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(...) Very well put. I'd say I agree with 99% of that. Pumping a shotgun is a rather dramatic sound, eh? Tangent, but I always find it interesting that in movies, the action of the gun is always shown (heard) before the actual firing, simply because (...) (21 years ago, 28-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) I think the real difference lies in what you and I identify to constitute an immediate threat to oneself and one's family. It seems that you equate the act of breaking-in with the intent to inflict bodily harm, whereas I distinguish between (...) (21 years ago, 28-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong...
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(...) Pittsburgh, PA alone has about that many offenses each month. Maybe it's because we spell offenses with an "s" rather than a "c." (...) That suggests an interesting thought experiment, which I pose to our resident self-proclaimed "gun toting (...) (21 years ago, 28-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong...
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(...) As one of the Daves in this go-around, I'll offer my thoughts in response. I should underscore outright that I'm definitely not anti-gun. I admit that I have leaned more in that direction in the past, but my opinion has evolved, and I no (...) (21 years ago, 28-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) "One of the most common problems with handguns are unintentional deaths and injuries that occur when people handle guns. Approximately 17,000 unintentional gunshot wounds are treated in U.S. hospitals each year - 1 every 30 minutes, and (...) (21 years ago, 28-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) Yeah, that's the big problem -- my naïveté! Growing prison populations challenge already cash-strapped states (URL) WASHINGTON (AP) -- America's prison population grew again in 2002 despite a declining crime rate, costing the federal (...) (21 years ago, 28-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong...
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(...) Ah. But I don't live in the USA; I live in Scotland (think Whisky, Haggis, Great Scenery & Rain). Where I live only 1 or 2 home-owners are killed by burglars each year. In 2000 there were a total of 64 (sixy-four) handgun offences in Scotland. (...) (21 years ago, 28-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) Point One: Most burglaries occur during the day when nobody is home. This entire issue is a moot point, there is no confrontation. Most burglars hate confrontation. (Partly because it can lead to thier death.) Point Two: Yes, murderous (...) (21 years ago, 28-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) If you look down the barrel and pull the trigger, sure. It is very unlikely that you kill yourself with a gun unless it is intentional. It does however, happen, it is just very rare. (...) The way around that is proper gun use through training (...) (21 years ago, 28-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) Because it violates the freedom of people who wish to use them without affecting anyone else. Duh. (...) But they do not fall under the category of rape, murder, or stealing and as such only affect those who choose to participate. Anything (...) (21 years ago, 28-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) Sure, crime isn't the criminal's fault, it's society's! (...) You know, I've been meaning to ask you about that. So what if we have the hightest incarceration rate in the world. Should there be some magical limit? We as a society have certain (...) (21 years ago, 28-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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This is more of the usual right-wing idiocy. Beat down the victims of right-wing callousness. The problem is not incarcerating real criminals, the problem is the creation of crime! We are trying to legislate morality by creating whole categories of (...) (21 years ago, 27-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) I would agree that prison is now more of a "resort", and less of a deterrent to criminals and crime. I am certain that many people who are not criminals, but good, hardworking people, DO NOT have health care, exercise equipment or access to (...) (21 years ago, 27-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) Basically what you are arguing for is an increase in law enforcement personnel, which is fine (although adding to the tax burden), but in the end I don't think it will decrease the crime rate that much, although significantly drive pastry (...) (21 years ago, 26-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) Indeed not. The courts have fairly routinely announced that the only time the government is specifically responsible for you is when and if you are "in custody" (i.e. "under arrest") and even then they try to weasel out of responsibility most (...) (21 years ago, 26-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong...
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(...) Then you must mean "Dave, Scott and Dave!";-) JOHN (21 years ago, 26-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong...
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(...) Oops! That should be Dave, Dave and Scott. Don't want to be leaving anyone out. :-) -Chris (21 years ago, 26-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Sticking my gun where it doesn't belong...
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Hey fellas, I've read a few of the many recent posts about firearms and whatnot. Welp, it's late and I feel like rambling a bit. Bear with me. Why is it that people dislike firearms so? I don't mean to pick on anyone, but in recent posts Dave and (...) (21 years ago, 26-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) WTF? Did you even read my post? -Mike Petrucelli (21 years ago, 26-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) Oh the book is obviously conservatively biased, but the basic information pertaining to the Government successfully winning court cases which conclude they have no obligation to respond to 911 calls and/or insure the safty of specific (...) (21 years ago, 26-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) Actually I did here: (URL) (...) Ok now I think I am starting to see where you guys are coming from. I realize I may have come off a little "hard set" too. I would not be shooting at noises, as most of your example seem to suggest. I would (...) (21 years ago, 26-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Dave Schuler wrote: <snip> (...) :) Laugh out loud. In the end, I really do appreciate you guys. You give me much to think about and wrestle with. Keep up the astounding debates. <snip> (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) That's where I believe you're making an unsubstantiated leap. Even within the bounds of this discussion, you appear unwilling to consider any response other than "kill the intruder/it's his own fault" when other options truly are available to (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Mike Petrucelli wrote: <snip> (...) <snip> (...) How about having the police services *deter* people from committing crimes in the first place. Its very hard to know when and where a person who is set out to commit a (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) Thanks for the link. A quick run around the Internet finds no mention of the book except on Amazon and a few dozen rabidly pro-gun websites. In itself, that's not a refutation of the book's value, but I'm hesitant to assess its worth from such (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) Nope. Statistically, the person you are most likely to kill with that gun is yourself. (...) No, it applies to all gun use. Scott A (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) That is a flawed statistic. It applies to persons that own a gun but have never used it until they had to. (Which unfortunately is a lot of people) In my case I know how to properly use the weapon. Besides in close quaters a bladed weapon is (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) Well in this case "personal responsibility" falls on the person that breaks into someone elses home and winds up dead for it. The fact that the person was killed by the homeowner (who in my view is only defending their lives from the (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) By owning a gun are you not already doing that? Statistically, is the weapon not more likely to kill one of your own household than it is an intruder? Scott A (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) Why would I give someone that broke into my home the benefit of the doubt? (...) I would only incapacitate them if I could do so without risk to my life or loved ones. (such as a swift kick to the back of the head followed by several more to (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) (URL) (...) Its right up there with the myth that police actually prevent crime rather than the reality of the fact that they simply investigating after the fact 99.99 percent of the time. (...) -Mike Petrucelli (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) Cite, please. I've never heard this statistic and would value the chance to review the study that produced it. It's fine if you're employing intentional hyperbole, but that should be made clear to the audience. Dave! (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) ANd right back at you--how can you determine that the guy breaking into your house is out to kill you, instead of just taking your television? Again, look at the stats--thousands on thousands of cases of petty theft and burglary, and a scant (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) Doh! Straw man! No one is punishing anyone for "defending their own property/lives." Instead, people are being forced to accept the consequences of their actions when they choose to kill someone. Unless there is no way to defend yourself short (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) Ok seriously, how can you determine that is the only reason someone would have broken into your home? I won't give them the benefit of the doubt, if you want to in your home that is fine. In an idealistic world if I could somehow magically (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Mike Petrucelli wrote: <snip> (...) And I am baffeled at the 'logic' of taking a life over a television set. Dave K (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) Well in that specific case I would probably shoot the guy in the leg, kick him in the head a couple time to make good and sure he is unconscious, tie him up, and call the police. If that is illegal then I now know why the crime rate is so high (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: With Saddam's sons dead, now we just need to bag dad (Baghdad get it?)
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(...) (URL) Kooties, Todd's crazy FTX wants you to use your angle brackets, k? -- Hop-Frog (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: With Saddam's sons dead, now we just need to bag dad (Baghdad get it?)
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(...) A thoroughly good read as well: (URL) K (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: With Saddam's sons dead, now we just need to bag dad (Baghdad get it?)
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(...) Wrong again, John...that blaze of glory seems to have been more of a fizzle. It appears they were taken out with an overwhelming amount of force. Of course, it may have been strategically better to have taken them alive too. Excessive Force? (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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I've tried to stay out of this one because I am of two minds about it, but... I just wanted to point out to Mike that morality aside, the laws in most western countries probably do not allow you to kill someone who is fleeing just as you are not (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) Read further. You'll find that the kid Tony Martin murdered was from an ethnic minority of which Tony Martin previously threatened to put in a field and "machine gun"... nice man. You’ll also find the kid pleaded for his life before being (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) Dude, how obtuse can you be? Mike has REPEATEDLY told you that he isn't willing to risk his life on the off chance that a burgler isn't there to rape/and or kill, but simply and harmlessly to steal. How can the punishment fit the crime when (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) Shor' duz, pardner. Check out dem mighty gun-totin' wahoo-friendly Texas gun lawz! Take my stuff 'n I gets to plug you! Dem Kalifonicaters gotta actually be threatened an like, but here, if'n an orphan steal a crust o' yer bread, why shootin's (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) No I don't care about what is legal or illegal. I care about what is morally right and wrong. If it is rape, murder, or stealing it is morally wrong by any religion or lack thereof. If it is defending ones life and property, even if that means (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) And I can't believe that you can't read. It's not okay for somone to steal. That said, it's not okay for you to kill someone for stealing. Do the words 'punishment fir the crime' ring any vague bell? Read and come back with something relavent (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) No but none of those are criminal acts or occuring in my home potentially threating my life either. Frankly, I can't belive you think it is okay for someone to break into you home as long as they are only stealing? (...) Jaywalking is not a (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) Why? Do all smokers eventually do 'hard drugs'? Do all people who view erotica end up being Charles Manson? Justify please. (...) And this is civilized? Jaywalking warrants the death penalty? (...) And if someone steals my cloak, I'll offer (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) And again we go around with the punishment not suiting the crime. If someone is stealing your stuff, what justice is served by killing him? The punishment has to be proportional to the crime or, taking your idea of justice, we have is the (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) A persons guilt is not in question when they are caught in the act. The legal system pertains to persons who are charged after the fact. (...) If imprisoning someone who kills a person that broke into their home is your idea of a 'civil' (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) if someone is in MY house, taking MY stuff, i have to stand there and watch quietly? I dont think so. There are consequences to every action. If someone is too stupid to understand that this is my stuff and they should keep their hands off it, (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: With Saddam's sons dead, now we just need to bag dad (Baghdad get it?)
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(...) Skeptical which way? (...) And neither do I. At the same time I don't believe in letting them off the hook and overtaxing the vastly less wealthy members of our society instead. The reality is that we have a corporate welfare scheme of untold (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: With Saddam's sons dead, now we just need to bag dad (Baghdad get it?)
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(...) Saddam wasn't particularly unstable. His actions are fairly predictable, in fact. I suppose any dictatorship is inherently unstable, but that is hardly a valid excuse in and of itself (see: all the other dictatorships that the U.S. has no (...) (21 years ago, 24-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: With Saddam's sons dead, now we just need to bag dad (Baghdad get it?)
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(...) Let me say this, Dave! I won't defend big business. I am not a fan of "big business", nor am I a fan of big government. "Big" in these areas is bad IMO, inevitabley leading to corruption and abuse of power. I don't know any specifics about (...) (21 years ago, 24-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: With Saddam's sons dead, now we just need to bag dad (Baghdad get it?)
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(...) Yeah, I was called in on that characterization as well by Dave! What I meant basically was that sometimes violence can beget peace. How about it is good to resist against evil, even if that means going to war. But I think we are of the same (...) (21 years ago, 24-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: With Saddam's sons dead, now we just need to bag dad (Baghdad get it?)
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(...) Business, sure, but look at the circumstances. Cheney was Secretary of Defense in Gulf War I and CEO of Halliburton in 1995, and in 1999 oil deals were struck with Iraq. Let's remember that this was during the time when Saddam was already (...) (21 years ago, 24-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: With Saddam's sons dead, now we just need to bag dad (Baghdad get it?)
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(...) The Sons of Saddam seem to have forgotten that trite statement. Or perhaps, "He who lives be the sword, dies by the sword." So, yes, it's trite, but it also kinda backfires against David since it can also be used to explain why it happened. I (...) (21 years ago, 24-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: With Saddam's sons dead, now we just need to bag dad (Baghdad get it?)
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(...) That can't be applicable, the institutions whose legitimacy for trial was recognized have been overpassed. Trial would therefore be a farce without an impartial judge. (...) No longer "if". IMO it's just a question of taste (or sensibility, if (...) (21 years ago, 24-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: With Saddam's sons dead, now we just need to bag dad (Baghdad get it?)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal wrote: <snip> (...) And yet you still keep on missing the point--you didn't give the inspectors this long to do their job--doing their job without the support and 'proof' that you "Mericans supposedly had, btw, (...) (21 years ago, 24-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: With Saddam's sons dead, now we just need to bag dad (Baghdad get it?)
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(...) And the memory loss from the right must have the same short-life: the inspections were there to confirm the known WMD had been destroyed, and logic says what was destroyed can no longer be found. Can you prove those WMD were not destroyed? (...) (21 years ago, 24-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) Life is choices, and learning from past mistakes, and hopefully, as I probably don't have to mention to you, redemption. If yer dead, how can you work at that. I'm not an opponent to the death penalty, I am an opponent to 'vigilanty-ism'. As (...) (21 years ago, 24-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) Life. It's about choices (1). Be a mountain climber? You might fall and crack your skull open. Race cars? You might hit a stationary object at a rapid rate and scramble your brains. Break into someone's home? You might find that that occupant (...) (21 years ago, 24-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Wow! Little Canada in a 'International' issue!
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(URL) which 'tit for tat'... One Canadian dead, one Iranian dead. This is getting ugly. Dave K (21 years ago, 24-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) Lives? How many criminal acts are there? And how many of them end with a death? I think the percentages speak for themselves. I always love people who rant and rave about how Playboy leads to sexual molestors and predators "All those sexual (...) (21 years ago, 24-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) Well I certainly will not risk my life to try and find out first. If a person breaks into my house I will assume the worst and act accordingly. (...) No, I wonder how people can be so pacifistic when it comes to their lives and property. -Mike (...) (21 years ago, 24-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) Nice. Burgler != killer. So the 'kill or be killed' application does not apply. Sure you don't know the intention of said burgler, but because he broke one law doesn't immediately mean he 's going to commit murder. If we justified killing (...) (21 years ago, 24-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Let me see if I understand...
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Following the big-corporate push for deregulation (ie sanctioned monopolization) of the media, which was, of course, approved along party lines despite an unprecedented flood of public opposition, the FCC voted to raise the limits imposed on (...) (21 years ago, 24-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) Right so even that article said the "16-year-old kid" broke into his home. If your old enough to commit the crime your old enough get shot for it. I for one would not let someone survive breaking into my home regardless of which direction (...) (21 years ago, 24-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Corporate Responsibility
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Corporations get extraordinary benefits from being fictitious persons here in the states. My problem is that I don't see corporations holding up their end of the bargain... Corporate Tax Cheats Wreak Havoc On The Neediest Among Us (URL) All across (...) (21 years ago, 24-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: How many things need to stack up before we throw this jerk out?
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(...) Blair is the British PM... not the English. (...) (21 years ago, 24-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) The reality is that Mr Martin shot a 16-year-old kid in the back from a range of four feet using a weapon he should not have had. Read on: (URL) Mr Martin was tried using standards which put certain aspects of your legal system to shame. Why (...) (21 years ago, 24-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: With Saddam's sons dead, now we just need to bag dad (Baghdad get it?)
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(...) What ever happened to “innocent until proven guilty”? BTW: How hypocritical will it be if (as has been suggested) Rumsfeld publishes pictures of their bodies? Scott A (21 years ago, 24-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: With Saddam's sons dead, now we just need to bag dad (Baghdad get it?)
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(...) Y'know, I cannot recall a single instance before the administration of Shrub where the idea of detaining people in contravention of the most basic of all of our supposedly protected civil rights AND the idea of torturing them was part of every (...) (21 years ago, 24-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Ne or Ni [monty python]
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(...) Sorry to bring up an old thread (dons flame-resistant suit), but I've always thought it was 'ni.' But maybe that's just mi. I'd think 'nee' would be said 'nay.' At least in some countries. ekki ekki f'tang zwoop-boing bbmmbrwow ni -Tim (21 years ago, 24-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | Re: With Saddam's sons dead, now we just need to bag dad (Baghdad get it?)
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(...) So are you asserting that because they never had their day in court, they were innocent? (...) Your comparison is, if not completely laughable, not analogous. (...) Dude, to go out in a blaze of glory was their decision! I read a quotation (...) (21 years ago, 24-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: With Saddam's sons dead, now we just need to bag dad (Baghdad get it?)
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(...) I was referring to your partisan liberalness. (...) I think you are unaware of how liberal your ideas actually are. I know I'm conservative; I'd bet you think you are pretty moderate... (...) No (thanks to the Israelis). Your refusal to come (...) (21 years ago, 24-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: With Saddam's sons dead, now we just need to bag dad (Baghdad get it?)
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(...) Agreed. (...) Fair enough. (...) Hindsight is certainly 20/20. I would be more apt to concede culpability if we actually had any idea as to his evil character, and even given that it is sometimes necessary to choose a lesser of 2 evils (...) (21 years ago, 24-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: With Saddam's sons dead, now we just need to bag dad (Baghdad get it?)
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(...) From: (URL) did not identify the other two who were killed. U.S. officials said Tuesday that one appeared to be a bodyguard, the other a teenager who may have been Qusay's son." I wonder if the kid died trying to cover his father, is spite of (...) (21 years ago, 23-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: With Saddam's sons dead, now we just need to bag dad (Baghdad get it?)
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(...) They were bad. Do I celebrate *anyone's* death? No. Do I put "..seriously thought that the death of those two rat b***ards..." No. I think that justice would be served if the couple in St Kitts were put to death, but I would not celebrate it. (...) (21 years ago, 23-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: With Saddam's sons dead, now we just need to bag dad (Baghdad get it?)
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(...) Probably. But the impact of their deaths remains to be seen, alas. I am hopeful that the elimination of those two brutes will allow Iraq to begin to heal from the atrocities inflicted upon it by enemies both at home and abroad. However, it's (...) (21 years ago, 23-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: With Saddam's sons dead, now we just need to bag dad (Baghdad get it?)
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(...) Your certainty confounds me AGAIN! There was no trial. There is no evidence. Sure, there are allegations. All I do know is that two persons alleged to be Saddam's children and likewise alleged to be criminals against humanity were killed. I (...) (21 years ago, 23-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: With Saddam's sons dead, now we just need to bag dad (Baghdad get it?)
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(...) It matters a great deal to the Iraqi people. "Death of the kids"? Or how about "death of the murderous, sadistic thugs"? Look how pathetically partisan you've become-- criticizing the deaths of 2 pieces of human excrement. Sad, really. I (...) (21 years ago, 23-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: With Saddam's sons dead, now we just need to bag dad (Baghdad get it?)
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(...) And how many people seriously thoguht that the death of the kids was going to help? Not to sound pithy or anything much like that, but it's only the idiots and morons that don't learn from history--violence begets violence. And this is the (...) (21 years ago, 23-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Shrub wants control of media!
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White House Threatens Veto on Media-Ownership Cap (URL) WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The Bush administration said on Tuesday it would veto a large government-spending bill if it reimposed media-ownership caps that were recently relaxed by the Federal (...) (21 years ago, 23-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: With Saddam's sons dead, now we just need to bag dad (Baghdad get it?)
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(...) ...or not: U.S. Soldiers Killed After Saddam's Sons Die (URL) BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Two American soldiers were killed in ambushes in Iraq Wednesday, dashing any U.S. hopes that the killing of Saddam Hussein's sons, Uday and Qusay, would snuff (...) (21 years ago, 23-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: With Saddam's sons dead, now we just need to bag dad (Baghdad get it?)
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I'm uncomfortable with the idea of assassination as a worthy military or national goal, and I much would have preferred capture and trial. If killing them was the only way, then fine. But if there were options that were not pursued, then no. The (...) (21 years ago, 23-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | With Saddam's sons dead, now we just need to bag dad (Baghdad get it?)
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Although I don't revel in bloodshed, this should be great news to the entire world community. (URL) with evidence that these two were largely behind the guerrilla attacks on the coalition in Iraq hopeful the region will begin to calm down a bit. (...) (21 years ago, 23-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Who are the militia?
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That was a fantastic read! I'll have to back there later and read some more stuff. I wonder though, if the government actually decided to do something like that, what reason would it have for NOT forcing the "new" militia into military service at a (...) (21 years ago, 23-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Oct. Report Said Defeated Hussein Would Be Threat
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(...) NPR had a report on that very issue way back November or so, but the Liberal Media Conspiracy kept it out of the headlines since then... Pardon my cynicism, but here's how I think it'll happen, if it happens: If a chem/bio attack occurs, (...) (21 years ago, 22-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Oct. Report Said Defeated Hussein Would Be Threat
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Oct. Report Said Defeated Hussein Would Be Threat (URL) Last fall, the administration repeatedly warned in public of the danger that an unprovoked Iraqi President Saddam Hussein might give chemical or biological weapons to terrorists. "Iraq could (...) (21 years ago, 22-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Who are the militia?
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I'm not usually one of the link suppliers, but I thought this was interesting. (URL) (21 years ago, 22-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) Well, here's this week's "Top 10 Conserviative Idiots" which would be more humourous if people weren't dieing due to the ineptness, lying and outright warmongering of your current administration... (URL) K (21 years ago, 21-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(URL) I literally laughed out loud in disbelief over this case. "A danger to Burglers"??? JOHN (21 years ago, 21-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Further unravelling...
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Of course, it goes against the context that Bush went on 'good intelligence' to justify the war when he *didn't* even consult the CIA... (URL) just what 'darn good intelligence' did Dubya go on? The Niger lies... THe 45 minute lies... The Unmanned (...) (21 years ago, 21-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Unjust, unwise, unAmerican
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(...) However, even trial in regular court isn't quite what it used to be... (URL) "If we don't get our way and deny the defendant his right to a fair trial in the normal system, we're just going to take him to Gitmo so we get our way anyway. And (...) (21 years ago, 21-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Unjust, unwise, unAmerican
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(...) side of the Taliban... er, he went to a Taliban training camp. Maybe. Put him in US court and try him, or remand him to Australia. This "Man without a country" schtick is pretty tiresome. (21 years ago, 21-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Unjust, unwise, unAmerican
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(...) snip (...) Meanwhile David Hicks (and others) continue to be held without charge in Guantanamo Bay (URL) (21 years ago, 21-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Look who's rewriting history now
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(...) I'm not an optimist, I'm just giving Bush the benefit of the doubt. He's pretty much sol on his own account though now... I still think though Saddam needed to be removed. There are plenty of hostile govts in need of removing, but might as (...) (21 years ago, 19-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Unjust, unwise, unAmerican
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Jul 10th 2003 From The Economist print edition "America's plan to set up military commissions for the trials of terrorist suspects is a big mistake..." Here's the link to the rest of the story but it won't work, I don't think, unless you're a (...) (21 years ago, 19-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Look who's rewriting history now
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You paying attention, Stefan? Your optimism and love of country is misplaced when it comes to the schmuck living in the White House. Look who's rewriting history now (URL) WASHINGTON -- While the world continues to parse President Bush's 16 little (...) (21 years ago, 19-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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