 | | Re: Break Out the Cristal (trickle-down economics explained with champagne!)
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(...) I think it more likely we would end up falling over ourselves to do back-door deals in order to avoid paying. ROSCO (22 years ago, 2-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Newspeak 2003
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(...) I read somewhere that it was only the (older) Tomahawk missiles that went astray, and when the problem was identified, the coalition immediately announced it's intention not to use them until it was resolved. The Cruise missiles and laser (...) (22 years ago, 2-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| |
| | The Role of Dissent
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|
I, doubtless like many of you, have been watching the news, reading online sources, and watching CSPAN (which is the recorded govt. in action of the U.S. and often of England too). Well, I was watching "Poodle" Blair yesterday and I got the idea (...) (22 years ago, 2-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Capsule summary?
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(...) The linked site is worth a look: (URL) A (22 years ago, 2-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Capsule summary?
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(URL) a bad job of flash (presumably) animation... I wouldn't count on it as an umbiased source of info though. (22 years ago, 2-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Break Out the Cristal (trickle-down economics explained with champagne!)
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(...) Relate it to GDP. That way everyone gives as much as they can afford... sort of like income tax. Scott A (22 years ago, 2-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Whose side are you on, anyway?
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(...) The whole report appears to be a statement of the obvious from analysts who are allegedly “linked” with the Russian military: ==+== Strikingly, the Russian analysts, whose work appears on the iraqwar.ru Web site, believe that U.S. and Allied (...) (22 years ago, 2-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Whose side are you on, anyway?
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More questions about the Russian role are raised in this UPI article: (URL) went to the iraqwar.ru site mentioned (URL) I did not see the information given but I wasn't looking very hard. Does anyone else? (22 years ago, 2-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Newspeak 2003
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(...) Heck no, I'd stick it on ebay. ;) (...) On what charge? (...) Indeed, cluster bomblets have a 16% failure rate; I wonder who'll come and collect them? Scott A (...) (22 years ago, 2-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Just Teasing, I Have No Intention of Debating Any of This...
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(...) from enother message: (...) I always believed that the 'merican sterotype (arrogant, ignorant, self centric), that every foreigner (to US) is familiar enough, is just a comically exaggerated unreality. At least I know too many american friends (...) (22 years ago, 2-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | stormtroopers? [Re: hearts and minds]
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On a not unrelated theme: (URL) A (22 years ago, 2-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Newspeak 2003
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(...) Tom, I know yourself as one of the most reasonable guys here, much more than most of the other guys here including myself. But Iwhat you are doing right now is trying to rationalize the things in a wrong way, I believe. Just imagine: Some (...) (22 years ago, 2-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | "Death to Yankees" and "Rosbeefs go home"
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Very sad: French plea as cemetery defaced (URL) violation of a burial place - scandalous in itself - is an attack on the memory of the sacrifice made by the British and American soldiers who contributed to the liberation of our soil," said the local (...) (22 years ago, 2-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Newspeak 2003
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(...) Hey, why not let China [et al] make a copy of a dud? ;) Scott A (22 years ago, 2-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | GPS JAMMERS
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(...) My understanding was that it was claimed GPS "jammers" made no impact. In fact, [IRC] it was claimed a GPS weapon was used to destroy them ... I only wonder why they were destroyed if they had no impact? ;) The best estimate I've read is that (...) (22 years ago, 2-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | hearts and minds
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(...) I don't blame the *allies* either. UK armed forces have been openly criticising "heavy handed" practices used by the US ground troops. Have a gander at this: British military critical of US troops' heavy-handed style with civilians (URL) (...) (22 years ago, 2-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: My Concession (for John mostly)
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(...) *IN RELATION* to what Dave said!!! "Recent evidence suggests that the Emperor was about to surrender." You keep taking it out of context and trying to assert your own argument in there. (...) "...about to surrender"??? Nope. (...) "...about to (...) (22 years ago, 2-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: My Concession (for John mostly)
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(...) Let me again state your assertion: "we had no way to know what Japan intended beyond its action (which were that the war was going to continue to the absolute bitter end)." 1. We knew *at least* that Hirohito had proposed a peace deal (albeit (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Break Out the Cristal (trickle-down economics explained with champagne!)
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(...) I was born in '67 so it was the '80's when I became a teenager. But I was set when some of my older cousins played 'Crime of the Century' when I was a kid. It was the first album I bought. My parents listened to John Denver (who I still like, (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Break Out the Cristal (trickle-down economics explained with champagne!)
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Argh! Correct you are... I'm thinking too much in the past, where we discussed Marillion for a bit. Of course, PF is also one of my longtime favorites - Marillion, Led Zepp, PF, RUSH, Peter Gabriel - those are what I listen to most, off the top of (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Newspeak 2003
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(...) Note - the word "hit" needs to be qualified here. Errant missiles have not made it to their targets, but they basically crash-landed. Tomahawks are not fully armed until just before reaching their targets, so errant missiles may cause small (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | It has been done before! :-O
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Yes, that's right! The war now raging in Iraq has a precedent... and noone talks about it! Otherwise, what exactly happened in Vietnam/Cambodja in 1979? Wasn't Cambodja "liberated" from the rule of a madman by Vietnam? And, irony of ironies, wasn't (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Break Out the Cristal (trickle-down economics explained with champagne!)
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(...) It is broken--that much you convinced me (though it didn't take too long a trip for me to see that...) But, again, just brainstorming here... Price per citizen, or any other scale of paying, tends to favour capitalist societies ("western"), (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Pigs... was Re: Break Out the Cristal (trickle-down economics explained with champagne!)
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(...) Two words, baby: Roger Waters. Three more words: Dogs of War (ugh!) David Gilmour is a swell guitarist, but as a lyricist (which is actually more my interest) he doesn't seem to convey the same oomph as Roger (though he can definitely run off (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Marillion.com, was Re: Break Out the Cristal (trickle-down economics explained with champagne!)
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(...) Arlo Guthrie? Steve Martin doing "Ramblin' Man"? Anything from "Dr Demento"? Supertramp (as I may have mentioned), Elton John, Journey, Michael W. Smith, Allison Kraus, Over the Rhine, and yes, I liked 'Genie in a bottle' by whazzername, (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Break Out the Cristal (trickle-down economics explained with champagne!)
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(...) Everyone pays whatever they want and then votes in direct proportion to how much they paid in order to decide what to do. So to implement the onion-vision all the US has to do is pay 51% (and that will work as long as the whole rest of the (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Pigs... was Re: Break Out the Cristal (trickle-down economics explained with champagne!)
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(...) Floyd-- wow. Why is "Animals" such an appreciated Floyd album and "Momentary Lapse" is not... That one makes me wonder.... Dave K (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Marillion.com, was Re: Break Out the Cristal (trickle-down economics explained with champagne!)
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(...) You described my tastes (well they';re actually a bit broader than that) so yes. Marillion is good stuff. I had a chance to see them live at The Chance in Poughkeepsie NY in the mid 80s... amazing show (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Break Out the Cristal (trickle-down economics explained with champagne!)
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(...) Is this 'payment' to a "revamped" UN dependant on number of citizens in the country? GNP? Or just a flat rate? What payment scale would you set up to a 'better' United Nations so that all countries would be represented fairly? (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Break Out the Cristal (trickle-down economics explained with champagne!)
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(...) Uh, I thought that was "Pigs, Three Different Ones" from Pink Floyd's animals? Dave! Bibble Babble Burble Brouhaha (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Newspeak 2003
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(...) Oh absolutely--if my friend was mean enuf to pick on someone, a la 'bullying', I woudn't hesitate to try and stop that particular fight. That said, usually my 'friend' in this particular instance isn't a huge bully, though sometimes I am (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Marillion.com, was Re: Break Out the Cristal (trickle-down economics explained with champagne!)
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(...) Is it good music? would a guy whose musical tastes include everything from Bach to Beatles, from Chopin to CCR appreciate Marillion? Just wondering. Goggled them and found their site--will do more research tonite. Dave K (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Break Out the Cristal (trickle-down economics explained with champagne!)
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(...) That's part of the original argument. If we don't get a vote unless we're paid up, we (and other nations as well) will be falling all over ourselves to pay up. ESPECIALLY if we get a 25% or so vote because of it. I think there are a lot of (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Newspeak 2003
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(...) I'm really touched that you said that. It means a lot to this American to hear you say so. And I mostly agree but did want to point out that if your friend was instead of taking on a bully, but were actively bullying an innocent victim, it (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Break Out the Cristal (trickle-down economics explained with champagne!)
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(...) One of the things I find amazing about .debate in general - that people like Larry and Richard can be at odds about so many things in life, yet both like Marillion (as do I) ;-) -- | Tom Stangl, Sun ONE Internet Technical Support, Sun (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Break Out the Cristal (trickle-down economics explained with champagne!)
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Larry Pieniazek wrote: <big snip>... (...) Uh, Lar, that may not be such a good idea - the US has a long history of failing to pay US dues. If the vote was based on current, true, paid-up dues, there would be many times when the US would have ZERO (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Newspeak 2003
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(...) Never assume that any overwhelming trend is due to ignorance. I don't know anyone who believes that Iraq was directly related to 9/11. Connected to terrorism yes, but not to that particular event. (...) Now this is downright herresy, Mike (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Newspeak 2003
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(...) Plain, collective dumbness. Pedro Silva (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Newspeak 2003
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(...) And if there was a democrat in the big chair, this wouldn't be happening right now, either, so, no, this war isn't 12 years in the making, it's Dubya's little fiasco that he started when he wanted to be president. If there were a war due to 12 (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Newspeak 2003
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(...) This is an easy one, when an organized military wearing the uniforms, and flags of the country they represent acts based on declared military intentions, that is "engagement". When men dressed as civilians feign surrender before they fire on a (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Newspeak 2003
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(...) If he kept going and took out the greater evil, Arafat the whole peace process would have a new spin on it. Scott (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Old news, but still relevant
|
|
"David Koudys" <dkoudys@redeemer.on.ca> wrote in message > Yea!!! (...) "O Lord. We beseech thee to bless thy Holy Handgrenade, that it may protect the righteous from the sharp pointy toothed beasts of the world. May your divine grace give us the (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Newspeak 2003
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(...) Mimicking U.S. foreign policy and strategies I was thinking that perhaps Iraq could invade Israel and "decapitate" the evil regime headed by known terrorist and war criminal Ariel Sharon. It all depends on one's perspective, doesn't it? -- (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Don’t you just hate the pinko US media?
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(...) Yeah, I go to CNN to read the propaganda and see what FOX's competition has to say about things. I go to the BBC for something approximating the truth. The real problem is how most americans just don't do ANY digging for the truth. If it's not (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Newspeak 2003
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(...) I think I read somewhere that the Russians claimed that the U.S. forces were just looking for an excuse as to why their overrated and expensive weapons were failing in their intended use. This excuse could give them good mileage when it comes (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Newspeak 2003
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|
(...) My Papa was at a 60th wedding anniversary on the weekend.. (60! wow!). It was for friends of the family--for us kids growing up, almost like godparents. Anyway, "Jim", husband of wife, Jean, was in the british forces during WW2 and was also (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Newspeak 2003
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(...) It makes about as much sense as the Palestinians asking that Saddam launch missiles (that he doesn't have) containing chemical weapons (that he doesn't have) at Israel, I guess... (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Newspeak 2003
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(...) Didn't some of those missiles (GPS guided) go awry while GPS jammers (sold and serviced by Russian companies, as it turns out... probably because they underbid the French) were being deployed? You can't fault the missiles directly for that. (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Old news, but still relevant
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(...) (URL) there was much rejoicing! Dave K - (URL) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Old news, but still relevant
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(URL) Dave! Proud LUGNET member since yesterday! (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Stating the obvious [or "HOME OF THE FREE: ARNETT JOINS MIRROR"]
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|
(...) <snip> (...) <snip> (...) Yup. April 1st, is strange times indeed. I might be wrong, this has an impressive scope for an April Fool's joke, but anything I see this morning gets a couple extra runs through the skeptisism filter. "I've always (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Newspeak 2003
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(...) I think my favourite thus far is that "He will use the WoMD that don't exist when the forces close in on him." How does that sentence make sense at all? Dave K (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Newspeak 2003
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|
(...) But they missed the intended country *very* precisely. Actually, I thought I heard that (at least some of) the missiles that hit Iran had been identified as Iraqi in origin. Can anyone verify this? Granted, even if true, the Iraqis only fired (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Newspeak 2003
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(...) No way! Are you saying that the word "terrorism" is misused to discredit the enemy? I am shocked! Another interesting term is "precision bombing". The US government has officially apologized to the Iranian government for US missiles hitting (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: My over-simplification of the anti-war movement
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|
(...) Hi Maggie..:-) Things are not pretty here. Although the "no to US troops" decision is mainly based on the usual misorganization of our government, it quite represents the public opinion about the whole mess. This opinion of course, has both (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: My Concession (for John mostly)
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|
(...) Yes, now that I was reminded that this debate was discussed earlier, and that there will probably be no 'official' consensus as to what Truman knew, we can only go by official accounts--Truman didn't know exactly what the emporer said or (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: My Concession (for John mostly)
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|
(...) They didn't accept the call for unconditional surrender, war was continuing. I'm not sure why you aren't getting it, and I'm kinda tired of having to repeat it. (...) Go back to what Dave wrote: "recent evidence suggests that the Emperor was (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: ...so much for winning hearts and minds. [was Re: Outrageous ...]
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Scott Arthur writes: <snip> can't comment on 'friendly fire'--Americans killed Canadians in same fashion in war games earlier... but this one-- (...) Was watching CNN all last night and this was the topic of concern-- (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: My Concession (for John mostly)
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(...) I agree, but I doubt he'll find the time to justify his argument. Scott A (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Stating the obvious [or "HOME OF THE FREE: ARNETT JOINS MIRROR"]
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|
Poor Mr Arnett; sacked for sating the obvious one day: Veteran reporter sacked over TV claims (URL) national TV network, NBC, fired Arnett after he granted an impromptu interview to Iraq's state-run television, during which he echoed widespread (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: My over-simplification of the anti-war movement
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(...) I agree with that. But hey, the Saudia Princes are a freedom loving bunch of guys; they need your support. ;) Scott A (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| |
| | Don’t you just hate the pinko US media?
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|
An interesting analysis of “patriotic” reporting the USA: Analysis: US media under fire (URL) like the retired Nato commander General Wesley Clark on CNN, argued that the Pentagon should have sent more troops to the Gulf, and perhaps waited longer (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| |
| | ...so much for winning hearts and minds. [was Re: Outrageous ...]
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|
(...) The evidence suggests that your servicemen are not even look at flags: 'The Yank opened up. He had absolutely no regard for human life.' (URL) Alex MacEwen, 25, Lance Corporal of Horse Steven Gerrard, 33, and Trooper Chris Finney, 18, were (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: My Concession (for John mostly)
|
|
(...) You asserted that "[japan's intentions] were that the war was going to continue to the absolute bitter end". What has that to do with US obligation to pause? (...) This may be your opinion, but again has nothing to do with your original (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: My Concession (for John mostly)
|
|
(...) Quite the contrary - see your quoted summary at the bottom. Japan had rejected the conditions of surrender (to whit, none) and the U.S. was under no obligation to pause in the war. In fact, it would have been a betrayal of the American people (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| |
| | Re: My Concession (for John mostly)
|
|
(...) This doesn't sound to me like a country whose intentions "were that the war was going to continue to the absolute bitter end" and Truman had full knowledge of it. --- begin quote --- July 1945 - Japan's peace messages Still, the messages from (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: My Concession (for John mostly)
|
|
(...) 1: I read the site before I posted, and for that matter I read the site the previous time this came up. You may wish to actually quote the exact passage that you are refering to, since what I read would seem to support me. 2: Unsupported (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| |
| | serious vulnerability present. all doomed. over.
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|
This was funny, coming from a well respected moderated vulnerability list :) FUT to off-topic.debate, if you want to talk about the contents :) ----- Forwarded message from "Security Experts, Liability Limited" <throwaway@dione.ids.pl> ----- (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| |
| | Re: My over-simplification of the anti-war movement
|
|
(...) I happen to stuble upon this message and while commenting on this war is normally out of my personal fasion, i would like to point out my observations on the anti-war movement. As Scott divided the protestors into groups, so will I: 1. Those (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| |
| | Re: My over-simplification of the anti-war movement
|
|
(...) Hi Selçuk! I'm glad to see you posting-- over the past few weeks I would sometimes think how it would be good to have someone from Turkey post with their take on this whole mess, and of course you were the obvious person I thought of! It's (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| |
| | Re: My Concession (for John mostly)
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|
(...) Larry and Pedro, You both touch a chord, I desperately want this war to be done with. I married, and am raising children in a Quaker home, and I am comfortable with pacifism. Richard Nixon was a Quaker. I am a pragmatist. I want a quick ending (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: My Concession (for John mostly)
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|
(...) Wrong. (URL) (which were that the war was going to (...) Wrong again. (...) Ah at last something approaching reality! 1 outta 3 aint bad. (...) Whatever you reckon. ROSCO (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: My Concession (for John mostly)
|
|
(...) Oh no! Not the "should we have dropped 'the bomb'" debate again?!? No, despite lame attempts at recent revisionism, we had no way to know what Japan intended beyond its action (which were that the war was going to continue to the absolute (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: My Concession (for John mostly)
|
|
Immediately before WW II, was Japan a straight out monarchy, or a constitutional monarchy? I don't think I have ever looked into that precise aspect of world history. If it were a flat out monarchy, then I'd agree that we have at least one or two (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: My Concession (for John mostly)
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|
(...) I'd say we pretty close to literally bombed Germany into submission also... (...) Whatever the truth is here, it certainly is a case of warring them into submission, and then going in and setting the groundwork for a respected, productive (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| |
| | Re: My over-simplification of the anti-war movement
|
|
Hi guys, a long time passed since I last posted anything here but be sure that I'm still lurking around. (...) Actually I still can't believe how "The Great American Startegy Makers" based their plans on such a stupid idea. I don't like my (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: My over-simplification of the anti-war movement
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|
(...) And even worse, this action sets a precedent for the above countries (along with India, Pakistan, etc, etc) to invade other countries (including US, UK, Australia, etc, etc), without international sanction, because they perceive a potential (...) (22 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: My Concession (for John mostly)
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(...) Maybe time to have it again then 8?) (URL) (22 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: My Concession (for John mostly)
|
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(...) Deja vu all over again. IIRC we had this debate already. I forget what the outcome was... but I don't recall that statement coming out a clear winner. (22 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: My Concession (for John mostly)
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(...) However, recent evidence suggests that the emporer was about to surrender, and that you yanks dropped the bomb to show the world your power. (...) Agreed Dave K (...) (22 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: My Concession (for John mostly)
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(...) Touche! Can we send them David Hasslehoff and call us even? Dave! (22 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: My Concession (for John mostly)
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(...) I assume that you are discounting the two blaringly obvious examples for a reason? Germany? Japan? The latter we did literally bomb into submission (WoMD, to add some irony). (...) That we have committed this far (foolishly) it would seem a (...) (22 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: My Concession (for John mostly)
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(...) I think it depends on how you spin the terms democracy and ideal. If you spin them the way I would, I'd say that Germany after WWII is an example. But they had sort of a democracy before. And I don't know about Japanese civics (except the (...) (22 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: My Concession (for John mostly)
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(...) An American defeat is not an option (1); but the victory may be Pyrrhic if this thing goes on through the Summer and/or with an ever increasing rate of casualties - in many ways, that could be even worse than a defeat. :-/ Pedro (1) - Really, (...) (22 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: My Concession (for John mostly)
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(...) We got Dezi Arnez out of the deal, can't be all bad... (22 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: My Concession (for John mostly)
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(...) One (somewhat) recent success story of US inteventionist warfare was the spectacular liberation of Cuba from the evil clutches of Spain. And look how well that turned out! Dave! (22 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: My Concession (for John mostly)
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(...) Agreed (...) <snip> (...) I'd like to discuss where Saddam would be if the 'willing' stopped their war now. He's been saying "God is on our side!" and if the willing stop, SH will be, well, I don't know where he'll be, but I feel that it won't (...) (22 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: My Concession (for John mostly)
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(...) Can you cite even one example of where this has happened before? Where else have we bombed people into accepting democracy? True, the absence of precedence doesn't make the occurrence of such a democracy impossible, but I would suggest the (...) (22 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: My Concession (for John mostly)
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(...) I'm not sure that's true. I think it's more of wanting to take the best next step from wherever you find yourself. Before the violence commenced, Larry thought the best step was not to start the violence. Now, given that we're going to be (...) (22 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: My over-simplification of the anti-war movement
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(...) Well, it is a simplification of things -- but the pro-peace movement also needs its own soundbite. "No blood for oil!" has been a kind of code for larger issues, obviously. Ignoring ethical concerns for now, longer-term I can't see the (...) (22 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: My Concession (for John mostly)
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(...) That's just being a pro-war accomplice after the fact. Sorry, no previous moral opposition gives anyone moral safety to now just go ahead and support this great evil. No one would delight in american defeat -- that's madness. I presume defeat (...) (22 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: My Concession (for John mostly)
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(...) Along those lines: (URL) opposed getting into this war but now that we're in it I want to win. Unlike some here, I suspect, who would delight in an American defeat. (22 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: My over-simplification of the anti-war movement
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(...) Maybe I'm getting my timeframe messed up, though I understand that bin Laden's particular beef is with the continued US military presence in the region (apparently greatly increased following Gulf War I). Dave! (22 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: My over-simplification of the anti-war movement
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Bruce Schlickbernd writes: <snip> (...) Watching CNN all weekend, except Sunday when I watched PBS, and the other political shows on NBC and CBS... Constant theme now--"We tried the fast approach, and were hopeing that (...) (22 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: My over-simplification of the anti-war movement
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(...) I can’t find a cite , but I thought the US bases dated back to WW2? Scott A (...) (22 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | In the name of freedom
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Iraq - In the shadow of war: backlash against human rights (URL) the military action by the USA, UK and their allies began in Iraq on 20 March, a backlash against certain human rights has been witnessed around the world. These include: * attacks on (...) (22 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: My over-simplification of the anti-war movement
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(...) I'm just not familiar enough with Blair to say, beyond I suspect he likes the idea of acting tough. Bush probably has several agendas, though the weight of each is unknown: Inherited hostility: The enemy of my father is my enemy. Though Bush (...) (22 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: My over-simplification of the anti-war movement
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(...) Interestingly, there *IS* an undeniable link between Saddam and the actions and al-Qaeda; bin Laden has explicitly stated that his motives derive in part from his disgust at the overbearing presence of US military in Saudia Arabia. Of course, (...) (22 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: My over-simplification of the anti-war movement
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(...) Don't you just love our freedom loving allies? Turkey: End sexual torture against women in custody! (URL) A (22 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: My over-simplification of the anti-war movement
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(...) Even that funded by Pakistan? (...) Me too. I'd love to hear what he has to say. Likewise for SH. Do you think Bush would want us to hear about their version of events? (...) Why just "to the United States and her citizens"? (...) Evidence? (...) (22 years ago, 31-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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