions (21 years ago, 26-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: What's a freedom fighter? —Terry Prosper

(...) "GWB's puppets of tyranny" sounds about right. Most people here think of this as a military invasion and therefore, an illegal intrusion in another country. The fact that Saddam isn't in power anymore is good, but the price to pay was too (...) (21 years ago, 27-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Reason: "It's all bad news - Chaos in occupied Iraq" —Dave Schuler

(...) On what basis do you declare these people to be psychotic, inhuman and irrational? Is it because they go to extraordinary lengths to force others to accept their extremist religious doctrines? Is it because they kill innocent civilians in the (...) (21 years ago, 25-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Reason: "It's all bad news - Chaos in occupied Iraq" —John Neal

(...) View the horrific video of these people screaming "Allah is the Greatest!" as one of them slowly slices off the head of an innocent human being and then holding up the severed head as a trophy and answer your own question. (...) (...) (21 years ago, 25-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Reason: "It's all bad news - Chaos in occupied Iraq" —Dave Schuler

This post is rather long. Sorry about that, for anyone who's following. (...) Well, I watched the entire "beheading" video, and honestly it's not particularly more horrifying that the pictures from Abu Ghraib. Yes, it's a brutal, premeditiated act, (...) (21 years ago, 25-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Reason: "It's all bad news - Chaos in occupied Iraq" —Scott Arthur

(...) Once caught, I wonder if they will be subjected to a 1-hour show trial? (...) Scott A (21 years ago, 25-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Reason: "It's all bad news - Chaos in occupied Iraq" —John Neal

(...) Well, even pictures of Nick Berg's slaughter couldn't have compared with the audio and video portrayal of it. (...) I believe we are talking about rogues, not policy, because that kind of behavior serves absolutely no useful purpose (as an (...) (21 years ago, 26-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Reason: "It's all bad news - Chaos in occupied Iraq" —David Koudys

(...) <snip> (...) When? If this is still about Iraq (and I didn't see in the conversation where it strayed from Iraq), when did Iraq act against you? Again I ask, 'how many Iraqi citizens were involved in 9/11? How many Saudis? And yet you use 9/11 (...) (21 years ago, 26-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: From Reason: "It's all bad news - Chaos in occupied Iraq" —Larry Pieniazek

(...) Huh? 4 terms? 4 years maybe. (21 years ago, 26-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: From Reason: "It's all bad news - Chaos in occupied Iraq" —John Neal

(...) A number? No. An example of their cruel, savage barbarism? Yes. War is different. Basically in war, you are saying to your enemy, "Surrender to us, or we probably will kill you." Even at any time in war, surrender is an option and the killing (...) (21 years ago, 26-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Reason: "It's all bad news - Chaos in occupied Iraq" —Dave Schuler

(...) I agree with the latter part; torture is notoriously unreliable as an information source. However, it is becoming increasingly clear that the torture at Abu Ghraib (and likely elsewhere) was endorsed by high ranking military personnel, up to (...) (21 years ago, 26-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Reason: "It's all bad news - Chaos in occupied Iraq" —John Neal

(...) Even if it is, it is policy (which is my point anyway). (...) Again, this is not our policy. (...) It doesn't. (...) They have more evidence than I, but I'm not sure it even matters to me anyway. (...) He still takes his orders from men, not (...) (21 years ago, 26-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Reason: "It's all bad news - Chaos in occupied Iraq" —Dave Schuler

(...) (URL) Here's> a fun little site (no longer current, but archived) that dissects Ms. Coulter's spew. Worth checking out for anyone mistakes Coulter for a legitimate journalist or worthwhile commentator. Dave! (20 years ago, 28-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Reason: "It's all bad news - Chaos in occupied Iraq" —Don Heyse

(...) Entertaining, but I only got a little ways in when I hit this. A.C.: "One can assume the director of the Nigerian Department of Tourism isn't too pleased. Winning the pageant site had been an uphill battle from the beginning. Some of the more (...) (20 years ago, 28-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Richard: "It's all bad news - Chaos is my fault" —Richard Parsons

(...) I see in this post this suggestion advanced again. I think I have seen it before. It goes well with this one that John prepared earlier: (...) I mentioned that I saw a structure and underlying logic in some of Scott's posts, and felt bad for (...) (20 years ago, 28-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: From Richard: "It's all bad news - Chaos is my fault" —David Koudys

In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Richard Parsons wrote: <snip> (...) Now this is why I hang out here.. Very nicely stated, Richard. Dave K (20 years ago, 28-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: From Richard: "It's all bad news - Chaos is my fault" —Don Heyse

(...) Hmmm, I thought it was a bit long winded and sort of lost track at the per capita part. In my politically incorrect world it seems a large part of the problem is those darned capitas. The third world produces so many of them it messes up the (...) (20 years ago, 28-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: From Richard: "It's all bad news - Chaos is my fault" —Dave Schuler

(...) Well, part of the reason that people in third-world nations have 10 kids is because 80% of those kids will likely die before puberty. Obviously that's not an inviolable statistic, and just as obviously it's not the only cause of skewed (...) (20 years ago, 28-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: From Richard: "It's all bad news - Chaos is my fault" —Don Heyse

(...) You don't actually have to look to the 3rd world to see the problem. It exists in your own backyard. The have-nots everywhere seem to reproduce faster. The imbalance will always exist, maybe it's programmed into our genes. You can bicker over (...) (20 years ago, 28-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: From Richard: "It's all bad news - Chaos is my fault" —Dave Schuler

(...) Well, I was only responding to the question as it was raised in regard to third world "per capita" breeding rates. (...) I don't know that we need to play the "genes" card right off the bat; it sort of implies that "proles naturally breed like (...) (20 years ago, 28-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: From Richard: "It's all bad news - Chaos is my fault" —Lindsay Frederick Braun

(...) Hi. 80% mortality? Not likely. In fact, the opposite is true; that's what's helping the problem of overpopulation along. The real pushing force is the *labor value* of children; in agricultural societies--or, better put, societies that still (...) (20 years ago, 28-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: From Richard: "It's all bad news - Chaos is my fault" —Dave Schuler

(...) Well, all right--80% is a gross exaggeration. Still, infant death rates are sharply higher in third world nations than in the "developed" countries. Lemmee take another looksee... According to this site: (URL) 1999 more than 30 nations had (...) (20 years ago, 28-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: From Richard: "It's all bad news - Chaos is my fault" —Don Heyse

(...) [snippity snip] (...) What! You've been beating me all along with bogus facts and figures? I hate that! Liar, liar, pants on fire! I win. There, that feels better. :^) Don PS. :^) :) :^) Just in case you sensitive folks missed the other one. (20 years ago, 28-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: From Richard: "It's all bad news - Chaos is my fault" —Dave Schuler

(...) Hey, don't attribute to my duplicity what can be explained by my doofusness! (...) I figured I'd let you have one once in a while to keep you interested. 8^) Dave! (20 years ago, 28-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: From Richard: "It's all bad news - Chaos is my fault" —Lindsay Frederick Braun

(...) !!! Divide it by ten, sir. Really, you're way off. Read your links again. The statistics give the number of deaths *per 1,000 live births* not the number per *100* live births. So that's 7.6%, not too far off in a very poor country. (...) (20 years ago, 28-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: From Richard: "It's all bad news - Chaos is my fault" —Dave Schuler

(...) Boy oh boy. Don't ask me to compute a tip the next time I dine on a Friday afternoon. It'll be hard to see my monitor until after my head-ectomy. The 76% figure came from (URL), in section 4.3. Poor citation on my part. **snip of the rest that (...) (20 years ago, 28-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Richard: "It's all bad news - Chaos is my fault" —Lindsay Frederick Braun

(...) Note the symbol is not % but its cousin, with two zeroes in the denominator. That indicates "76 of one thousand." If they'd meant 76/100, they would have used 0/0 and not 0/00. (...) We can play the Pirate Game, winner takes all... ;) all best (...) (20 years ago, 28-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Richard: "It's all bad news - Chaos is my fault" —Dave Schuler

(...) Man, this is just embarrassing. I did *not* note the mill sign. Maybe if they'd referred to basis points, it would have gotten through my skull. But probably not. I'm reminded of (URL) an admission I made long ago> in one of our many (...) (20 years ago, 1-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Richard: "It's all bad news - Chaos is my fault" —Don Heyse

(...) Are you sure about that? Children have very little labor value in our society, and I still see the have-nots reproducing faster. You've hit ONE reason, but not nearly ALL reasons. (...) Hmm, is that wealth the cause, or the result? Or are they (...) (20 years ago, 28-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: From Richard: "It's all bad news - Chaos is my fault" —Lindsay Frederick Braun

(...) Value systems die very hard. I was speaking primarily about the "third world" (or as we like to call it, the "two-thirds world"), but it's not hard to see that when people come here, the values system that promotes large families tends to have (...) (20 years ago, 28-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: From Richard: "It's all bad news - Chaos is my fault" —Larry Pieniazek

(...) There is a negative correlation between the average family size and the per capita GDP (or any of a number of other economic maturity indicators), in that as GDP goes up, people have less children. This is attributed to the shift away from (...) (20 years ago, 28-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: From Richard: "It's all bad news - Chaos is my fault" —Scott Arthur

(...) This is only part of the picture, but you do have a point. You may find it interesting to search Google for “(URL) birth control>” The reality is that developed countries are substantially responsible for much of the problems in the developing (...) (20 years ago, 28-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Richard: "It's all bad news - Chaos is my fault" —Don Heyse

(...) Hey now, I *am* one of those farmers. Pumpkins, not corn. What do you recommend *I* do. I can't exactly dump the extras in developing countries, but I have donated hundreds to local school fund raisers. Is that cutting into the 3rd world (...) (20 years ago, 28-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

country bumpkin's 'n' pumpkins —Scott Arthur

(...) Forget the developing world for now. Let's pretend I'm a pumpkin farming country bumpkin getting a subsidy from the EU to grow the awful things even though there is no market for them. Like you describe, I sell my surplus at a discount and (...) (20 years ago, 29-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: country bumpkin's 'n' pumpkins —Don Heyse

(...) [snip] Holy Cow! I'm finally getting through. Yes! That's what I've been trying to tell you. Take a break from .debate. Grab a toy and start some role playing. You'll feel much better. Let me recommend this one. (URL) comes with a pumpkin, a (...) (20 years ago, 29-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: country bumpkin's 'n' pumpkins —John Neal

(...) ZING! Good one, Don! :-) Too bad the set doesn't come with the (URL) so that the boy could hit it with the stick. On second thought, that might "hit" too close to home;-) JOHN (hehe..., a troll:-) (20 years ago, 29-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: country bumpkin's 'n' pumpkins —Don Heyse

(...) Well, if you're gonna play hit the bunny. I'd play with (URL) this one>. "That's the most foul, cruel, and bad-tempered rodent you ever set eyes on!" Now where's that monty python lego movie... Have fun, Don (20 years ago, 30-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: country bumpkin's 'n' pumpkins —John Neal

(...) Not without the Holy hand grenade of Antioch I won't! (...) Bummer. It seems to have disappeared from the LEGO web site:-( I have a little test of character, Don, and you passed the first one: 1. Must have love and appreciation of the work of (...) (20 years ago, 30-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Richard: "It's all bad news - Chaos is my fault" —Larry Pieniazek

(...) Bollocks. Most of the problems of the third world countries that are doing poorly are attributable to lack of the rule of law, and lack of enforceable property rights in those countries. Claiming it's the first world's fault is, frankly, a (...) (20 years ago, 28-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: From Richard: "It's all bad news - Chaos is my fault" —Richard Parsons

(...) Snip onerous list, but look out, I've gone long again. (...) There is no doubt that rule of law and property rights are problems in some places. As are local tinpots (which the first world tends to prop up in the name of trade which abhors (...) (20 years ago, 29-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: From Richard: "It's all bad news - Chaos is my fault" —John Neal

(...) Other countries such as Saudi Arabia, or any of the other oil-rich nations? Seems to me that we are directly responsible for the enrichment of these nations by our consumption. But back to the terrorists. First, let's dispense with the notion (...) (20 years ago, 29-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Richard: "It's all bad news - Chaos is my fault" —Scott Arthur

(...) I try to offer alternatives; I can't help it if you are not open to them! Do I have to offer alternatives? I'm not sure I do. Example: If I catch you having sex with your cat; do I have to offer you an alternative in order to suggest you stop? (...) (20 years ago, 29-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Richard: "It's all bad news - Chaos is my fault" —Richard Parsons

(...) Mmmmm. Oil rich countries like Iran and Iraq? And there is no doubt that a great deal of money is paid for natural resources, the question is whether the pricing and process is fair, and whether it leaves these countries better off or not. (...) (20 years ago, 29-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: From Richard: "It's all bad news - Chaos is my fault" —Lindsay Frederick Braun

(...) So you think that the oil wealth is distributed equally per capita? That's remarkably Socialist of you, John, but it's not the reality. The state (states, really, seven of 'em) where wealth distribution on public projects is greatest is the (...) (20 years ago, 29-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Richard: "It's all bad news - Chaos is my fault" —Ross Crawford

(...) "Peace cannot be kept by force; it can only be achieved by understanding." Albert Einstein (20 years ago, 30-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Richard: "It's all bad news - Chaos is my fault" —John Neal

(...) But it is achieved by force. JOHN (20 years ago, 31-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Richard: "It's all bad news - Chaos is my fault" —Scott Arthur

(...) You mean like in Israel/Palestine? Or do you mean like in WW1? Scott A (...) (20 years ago, 31-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Richard: "It's all bad news - Chaos is my fault" —John Neal

(...) First, Israel's restraint has perpetuated the conflict with the Palestinians. The conflict could have easily been ended as far back as in 1967 after the victory in the 6 Day War. WWI is a classic example illustrating my point. There was no (...) (20 years ago, 1-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Richard: "It's all bad news - Chaos is my fault" —Scott Arthur

(...) Tell that to the dead women and children on both sides. (...) "Civilized nations" do not continue (or start) a war when there is a non-violent alternative. Scott A (...) (20 years ago, 1-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Richard: "It's all bad news - Chaos is my fault" —Bruce Schlickbernd

(...) Actually, I'd cite WWI as a great example of what Ross was getting at: Peace cannot be kept by force; it can only be achieved by understanding. The key word you are missing is "kept". If there ever was a lack of understanding destined not to (...) (20 years ago, 1-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Richard: "It's all bad news - Chaos is my fault" —Scott Arthur

I think in FMJ, 8-Ball is shot in the leg. (...) John, your blind support for Israel, despite the "facts on the ground", is rather unsophisticated. In this group I have already shown you how Israel is a belligerent power which is currently led by an (...) (20 years ago, 2-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Richard: "It's all bad news - Chaos is my fault" —John Neal

(...) Yeah, and am I to suppose that your blind support for terrorism is sophisticated? Please. (...) And I pointed out that, even if you want to label Sharon in such a way, he is an elected official who will soon be gone; the true criminal and (...) (20 years ago, 2-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Richard: "It's all bad news - Chaos is my fault" —Dave Schuler

(...) Hey, don't drag (URL) Spider-Man> into this. Dave! (20 years ago, 2-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Richard: "It's all bad news - Chaos is my fault" —John Neal

(...) Flibbity Floo! I thought I came up with that! (URL) is nothing new under the sun> JOHN (20 years ago, 2-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Richard: "It's all bad news - Chaos is my fault" —Dave Schuler

(...) No need to be a pottymouth about this. (...) I just didn't want you to be accused of plagiarism. 8^) (...) Hmm. And here I thought that was (URL) Pete Seeger>. 8^) Dave! (20 years ago, 2-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Richard: "It's all bad news - Chaos is my fault" —John Neal

(...) hehe Good point. I should, at this juncture, point out that "Flibbity Floo™" is an expression coined by Dana Carvey AFAIK:-) Hear that, Scott? (...) Good one! (And I thought it was The Byrds;-) JOHN (20 years ago, 2-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.fun, FTX)

Re: From Richard: "It's all bad news - Chaos is my fault". —Scott Arthur

(...) ...and I thought the (URL) monkey theory> had been proven wrong! ;) Scott A (...) (20 years ago, 3-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Richard: "It's all bad news - Chaos is my fault" —Bruce Schlickbernd

(...) Ahhh, I remember those marvelous Ditko Spider-Man comics of my youth! No one drew like him. Oops, sorry, digressing on a digression... -->Does Whatver a Spider Can<-- (20 years ago, 2-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Richard: "It's all bad news - Chaos is my fault" —Scott Arthur

(...) That is rather offensive. I won't even bother to ask you to justify your statement. (...) That argument has some merit; I just can't remember you ever using it until today(?). Is any living man responsible for the murder of more civilians than (...) (20 years ago, 3-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Richard: "It's all bad news - Chaos is my fault" —David Koudys

(...) Yeah, the peace that came from force in the Soviet union for approximately 40ish years. That worked real well. Dave K (20 years ago, 31-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Reason: "It's all bad news - Chaos in occupied Iraq" —Dave Schuler

(...) Resurrecting an old point, but I came upon (URL) this> and thought it was relevant to Hannity "knowing his stuff." Dave! (20 years ago, 18-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Reason: "It's all bad news - Chaos in occupied Iraq" —John Neal

(...) (shrug) American Progress CEO John Podesta said, "I think when you get so distant from the facts as -- as guys like Limbaugh and Sean Hannity do, yeah, I think that tends to -- it kind of -- it tends to corrupt the dialogue." "So distant from (...) (20 years ago, 18-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)

Re: From Reason: "It's all bad news - Chaos in occupied Iraq" —Thomas Stangl

(...) You mean Conservative Freedom and Conservative Democracy, where the Conservatives get to tell you what to do, even in your own bedroom? No thanks, I'll pass on that. -- Tom Stangl *(URL) Visual FAQ home *(URL) Visual FAQ Home (21 years ago, 26-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: From Reason: "It's all bad news - Chaos in occupied Iraq" —Scott Arthur

(...) I assume that is suppostion. My point is that you appeared to be wrong when you said "The resistance in Iraq is coming primarily from outside Iraq, not in." OK? (...) What does using Nick Berg's "slaughter" to justify the bombing of a wedding (...) (21 years ago, 25-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)