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(...) You are making the assumption that everyone knows that it is unsafe and that everyone knows how to have safe sex. Two major misconceptions. I'll give you an example: Catholic schools do not teach sex education. Yes you can make the arguement (...) (25 years ago, 2-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Do you really believe that the only way people (kids) learn about safe sex is through schools? I hardly pay attention during commercials and I see public health messages about safe sex from famous actors ALL the time. (...) I disagree. The (...) (25 years ago, 6-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | (canceled)
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(...) None of these diseases have infected, and will kill, a quarter of the people in many African countries. Why is almost everyone ignoring this fact? These people are the reason we should try to find a cure. I doubt many of them have access to (...) (25 years ago, 8-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I'm not ignoring it. I just don't (personally) think they figure into my own "how should the government that is funded by MY tax dollars spend my money" equation, at least not more prominently than those "in need" in the US. Which, of course, (...) (25 years ago, 8-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) in (...) First, I agree with Mike's post to a large extent. On the other hand, if we're to guide those nations into being good customer states, this might be a good investment. But my real point is that I've read that international healthcare (...) (25 years ago, 8-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I am apalled by this heartless attitude. How can you care so little for people who are suffering, just because they don't live in your country? The countries suffering the hardest can't afford to do medical research, and many of them are (...) (25 years ago, 8-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) True. We'll hear about it on the news. Chris (25 years ago, 8-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) So what you are saying is that you don't care that 250,000(1) people around the world get infected by HIV/AIDS every month? What makes you think that what goes on in other less developed parts of the world will not affect the USA? This is a (...) (25 years ago, 8-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Whoa, now wait just a minute. The US a CAUSE, simply because "action" (i.e. public money used to help develop drugs that the Private drug companies are profiting from) wasn't taken fast enough? Think that statement through a bit more. Africa (...) (25 years ago, 8-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) How can you say how much I care or not? I didn't address my personal caring for those people, I made a statement about how they rate in my priority system when I'm thinking about how I'd like for my government to spend the money it takes from (...) (25 years ago, 8-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Why does my own priorities about how my tax money should be spent have to do with whether or not I "care" about those people? Do I think its too bad that that many people get AIDS and will more than likely die from it? Yeah, I do. I also think (...) (25 years ago, 8-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) You mean something like "honest friendship with all who seek it, entangling alliances with none"? Now, who said that? ++Lar (25 years ago, 8-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) and (...) Thomas Jefferson said it in his innaugural address in 1801. (25 years ago, 9-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) How fortunate for you. I can think of 25 off the top of my head, but in actuality, its more like 75 that I personally knew. Of the first friends (20+) we made when we moved to NYC in 1982, there are four - FOUR - of us still alive. (...) I (...) (25 years ago, 9-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I'm not sure - is that a straw man or a red herring? But I'll comment on it anyway. People don't choose to get old. People choose to have unprotected sex, of whatever kind. People choose to share needles. Is there another major way that people (...) (25 years ago, 9-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) It was a rhetorical question, of course. You know I know who said it and I know you know I know. :-) ++lar (25 years ago, 9-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) still (...) And that's unfortunate indeed. But I don't think Mike was trying to get into a "more of my friends died" contest, merely trying to show that he has some familiarity with the pain and suffering the disease causes back when you were (...) (25 years ago, 9-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) And by saying you don't want our government to spend added money on finding a cure for a disease that is infecting millions of people in another country, it shows you don't hold nearly as much compassion for human life as you should. (...) (...) (25 years ago, 9-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Wow, thanks for passing moral judgement on my level of compassion based on my desire for fiscal responsibility. Aside from the fact that I could ask what qualifies you as one to set the level of acceptable compassion for human life (assuming (...) (25 years ago, 9-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Not getting into a "more of my friends died" contest. Mike was making the point that AIDS has only touched 1 person in his life and that he felt the diseases that touched the people in his life should receive funding before AIDS is funded. I (...) (25 years ago, 9-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) have (...) Cite please. It's certainly not the number one cause of death, I think that's heart disease. (24 % of all deaths?? I can't recall) Further, it's not the number one disease either. I'd put the common cold at the top of the disease (...) (25 years ago, 9-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes: [snip a bunch a debate bait] (...) Except that the incubation period for AIDS is 3-15 years. There are people who are only now discovering that they have AIDS. But I won't bother debating this with (...) (25 years ago, 10-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Who says you've *been* debating? Not me. What you've been doing is ducking. Let's be perfectly clear, you've decided to dodge discussion on what the appropriate funding level for research is in our mixed economy because you're convinced that (...) (25 years ago, 10-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I'm sorry, Ed, but I graduated from high school in 1988, that's 12 years ago. We knew then, in what you would probably call a backwater southern city (Nashville), that unprotected sex could end up killing you. So, imo and in my experience, (...) (25 years ago, 10-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I am genuinely curious: How can you be so sure that everyone in the world knows about this? Have you seen a report that stated every school district in the world teaches safe sex? And even if they do, what about private/religious schools, or (...) (25 years ago, 10-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) We're veering around, I think Mike and Ed and I are sparring about the US, where it's pretty hard to ignore the truth about how to catch it at this point, it being common knowledge. There may be remote parts of the world that haven't figured (...) (25 years ago, 10-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I could just say something like "so, I don't care about people in the other parts of the world." But that would make me heartless. Let me revise what I said to be limited to those in the US. I'd wager that even those in the US going to (...) (25 years ago, 10-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Should? (...) Uh? increased funding of anything requires more money...right? So the money either comes from increased revenues (taxes) or by taking it from other government programs. Where do you think it should come from? (...) of (...) (...) (25 years ago, 10-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | (canceled)
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(...) I'm ducking, yeah right. You have repeatedly made the statements in this thread that those who have AIDS should have known better and deserve their fate . Yet you neither acknowledge or deny my asertation of your stand. (...) Really, I'm (...) (25 years ago, 11-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) fate (...) Cite please. I never said precisely that. What I did say is that those who catch it NOW through their own poor choices should know better. I did not make the sweeping generalization you claim. I've never said that those who get it (...) (25 years ago, 11-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) ^^^^ (...) ^^^^^^ Oh, and one other thing, I'm more of a tenor than a bass. It's a BASEless accusation to charge me with having singing talent, as I cannot carry a tuna in a bucket, but I did manage to be in the choir for our HS production of (...) (25 years ago, 11-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Has the off-topic.pun group suddenly closed? This is the fifth note that I've just read with the sole (sorry, I couldn't resist) purpose of presenting puns. Chris (...) in (...) (25 years ago, 11-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes: [snip] (...) that (...) to (...) to (...) You'll get my answers once you have answered my question (which YOU have refused to answer and I am now asking now for the THIRD time) - Most AIDS victims (...) (25 years ago, 11-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I may be wrong, but I think Larry's answer to this question will be similar to mine. If I were to agree that we should be funding SS & Medicaid/Medicare at all (and for the most part I don't) I might agree that money spent on research to find (...) (25 years ago, 11-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) in (...) Leave it to a scaly Libertarian to carp!! And anytime you wanna slug it out, I'm ready for you. I'll snail you with my left hook. Don't be so conchy, you'll get the baiting of your life. Yea, I wrote bass, I meant viol. (25 years ago, 12-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) fund (...) That's a Hobson's choice, and a really unrealistic one to boot. But if it will get you to answer much more important questions, OK. Assuming those are the only two possible alternative answers (which they aren't, there are tons of (...) (25 years ago, 12-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I would go one step further. Venereal diseases have been around (and have been known about) for a lot longer than AIDS has been on the scene. Most are curable, some are not, and not all are limited in transmission to sexual contact. My point (...) (25 years ago, 12-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I've said that before, you could look it up. It's not exactly a quote as I believe the quote is more along the lines of: 'Then the LORD said to Cain, "Where is your brother Abel?" "I don't know," he replied. "Am I my brother's keeper?"' (NIV (...) (25 years ago, 12-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Unless you just read it for the "articles". Sarcasm, Larry. I was being sarcastic, hence the winking smiley after the statement. You could be no more religious than I could be an American. Can I surmise that the rest of my post was so (...) (25 years ago, 12-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) While I sort of agree with the general thrust here, there are two problems I can see - Most other STD have short incubation periods and obvious symptoms. SO one could have, in 1984, beleived oneself to be completely disease free and thus told (...) (25 years ago, 12-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) True, but there are still inherent risks with unprotected sex (including a dishonest partner "sure, honey, I'm clean"), and unless you're prepared to accept the responsibilities, wrap it up or put it away. (...) My point exactly, it's just (...) (25 years ago, 12-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Answered it 4 days ago, let me know when you have a chance to answer in turn... ++Lar (25 years ago, 15-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes: [snip] (...) that (...) Ah, Hobson's choice number one. I'll choose the LAR method - coin flip says - NO. However, your question (and your eternal preaching on this subject) makes the asumption (...) (25 years ago, 22-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Ummmm.... which lobbying groups are you talking about that do anything other than stuff money in politicians' and parties' campaign funds? I think its pretty clear that's what Larry was getting at, not talking about people (or groups) giving (...) (25 years ago, 23-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Mike Stanley wrote in message ... (...) economy (...) the (...) social (...) earmarking (...) other (...) (getting ready to duck and run) Another point to raise about the issue of lobbyists getting to decide how money gets spent: If one feels that (...) (25 years ago, 23-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Was that really a coin flip? I doubt it. I really truly believe (see your weaseling below) that you don't think people ever need to take responsibility for ANYTHING, even if they do know all the risks. Stating that there are unknown risks (...) (25 years ago, 23-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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I'm not sure why you two continue to intermittantly duke it out. Larry thinks you're an evil commie, and you think he's an evil...umm...I can't think of a good word...robber baron? (...) How so? (...) That's not really true. Obviously I agree with (...) (25 years ago, 24-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) engineer of the ME generation. :') (...) Simple, its not a black and white, yes or no, question. (...) It doesn't change a thing. A very simple example - if, according to you and LAR, people should "take (moral/financial) responsibility for (...) (25 years ago, 24-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) ED: My name is Lar, not LAR. By spelling it or capitalizing it in a way that I don't choose, you are trying to use a form of namecalling. You know better. people should "take (moral/financial) responsibility for things that they (...) (...) (25 years ago, 24-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Oh my gosh! Something that returned close to the original point! :-) This is not unreasonable - put the money were it will do the most good. Lots of times my wife and I decide we want a number of things and there isn't enough money to go (...) (25 years ago, 24-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Sorry if you were offended by the all caps Lar, didn't even realize I typed it that way (6:00a.m. pre-coffee). Give me a break, if I was going to name call, I'd do a whole lot better than that. :') (...) So in essence, you are saying that, (...) (25 years ago, 24-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) - (...) than (...) It was a coin flip. IMO, its not a yes/no, black/white question. (...) someone (...) Why is it weaseling to expect people to assume the responsibility for risks they did not know of? Did you know that Singapore (I think it (...) (25 years ago, 25-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Oh, OK, Thanks. :-) (...) Something that struck me while reading Ed's and Larry's responses to all this is that ultimately it's not a matter of need. We _DO_ take moral and financial responsibility for these things. If you sleep around, you (...) (25 years ago, 25-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) When I first read this I just knew (incorrectly) that it would end with something like "infringing on my trade dress." Oh well. Hey Lar, do you prefer Lar or Larry? (...) Wow. I'd heard that about NYC inhabitants, but...wow. European friends (...) (25 years ago, 25-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Does this mean that if you contracted a life-threatening illness, you would refuse any treatment that in large part resulted from animal testing? If not, why not? eric (25 years ago, 25-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Further, he must by definition be either a full vegetarian or a full cannibal, at least in principle. Dave! (25 years ago, 25-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) the (...) For research of course one can't use pure cost/benefit analysis. There has to be risk and potential analysis also. Also, some amount of basic research must continue, so that you don't purely allocate money by ranking all the possible (...) (25 years ago, 25-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) No, the research dollars will be spent where there is the *perception* of best return. Further, it may be simply be the perception of the best short-term return. And just to add to that, it may involve more resources than a single company can (...) (25 years ago, 25-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Christopher L. Weeks writes: [snip] (...) You lost me there - "To claim less is to give up something so valuable that I can't even approach why you might want to." I have no idea what the comment means. (...) some (...) (...) (25 years ago, 25-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Christopher L. Weeks writes: [snip] (...) a (...) Then you'll never understand the freedom of not owning a car, not having that responsibility. WHen I need a car, I rent one. But for the cost of car payments, NYC car (...) (25 years ago, 25-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) be (...) for (...) rare (...) And that is exactly when the government finally starting funding AIDS research - when Nancy Reagan's friend Rock Hudson got AIDS. (25 years ago, 25-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Say on, brother! I'm 29 and have never had a license, nor have I ever really wanted one. Regretably, circumstances will soon force me to sell out to The Man, but I've done just fine--and saved many dollars on insurance--without a car up to (...) (25 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) cabs (...) really (...) :-) Honestly, there is something romantic about the idea, just like there is about hiking the Appalachian Trail, which is something I'm working toward (but my car will be waiting for me that the end). And maybe for a (...) (25 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) No. (...) For two reasons. First, because the harm has already been done. I also assert that we should use the gains of the Nazi doctors. You can (rightly) claim that by being a consumer of that good, I'm reinforcing that behavior as (...) (25 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) other (...) I don't think so. By my above statements: I could be a full cannibal - but I'd also have to think that eating other animals was OK, just not as tasty. Or I could eat anything that I wanted to - people, veggies, beef, whatever - (...) (25 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Christopher L. Weeks writes: [snip] (...) Do you carry Credit Cards? :') (25 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Right, sorry about that. I mean that to give up ultimate responsibility for your own situation is essentially the same thing as volunteering for a kind of slavery. It's like saying that you're not capable of taking responsibility for your (...) (25 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) No longer, but that's another idealogical debate. :-) Chris (25 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Okay, but my point was that if you equate humans (of any group) with animals (also, presumably, of any group), then you would see no difference between eating people and eating "animals." Thus any meat consumption would be equivalent to eating (...) (25 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) But surely you don't have a problem with handling ABS?! Dave! (25 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Ok..into the fray I plunge: You have a point regarding promiscuous (spelling?) behavior, but I know someone who was raped when an intruder broke into her house. I'd hardly blame the victim in that case. I wholeheartedly disagree with your (...) (25 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Do you mean they're "responsible" because they happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time? Or "they're asking for it?" So if I start knifing people at random the next time I'm on the subway, it's somehow they're fault, at least (...) (25 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) that's (...) Right. And that is, in fact, what I believe. But I assumed by "full cannibal" you meant that I would eat human but no other meat. That idea can't be logically derived from what I wrote. Were I to resort to eating any animals (...) (25 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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(...) Chris's point, and I agree with it, is that the victim does have some responsibility. Perhaps they should have lived in a safer neighborhood. Perhaps they should have instituted a neighborhood watch. BUT, this minor responsibility doesn't (...) (25 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) think (...) accident. (...) I would never, under any circumstances, blame the victim of a rape - or any violent crime (it's not a violent crime if it was justified) - for the crime's committal. That's just not a viable or productive stance. On (...) (25 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Just to pursue this to a morbid conclusion, you would therefore have no compunctions against sexual relations with any animal you found suitably attractive, and you would likewise be as willing to donate an organ to any animal (antigen issues (...) (25 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | personal responsibility (was:Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) accident. (...) To say that one is "asking for it" asserts they desire that outcome. Few people desire to be raped or collided with by another automobile. On the other hand, they didn't desire the opposite enough to secure that outcome. Such (...) (25 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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OK, hopefully the kiddies are kept away from l.o-t.d (...) would (...) I would apply the same standards that I do to humans...we must both be willing and interested. There is nothing wrong with inter-species copulation when both (all?) parteners are (...) (25 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: personal responsibility (was:Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) So if I stomp on an infant or kill a sleeping person, they're still somehow responsible? Your assertion, after a fashion, amounts to "victims make themselves victims." (...) A tempting offer, but I must decline. However, by your previous (...) (25 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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(...) I think that there is a real inherent difference between eating human flesh and eating other animal flesh, because there is a difference between being Fully Animal, and Merely Animal. To explain: The fact that humans possess all of the basic (...) (25 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: personal responsibility (was:Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) In the case of the infant, where were the parents? In the case of the sleeping person, where are they sleeping, why didn't they sleep in a safer place? Why didn't they get a buddy to watch them? Sure, the necessary action to completely protect (...) (25 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: personal responsibility (was:Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) OK, you caught me. You found a loophole for which I'm not willing to stick to my guns. Infants, having not attained a reasonable measure of maturity and ability, don't count. Infants do not make themselves victims. OTOH, to some extent, the (...) (25 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: personal responsibility (was:Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) I agree completely! Unfortunately I didn't read your other post on this subject until after I'd posted my previous message, or I'd've addressed your points! (...) That's not my intent at all, and, since this is for all intents and purposes a (...) (25 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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I'm rearranging here and there, not to mislead, but to address things in the order that I chose... (...) If you expect to be flamed by me, guess again. First, you are expressing eloquently a very normal belief. It's wrong (at least for me), but I'm (...) (25 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: personal responsibility (was:Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) Heh. Not being *purposely* obtuse, though I was trying to extend your argument to (one of) its extreme conclusions. As I mentioned in a response to one of Frank's posts, I'm not comfortable with the latitude such words as "victim" and (...) (25 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: personal responsibility (was:Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) No. Of course not. You are equally (that is to say fully?) responsible in each instance. In neither case is your death or survival exactly your fault, but in both cases it was your responsibility to assure your safety. And it was the piano (...) (25 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: personal responsibility (was:Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) This is an interesting point to consider. What one needs to consider is that being involved in an incident is not what creates your responsibility for avoiding the risk. It just actuallizes the risk. The responsibility for avoiding the risk is (...) (25 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: personal responsibility (was:Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) Part of this was my error in blurring the relationship between "fault" and "responsibility." My feeling, though, is still that while we are primarily responsible for ourselves, we are also societally responsible for others. I don't think this (...) (25 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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(...) I do mostly agree with you - victims are rarely 100%, well...victims. Often some act of indiscretion or carelessness is a contributing factor, but...isn't that just the nature of life? I have a friend who just got 2 fingers ripped off in a (...) (25 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: personal responsibility (was:Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) I agree that the speeder was responsible for the accident, but while I can point to ways that your friend's behavior could have avoided it, I can claim that he shares responsibility. (I realize that this is not an argument against what you've (...) (25 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: personal responsibility (was:Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) True, but surely you realize that this is every bit as absurd as my infant- stomping example from my earlier post. He could have been driving a tank. He could have demolished every car driving over the hill. He could have posted a sentry at (...) (25 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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(...) I certainly didn't mean to suggest that I expected an imminent flame from you...I was merely acknowledging that some people following this thread will no doubt vehemently disagree with me. (...) I'm not sure that I follow your question...do (...) (25 years ago, 26-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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(...) being (...) I mean, why does the difference between being fully animal and being merely animal have anything to do with who should be able to victimize whom? (...) I think that murder "is an unfortuante part of the reality of this world" too. (...) (25 years ago, 27-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Personal Responsibility (was: Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) Well, I do think that people are victims. I just also think that they bear responsibility for their situations. And I largely think that people are victims because they don't see to it that they won't be. (...) Yes. And as such, people need to (...) (25 years ago, 27-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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(...) I'm still not sure that I follow you. My answer, if I understand the question correctly, is that I believe that it is a moral evil to kill animals gratuitously. (No doubt we'll find some common ground here, but disagree as to what exactly (...) (25 years ago, 27-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Personal Responsibility (was: Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) Agreed. (...) Yes, but life is a terribly complex and complicated thing. People must deal with their mistakes, but often it is not reasonable or right to make them 100% responsible. (...) Regarding Lego, unfortunatly, I have not made yet made (...) (25 years ago, 27-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Personal Responsibility (was: Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) It's hard for me to fault them too much, when the government (by your account) seems to have gone out of its way to make this happen. (...) He should have negotiated for a better employment contract. This scenario seems bizzarre in this land (...) (25 years ago, 27-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Vegetarianism etc. (was: Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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James, upon reading through your response to my last longish note on this it struck me that I was kind of beating the same topic, and that I sounded antagonistic to you as a religious person. While I disagree with you, and it makes it harder to (...) (25 years ago, 27-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Personal Responsibility (was: Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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James Simpson wrote in message ... (...) deal (...) 100% (...) Chris (and I) have never said that the "victim" is ever 100% responsible. We have just argued that the victim does have SOME responsibility. Thankfully North Carolina doesn't see it (...) (25 years ago, 27-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Personal Responsibility (was: Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) Agreed. (25 years ago, 28-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Vegetarianism etc. (was: Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) me (...) of (...) Christopher: I haven't been offended by how you have expressed your views; in fact, I enjoy a friendly clash of arms. (...) I believe that gratuitous killing includes killing for sport, but I'm not prepared to say that (...) (24 years ago, 30-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Vegetarianism etc. (was: Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) Correction to a poorly-worded statement; I meant to say: The afterlife will be a poorer place if it lacks animal life, but I believe that animals will be present. James (24 years ago, 30-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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(...) Fair enough. (...) Very honest. Very nice. :D eric (24 years ago, 30-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Vegetarianism etc. (was: Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) Why not do away witht the old testament then - as part of scripture, only - obviously it would retain historical value. (...) Uh...no. I misread and now feel foolish. :-) (Actually, yeah...yeah...that's the ticket, you can catch him at the (...) (24 years ago, 31-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Vegetarianism etc. (was: Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) Why not do away witht the old testament then - as part of scripture, only - obviously it would retain historical value. (...) Uh...no. I misread and now feel foolish. :-) (Actually, yeah...yeah...that's the ticket, you can catch him at the (...) (24 years ago, 31-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Vegetarianism etc. (was: Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) It still has enormous theological value; the difference is that it is now read and understood in light of our fuller understanding of God as compiled in the New Testament. (...) Ok...I concede the point that it was inconsistent to include (...) (24 years ago, 1-Jun-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Vegetarianism etc. (was: Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) you (...) Nope. I would chose the human option, but not because I believe that it is capable of experiencing a "Better existence." I'm familiar with it, I know it's OK, I'd go with the known over the unknown in this case (unless I had reason (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jun-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: The nature of being (was Aids, Vegetarianism etc.)
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(...) Even if rights were a fiction, I'd agree with you that to avoid causing suffering is better. But, fundamentally, from a bedrock philosophical basis, we have no ultimate way to condemn evil if creatures do not objectively have a right to (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jun-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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(...) Chris, I haven't been following this thread for the past week and I'm not caught up yet. I'm a little confused by the above paragraph. Are you vegan or lacto-ovo-vegetarian? It sounds like the latter to me, but I wanted to be sure. FYI, I've (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jun-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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(...) I had a professor in college who has made arragements to be buried six inches deep in a forest in VA. I know it doesn't have the same effect as your wishes but it sounds like its legal. -chris (24 years ago, 2-Jun-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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(...) Hmm.. What if you lightning subsequently sets fire to the woods where you're hypothetically dropped? Or if a landslide buries you? Burying and burning may be creepy, but cholera (for example) and the stench of rotting corpses trouble me, too. (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jun-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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(...) for (...) years. (...) milk (...) have (...) yet. (...) The latter. I think the line "I eat eggs and dairy..." really gives it away :-) (...) Good for you! I've toyed with following a vegan diet, but it's not a step that I'm ready to take for (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jun-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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(...) Well, I guess I won't care...I'll be dead. I mean, nothing's perfect. (...) I'm pretty sure that the stench of rotting corpses doesn't trouble vultures and heyenas; how about if you just let them have me instead of trying to do the work (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jun-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | vegetarians (was Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) That's what I thought, 'cept the sentance "I haven't eaten (except for trace amounts by mistake) the flesh, or derivatives, of an animal in six years." confused me a bit- IMO dairy is an animal derivative. Just checking. I noticed you're (...) (24 years ago, 5-Jun-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | Re: vegetarians (was Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) Oh, I wonder how I should have written that. I meant to be saying flesh-derivatives (like gelatin), not animal-derivatives. I certainly agree that dairy is an animal derivative. (...) Yeah, I've been to DC a few times and there are just a ton (...) (24 years ago, 5-Jun-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | Re: vegetarians (was Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) Yes, but some would argue that these are still by-products of the meat industry. Scott A (...) figure (...) I'm (...) (24 years ago, 5-Jun-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | Re: vegetarians (was Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) Hmmm. I just call everything I can't eat 'cow' (j/k). Flesh-derivative works for me. (...) WAMALUG had a dinner meeting at Harmony Cafe in Georgetown. Even the picky eaters were happy with the meal. It's one of my favorite places to eat here. (...) (24 years ago, 5-Jun-00, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | Re: vegetarians (was Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) Last time I was in DC (Thanksgiving for two weeks in '97) my friend and I were in an area near a college (we went on the metro) where there were little delis, tatoo and piercing places, used music shops, and a big (and interesting) gay and (...) (24 years ago, 6-Jun-00, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | Re: vegetarians (was Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) Ah... the venerable 'Food for Thought' on 1738 Connecticut Avenue in Dupont Circle. Sadly, gentrification(1) has taken hold in that area, and most of the landlords(2) raised the rents several times what they were. Food for Thought couldn't (...) (24 years ago, 6-Jun-00, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | Re: vegetarians (was Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) Yes! That's it. That place rocked! Actually that whole neighborhood was cool. Kind of like Clark and Belmont in Chicago...maybe all cities have a place like that. (...) :-( (...) That sounds likely, but I just don't remember. I'm pretty sure (...) (24 years ago, 6-Jun-00, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | Re: vegetarians (was Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) Not me. If you don't believe me, come to Michigan where we raise both beef cows and dairy cows and you will soon discover that milk from a beef cow tastes marginal at best and meat from a dairy cow is absolutely awful, tough and stringy and (...) (24 years ago, 6-Jun-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | Re: vegetarians (was Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) cows (...) I'm a northern Illinois farm boy (okey, flame the hell out of me <g>) and all our beef cattle were steers. I couldn't imagine anyone eating old cow carcasses. likewise, you don't get much dairy product from steers. Tom (24 years ago, 6-Jun-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | Re: vegetarians (was Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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(...) deserts are where it's at for me currently. my latest success was fake chocolate cheesecake that fooled some non-vegetarians. I also have this crazy dream of opening a diner(stainless steel and all) that serves typically diner food but all of (...) (24 years ago, 6-Jun-00, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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