 | | 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Lawrence Wilkes
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| | | Without any great surprise, the requests and subsequent rants to have Huw Millington remove his scans of the 2000 dealer catalogue only drew even greater attention to them. As a consequence, a quick look around the newsgroups shows several sites are (...) (25 years ago, 7-Dec-99, to lugnet.general)
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| | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Richard Franks
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| | | | | (...) It's a question of trying to do the right thing. Most of the people who are hosting the pictures will probably not have read the entire thread, or skimmed it. So we can't expect them to *fully* understand the situation, or even do the right (...) (25 years ago, 7-Dec-99, to lugnet.general)
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| | | | | (canceled) —James Brown
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| | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —James Brown
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| | | | | Just some minor nits...I putting this into .debate because it feels confrontational to me, and I'm responding in kind. Even if it's not confrontational *at* me. (...) The only rants I saw were people jumping on the "dictatorship" bandwagon. (...) (...) (25 years ago, 7-Dec-99, to lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Christopher Lannan
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| | | | | | | (...) I don't know if I see it as an issue. I was off the net all weekend, and looking on Monday AM I was mostly thinking "darn it- I missed them." I wonder how many of the people that were for taking the pictures down looked at them? Did anyone (...) (25 years ago, 7-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Scott Edward Sanburn
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| | | | | | | | | (...) Same here. :( (...) I read most of the debates, but I don't want to venture a guess, I will just wait a few weeks until I have the catalogs in front of me. Scott S. ___...___ Scott E. Sanburn CAD Operator Affiliated Engineers, Inc. Work Page: (...) (25 years ago, 7-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Todd Lehman
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| | | | | | | | (...) Bingo. (...) Bzzt. Rationalizing. --Todd (25 years ago, 8-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Selçuk Göre
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| | | | | | | | | Todd Lehman <lehman@javanet.com> wrote in message news:FMEvqu.Kr@lugnet.com... (...) <Snip> (...) have (...) That's the point, that's the POINT!.. Selçuk (25 years ago, 8-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Tom Stangl
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| | | | | | | | Todd, Let's face it, if TLC were THAT worried about the pics in the retailer catalog getting out there, they wouldn't release it so early. It's not rationalizing, it's flat out common sense. If TLC can't imagine that the pics WILL make it on the Web (...) (25 years ago, 8-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Todd Lehman
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| | | | | | | | (...) Oh, gee, yeah, that certainly justifies it. :-/ First, the retailer catalog was never "released" (to consumers). Retailer catalogs are sent to *retailers* for *retailers* to use for their businesses. Second, to the best of my knowledge, this (...) (25 years ago, 8-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —James Brown
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| | | | | | | | | (...) No. But I suspect you're the only ones that feel this strongly. I've stated (somewhere) that I honestly don't think it (the scans being out there) makes a difference, BUT that doesn't make it right. Bottom line: Those retailer catalogues are (...) (25 years ago, 8-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Todd Lehman
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) YES! YES! Exactly! --Todd (25 years ago, 8-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Mike Stanley
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) By and large, what gives you the impression that they DO respect US? Maybe respect certain individuals who show up at functions and show them how amazing a resource we can be to them, but even then only respect from a random employee or two? (...) (25 years ago, 8-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —James Brown
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| | | | | | | | | | | (...) Lego. (...) Not much, but who cares? Using "they don't respect me, so I won't respect them" is circular and self-defeating. (...) I think it's been blown way out of proportion too, but that doesn't change the inherent arguement. If it's (...) (25 years ago, 8-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | | | | Here's my quick opinion: TLG has the right to do as they wish with their information, and that includes putting restrictions on how and when (and if) it is made available. TLG doesn't respect us much, if at all, as a corporation now. This whole (...) (25 years ago, 8-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Kevin Loch
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) True, but: 1. I have never seen nor has anyone ever produced anything in _writing_ that indicates that a Vendors catalog is confidential, or privileged information. 2. It is true that they hold them close and don't give them out to everyone. (...) (25 years ago, 8-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Mark Koesel
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | "Kevin Loch" <kloch@opnsys.com> wrote in message news:FMFtxt.5K6@lugnet.com... [snipped well written, agreeable points throughout] (...) the (...) the (...) This may not be so, Kevin. For this year, Lego has apparently _intentionally_ left (...) (25 years ago, 8-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Mike Stanley
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) Do you have any evidence to support the assertion that TLG/C DOES respect us "much" or at all? I bet for every instance of an _individual_ Lego employee showing respect for another individual AFOL we can come up with at least one example of a (...) (25 years ago, 8-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Jasper Janssen
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| | | | | | | | | | | | (...) You _knew_ when you wrote that that _someone_ was going to quote you out of context, didn't you? Jasper (25 years ago, 8-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | | | | | (...) ya, and you were number 3 on my usual list of suspects, too. (25 years ago, 9-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Todd Lehman
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Well, that's not quite the point -- at least not what I was keying in on in what James wrote. James's point was that our not respecting their intellectual property gives them less reason to respect us, rather than more reason, regardless of (...) (25 years ago, 8-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Mike Stanley
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Yes, I see what you mean. I think it's somewhat irrelevant, but I see what you mean. I think one person posting several crappy scans of soon-to-be released sets (and not all this supposed TOP SECRET marketing material that has been alluded to) (...) (25 years ago, 9-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Richard Franks
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| | | | | | | | | (...) Nope, it just seems that way sometimes at 4:30am. (...) Because you care, not that caring is bad, and not that you care too much. It's just that caring also means getting hurt sometimes too. It's a human thing. But unless I have my timezones (...) (25 years ago, 8-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Todd Lehman
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Sleep? What's...(yawn)...sleep? :-) We're still a bit off-normal-schedule due to the moving Monday. I think I was up for 36 hours and then slept for 6. Pretty tired now, pretty irritable. :-) I shouldn't be posting. Time for bed. --Todd (25 years ago, 8-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Paul Davidson
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| | | | | | | | | You're probably not the only ones that feel that way, you just seem more vehement about it. You make a lot of good points, and I've since taken the pics down off my own web server. On the subject of legality and ethics, my daily job involves making (...) (25 years ago, 8-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Tom Stangl
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| | | | | | | | | I could reply to most of the post, but I'm hoping to get this entire thread to die down until we hear from TLC. (...) There is no way you will convince me that MegaBloks or many other competitors HAVEN'T already seen those pics, not if their spies (...) (25 years ago, 8-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Richard Franks
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| | | | | | | | | | | (...) I read somewhere that the brain makes a decision on something then rationalises afterwards, that a whole part of the brain is dedicated to thinking up excuses to arbitarily made decisions. But maybe someone more knowledgable can help me on (...) (25 years ago, 8-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Tom Stangl
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Actually, NO, with the available evidence (i.e. NOTHING said from TLC so far), it is correct, not wishful thinking. If I would have seen ONE message in here or on lego.com asking that the pics be removed from sites, then I would agree with you that (...) (25 years ago, 8-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Richard Franks
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) A lack of evidence is not evidence in itself. One piece of evidence that we do have is that they would sack an employee for doing what we have done. Doesn't that suggest that "it does matter" to you? Why should TLC dignify this with a (...) (25 years ago, 8-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Tom Stangl
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Believe it or not, I'm taking the side of TLC here, and you guys aren't. At least in one way. "You guys" are basically assuming TLC is a bunch of clueless morons that haven't seen the furor over this, or have seen it, and are too clueless to know (...) (25 years ago, 8-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Mike Stanley
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) Or they don't care. Which is what I think. And I'm more than willing to interpret silence that way, just like we've interpreted their silence on other issues that way. (25 years ago, 8-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) It sort-of is. (...) We have no such evidence. (...) It's not obvious to me. (...) here you seem to be asserting that TLG has actually fired employees for this. Who? When? What are you talking about? I agree with Mike three notes down. Chris (25 years ago, 8-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Richard Franks
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) In some very defined circumstances, it is suspicious - "The company accounts are missing" etc. But that wouldn't be evidence that the company had been up to fraudulent behaviour. This "evidence" is of the sort: "Mummy hasn't told me not to (...) (25 years ago, 9-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Selçuk Göre
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | Richard Franks <spontificus@__nospa...yahoo.com> wrote in message news:FMG645.9Ct@lugnet.com... (...) in (...) Oh, Please...No more stretches OK? It's not that sort of evidence, even there is not just a bit of similarity. If your brother would have (...) (25 years ago, 9-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Richard Franks
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) Agreed, so we're still waiting for the first slap? It probably isn't a perfect analogy, it wasn't meant to be - the original point was that silence isn't always evidence. (...) Agreed, I don't think what Huw did was more wrong than that. What (...) (25 years ago, 9-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Lawrence Wilkes
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) In lugnet.technic, Michael Edwards writes: (...) Looks like someone got the first slap! regards lawrence (25 years ago, 9-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | | | | | | (...) We have ONE point of reasonably solid information in this subject: We have a statement from a TLC employee that they could be FIRED for showing a consumer the retailers catalog. Well ok, we have two pieces of evidence. The only way TLC has (...) (25 years ago, 8-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Gary R. Istok
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Wow Frank, Well stated! I can't argue with that. One other item of discussion (I'm not sure this was answered, since I'm having server problems, and haven't read all of the lugnet.general posts), Ben had a 1993 Dealer Catalog. Should/can/may he post (...) (25 years ago, 8-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Selçuk Göre
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | Gary Istok <gistok@umich.edu> wrote in message news:384E74BE.A847E7...ich.edu... (...) having server (...) 1993 Dealer (...) LEGO Dealer (...) hoot about (...) the USA since (...) Am I correct (...) Brickshelf has several old vendors' catalog (...) (25 years ago, 8-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Mike Stanley
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) NO. We have a report from another person that a Lego employee said that. I've been told lots of things by store employees, and trust me, you shouldn't _always_ believe what someone making low money to stand on their feet all days says when it (...) (25 years ago, 8-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Tom Stangl
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) However, if the rep doesn't preface some tidbit with "don't spread this around", or similar, I try to remember to ASK. I have kept things in confidence many times when ASKED. It's common courtesy. I'm waiting for TLC to ASK or TELL us what (...) (25 years ago, 8-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Jasper Janssen
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) Regardless, UNaltered REPRODUCTION and DISSEMINATION of this IMPORTANT Information is ENCOURAGED. Jasper (25 years ago, 9-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Todd Lehman
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) Dissemination of certain types of information, however, is not encouraged here. For example, leaks or other information which intrudes on the rights of the owner. Maybe that's OK other places, but it's not OK here. In fact, it's specifically (...) (25 years ago, 10-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Christopher Lannan
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) Just to clarify- say I get a retailers catalogue like Huw did, and I want to share it with fellow Lugneteers. Is it okay with the T&C if I post stating that I have it, and that they can look at it on my page, as long as I don't actually post (...) (25 years ago, 10-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Todd Lehman
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) Yes, I believe that would be technically OK with T&C. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that it would be morally right, or legally right, from TLC's or anyone else's perspective, or that you wouldn't be an instant criticism- magnet. You (...) (25 years ago, 10-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun, lugnet.admin.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) That takes me back.. does that guy still post his orbital mindcontrol laser stuff (or whatever it is, I can't recall, but it's some of the most convoluted conspiracy theory stuff I've ever seen) ? (25 years ago, 10-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Jasper Janssen
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) Nah, McElwaine is long gone, just like Neutronium and most of the other net.legends. There've been some revivals of McElwaine, and a lot more of neutronium recently (likely by a 'bot for the latter), but it is highly doubtful any of them are (...) (25 years ago, 10-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Tom Stangl
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| | | | | | | | | | | | (...) I'm pretty sure Lugnet and Brickshelf DO still exist because of this. However.... (...) That would be a MAJOR shift from their current Fair Use Policy, and I'd expect them to post such a change on lego.com and put a pointer to it. And until (...) (25 years ago, 8-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | Pastel = Profit (Was Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire?) —Richard Franks
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| | | | | | | | | | | | (...) What do you think they will say, bearing in mind that these are secret, not for public use documents? Hearing the phrase "pastel = profit" from a 1993 retailers catalogue may seem funny or harmless. But it makes me dislike the girly LEGO even (...) (25 years ago, 9-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Pastel = Profit (Was Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire?) —Mike Stanley
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) And I ask YOU honestly, isn't the fact that TLC hasn't said anything about other things on other fan sites taken as implicit permission to do them? What's the difference? I'll be happy to eat crow if some TLC official makes a statement about (...) (25 years ago, 9-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Pastel = Profit (Was Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire?) —Richard Franks
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) In my opinion? Certainly not! Grudging permission, tolerance maybe. But then it is not the charter of pause and brickshelf to contain company secrets. I really don't understand this "They haven't told us not to, so it's okay" attitude! (...) (...) (25 years ago, 9-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Pastel = Profit (Was Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire?) —Tom Stangl
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) You don't? OK, we'd better shut down Brickshelf and Lugnet. RIGHT NOW. Because Richard says that since TLC hasn't told us not to, it's NOT OK, so all of Kevin/Todd's scans have to go. Take them down. Richard says so. If you can't see the (...) (25 years ago, 9-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Pastel = Profit (Was Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire?) —Todd Lehman
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) You sound pretty sure of that. --Todd (25 years ago, 9-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Pastel = Profit (Was Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire?) —Tom Stangl
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | OK, let me clarify - at NO time publicly has TLC stated anything about Brickshelf, and Kevin has repeatedly mentioned he hasn't heard from TLC. Yet by Richard's Holy Rule, since TLC has said nothing about posting instruction scans, and posting them (...) (25 years ago, 9-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Pastel = Profit (Was Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire?) —Mike Stanley
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) Right, not much. And as much as I trust Todd, and I do, I don't accept his opinion as gospel truth about all things related to how TLC/G feels about all issues. Certainly not based on the few haizy references I've seen to "private" (...) (25 years ago, 9-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Pastel = Profit (Was Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire?) —Todd Lehman
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) Inasmuch as I dislike "tooting the horn," I also try not to keep important things like that secret, assuming I am able to say one way or the other. In October of 1997, for example, I did mention that Suzanne and I had had a meeting with two (...) (25 years ago, 9-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Pastel = Profit (Was Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire?) —Todd Lehman
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) (Just re-reading what I just wrote) Bad wording -- I didn't mean that to sound like a back-handed slap. And I don't mean to demean educated guesses. I just meant that maybe the tone of this message, (URL) a bit strong, given the known facts. (...) (25 years ago, 9-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Pastel = Profit (Was Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire?) —Todd Lehman
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) Whoops, darn it, I did it again. I meant this message, (URL) #2743. Sorry. --Todd (25 years ago, 9-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Pastel = Profit (Was Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire?) —Tom Stangl
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Well, the other side of the coin is that YOU, and ONLY you, knew the full details of what they did/did not say was OK. All we have to go on is the Fair Use Policy posted on lego.com. We (the unwashed <g>) won't know any better unless the Policy is (...) (25 years ago, 9-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Pastel = Profit (Was Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire?) —Mike Stanley
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) Well, if he's wrong then say so. I distinctly remember Kevin on numerous occasions mentioning something to the extent of "well, the less attention we make TLG pay to the scans site the better" - basically, like in the case of the loser selling (...) (25 years ago, 9-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Pastel = Profit (Was Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire?) —Mike Stanley
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) You call them company secrets. Company secrets that are so important that they're stored in catalogs that many retailers leave on the shelf for customers to see. The thought that, 2 weeks before these hit the shelves (or 2 months, or whatever) (...) (25 years ago, 9-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Pastel = Profit (Was Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire?) —Steve Bliss
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) It comes from lawyers and politicians and owners of corporations. If they don't make a statement a subject, then they've neither blessed it or cursed it, and they have an open field to react to later developments. Steve (25 years ago, 9-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Pastel = Profit (Was Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire?) —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) Does this imply that your steamy entrails are not nice? Or that your entrails are not nice and steamy? ;-) (for the clue impared) Chris (25 years ago, 10-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Pastel = Profit (Was Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire?) —Tom Stangl
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| | | | | | | | | | | | (...) Oh? - PROVE IT! Quit shoving it down our throats as gospel, and PROVE IT. SHOW us the documents proving these are "secret". Are they limited production/circulation? Yes. Secret? PROVE IT. (...) Um, when did ANYTHING BUT the pics ever creep (...) (25 years ago, 9-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Pastel = Profit (Was Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire?) —Mike Stanley
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) As much as this thread has stirred up some strong feelings (no real anger on my part - hope there isn't on most other peoples') this made me laugh and laugh and laugh. Pssst, hurry up... while they're still quiet. Bring up the cans and the (...) (25 years ago, 9-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Pastel = Profit (Was Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire?) —Richard Franks
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) By the same token, I could ask you to prove that they aren't secret. But with the limited information that we have that would be fruitless. We are in .debate, so I see nothing wrong with trying to discuss this intelligently. My view is that (...) (25 years ago, 9-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Pastel = Profit (Was Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire?) —Tom Stangl
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) Only if you make it an issue. Huw never even mentioned having that info. (...) I'm disturbed that you are disturbed about such a silly marketing slogan. Did you ever think TLC was NOT a for-profit company? (...) Sorry, I guess I should have (...) (25 years ago, 9-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Pastel = Profit (Was Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire?)) —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) What do you mean? There is some evidence for both sides. They do go to the effort to restrict the general consumer flow of information - for whatever reason - so obviously they care at least a little. There are many cited examples of retail (...) (25 years ago, 10-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Pastel = Profit (Was Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire?)) —Todd Lehman
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) Both and also legal. --Todd (25 years ago, 10-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Pastel = Profit (Was Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire?)) —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) I want to understand your point here better. The above reads to me that you only respect property rights when you have willingly entered into a contract with someone. Is this really true? Do I need to sign a contract with you before I let you (...) (25 years ago, 10-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Pastel = Profit (Was Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire?)) —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) Hi Frank, Actually, the reasoning for why your property is safe while I'm in your apartment falls under both my contract and aesthetics categories. When I refer to contracts in a broad sense I don't just mean reams of legalese with hundreds of (...) (25 years ago, 10-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Pastel = Profit (Was Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire?)) —Frank Filz
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) One interesting question is how does one determine that someone has accepted an implied or understood contract? (...) Ok, now how are TLC's intellectual property rights different from the property rights of me for my LEGO collection? Or is the (...) (25 years ago, 10-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Pastel = Profit (Was Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire?)) —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) Sometimes that's hard. Misunderstandings and differing expectations happen all the time and largely it's because of different world-view which is kind of the same as having accepted different implied contracts. I (sort of) keep track of what (...) (25 years ago, 10-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Pastel = Profit (Was Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire?)) —Todd Lehman
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) I'm curious: Do you consider intellectual property rights to be a subset of property rights, or something totally separate? The original issue, I think, was at least partially about intellectual property rights. --Todd (25 years ago, 10-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Pastel = Profit (Was Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire?) —Mark Koesel
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | "Tom Stangl, VFAQman" <talonts@vfaq.com> wrote in message news:384F3A51.4FCDDF...faq.com... (...) scans" (...) TLC (...) not for (...) SHOW us (...) Tom, I mean absolutely no offense here (and I've already brought this up in response to another (...) (25 years ago, 9-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Pastel = Profit (Was Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire?) —Todd Lehman
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| | | | | | | | | | | | (...) LEGO made an official statement today: (URL) (25 years ago, 17-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Pastel = Profit (Was Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire?) —Tom Stangl
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Yep, and I'll respect that statement. But I certainly WON'T agree with it. Putting pics on an open website and then saying "hey don't look at those" is NOT the way to run a website. Don't put them there in the first place, if you don't want them (...) (25 years ago, 17-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Pastel = Profit (Was Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire?) —Dave Schuler
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) "If you don't want me to drive away in your car, don't leave it in the parking lot." 8^) All in fun, Dave! (25 years ago, 17-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Pastel = Profit (Was Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire?) —Jasper Janssen
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) ...unlocked, with the keys in the contact, pink slip on the dashboard, and with a sign in the window saying in large, friendly letters "This car is free to anyone who wants it". Just to complete the analogy, and all. Jasper (25 years ago, 18-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Pastel = Profit (Was Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire?) —James Brown
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | (...) Well, it was apparantly an error on somebody's part, because the pics and links are gone. Honest curiosity, how does that affect the 'public info' thing? I mean, I agree with most of the people around here, that if information is on the public (...) (25 years ago, 17-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: Pastel = Profit (Was Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire?) —Scott Arthur
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Tom Stangl, VFAQman wrote in message <385AA831.A7538733@vfaq.com>... (...) is NOT (...) don't (...) Yes. You are 100% right. The problem is 100% with TLG. Somebody there is pretty naive I think. Crazy way to run a company - I have to use get past 2 (...) (25 years ago, 18-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Mike Stanley
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) Which we won't, which ought to (at the VERY least) lead some to believe that TLC is no more concerned about this than they are brickshelf.com Am *I* comparing the two? No. But I think a nice healthy dose of silence on this current issue should (...) (25 years ago, 8-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Jeff Thompson
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| | | | | | | | | (...) No. (...) Just because something can be done, doesn't mean it has to be done. Just because something will probably happen no matter what doesn't always mean that it must be enthusiastically endorsed or that it's not worth struggling against. (...) (25 years ago, 8-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Scott Edward Sanburn
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| | | | | | | | | | | Reading some of the posts, they are, for the most part, valid arguments, but I don't want to be in a position of such debate. I think the sets have already arrived at TRU, based on what I found out yesterday. How long are we going to wait, really? (...) (25 years ago, 8-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Todd Lehman
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| | | | | | | | | | | | (...) Several of "the sets" in the 2000 retailers catalogs are not in the 2000 consumer catalog and won't even be released until mid-year (I think it said July). So it's not true that "the sets" are already arriving at TRU. Some, maybe even most, (...) (25 years ago, 9-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Mike Stanley
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) NO. Huw respected Suz's request. There's a big difference. "They" havent' made any such request that I'm aware of. Or if they have, it's been a more general request that several other major fan sites violate every day. (...) If I thought (...) (25 years ago, 8-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —James Simpson
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| | | | | | | | (...) Just to make my voice heard: I agree with you Todd. Our actions should be motivated not by what we can do, but by what is right and by what is morally responsible. Legality is not necessarily a litmus test for legitimacy; I can think of, oh, (...) (25 years ago, 8-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Christopher Lannan
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| | | | | | | (...) I don't know if I see it as an issue. I was off the net all weekend, and looking on Monday AM I was mostly thinking "darn it- I missed them." I wonder how many of the people that were for taking the pictures down looked at them? Did anyone (...) (25 years ago, 7-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Lawrence Wilkes
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| | | | | | | (...) Wasnt meant to be confrontational, just an observation on the difficulties of trying to put the wraps on something one it has escaped onto the Internet. Trying to remove the pictures and the messages is difficult once they are in everyones (...) (25 years ago, 7-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —James Brown
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| | | | | | | | (...) I probably over-reacted. I do that sometimes. James (URL) (25 years ago, 7-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Christopher Lannan
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| | | | | | | | | (...) Especially a newsgroup that ends in "debate" (...) Not really. I hope most of us don't have a problem with someone telling us they think our ideas and arguments are hogwash from time to time. I sometimes like to throw out a radical opinion (...) (25 years ago, 7-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Larry Pieniazek
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) True. Very True. Now, what point were you trying to make? You haven't gone overboard, I don't think... (25 years ago, 7-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Jasper Janssen
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| | | | | | | | | | | (...) Except on those rare occasions things get out of hand? (...) Moving jobs _again_? Jasper (25 years ago, 8-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Richard Franks
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| | | | | | | | | | | | (...) Agreed! If such an absurd notion(1) were to be true, then surely the "Wild West" would be known as the "Exceptionally polite West where no-one would ever dream of raising their voices or frowning at another." Richard (1) This is of course my (...) (25 years ago, 8-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | | | | | | (...) My understanding of those times is that most people were polite and steered clear of annoying people. I also understand that gunfights were insanely uncommon. Not at all like motion picture portrayal. (I wasn't born in the states either - (...) (25 years ago, 8-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Richard Franks
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| | | | | | | | | | | | (...) You're probably right - my understanding of the times having come from motion picture portrayal :) (1) I would argue that politeness could come from *communities* having to get on to survive in a hostile new environment. As very few of us seem (...) (25 years ago, 9-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | back to guns (was: Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire?) —Christopher L. Weeks
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| | | | | | | | | | | | (...) Right. I wouldn't be an advocate of gun dispersement if my best argument was based on making people polite. Chris (25 years ago, 10-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Christopher Lannan
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| | | | | | | | | | (...) think.\ Chris (25 years ago, 8-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Shiri Dori
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| | | | | | | | (...) It's easy to do on the web - you can't see other people's expressions or hear their tone of voice (joking, sarcastic, serious, etc.) -Shiri (25 years ago, 8-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Todd Lehman
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| | | | | | (...) I agree, and it's pretty damn sad to watch, IMHO. I *really* wish now that I'd waited just a little longer, back when I added a couple SW pix to the DB after rebelscum.com put them up. It wasn't very much longer after that before legitimate (...) (25 years ago, 8-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Todd Lehman
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| | | | | | (...) (leaping out of bed to follow-up on this) Wait a second. The pictures that went in *were* legitimate consumer catalog photos -- from the sheet catalog/brochure someone got in a copy of a Technic set at a store in the UK, and from one other. (...) (25 years ago, 8-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.admin.database)
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| | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Todd Lehman
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| | | | | (...) Huw made a mistake, but he also had the intelligence to realize this and the moral integrity to do something about it. I don't think you're going to see many requests from people asking other sites to remove the scans because at this point (...) (25 years ago, 8-Dec-99, to lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Paul Davidson
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| | | | | | | Are you so convinced that it's such a horrible thing to post those scans? I threw them up a little while ago because I'm trying to make some die-hard lego fans happy, and those tiny little pictures give us an adequate idea of the lineup with no real (...) (25 years ago, 8-Dec-99, to lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Todd Lehman
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| | | | | | | | (...) In my opinion, yes. --Todd (25 years ago, 8-Dec-99, to lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Paul Davidson
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| | | | | | | | At least I have decent, self-respecting people like yourself to tell me that. :) -- Paul Davidson Todd Lehman <lehman@javanet.com> wrote in message news:FMEw6J.10L@lugnet.com... (...) scans? (...) die-hard (...) of (...) (25 years ago, 8-Dec-99, to lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Selçuk Göre
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| | | | | | | ----- Original Message ----- From: Todd Lehman <lehman@javanet.com> (...) This is not fair. Nobody sure that it was a mistake rigt now. It's been suggested that it MIGHT BE a mistake, since nobody knows anything about the (consistent) policy of TLC (...) (25 years ago, 8-Dec-99, to lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Todd Lehman
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| | | | | | | | (...) Well, let's get something straight here first: 1. TLC's policy about vendor/retailer catalogs is only half of the issue. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that something known as a "retailer catalog" (which consumers almost *never* see) (...) (25 years ago, 8-Dec-99, to lugnet.general, lugnet.admin.database)
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| | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Richard Marchetti
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| | | | | | (...) May the gods love you, Todd. Do you have any idea how such a statement reads? From my view, very moralizing and very much adopting a parental voice. I'm sure you intend for this to be complimentary, but its quite backhanded at best. Basically, (...) (25 years ago, 8-Dec-99, to lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Tom Stangl
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| | | | | | Um, yeah, what he said (i.e., a METOO post). Todd - some of your posts come across as you "handing the message down from on high". I know you don't mean to seem that way, but you are coming across that way in some of your posts. Let's just lay off (...) (25 years ago, 8-Dec-99, to lugnet.general)
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| | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Jasper Janssen
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| | | | | (...) We've heard of it here (.nl) as well.. but really, it's not banned. It's just not pop music. I mean, really.. Playlist: Metallica, _Unforgiven II_, Cliff Richard, _The Our Father to the tune of Auld Lang Syne[1]_, Marilyn manson, _Kill Them (...) (25 years ago, 9-Dec-99, to lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —John Neal
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| | | | | | | (...) The gist, I believe is, *take their money* then kill them all. Don't be fooled by the make-up and schtick-- another seedy capitalist preying on impressionable [1] teenagers. [1] Okay, okay..."moronic" -John (25 years ago, 9-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Steve Bliss
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| | | | | | (...) Wasn't that a song by Yazoo? Steve "Mr. Eighties" Bliss (25 years ago, 9-Dec-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Jasper Janssen
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| | | | | (...) Why don't we all get ourselves to .off-topic.debate, and talk about a nice uncontroversial subject like gun control, or mormons, or email spam, or something? Jasper (25 years ago, 9-Dec-99, to lugnet.general)
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| | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Lawrence Wilkes
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| | | | (...) Guess this will answer a lot of questions in the retailer catalog scans debate then! regards lawrence (25 years ago, 9-Dec-99, to lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Kevin Loch
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| | | | | I think the key word was "secret" information. I doubt there is a problem with scans containing only public information. KL (...) (25 years ago, 9-Dec-99, to lugnet.general)
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| | | | | | Re: 2000 Dealer catalogue Removal Request Backfire? —Michael Edwards
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| | | | I have reloaded the images now The problem was same thing else. Enjoy -- Michael Please reply on medwards@ukonline.co.uk Home of the UK Technic Club Magazine Web site: www.technic-uk.co.uk (URL) to be updated, soon to be good 212 models and going up (...) (25 years ago, 10-Dec-99, to lugnet.general)
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