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the following is a question and answer excerpt from a debate on another website. The questions seem to me very clear and logical. The answers, however, do not; sometimes they seem rather desperate. I find it very interesting that the person (...) (23 years ago, 3-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I would not necessarily assume you were anti-gay, although I might assume your stance is based primarily on belief rather than logic. (...) Well, here's the thing that gets me. I've never seen anyone give a convincing reason why anyone would (...) (23 years ago, 3-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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What does it really matter? If people are happy that is a good thing. There was recently a "gay census" in the UK. It has been criticised for focusing on people who are "out", but it is still the most detailed revue of gay life in the UK. The main (...) (23 years ago, 3-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) website. 'Cause we just don't have enough trouble of our own? ;-) (...) How can a question be logical or not? (...) I think you are looking through a tinted lense. It seems like a pretty evenhanded treatment to me. (...) You and this hound (...) (23 years ago, 3-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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As Chris alluded to, homosexuality falls under the realm of behavioral genetics and is probably an epigenetic process (e.g. acting above the level of the genes). Epigenetic processes are incredibally difficult to tease apart and complex ones such as (...) (23 years ago, 3-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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As far as i am concerned, the whole deate is moot. Not only that, but it is dangerous because of its potential impact on society. Also, the way the various quotes describe homosexuality leave the issue somewhat clouded. As i see it: - (...) (23 years ago, 3-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Christopher L. Weeks writes: **snip of lots of sensible things** I hate to post a "me too," but Chris and I are so seldom in 100% agreement that I thought it was worth mentioning. Bravo to you, Chris, for a (...) (23 years ago, 3-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) That's why they should all be in Burkhas. ;-) Chris (23 years ago, 3-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Why would you advise this? It's obviously a silly thing. I mean, it's cute and aparently I'm 35% gay, but I don't think it has any bearing on anything. I don't get your need to consult...what's the deal with that? Chris (23 years ago, 3-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I did not mean to imply it would change your sexulaity. :) (...) I'm one of those cynics that thinks big homophobes have something to hide... :) Fun aside, the test illustrates a simple, but often overlooked, point: there are more than three (...) (23 years ago, 3-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Gotta agree with Chris - the desperation seems a bit more on the other side. (...) A propensity for "gayness" may be in someone's gene, it may not. I don't discount it, but I don't accept it out of hand, either. I've been more of the opinion (...) (23 years ago, 3-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Gay-o-meter (Was Re: gay by birth vs. gay by choice... who cares!)
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(...) meter told me to "Loosen up mate, Women like softer edges" or some such. Which is ironic, since most women consider me rather sensitive. I dunno. ~Grand Admiral Muffin Head (23 years ago, 3-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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This seems like as good a place as any to jump in. The research i've done shows that a gay scientist found evidence of a gay gene, but no one has been able to duplicate his results. In scientific research, that is a very serious thing. It may have (...) (23 years ago, 3-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) You are correct that independent corroboration is vital in verifying scientific observation. It is to the serious discredit of the "gay scientist" that no one else has made an equivalent finding, so we are better off suspending final judgment (...) (23 years ago, 3-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) assumptions (IE 'are you still beating your wife' type questions)... and given that you HAD to answer ALL the questions, it was rather tricky to figure out what the heck to answer. Would I rather be/meet my favorite footballer? (I don't have a (...) (23 years ago, 3-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Allegedly two studies duplicated the original results (one currently unpublished). Another did not produce the same results. The sample size was small in all cases - I wouldn't take claims either way as conclusive. (...) What does this have to (...) (23 years ago, 3-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) How many attempts have been made to corroborate his findings? (...) I don't know about "very serious" such findings are a part of the scientific process. (...) Sorry? How would that have been better? (...) Why? (...) Gosh. Like what? (...) So (...) (23 years ago, 3-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Quietly coercing other scientists to duplicate research sounds like a more serious issue then a lack of repetability. I'm not sure if I'm parsing your meaning of your last sentence correctly but putting out an idea and seeing if others get the (...) (23 years ago, 3-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) ? Cold fusion anyone? I'm afraid I don't know enough about it, but what methods were used by this scientist who found them? Have others tried his same methods? Or their own? How long do they take? How consistant are they? How many cases were (...) (23 years ago, 3-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) A number of people duplicated the results by following the same method as the original claimants - but basically those were non-critical attempts (the methods themselves were not initially questioned). I asked my father-in-law at the time why (...) (23 years ago, 3-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) [snip] (...) Interesting. It amuses me to wonder though if the existence of a "gay gene" would be ammunition for the creation scientists to use against the darwinians? Cheers Richie (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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in article Gns8LM.n0v@lugnet.com, Kirby Warden at inourimage@msn.com wrote on 12/3/01 1:24 PM: (...) Why? If it were to be proven that the tendency to commit adultery or fornication were genetically programmed (not that hard to imagine, really), (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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in article Gns8LM.n0v@lugnet.com, Kirby Warden at inourimage@msn.com wrote on 12/3/01 1:24 PM: (...) A ridiculous notion. If you are straight, are you straight "by choice?" Do you somehow feel you would be or are free to choose otherwise? And why (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Why not? Somewhere else in this thread someone posted that more lesbians think their sexuality is "by choice" than not. Maybe your genes, rather than specifying absolute sexuality, specify a leaning one way or another - it's still your choice (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) It is my understanding that the human brain can "change" according to a person's mental development. If so, then study on the brain to find a common link to homosexuality would be suspect. (...) Handed-ness does not promote a lively-hood that (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) In my research I found that there were indeed a total of three tests that showed positive results, unfortuanately all three tests were performed by the same scientist. (...) If science can prove that a gay gene exists, then the Bible has also (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Are you implying that possibly apart from the gay gene question, the 4,000 years of religious doctrine is _correct_? Should someone prove the "gay gene" theory, then we would _finally_ have one case of the doctrine being incorrect? Whatever do (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Gay-o-meter (Was Re: gay by birth vs. gay by choice... who cares!)
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(...) 19%. Dunno exactly what it means, except that I'm who I am. It's frightening considering that I've always felt more "in touch" with the proverbial feminine side than most of my peers. Weeeeird. Maybe it's random? LFB (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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(...) he has done it three times himself and succeeded while at least two others have tried and failed. (...) When it comes to researhing genetic behavior, especially one of controversy, care should be taken not to give false hope, or insight (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Your second example is what I was aiming for. (...) Not sure if you're actually agreeing with me or not, but thanks for not attacking me. (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Perhaps by US standards! I did the test the same way as you and got 35-41% (...) Like I said Dave, it is just a bit of fun. I think it would be even poorer if the questions were more pertinent. This way it is just a bit of fun. :) Scott A (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) A simple internet search for "gay gene" will give you all the information you're asking for plus some. (...) The Holy Bible directly refers to homosexuality more than once as a sin. (...) I wish your example is how things actually work. (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Most Christians believe the Bible is indeed correct. Should someone prove (...) I'm not sure how this question is intended to be read. (...) Sorry, everywhere else I've specified Christian religion, since I am most familiar with it. Also, i'm (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Although I'm far from being a homophobe, I too would have to assert that heterosexuality would have to be our 'default' setting just for needs of basic continuation of the species. Wasn;t there a hypothesis at one time that homosexuality ws (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Hmm... that leads me to think that he might be baising his data someway (willingly or unwillingly). (...) care to share some of this research? i'm curious, I'm not trying to bait you. -chris (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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in article GnszKI.5KJ@lugnet.com, Ross Crawford at rcrawford@csi.com wrote on 12/3/01 11:07 PM: (...) Please, can't you think any better than that? It is the FACT that heteros find the opposite sex attractive that MAKES us heteros, not some "choice" (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) And? What has to change? What part no longer works? I mean, what if we discover the "cheat-on-your-wife" gene or the "stealing" gene? What if we find out that people are genetically predisposed to behaving in this way? Are they any less "evil" (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Could you cite examples for those of us who don't know to which passages you're referring? Thanks. ~Grand Admiral Muffin Head (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) It is neither here nor there. If there is a gay gene, I don't see what the Bible has to do with it. That is a problem for the literalists to wrestle with. (...) No, not at all, except that you seem to interpret the possiblity of a gay gene (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I'm really curious, because I just don't see how. Does the Bible say "Gayness is by choice"? Does it say "Gayness is not genetic"? Just because someone is genetically predisposed to sinning, does that absolve them from the guilt of the sin? (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Gay-o-meter (Was Re: gay by birth vs. gay by choice... who cares!)
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Mr L F Braun wrote in message ... (...) I'm gay and it gave me 38%. Guess I'll have to turn in my card :-) Kevin ---...--- NEW Tank Engine custom train set: (URL) Annual SYSTEM Creativity Contest: (URL) Lego Kits & Custom models: (URL) Lego parts (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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(...) I don't think it's a question of circular definition-- it's a question of "why". Why am I attracted to women and not men? Why are heterosexuals attracted to the opposite sex? Not, "why am I a heterosexual?". IE, if gayness is a choice, is (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I wonder - does "most frequently obsevered" (or perhaps most frequently admitted to?) equate to "default" ? Jennifer (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) First of all, IMO, Channel 4 holds no credibility anyway, so a test by them is more luducrious. Having taken the test, I found it very interesting, and self defeating, that you must chose your sexual orientation prior to taking the test. I (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Gay-o-meter (Was Re: gay by birth vs. gay by choice... who cares!)
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(...) That just means you're a closet heterosexual. Dave! (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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(...) What muddies the issue here is that you have gays who are so at birth (IMO), and then you have the *lifestyle choice* gays, who, for one reason or another, choose to experiment with their sexuality with the same sex (so-called bisexuals). I (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Doesn't it depend on what the demands are? What if all they want is a fair shot? (...) Probably the same number that are currently labelled criminal for disliking negros. None. You are free to dislike whomever you want. The problem is when you (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Stop making assumptions. I never once stated that I am Christian. I have some depth of knowledge concerning the Holy Bible but that does not make me Christian. I have analyzed the theory of gay-at-birth and dispute it. I have analyzed many of (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Why are you attempting to debate the very nature of Christianity. It has a written instruction perceived to be influenced by a devine entity and has power via the individuals who believe it. Christians are just as free as anybody to believe what (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Maybe you're not understanding the question... I'll try and ask again. What difference does it make whether or not we're genetically predisposed to prefer sin? If I have an urge to steal, to murder, to not worship God, or to be gay, what (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) From the Holy Bible: Leviticus 20:13 1Corinthians 6:9 Romans 1:26-27 While reading these scriptures, it is important to understand the context that they are being used in. Homosexuality is described as a practice, as are incest, beastiality, (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Just asking-- what problem is created for literalists? How does the literal Bible (Old or New Testament) contradict the existance of a gay gene? I honestly can't think of anything that WOULD contradict unless it said somewhere that "God won't (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Yes, if any of your above examples become reality, then the Bible is thereby proven falacious. The Bible is an instruction for Christianity and includes a code of conduct. The Bible should not be used as a source of social reform, but as a (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) And I never once said that you were. But at the same time I note you don't deny it. You have adopted a stance similiar to that of many fundamentalist Christians, and have brought the Bible into this discussion. It seems to me that you don't (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) No problem. I found it interesting in my research that many *Christians* don't have a clue where to find these scriptures. I had to resort to an 1700+ page index and a dictionary to find them. Most Christians readily say something to the (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them." Leviticus 18:22 "Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind: it is (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Idunno - as I said, that's their problem to wrestle with (I am not a literalist). I'm tempted to say the problem is one of their own making, but I am hardly enough of a Bible scholar to actually say that with any certainty. I don't know of (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Why? What part is falacious? I presume that you mean to say that God would create humans with equal desires towards sinning. Hence, if it were found that SOME people had MORE desire to sin based on their genetics, that it would prove that God (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Nah. I would say that we still have the ability to overcome the desire given to us by the gene. Just like I might have the urge to cheat on my wife. Genetic? Of course! I mean, that waitress is hot! Why do I think so? Instinct! But I still (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) "For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him." This has what to do with homosexuality? (...) "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Clearly, "4,000 yrs. of religious doctrine" must include more than just the Bible. The Bible, as we know it today, was not available 4,000 years ago. Take an example. According to Jewish belief, Jesus is not the son of God. According to (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I was only speaking from a hypothetical standpoint and not voicing my own opinion. My viewpoint is the same as yours, but from the Catholic standpoint, you just commited a sin (the thought is the same as the action), so what does that imply? (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) The Bible simply IS part of the discussion. Christians and homosexuals alike have argued it to such a degree that it is difficult have a discussion of only homosexuality. For what it's worth, when I began debating gay-by-birth elsewhere, a (...) (23 years ago, 4-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Essentially, it implies that similarly being homosexual is the same as being heterosexual :) IE if I sinned by thinking that the waitress is hot, I sin equally by thinking that a waiter is hot. Again, as long as I know not to act on my (...) (23 years ago, 5-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) No, it does doesn't. Pattern does usually follow process though. It would have to be the default(1). The only ones who matter(2) in evolution are the ones who reproduce, so therefore how can it be that we should incapable of reproduction? (...) (23 years ago, 5-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: gay by birth vs. gay by choice... who cares!
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(...) Is the first on cited on this page? (first result returned by google) (URL) interesting... -chris (23 years ago, 5-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) But genes that inhibit reproduction _can_ be inherited, recessively. Cf cystic fibrosis (without treatment sufferers die before puberty). (...) Try a little google search for "homosexual bonobo". My thoughts, such as they are: I think the "why (...) (23 years ago, 5-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) True. That would not fit the requirements of a default setting for the gay-gene though. (...) I do know of the cases. I'm looking for a different pattern, not sure how to fit it into words. (...) Did humans evolve in an environment that would (...) (23 years ago, 5-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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in article Gnty9D.Fty@lugnet.com, David Eaton at deaton@intdata.com wrote on 12/4/01 11:36 AM: (...) Which is what Catholicism DOES in fact say. Rob (23 years ago, 5-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I'm not sure I follow you -- why couldn't a gay-gene be maintained in a heterozygote sub-population, like many other recessive traits? (...) Well give it a go!! But given the lack of extant ancestor species, apes seem like the best bet for (...) (23 years ago, 5-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I'm not sure where to go with this part of the debate without actually veering into a no-holds-barred religious debate. The idea of sin is based on faith, that immorality is a wrong against a god. As such, sin could never be proven or (...) (23 years ago, 5-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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in article Gntz4y.IMp@lugnet.com, David Eaton at deaton@intdata.com wrote on 12/4/01 11:55 AM: (...) Sorry; I didn't read your too well, and I shouldn't have shot me mouth off. I suspect the attraction is largely chemical/hormonal, and that is (...) (23 years ago, 5-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Dang, I can't believe I did that, it's supposed to be Leviticus 20:13, I must've looked ahead on my list (It seemed appropriate to make a list). (...) I'm not sure this is really an issue, just an additional verse that shows God's view of how (...) (23 years ago, 5-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) The part that says sin can be overcome and must be repented of for acceptance into the kingdom, unfortunately some in the gay community want Christianity, but not the rules. (...) Having a genetic behavior suggests that the behavior cannot be (...) (23 years ago, 5-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(don't mind me, I'm just a teenager who doesn't really know alot) I've been reading through this whole debate with interest, I know a girl who is gay and she says she knew ever since puberty (However she still hasn't told her parents [which makes me (...) (23 years ago, 5-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Matthew 5:21- here Jesus speaks about "thought sins", whereby a person dwells upon a sin, knowing it's nature, with the intent of "pretending" to to act it out. Specifically the example of adultery, whereby even looking upon a woman lustfully (...) (23 years ago, 5-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: gay by birth vs. gay by choice
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(...) Actually, simply acknowledging that something is beauiful would not be a sin, however, thinking, "...wow, what a bod, I just gotta have it..." is just as bad as actually "getting it". (...) (23 years ago, 5-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: gay by birth vs. gay by choice
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Dave Low writes: [snip] (...) Asked and answered ;-) (...) 'Cause then we'd be giving birth in winter, which wouldn't be real wise :-) Cheers Richie (23 years ago, 5-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: gay by birth vs. gay by choice
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I am finding that making so many individual replies is somewhat taxing. I seem to be saying too much in some posts, and not enough in others. Here, I should have distinctly referred to Christianity, rather than religion in general. Other religions (...) (23 years ago, 5-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: gay by birth vs. gay by choice
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(...) That'd be great, except that the demands are not that simple. I really wish I new where to look for the lawsuits, I've heard about them on the news and from Christians, but I've never been able to read about them. (...) It is no longer that (...) (23 years ago, 5-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: gay by birth vs. gay by choice
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(...) Ok so far I guess-- although we're assuming some stuff about sin and morality, but there's a chance we won't need to get into it very far... (...) Ah. So your thought is that someone who is genetically predisposed to be gay is someone who (...) (23 years ago, 5-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: gay by birth vs. gay by choice
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(...) Well two things-- 1st off, this gets into sketchy territory. What is want? How do we define it? And, further, is it really *as* bad as the act? Hence, if we want it, why not just go do it since it's just as bad? Is there any positive side to (...) (23 years ago, 5-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: gay by birth vs. gay by choice
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(...) According to Christianity, every child (with or without the "gay gene"), is born into sin. Is that not a bit more powerful than the "genetic behavior" above? If indeed some very few percent are born into a genetic disposition towards a sinful (...) (23 years ago, 5-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Gay-o-meter (Was Re: gay by birth vs. gay by choice... who cares!)
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(...) Hmm. It gave me 41%. Perhaps it is calibrated from UK "Gayness". Scott A (...) (23 years ago, 5-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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(...) Amen, well spoken! /Tore (23 years ago, 5-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: gay by birth vs. gay by choice
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(...) I don't see how this relates to my post. You said that all of 4000 years of religious doctrine was correct (except possibly the gay genes). I argued that with the diversity of the various doctrines, it couldn't _all_ be correct. Fredrik (23 years ago, 5-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Opinion of the American Psychological Association (was: gay by birth vs. gay by choice)
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Here is something that is interesting (though I forgot where I found it): ===...=== The American Psychological Association released a Statement on Homosexuality in 1994-JUL. Their first two paragraphs are: The research on homosexuality is very (...) (23 years ago, 6-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Another interesting essay & how I found it (was: gay by birth vs. gay by choice)
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Here is the essay on Homosexauality: (URL) I don't agree with a lot of the conclusions drawn) & here is how I found it. A few months ago I found out about the Baha'i faith. The following principles of the Baha'i faith are why I researched it (...) (23 years ago, 6-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Another interesting essay & how I found it (was: gay by birth vs. gay by choice)
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(...) change (...) Thanks for that Carl, I enjoyed your post (although I've not read the follow up URLs yet) and tend to agree with your sentiment. The notion of choosing who you fancy seems absurd; I mean how many of us end up with the partners we (...) (23 years ago, 6-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Sex (was: gay by birth vs. gay by choice)
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(...) Not all of us should be incapable of reproduction. Obviously that would be bad. However, the ability to generate, attract, and/or use the assistance of those (whomever/however) who don't reproduce would be a valuable survival strategy. If (...) (23 years ago, 6-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: gay by birth vs. gay by choice
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(...) Even if it's just hearsay, can you tell me what you fear they might be? I hear things like the right to marry which is a pursuit of equality, not a special benefit. (...) I wouldn't fear such a lawsuit. I think it would be hard to penalize (...) (23 years ago, 6-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Another interesting essay & how I found it (was: gay by birth vs. gay by choice)
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(...) Not if they don't find out. The very nature of the "harm" that takes place -- that you have to know about it in order for it to hurt -- makes me question the validity of calling it harm. DaveE previously asserted that it would be bad for him (...) (23 years ago, 6-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Gay-o-meter (Was Re: gay by birth vs. gay by choice... who cares!)
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(...) So this is a metric gayometer, then :) (23 years ago, 6-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | Re: Another interesting essay & how I found it (was: gay by birth vs. gay by choice)
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(...) For contrast, here are some principals for Unitarian Universalism set with those of the Bahai faith: Unitarian Universalists commonly hold: (...) The inherent worth and dignity of all people. (UU pricipal #1) (...) Acceptance of one another (...) (23 years ago, 6-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Another interesting essay & how I found it (was: gay by birth vs. gay by choice)
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(...) I would certainly personally agree with the sentiment. Point was being that both acting homosexually AND wanting to cheat on a spouse are considered to be sinful acts by some sects of Christianity, regardless of who they hurt. IE, even if it (...) (23 years ago, 6-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Another interesting essay & how I found it (was: gay by birth vs. gay by choice)
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> The very nature of the "harm" that takes place -- that you have to know about (...) his (...) it's bad (...) Infidelities to do often come out in the end, and of course there is the possibility of you infecting the partner who is unaware of your (...) (23 years ago, 6-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Another interesting essay & how I found it (was: gay by birth vs. gay by choice)
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(...) I agree. Lying about such things goes against my aesthetic. Please don't miconstrue any of what I'm saying to suggest that I advocate 'cheating' on your spouse. I don't. But I'm still exploring the nature of morals (or what I and others think (...) (23 years ago, 8-Dec-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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