Subject:
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Re: From Richard: "It's all bad news - Chaos is my fault"
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Sat, 29 May 2004 19:10:52 GMT
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Viewed:
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1509 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal wrote:
> Other countries such as Saudi Arabia, or any of the other oil-rich nations?
> Seems to me that we are {directly} responsible for the {enrichment} of these
> nations by our consumption.
Mmmmm. Oil rich countries like Iran and Iraq?
And there is no doubt that a great deal of money is paid for natural resources,
the question is whether the pricing and process is fair, and whether it leaves
these countries better off or not. There are some few shining examples of a
'yes', but many more 'no's.
> But back to the terrorists. First, let's dispense with the notion that
> Islamic Wahabi extremists give a rat's ass about social justice. They want
> their extremist views of Islam accepted over the whole world. They are not
> only {our} enemy, but the enemy of Muslims as well.
So you keep saying. Even to the extent that its true (and there a small extent
to which it is), its not helpful, and actively closes the door on finding a way
out of the mess.
> Frankly, your blather about the evils of the US sound strikingly familiar.
Really? Intriguing, isn't it?. One might have thought that this might have
represented an opportunity for you to engage with it.
> Perhaps I should ask: Do you agree with what the Islamic terrorists are
> doing, and if not, why not?
You have asked me this question before and I answered it. For the benefit of
newbies, no, I don't agree with what they're doing about it. Anymore than I
agree with what you or your government (or mine for that matter) is doing about
it. It will be interesting to see if these terrorists are successful in ending
what I have suggested are the problems though.
> And even as a larger question. If you and I are so oppressive to the third
> world, what exactly do you think should be done about it? Because quite
> frankly, I find people like you and SA who only complain and criticize but
> offer no solutions, ideas, or alternatives superciliously annoying.
Mmmmm. There is no value in discussing solutions to a problem you don't think
you have. It would be a distraction from the discussion of whether there is a
problem or not.
But since you ask, top of the list would be to stop calling your 'enemies'
'psychotic, inhuman, and irrational'. The next step would be to stop thinking
of them like that. That's probably more than enough of a challenge to start
with.
Even if your plan is simply to defeat them by military force (which I think is a
fatally incomplete plan), the most successful military leaders of history have
stressed time and again the need to understand your enemy, to be able to think
as he thinks, to be able to sense his values and logic, in order to be able to
predict his behaviours, to identify weak points in his military machine, not
just his battle line.
So even for militarists such as yourself, this would seem to be a rather good
idea.
As for being supercilious - there is no disdain in what I have said, and I hold
myself entirely as responsible as you. Appeals to something higher than
self-interest can seem supercilious (even when they're not), but its hard to
imagine how I could be disdainful of myself.
And your feeling annoyed - it might be helpful for you to get to the bottom of
why exactly. I find I feel frustrated when I can't get all the elements of an
issue to come together in a consistent way, when my principles are in conflict
and not balanced. It doesn't happen often ;-) but when it does, its a sure
pointer for me that I have got something wrong.
Richard
Still baldly going...
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